Are pantheistic/panpsychistic views in contradicition with laws of physics?
[quote=Wikipedia]Panpsychism is the philosophical view held by many pantheists that consciousness, mind, or soul is a universal feature of all things.[/quote]
I find this a really interesting position, albeit there exist no proof or even hints pointing towards such a reality, like most problems revolving around consciousness and in the realm of metaphysics.
But anyways, it does seem like a logical conclusion once you acknowledge that qualia simply has to be fundamental and cannot be an emergent phenomenon.
If we call this a 'soul' (for the lack of a better term), the experiencer, then it follows that it has be something that is atomic or indivisible, the physicalility of a qualia-experiencing "thing" being divisible seems inconceivable to me.
If its splittable then what part of it is "me"? "both parts" cannot be true since one would be having subjective experience from two different agents, which could be spatially separated, which is unphysical.
But in physics, space-time is continuous (as far as we can tell), so is energy , there is no minimum possible quantity for energy (photon energy can be made arbitrarily low). All of this pointing towards infinitesimal divisibility of fundamental entities.
So what really is our soul, if you assume the panpsychist view?
I find this a really interesting position, albeit there exist no proof or even hints pointing towards such a reality, like most problems revolving around consciousness and in the realm of metaphysics.
But anyways, it does seem like a logical conclusion once you acknowledge that qualia simply has to be fundamental and cannot be an emergent phenomenon.
If we call this a 'soul' (for the lack of a better term), the experiencer, then it follows that it has be something that is atomic or indivisible, the physicalility of a qualia-experiencing "thing" being divisible seems inconceivable to me.
If its splittable then what part of it is "me"? "both parts" cannot be true since one would be having subjective experience from two different agents, which could be spatially separated, which is unphysical.
But in physics, space-time is continuous (as far as we can tell), so is energy , there is no minimum possible quantity for energy (photon energy can be made arbitrarily low). All of this pointing towards infinitesimal divisibility of fundamental entities.
So what really is our soul, if you assume the panpsychist view?
Comments (35)
My hunch/thesis is that no single thing is "really" anything at all. Or we can say that there are limits to the utility of thinking in that direction.
I feel like he's getting at something like the [s]Being[/s] of beings. "There is a there there." Or (Parmenides) "[It] is."
This does not contradict physics whatsoever. If all of the universe was born from the Big Bang, then so was consciousness; it was implanted within the original fabric of the universe and therefore since it arose within us and many other animals, it shows that consciousness is pervasive.
It is not limited to us alone and that is what the soul truly is: the nothing that we are all connected but somehow hold something unique that we have to share because we are just ever expanding an ever expanding universal whole.
Why do qualia have to be "fundamental", particularly as the human brain is the only object in the universe known to possess them?
Your claim that qualia cannot be emergent does not seem to tally with the observation that they can be affected by tampering with the physical substrate from which they emerge.
You mean despite the fact that the Free Will Theorem demonstrates that free will does not require consciousness?
What do you think a relativistic spin 1 particle might be conscious of?
Now, what do you think photons are conscious of?
No, it's not. It's an invalid inference. "Consciousness is not required for freedom" cannot be derived from "particles possess freedom". You can't derive a conclusion from a single premise unless that conclusion is contained in the premise (which it evidently isn't in this case). You need as an additional premise "particles are not conscious".
There's me hoping that you were going to argue that particles must be emotional because the Free Will theorem did not claim they were *not* emotional and that an extra premise was needed.
I'm glad however, that you agree that relativistic particles - i.e. entities that cannot experience anything including the passage of time - cannot possess mental states.
So, according to the laws of physics, photons cannot possess consciousness, though they (if humans do) may possess a modicum of freedom.
But of course, panpsychism could only apply to matter particles...
What law(s) prohibit(s) photons from possessing consciousness?
Then it should be very easy for you to write a valid deduction that demonstrates that. Yet despite repeated requests, you have not done that.
I assume you are aware that 'Well then show me how P could be true!' is not a deduction of not-P. If it were, Goldbach's conjecture and most other unsolved conjectures of mathematics would be solved.
You define what a mental state is, and I'll show you why the photon cannot possess it. Deal?
How could you know that something could not be possessed by something else if you don't know what the "something" is?
Anyway, despite the accusations to the contrary, I have already explained why the photon cannot experience anything. I have also stated that this explanation does not extend to particles with mass. Thus panpsychism can be recovered if you are that desperate.
However, I am curious about the implications of indistinguishability on the assumption that massive particles possess consciousness.
Not in this thread you haven't - despite repeated requests that you do so. If you've explained it somewhere else, a link would be helpful.
I'm a panpsychist and you raise some interesting points in your OP. However I'm not clear from your OP how exactly panpsychism seems in contradiction with the laws of physics. Please could you spell it out? I tried to put it in my own words (the bit about indivisibility of consciousness) from your OP but couldn't.
Quoting Weeknd
From my panpsychist point of view it is reality-as-continuum (as opposed to reality as plurality of discrete bits) that is the experiencer.
What does "reality-as-contunuum" mean?
Intuitively, space is the nearest physical concept I have. I'm not sure but perhaps quantum field or some other concept like that would do just as well or better. I'm happy to use the philosophical concept of substance as well but I know many don't like that concept. I share the OP's intuition that only something indivisible or continuous can be conscious. It seems to me to simply follow from the phenomenology. Any experience involves the unification of a number of different elements. And when I look in nature for something that can accomplish this binding of the various elements of an experience, it is immediately obvious that any appeal to a complex entity (such as a brain) begs the question because that entity itself is constituted of parts. So when I think about what relates all the parts of a brain together, again I fairly quickly see that ultimately it is the space that the brain occupies, or the field that it is a behaviour of, or the substance that it is a modification of, that unifies all its elements. And so when looking for the correct place for consciousness in nature, it must be at this very fundamental level of the unifying continuum.
What about time?
I think time is more about reality-as-discontinuum. In time one thing happens after another, change and differentiation is essential for time. By contrast with space, I can't make sense of the idea of time as the experiencer.
Anyhow, my ideas sort of align with @bert1's . Anyone interested to read more on this subject, have a look at this aeon article - https://aeon.co/essays/how-consciousness-works-and-why-we-believe-in-ghosts