On Maturity
Oh Lord, where does one begin with such a concept...
It is taught from a young age that one ought to respect their elders. A grandmother could be a surrogate mother as the instinctual urge of motherhood never dissipates with age. Think about that for a second and think about maybe calling your grandmother...
On the other hand, a male becomes more sanguine and more or less risk-averse due to lower testosterone levels as one age's. Food and comfort become the priorities to be attained and maintained.
Out of the chaos of age and development some equilibrium has been found by the time a person approaches their later years.
My question is that why does Western society display a deficit in the process of respect and regard for their elders?
It is taught from a young age that one ought to respect their elders. A grandmother could be a surrogate mother as the instinctual urge of motherhood never dissipates with age. Think about that for a second and think about maybe calling your grandmother...
On the other hand, a male becomes more sanguine and more or less risk-averse due to lower testosterone levels as one age's. Food and comfort become the priorities to be attained and maintained.
Out of the chaos of age and development some equilibrium has been found by the time a person approaches their later years.
My question is that why does Western society display a deficit in the process of respect and regard for their elders?
Comments (122)
"My question is that why does Western society display a deficit in the process of respect and regard for their elders?"
Assuming what you've written is true, here are some possible reasons:
Yes; but, it is assumed that women never retire, only males do due to the above. Hence, isn't your comment distorted by male masculinity or it being diminished with age, to some extent?
This is a very Nazi-ish or at least Randian way of looking at society. What does that say about the educational system and mass media?
"Yes; but, it is assumed that women never retire, only males do due to the above. Hence, isn't your comment distorted by male masculinity or it being diminished with age, to some extent?"
I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are making between men and women. I think the reasons apply to both.
"This is a very Nazi-ish or at least Randian way of looking at society. What does that say about the educational system and mass media?"
I wasn't making a political statement. I was just enumerating some possible reasons for the disrespect for old people @wallows was discussing.
"My point was that if people really feel this way about the elderly, then there must be a lot of Nazi-esque themes in our society."
I'm not sure what that means. The reasons I listed are common, everyday motivations. Using a term like "nazi-esque" makes them seem more alien than they are. We should save comparisons to Nazism for special situations. Otherwise, we run out of words when something really bad happens.
Well, women are known in the field of ethics for their sense of care and compassion that is a somewhat inherent feature of women rather than men. I am only contesting your stipulated definition that seems to be guided by some masculine guiding principle or force.
I picked up on that, too. Makes me suspect he’s a Fox News watcher.
That's irrelevant, but his point is still valid. If you want to go way back then you could even call it a Spartan mindset.
For sure. Athenian vs. Spartan. Nazi vs. Liberal democracy. Asshole vs. Artist?
Yeah; but doesn't the state of being "mature", surpass or transcend those superficial divisions?
Well, I don't think it's a strictly either or situation. Maturity can manifest in wisdom, which is timeless and surpasses 'feelings' or intuitions.
Quoting Noah Te Stroete
Noah, you intensified a "deficit" of respect to "despising" the elderly. Wallows and T Clark didn't use terms close to "despising".
You’re right. My bad. But, I stand by EVERYTHING else I said.
Artists can't be assholes? Come now.
True enough, but it tends to be most intense during one's youth.
Quoting T Clark
A lot of resources are required to get a person from conception to age 21. Even more resources are needed to educate through the BA, MA, or PhD. Those resources were provided by the preceding generation (not just the parents). One can get a PhD in molecular biology because the molecular biology building and faculty and associated labs are in place.
The bulk of medical resources spent on the elderly, to pick on that one area, are applied during the last few months or last year of life. The reality of these terribly expensive last months is that the medical industry is heroically extracting as much money as possible from terminal conditions. When my 102 year-old father was in the hospital, the doctors were suggesting various (expensive) procedures they could do--all pointless. It was, bluntly, time for hospice care. Cancer patients with more or less terminal conditions are frequently given heroic surgery, chemo, and radiation for very little gain in quality life, and considerable discomfort. A good cancer can easily yield half a million dollars in income for a hospital (and all the good care providers involved).
The amount of money billed and collected during the last year of life is often more of a curse than a blessing. The elderly ought to be more resentful of the practice than they are.
Quoting Wallows
I am not sure they do. If you look at our various social problems--very inadequate housing for the poor, deteriorating schools, an underclass, environmental neglect (and abuse), food-borne illness (because food has too much fat, sugar, and non-nutritious additives in it) and so forth, it would appear that disrespect and low regard is an equal-opportunity problem.
That’s true. As someone on disability, I can attest to a general deficit of respect thrown my way. I’m sure @Wallows knows about this. Then again, I don’t think it would matter much even if I were gainfully employed. Like you said, disrespect is pandemic in our society.
You could be. I don't know what T Clark was like when he was 40. But he seems to be more of a Liberal/Athenian/Artist than leaning authoritarian/Spartan/Randian/Nazi.
Everybody here is a liberal Athenian, but you know, sometimes we just have to stomp on a few faces to get things done (sick joke).
How so? I'm not apt enough to see the merit to that conclusion.
Ehh, Wallows just feels old already. As if one were to give a fixed income living, house, and caring mother is enough for this bloke.
Every society on earth puts together reasonably flattering images of who, what, and how they are. The facts my not square with the reality.
In general, Anglo-American society (the one I am familiar with) has never extended much respect to the (absolutely or relatively) poor, the 'failure', the defeated, the minority, the deviant, the marginal, and so on. Respect has been reserved for those with property, wealth, success, the victor, the dominant class. My guess is that we (Anglo-Americans) are not all that unique. (Check out White Trash: The 400-Year Untold History of Class in America by Nancy Isenberg.)
It is understandable that in ghetto culture, "respect" is such a big issue. People who are residents of the various ghettos "don't get no respect" so have to be hyper alert to interpersonal signs of disrespect. A well-respected, financially secure, socially established person can afford to disregard personal slights.
Quoting Noah Te Stroete
Jawohl, mein guter Mann.
Say what?
Quoting Bitter Crank
You’re preaching to the white trash, former ghetto living choir. I know all about this.
— Wallows
Quoting Wallows
There's an apt for that.
It must be that I expressed myself inadequately.
What I mean is that it isn't just the elderly that are given minimal respect. Respect is conditional on having ample resources, because on one level, cash is what we respect. Nobody is going around disrespecting Michael Bloomberg, Warren Buffett, or Bill Gates--all three more or less elderly.
"On one level" because on other levels people use different standards. For instance, we may respect people on the basis of education, verbal facility, good looks (even in old age), and so on.
We all want respect, one way or another.
Yes, my good man.
On the whole of it, I don't think it boils down to class. See the movie, Being There for example.
Addlepated Chance Gardner is hardly a model we elderly want to emulate.
[Addlepated - confused, mixed up, eccentric]
Not really related to maturity; but, illustrative that a socioeconomic conception of a "class" upon which the concept of "maturity" or "respect" or "prestigiousness" is endowed, can be easily fooled by an idiot or con man or even gardener.
"Well, women are known in the field of ethics for their sense of care and compassion that is a somewhat inherent feature of women rather than men. I am only contesting your stipulated definition that seems to be guided by some masculine guiding principle or force."
Do you actually know any women? You should be careful about talking about their "inherent features." As for my "masculine guiding principle" .... Well, anyway. Tell me, how does me describing things to you that I've observed about people's feelings about old people turn into me endorsing those feelings?
That’s the mistake I made. My bad.
You mean you've never heard of confirmation bias?
I am very, very old. Do you know how I know that, BC? It's because I'm almost as old as you are.
As I think you know, I wasn't trying to put out a definitive listing of why people don't show respect for us old guys. I just wanted to lay out the kinds of feelings that might apply. They're not exotic feelings rising up like evil spirits out of the dark depths of our souls. They're just regular old human feelings. A little shameful, but, we are not responsible for our feelings, we're responsible for our behavior.
True. But where do you stand on beliefs? Are we responsible for them?
No other way, I see.
Huh?
Well, we must be responsible for our beliefs too, no?
Yes, we must reality test the truth aptness of our beliefs as the way we are.
Interesting. Could you expand on this?
"True. But where do you stand on beliefs? Are we responsible for them?"
We are responsible for our behavior. That's it. Ever. Always.
I believe that it can be done through reason and rationality. To ascertain the validity of beliefs as they present themselves uninhibitedly.
I think I agree. However, what about the white nationalist? As long as he treats people with respect he is not responsible for his hateful beliefs? Just an example.
"I think I agree. However, what about the white nationalist? As long as he treats people with respect he is not responsible for his hateful beliefs? Just an example."
Of course. Absolutely. Keeping in mind that speech is behavior.
Grandparents used to be part of the family unit and have an important role in bringing up their grandchildren. In many ways they do a better job at it than the actual parents. Perhaps their current lack of involvement helps to explain the deficiency of today's youth.
What I’d like to opint out is that in more stable countries (economically and historically stable) children have more freedoms, adn young adults hav more freedoms. They are less reliant upon their parents adn their parents are, generally speaking, more willing to let them go their own way. The thing with freedom is it comes with a price. The greater economic freedom seen in more “developed” (stable) countries means parents are not so reliant upon their children to nurse them in old age. In other countries parents woudl have multiple children because it used to be more common for half of them to die leaving them without anyone to look after them - or simply without a “family” regardless of the boon of financial support.
Old and young have been disrespected over time in roughly equal amounts I’d guess. The current era, teh post-industrial age, and the current age of communication/information, is expanding certain freedoms and we’re not yet able to see the price we’ve paid a societies and as a new singular human society (connected for the first time in our history on such a magnitude).
The next “-ism” to be played out in the politcal sphere could well be “ageism”. The sexism debate will never disappear (at least no time soon), but it does feel like it’s waning a little now having done it’s main job from the 60’s onwards. The differences between generations - as in their cultural perspectives - has certainly been stretched out like a concertina with greater distances seemingly increasing more and more. At the same time we have to hit a point where we have no choice but to become awake to these changes because they cannot be willfully ignored forever. As we come to terms with this I think we’ll become more forgiving of what seem like so-called “dated” or “old-fashioned” ideas. Perhaps we’ll willfully try to revive some ideas that currently seem dusty and out of place in todays ever exponentially changing world?
As for what “maturity” means? Not a lot to me really. If someone is open to different points of view wihtout feeling the need to constantly pile on hostility then I’d guess this is what people call “maturity.” Everyone is different, but there is certainly something to be said for life experience over base intellectual capacities - an ol uneducated fool is probably more worthwhile listening to than some universoty intellectual in their 20’s, simply because they are living time-capsules. I’s also say that growing old, even from 16 years to 20 is worth attention. We do change and if we can appreciate how we do change honestly we can then come to respect the possible changes even older people have seen and gone through. That is invaliable information that can be readily mined simply by talking to both older AND younger people.
There is value to all ages. Some information gathered from each age group is inevitably more valuable than the other in some areas. Interacting with children is hugely beneficial in understanding both your own history and that of others that come before you.
One thing that occurs to me here is the question of where it is harder to appreciate younger or older people? At what stages in our lives does appreciation for each arbitrary age grouping wax or wane more?
I’ve no idea where you live, but things have changed a bit. Where I live Grandparents are now the unpaid careers of their grandchildren. In some cases they’re more involved with the children than their parents.
There’s a bit of generalisation going on here and the posts seems to conflate elderly with maturity. But not all of the elderly are the same, even though they all look old. Some elderly people don’t treat others with respect, or they haven’t aged well, or they have never matured.
The generalised treatment of the elderly seems to me to be similar to the generalisation of teenagers. What is there about the two that’s similar?
In times of stability, the wisdom of the old is a valuable resource, but in times of rapid change, the wisdom of the old is more so out of date and thus foolishness.
In times of chaos, the only wisdom is neither old nor young and is not founded on knowledge at all, but on applied ignorance.
Yep, agreed. This issue goes to the heart of our culture. (And exposes its weaknesses, imho).
What is that line from the movie Pretty Woman? “They aren’t nice to people... they’re nice to credit cards”. If someone has amassed a fortune, they are almost guaranteed a best seller if they write a book. As though every word from a millionaire is pure golden wisdom that will sink into the reader’s brain and guide them on the path to success. The prosperity Gospel, either religious and secular.
However, I can see why people want the top of the mountain, the brass ring. Middle class and the Middle way may appear decimated and desolate. A balanced “give-and-take” approach (to respect, support, work, etc.) may appear outdated. The extremes are now (supposedly or at least seemingly) where the action is. It is the gambling, risk-everything mindset that is so prevalent that it is almost invisible. We are in the decade of desperate measures.
But this, I would propose, might simply be the cumulative effect of advertising (ie propaganda), and have about as much substance as a glittering Las Vegas sign.
:up: Yes. And I would say that whatever amount of wisdom a person has managed to cultivate, has been hard won, has been acquired by swimming against the stream, so to speak. Sometimes, it seems that wisdom has been driven underground, scattered to the winds. I would dearly like to believe that our culture (as a whole, if one can imagine it to be a singular entity) is even trying to follow the “way of wisdom”. However, it seems “the path of power” is the broad freeway that our culture is cruising on. For example, the message of Christ being co-opted (perverted is probably a more accurate term) to be the sanctified and divine right of Eminent Domain, which now encompasses the entire world... and beyond.
Fictional characters can perhaps help one visualize the scenario. I imagine Obi-Won Kenobi sneaking through the Death Star, having less of a chance than David did against Goliath in his attempt to throw a monkey wrench into the machine. Frodo and Sam going into hellish Mordor, climbing Mount Doom to destroy the ring of power. Or as Jesus said, “I am sending you like lambs into a pack of wolves. So be as wise as snakes and as innocent as doves.”
One could think of the figure of Santa Claus (apart from the obvious Christmas connotations) to be a kind of ideal older man. Generous, jolly, wise, and relatively healthy... if perhaps a tad chunky. As opposed to the archetypes of Ebineezer Scrooge, Mr. Potter (from “It’s a Wonderful Life”), and Montgomery Burns (from The Simpsons). These cautionary (and occasionally darkly comic) characters represent the bitter and greedy shell of a person that one probably would rather avoid dealing with or turning into.
I have a lot of respect for the elderly. It doesn't phase me if the person came from the upper echelons of society or even how they got so old. Every elderly person has some wisdom to share in my humble opinion.
Think about the fact that not all grandmothers fit the stereotype of a kind and mothering old lady.
Quoting Wallows
Respect should be given when it is deserved, irrespective of age.
Oh, OK. What's your point?
Quoting S
Same question.
That you're biased in favour of the elderly due to a stereotype.
Quoting Wallows
The point was selfexplanatory.
See my comment here: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/264268
Yes, that's another example of what I said. And?
You're biased in favour of the elderly, and I should care about that because...?
Example of being biased towards the elderly or what?
Sorry, but what's your point here beyond expressing your biased admiration of the elderly? Is there one? Or is that it? If it's that we should follow suit, then no. I decline.
Well, I don't see how you can be pejorative towards the elderly. Maybe it's true that not all old people are mature, so I guess you can be happy in some strange sense about that.
I try to avoid making those kind of generalisations about the elderly, the youthful, men, women, gay people, black people...
Good for you. :blush:
Yes, it really is. You should take a leaf out of my book.
Haha, me me me. Me too!
Respect your elder. I am older and wiser than you.
And better looking.
Gosh, but the thread police are strict 'round these parts. Good thing you weren't caught with a dangling participle. Just remember that you have the right to remain silent until you speak to your lawyer. :zip:
Me myself and I!
It's good to see you round these parts. :blush:
My three favourite words. They sound better coming from me.
Haha, but it isn't all about you, dummy, haha! Be more mature.
Thanks sonny! But you're gonna have to speak up. Can't hear you cuz of the TV... ( sorry, bad grampa joke)
Tell me one of yer stories Pops. When you were all young and handsome. :cool:
Nothing in excess. Maturity has its place, as does humour, as does wit. I like to spice things up with a combination of the aforementioned. Only a dummy would confuse which is which.
I thought your jokes didn't need so much explaining. Gosh...
What jokes? I really am better looking.
Oh, okay. Whatever floats your boat.
Do you know what really floats my boat? Me, myself and I.
A rising tide lifts all boats.
Sorry, can't remember that far back. Also can't remember what this thread is about. I recall it being rather interesting...
Just look at Tony Soprano's mother -- one wicked old hag.
or sinks them.
Not yours. Yours is sinking. And you're too busy wallowing around to do anything about it. :grin:
Hey! Do you mind? I'm trying to be smartarse here? How dare you try to steal my spotlight. Respect your younger!
It must be Alzheimer's. Did you take your daily dose of fish oil, pops?
You can't sink a ship twice.
I got over it, like I did of your selfish, egotistical, and highly immature comments. Hah! :blush:
Hehe, good call. :eyes:
Not Alzheimers. But I'm definitely demented. As for fish oil, I eat fish alive, raw and wiggly just like Gollum. I got a taste for it when I was waiting to be rescued from the Titanic.
You see overcoming prejudice in that way? Gosh.
Very, very old. I am a reincarnation of wisdom itself, which is very old indeed.
Too busy wallowing...
Wallow wallow. :blush:
That's alright, you carry on. I'll save the day as usual. No need for alarm, it's only a sinking ship.
And no, you can forget "women and children first". It's every man for himself. Of course, by save the day, I meant save myself. Same difference as far as I'm concerned.
Wallow wallow...
Yes, the ship is sunk.
Wallow wallow...
Good to know my torpedoes are in working order.
Wallow wallow.
Did you feed the cat?
Meow meow.
No, but I fed the me.
Me, me, me, me, me...
Poor cat.
Wallow meow....
Hey, do you remember that time I pointed a gun at my cat in real life? Good times. :lol:
Yes, it was a sad day.
Wallow wallow.
Not for me it wasn't. I make me laugh.
Go feed the cat.
Wallow wallow ...
It's round my mum's. And I'm too busy wallowing. Except I wallow differently. My wallowing involves making light of everything. It's my coping mechanism.
Oh, like setting the world on fire...
Wallow wallow...
Yes, starting with my cat. Then I'm coming for you. :fire:
Poor cat!
Wallow wallow...
Poor me.
Another drink.
It's fine.
Wallows perfunctorily...
:up:
Perhaps this can explain a bit
Brain Maturity Extends Well Beyond Teen Years
"Under most laws, young people are recognized as adults at age 18. But emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25. Guest host Tony Cox discusses the research and its implications with Sandra Aamodt, neuroscientist and co-author of the book Welcome to Your Child's Brain...."
More:https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164708