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Gobbledygook Writing & Effective Writing

Joseph Walsh March 14, 2019 at 22:55 12800 views 59 comments
How do I avoid gobbledygook writing? What are some examples of famous philosophers with gobbledygook writing? I would like to know because my writing tends to come across that way.

Another point of discussion is: what is the most effective way to write possible?

Comments (59)

Terrapin Station March 14, 2019 at 23:03 #264939
In general:

Try to keep things as simple as you can while still expressing what you need to express.

Keep in mind that readers don't necessarily have the same background as you, the same views as you, and they might not define terms the same way that you do. So provide context, and provide definitions when useful.

Keep your writing logical and focused. Progress from a set of premises or a thesis to a conclusion via some logical progression. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the vein of a formal argument, but there should be at least an informal flow to it. Remove tangents that aren't necessary for the central argument. If your thesis incorporates even a handful of different issues, especially if there is controversy about some of them, consider breaking things up into separate papers/threads/comments.
Streetlight March 14, 2019 at 23:13 #264942
Write how you would speak to a room. The room is full of your friends who are mildly interested in what you have to say.
Baden March 15, 2019 at 00:11 #264967
Quoting Joseph Walsh
What are some examples of famous philosophers with gobbledygook writing?


Hegel. But he did it like a pro. Derrida has been accused of same.
Baden March 15, 2019 at 00:13 #264968
Quoting Joseph Walsh
what is the most effective way to write possible?


Read lots of good clear writing. You'll likely end up absorbing a lot of the positives of the style.
Joseph Walsh March 15, 2019 at 00:46 #264985
Reply to Terrapin Station So construct context over what you know?
Make logical structure?
Remove tangents?
And create smaller essays of a large controversy to break down ideas?
Joseph Walsh March 15, 2019 at 00:48 #264987
Reply to StreetlightX I need to get over a dislike of conversational writing. I am used to reading Hegel and Kant so my writing could be due to who I read. Perhaps I could overcome this by reading easier philosophers.
Joseph Walsh March 15, 2019 at 00:48 #264988
Reply to Baden Derrida looks like he is full of himself. haha
Joseph Walsh March 15, 2019 at 00:49 #264989
Reply to Baden You are what you eat.
petrichor March 15, 2019 at 01:46 #265008
Bertrand Russell demonstrates clear writing in his essays. No gobbledygook. One such essay:

link

Heidegger on the other hand...
Joseph Walsh March 15, 2019 at 01:47 #265010
I like sushi March 15, 2019 at 04:06 #265047
Heidegger and Derrida are the main two I’ve come across. Both use several pages to say something they could’ve said in one. I can kind of forgive Derrida though as he is actively looking at this very thing in his writing. I still think he did himself moe harm than good by purposefully trying to be obscure.
Terrapin Station March 15, 2019 at 10:37 #265096
One piece of advice often given to authors is "Write so that it would be understandable to a reasonably intelligent 10 year-old." Keeping that in mind can help you keep things relatively simple, straightforward and help you remember to explain things sufficiently.
Streetlight March 15, 2019 at 11:44 #265099
Quoting Joseph Walsh
I need to get over a dislike of conversational writing. I am used to reading Hegel and Kant so my writing could be due to who I read. Perhaps I could overcome this by reading easier philosophers.


No, don't lower your standards of reading so you can write better! The trick is to write about these very tough philosophers and what they say in a way that's clear and comprehensible: that's when you know you understand them - when you can 'translate' their terms into ones you have mastery over. Read the hard philosophers - make them easy(ier).
unenlightened March 15, 2019 at 12:08 #265104
What is Gobbledygook?

I would think it is any language one does not understand. In which case the paradigm speaker of Gobbledygook is the parrot. And all that is required to avoid parroting is rigorous honesty. Speak whereof you know and understand, and no gooks will gobble.
T Clark March 15, 2019 at 18:05 #265186
Reply to Joseph Walsh

Others have given a lot of good ideas.

  • I agree with @Terrapin Station and @StreetlightX - use everyday language to the extent you can. You don't really understand something until you can put it in your own words. Don't use jargon unless what you want to say can't be expressed otherwise.
  • As TS also said "provide context, and provide definitions when useful." It's amazing how far into a discussion you can get with disagreements primarily coming from differences in word definitions. Philosophers love to make up new words.
  • As you said, keep it relatively short unless it really needs to be long. I often just don't read a long Original Post if it's too long and I'm not specifically interested in the subject. You can lay out your primary argument in the OP and then add more as the discussion proceeds.
  • @Baden said to read lots of good clear writing. There is a lot of that here on the the forum. There is also some crap. If you write just like me, you'll win all your arguments and everyone will love you.
Jake March 15, 2019 at 18:15 #265187
Quoting Joseph Walsh
How do I avoid gobbledygook writing?


Wait, not so fast. Gobbledygook becomes logical once you realize how limited the medium really is, because to do otherwise is to transform the nexus of inescapable paradigms in to socially conscious vectors of imaginative spectral patterns consisting of the glorious random patterns of which nature has been constructed for billions of years during the period in which the nothing became the something while still retaining it's nothingness throughout.

Jake March 15, 2019 at 18:17 #265189
Quoting Joseph Walsh
Another point of discussion is: what is the most effective way to write possible?


Smile, nod and agree with whatever the reader wants to hear, while pretending to be a revolutionary revealing mysterious secrets.

god must be atheist August 17, 2019 at 21:08 #317038
Quoting Joseph Walsh
what is the most effective way to write possible?


avoid sentence structures with more than one predicate, especially if some of them mean nonsense, such as "what is the most effective way to write possible?"
god must be atheist August 17, 2019 at 21:12 #317041
Quoting petrichor
Bertrand Russell demonstrates clear writing in his essays. No gobbledygook. One such essay:

link

Heidegger on the other hand...



Russell's language rustles like freshly washed, starched and ironed ladies' summer dresses.

Heidegger's language holds high the dagger upon which your and my heads are spaked.
Magnus Anderson August 17, 2019 at 21:22 #317053
Just try not to be like Kant, Hegel, C. S. Peirce, Heidegger, Derrida, Lacan, Baudrillard and the like.
Baden August 17, 2019 at 21:56 #317067
Avoid the discussion of furniture.
Wheatley August 17, 2019 at 22:09 #317076
Quoting Joseph Walsh
How do I avoid gobbledygook writing?

Take English classes. And avoid taking classes on goblin language.
Deleted User August 17, 2019 at 22:33 #317085
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
S August 17, 2019 at 22:34 #317086
Reply to Joseph Walsh By writing more like me and less like someone like @Mww. Except when I'm doing a parody of someone like @Mww.

Famous masters of the arts of gobbledygook include Hegel, Heidegger, Derrida, and Kant.

What is the most effective way to write possible? Well, you start by finding the letter 'p' on your keyboard...
S August 17, 2019 at 22:39 #317088
Reply to unenlightened I disagree. I would think it is any language one does not understand. In which case the paradigm speaker of gobbledygook is the parrot.
fiveredapples December 12, 2019 at 20:51 #362272
Reply to Joseph Walsh May I recommend finding a professional philosopher whom to emulate. One of my favorite philosophers, when it comes to writing, is Jaegwon Kim.

My advice is to eschew philosophical jargon. I would even avoid somewhat sophisticated words (like "eschew". So, better would be: "I try to avoid philosophical jargon."). I try to write so a 10-year-old would understand everything I'm trying to get across, even the most sophisticated or nuanced ideas, which usually makes me rather verbose, but that's better than unclear. And, almost always, good writing requires editing after you've stepped away from what you've written for a day or two. You'd be surprised how quickly you'll dislike the way you've phrased things after you come back to it 24 hours later.
god must be atheist December 13, 2019 at 19:40 #362685
Reply to Joseph Walsh
To answer your question seriously: I agree with @Tim Wood and with @Fiveredapples.

I would only add one more idea: put your feet in your reader's shoes. You must always reflect, even during the writing process itself, on how informative your writing is. You must make sure that when you're leading the reader with your text, you don't make him take baby-steps if he is an adult, and you don't make her jump over huge gaps in your logic if she is not Albert Einstein. In other words, your writing must have a tempo of ideas introduced and connected, and made clear what the ideas and connections comprise.

In a way it is like having a continuity supervisor in the movie industry when they shoot footage (i.e. in your writing process) and later in the editors/ cutters room (when you re-read your text with the intention of correcting mistakes in it.)

In short: try to imagine you are your reader, and determine if your text makes proper sense or not.

I like sushi December 17, 2019 at 07:13 #363887
Reply to Joseph Walsh http://www.public-library.uk/ebooks/72/30.pdf
T Clark April 30, 2022 at 21:42 #688902
Quoting CraigAten
Thank you for sharing those ideas


Welcome to the forum.
Jackson April 30, 2022 at 23:48 #688959
Quoting Joseph Walsh
How do I avoid gobbledygook writing? What are some examples of famous philosophers with gobbledygook writing? I would like to know because my writing tends to come across that way.

Another point of discussion is: what is the most effective way to write possible?


Kant is a terrible writer. Hume and Descartes are good writers. Bertrand Russell is a good writer.
Jackson April 30, 2022 at 23:52 #688963
Quoting I like sushi
Heidegger and Derrida are the main two I’ve come across. Both use several pages to say something they could’ve said in one. I can kind of forgive Derrida though as he is actively looking at this very thing in his writing. I still think he did himself moe harm than good by purposefully trying to be obscure.


Derrida has some good ideas, but his writing and explication can be tedious.
Hillary May 01, 2022 at 00:17 #688973
Very informative is the dialog. It explicates the process of idea development and emphasizes the critique.
jgill May 01, 2022 at 00:34 #688977
Do not write sentences so long they become paragraphs. Be succinct and smile at the reader.
Hillary May 01, 2022 at 01:05 #689006
Take your reader by the hand and imagine her/him to be a friend. Once in a while address him/her as "dear reader". Make them part of the story, let them feel the cold, see the colors, understand the theories you use, meet the gods you describe, feel the struggle, and experience the storm and lightning. Give them a book that absorbs them and leaves left of the.a puddle of water only.
Jackson May 01, 2022 at 01:27 #689014
Quoting Hillary
Take your reader by the hand and imagine her/him to be a friend. Once in a while address him/her as "dear reader". Make them part of the story, let them feel the cold, see the colors, understand the theories you use, meet the gods you describe, feel the struggle, and experience the storm and lightning. Give them a book that absorbs them and leaves left of the.a puddle of water only.


I've seen writing manual mention that. Tell the reader where the argument is and where it is going.
Jackson May 01, 2022 at 01:28 #689015
Quoting jgill
Do not write sentences so long they become paragraphs.


Kant writes paragraph long sentences. At the end you can't remember what the point was.
jgill May 01, 2022 at 03:18 #689072
Quoting Jackson
Kant writes paragraph long sentences


There was a famous novelist who wrote this way in the 1960s I think. Can't recall is name.
ArmChairPhilosopher May 01, 2022 at 05:47 #689112
Quoting Joseph Walsh
Another point of discussion is: what is the most effective way to write possible?


In addition to the good advice by the other participants:

Know your audience!

Using termini technici can shorten and thus clarify a discussion among your peers who know those terms. It also can make your writing unreadable to a general audience.

Repeat yourself!

Don't fear repetition. Humans are not computers who remember a definition perfectly, once given. They have to familiarize with new ideas. The natural form of learning is by association with multiple examples. The pattern seeking function of our brains is forming the concept, not the definition. E.g.: how did you learn what a chair is? Have you been given a definition by which you compare objects and decide whether they fall into the "chair" category?

Employ test readers!

This is a bit of methodology. You don't know whether your writing is effective until you have tested it. Give it to some typical members of your target audience and listen to their critique. And not only that, test them. Have some questions prepared to test if they understood what you were saying.
Agent Smith May 01, 2022 at 05:49 #689113
Quoting Terrapin Station
Write so that it would be understandable to a reasonably intelligent 10 year-old.


:up: :clap: I'm currently reading a children's book on philosophy. The writing is incredibly clear and to the point. From what I can gather, it ain't easy.
Agent Smith May 01, 2022 at 06:01 #689120
Quoting Joseph Walsh
gobbledygook


While others have given valuable tips on how to wield a pen like a pro, I'm more interested in what some here identify as incoherent speech/writing which in your book is gobbledygook. That's the psychologist in me I guess - such speech/text are considered a hallmark of insanity.

Have you heard of the infinite monkey theorem? Maybe the entire human race is an experiment along those lines. If so, some of us are, by that very fact, going to spew out utter bullshit.

Try writing nonsense, it's not as easy as it looks which is telling as far as I'm concerned.

There's more that can be said but chew on that for the moment.

Agent Smith will be back with more (hopefully) interesting thoughts...
ArmChairPhilosopher May 01, 2022 at 06:32 #689139
Quoting Agent Smith
While others have given valuable tips on how to wield a pen like a pro, I'm more interested in what some here identify as incoherent speech/writing which in your book is gobbledygook. That's the psychologist in me I guess - such speech/text are considered a hallmark of insanity.


"As the ego cogito, subjectivity is the consciousness that represents something, relates this representation back to itself, and so gathers with itself."

Martin Heidegger
Agent Smith May 01, 2022 at 06:47 #689147
Quoting ArmChairPhilosopher
"As the ego cogito, subjectivity is the consciousness that represents something, relates this representation back to itself, and so gathers with itself."

Martin Heidegger


Muchas gracias for a sample of Heidegger. One needs to be extra cautious when diagnosing incoherence in translations though - much is lost in translation. Comic relief for you [math]\downarrow[/math]. The World's Worst Translator.



Martin Heidegger probably wrote for a select audience; perhaps he was taking the first few steps into uncharted territory: hic sunt dracones.
Hillary May 01, 2022 at 08:19 #689169
Reply to Jackson

Arguments are fucking boring! Who likes to argue? Instead, the reader likes juicy real-life examples and weird abstractions, presented in page-turning format. You gotta lure the reader into temptation and wonder, instead of making him yawn because if knowing where the story goes already after the first 10 pages (which would be a great bedtime story! It has it merit!).
ArmChairPhilosopher May 01, 2022 at 08:22 #689170
Quoting Agent Smith
Muchas gracias for a sample of Heidegger. One needs to be extra cautious when diagnosing incoherence in translations though - much is lost in translation.


I can assure you that he makes as much sense in German.
Hillary May 01, 2022 at 08:28 #689174
Reply to ArmChairPhilosopher

Not everyone agrees on that...
Agent Smith May 01, 2022 at 08:42 #689181
Quoting ArmChairPhilosopher
I can assure you that he makes as much sense in German.


Then 'tis time to study/analyze the German mind! Are Germans cuckoo? :chin: They seem to churn out one Nobel Laureate after another, confounding factors notwithstanding. Don't forget the Nobel Prize was established only in 1901.

[quote=Oscar Levant]There's a thin line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.[/quote]
ArmChairPhilosopher May 01, 2022 at 09:02 #689186
Quoting Agent Smith
Are Germans cuckoo? :chin:


Not all of them (though from my point of view, most people are normal). We have our share but by far not as many as the US has. We make up for the numbers with quality. Every now and then we have someone so crazy it exceeds all bounds.
T Clark May 01, 2022 at 15:31 #689313
Quoting Agent Smith
I'm currently reading a children's book on philosophy.


What's the name of the book?
Agent Smith May 01, 2022 at 15:39 #689318
T Clark May 01, 2022 at 15:46 #689323
Quoting Agent Smith
Philosophy A Visual Encyclopedia


Went on Libby library app, borrowed book, looked interesting, put it on list of gifts for next Christmas. What a world we live in now.

Thanks.
Agent Smith May 01, 2022 at 16:05 #689327
Quoting T Clark
Thanks


My pleasure.
bert1 May 01, 2022 at 21:47 #689447
Quoting Joseph Walsh
I would like to know because my writing tends to come across that way.


This is a good start. You're accepting responsibility for communication, and not blaming your reader for not understanding you. :)
jgill May 01, 2022 at 22:00 #689449
Quoting Agent Smith
I'm currently reading a children's book on philosophy


Post a few excerpts please. Looks interesting. :chin:
Agent Smith May 01, 2022 at 22:34 #689464
Quoting jgill
Post a few excerpts please. Looks interesting. :chin:


I can't. I'm using my cell phone; the book's on my laptop. I'll post some snippets from it when I next use my laptop.
Hillary May 01, 2022 at 23:00 #689469
Reply to Agent Smith

Is it about Sophie?
Hillary May 01, 2022 at 23:02 #689470
Quoting Agent Smith
Have you heard of the infinite monkey theorem?


What's your monkey business about?
Agent Smith May 01, 2022 at 23:12 #689475
Hillary May 01, 2022 at 23:15 #689478
Reply to Agent Smith

No offense AS! I read that, according to you, we might be young chimps and now that we might be monkeys. So, monkey business.
Agent Smith May 01, 2022 at 23:17 #689480
Quoting Hillary
No offense AS! I read that, according to you, we might be young chimps and now that we might be monkeys. So, monkey business.


:ok: