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Interest in reading group for a classic in the philosophy of language?

The Great Whatever September 06, 2016 at 01:22 17100 views 51 comments
This might be a bit of a stretch, but I was wondering if anyone would be interested in reading a key text in the philosophy of language together. I've been trying to better acquaint myself with the classics, but there aren't many people around who would be appropriate to discuss one in depth with.

It could be either analytic or continental, but preferably something from Frege/Husserl onward, and preferably something a little difficult or technical, that would benefit from a reading group, to work through the text on its own terms and not just as a ground for opinions and arguments and so on.

Some examples might be things like:

-Quine's Word and Object
-Chomsky's Aspects of the Theory of Syntax
-Derrida's Speech and Phenomena
-Austin's How to Do Things With Words
-Evans' The Varieties of Reference

Just suggestions, I'm open to whatever, as long as it's a 'key' text (whatever you take that to mean: no monograph published last year about Merleau-Ponty's critique of Heidegger or something like that), and not Naming and Necessity.

Comments (51)

Pneumenon September 06, 2016 at 02:07 #19570
Frege's On Sense and Reference would be good. I'd also be interested in anything else in a similar vein.
Pierre-Normand September 06, 2016 at 02:40 #19576
Reply to Pneumenon Quoting Pneumenon
Frege's On Sense and Reference would be good. I'd also be interested in anything else in a similar vein.


Evans' The Varieties of Reference, already mentioned, belongs downstream in the same vein; so does David Wiggins' paper The Sense and Reference of Predicates: A Running Repair to Frege's Doctrine and a Plea for the Copula.
Deleteduserrc September 06, 2016 at 03:01 #19577
I'd be interested - I don't know how much insight I'd be able to offer, but I think I'd benefit from it. I'd read whatever others are most interested in. I guess, of those you've mentioned, I'd be most interested in Quine, Chomsky or Derrida.
Streetlight September 06, 2016 at 05:24 #19586
I may or may not chime in with Word and Object, How to Do Things With Words, or Speech and Phenomena, if we end up doing one of those. Got alot on my plate but I'm at least familiar with those. Varieties of Reference might be a bit too big a book for an online reading group, I think.
The Great Whatever September 06, 2016 at 09:49 #19602
Reply to Pneumenon I'd prefer not to do Sense and Reference because one, I think probably people will be overly familiar with it (I'm sick to death of it myself), and because I think it's too short to warrant a reading group. It seems like more of a one-time discussion sort of thing.

If it was Word and Object, I have skimmed it and so am familiar with its overarching structure, and think it would deb possible to just go through a chapter of it each week, making the group as a whole last seven weeks. I'm less familiar with the structure of S&P, so we'd have to work it out some other way.

In any case those listed above are just suggestions: if there's something else someone has always wanted to read, or already has read and is interested in commenting on in depth, that would be good too.
Pneumenon September 06, 2016 at 21:56 #19693
Reply to The Great Whatever I would gladly do Word and Object. I have not read it, but I have a passing acquaintance with Quine that ought to be deeper.
Moliere September 06, 2016 at 21:59 #19694
I'd be interested in joining in. Of those listed I'd be down, though I think I'd chime in a favorable opinion of "Doing Things with Words"
Marty September 07, 2016 at 21:07 #19859
I'd read Derrida's Speech and Phenomena. I've been meaning to get into Derrida more recently, and it's a great text that usually serves as a introduction to him. Although, I doubt I have much stake in the matter.
The Great Whatever September 08, 2016 at 05:49 #19908
It looks like Quine & Derrida are the most popular choices. Of the folks who could go either way, is there a preference?
Pierre-Normand September 08, 2016 at 07:15 #19911
I have much more familiarity with Quine but stand to learn more from Derrida. So, I am leaning toward Derrida.
shmik September 08, 2016 at 12:33 #19963
Reply to The Great Whatever Just curious, if anyone's familiar with the Derrida, how much knowledge of Husserl is necessary?
Moliere September 08, 2016 at 12:56 #19967
Of those two I'd opt for Derrida.
Streetlight September 08, 2016 at 13:13 #19974
Reply to shmik Not a great deal. At least, Derrida is quite clear in his exposition.

If you want to have the best of both words, do Austin's How To Do Things With Words, then Derrida's essay "Signature, Event, Context", which is a reading of that essay.
shmik September 08, 2016 at 14:01 #19982
Deleteduserrc September 08, 2016 at 19:30 #20020
Derrida's cool w/ me too
shmik September 09, 2016 at 03:26 #20101
I probably wont be able to participate much as I have my honors thesis due in 2 months but I'll keep track of what's going on.

If people decide on Derrida and anyone has trouble finding a copy, the in-print translation of the text is titled 'Voice and Phenomenon' rather than 'Speech and Phenomena'.
Streetlight September 09, 2016 at 03:36 #20102
Basically there are two translations, the older one being 'Speech' and the newer one being 'Voice', which more appropriately corresponds to the French voix, which is the original title. So if you can get your hands on the new one (tran. Leonard Lawlor), do so. Otherwise, hit me up. Assuming Derrida is a go.
Deleteduserrc September 09, 2016 at 03:53 #20103
I browsed the introduction to Speech & Phenomena at work today. It seems much less pose-y than most of his stuff and really dovetails nicely with some other current threads. I don't know if that's good or bad, since some controversy could spill over. I will say it does seem to take a lot of Husserl as read. You don't, maybe, need to know your Husserl (I'm no scholar myself) but then you have to just accept a lot of very broad characterization on faith. All that being said, I liked what I read, and would be down to do it. Shit's dense tho, it'll take real dedication.
The Great Whatever September 09, 2016 at 05:34 #20115
Okay, let's go ahead with the Derrida, 'Voice' translation preferred. Let's give a little time for everyone interested to get their hands on a copy. I think I will be able to secure a copy on Saturday or Sunday, at which point I'll skim through and get a feel for the structure, to see how we might divide up the reading.
Pierre-Normand September 09, 2016 at 05:56 #20118
If anyone finds a copy of the original French, let me know.
Marty September 09, 2016 at 06:03 #20121
Reply to Pierre-Normand

Isn't La voix et le phénomène on Library Genesis?

Although, I'm not finding the English equivalent. At least not the Leonard Lawlor version on there.
Streetlight September 09, 2016 at 07:04 #20144
OK some prelim: it's 7 chapters plus an introduction of about 10 to 15 pages each, not including the translator's introduction (for the Lawlor translation). It's 10- 15 pages of density though, not because (I don't think) of obscure formulations, but because Derrida is very economical in his presentation. If he introduces a term or terms, he will launch straight into a discussion of the philosophical imports of those terms without spending alot of time on pedagogy. It requires a very quick uptake of unfamiliar language, but if you can keep track of it, it's entirely readable - but the 'keeping track of' is the hard bit.

Again, anyone want copies, please PM me.
Pierre-Normand September 09, 2016 at 08:13 #20157
Quoting Marty
Isn't La voix et le phénomène on Library Genesis?


Yes it is! Thanks.
Deleteduserrc September 10, 2016 at 02:38 #20445
The difference between the two translations is a bit worrisome to me. I've already found a few passages in the introduction which say entirely different things depending on which version you read.
Pierre-Normand September 10, 2016 at 06:23 #20468
Quoting csalisbury
The difference between the two translations is a bit worrisome to me. I've already found a few passages in the introduction which say entirely different things depending on which version you read.


Could you post a couple of them side by side? I could compare them with the French original and venture an opinion regarding which one, if any, seems to err.
Streetlight September 10, 2016 at 08:44 #20486
Took a quick read though the introduction and there's a bit more assumed knowledge in there than I recall (it gets 'easier' when the book 'starts' proper), but here's a violently reductive crash course in phenomenology to help with some orientation:

The basic operation of phenomenology is to divide the world up into two 'levels' as it were. The mundane world of 'stuff' and the ideal world of sense and meaning. It's kind of the difference between 'scribbles on a page' and 'words imbued with sense'. Methodologically, the idea is to 'bracket' the former while keeping analysis solely at the level of the latter. This is the 'phenomenological/eidetic reduction' or the 'epoche'. It is less a reduction to some substance or another (as is the common use of the word 'reduction') than it is a reduction in the culinary sense of boiling away the unnecessary ingredients to leave you with the important stuff - in this case sense and meaning.

Minimally, the important thing about meaning (in this context) is that it is 'ideal'. Ideal doesn't mean 'in the head' but rather something like context-invariant and infinitely repeatable. So once you 'fix' a term with a meaning, for example, no matter how one writes it - squiggly, neatly, in Arabic, in code - it's 'meaning' is 'ideal' and all the mundanities of it's 'matter' are irrelevant. Meaning here is a kind of 'form' (in the Platonic sense), which persists across all of it's material 'accidents'. This ideality is a kind of specialness which is 'present to itself'; it is correlated with 'transcendental life', a 'living present', and 'consciousness', as distinct from the 'dead' material 'stuff'. Terminologically, Husserl will refer anything that belongs to this order as 'noema', or as what belongs to the 'noetic sphere'.

So the question to keep in mind while reading is this: what is the relation between the two 'levels' of the mundane and the transcendental?
Pierre-Normand September 10, 2016 at 09:23 #20489
That's quite helpful, StreetlightX, thanks.
Moliere September 10, 2016 at 11:22 #20506
So I'd like to settle on a translation, if that's OK. I've tried to not before and it was pretty distracting. Are other folk OK with choosing one or the other for sure?
mcdoodle September 10, 2016 at 15:05 #20535
Reply to Moliere Quoting Moliere
Are other folk OK with choosing one or the other for sure?


I'm going with Lawlor's 'Voice and...' and I chose that thinking that that was the recommended version.
Deleteduserrc September 10, 2016 at 18:18 #20546
I've ordered the Lawlor translation as well. I agree, @moliere that too much anxiety over the translation could just stall things entirely, so I'll bracket my concerns for now (tho @Pierre-Normand I'll pm you one particular passage that's causing me some grief)
The Great Whatever September 12, 2016 at 03:20 #20761
Okay, it looks like the introduction deserves a separate discussion. With that said, are people okay with a ~2 month span, about a week per section?

If so, we should decide whether we want to have dedicated summaries, or do it more freestyle. Once we have a general format in mind, we can decide on a starting date and make a new thread. Do people need more time to get a copy of the work, and if so does anyone want leads or assistance?
shmik September 12, 2016 at 04:37 #20765
I read most of the introduction over the weekend but stopped. The introduction requires a decent amount of prior knowledge of Husserl, both his overall project and some technical distinctions he made. I read Cartesian Meditations and a bunch of secondary literature on Husserl some years ago so I picked up some references but a lot was incomprehensible to me. I'm currently looking at the 'historical context' chapter of Derrida's Voice and Phenomenon by Vernon W. Cisney, and will have another crack at the intro afterwards.
The Great Whatever September 12, 2016 at 05:04 #20767
I wonder if it would help for someone to provide a 'skeleton key' for each chapter.
Streetlight September 12, 2016 at 06:17 #20772
I'm happy to provide 'technical advice' as it were, questions about terminology and so on. Note that it does get somewhat easier after the introduction, which is quite sweeping about the claims it makes. Once you get past it, Derrida's analyses get quite precise, and it may even be a good idea to read the introduction after the body of the book - or even revisit it at the end of the reading group.
The Great Whatever September 12, 2016 at 08:25 #20775
Having read both through the introduction and the first chapter, I think it would be prudent to start with the first chapter instead. The intro is very dense and confusing, and makes extensive reference to issues in Husserl's project, like the difference between transcendental phenomenology and pure psychology, that seem more illustrative of general theses espoused in the text and may be distracting until we understand what those theses are. It seems that chapter one can be understood without an independent reading of Husserl or Frege, and where supplements are wanted there are just a couple relevant references that could be consulted (e.g. the beginning of the first Logical Investigation).

We could just have the Intro as the eighth part of the reading, functioning basically as a sort of conclusion.
Deleteduserrc September 12, 2016 at 17:11 #20822
Yeah, I like doing the intro at the end. What were you thinking for a timeframe? Maybe chapter one by next weekend?
The Great Whatever September 12, 2016 at 20:33 #20844
Reply to csalisbury I thought we could just pick an arbitrary day to start each week, and then spend the week discussing the chapter. So yeah, we could just say that each week starts on Sunday, and next Sunday is when the discussion proper will begin. I'll make a thread several days beforehand. Optimally everyone will have read before the start of the discussion but that's not totally realistic, so we should expect the week also to act as a continuation of the reading and a shoring up of it where things weren't clear.
Deleteduserrc September 12, 2016 at 21:44 #20859
sounds good to me
Deleteduserrc September 13, 2016 at 05:24 #20962
User image
Got my order today (went overboard, b/c I got nothing else to waste money on rn) but, hey, I somehow fucked up the order and got an extra copy of Voice & Phenomenon. Anyone want it? pm me shipping info and its yours.
shmik September 13, 2016 at 08:45 #20972
Nice! Have you read Husserl before? I think he's probably my least favourite writer. He expresses simple things in convoluted ways. I grabbed Logical Investigations from the library but can't bring myself to open it yet.
shmik September 13, 2016 at 08:46 #20973
I'm good with discussion on Sunday. Means I can get the reading done on Saturday if I'm falling behind.
Streetlight September 13, 2016 at 10:02 #20979
Reply to csalisbury Pictures like that make me happy, haha. I should mention - not to burst your bubble! - that there's a newer translation of Ideas by Daniel Dahlstrom that was released just a couple of years ago as well. I've not read it, but it might be useful to consult if you get stuck on passages in the Moran translation.
The Great Whatever September 13, 2016 at 10:18 #20980
Reply to shmik Ideas is mind-blowing. Husserl comes off as a self-conscious, almost constipated writer, and so has the bizarre distinction of conveying almost mystically powerful truths in tortured academic prose.

Reading a bit of the Derrida beforehand, he comes off as highly elliptical and more allusive, even a bit playful (and may we not even call him rhetorical?) than analytical. I hope the lacunae in the (what I guess are supposed to be?) arguments is filled in as the work proceeds.
Deleteduserrc September 13, 2016 at 16:41 #21036
@shmik I've read Cartesian Meditations and a good chunk of Ideas. Definitely doesn't go down easy.
Deleteduserrc September 13, 2016 at 18:19 #21048
Reply to The Great Whatever Compared to later Derrida though, this book feels remarkably lucid and controlled
The Great Whatever September 13, 2016 at 19:45 #21059
Reply to csalisbury I wouldn't know – but I'm having a very hard time reconstructing the points being made. Chapter 2 feels like a chunk is missing. He says some things, makes some distinctions, and suddenly we're over here and I can't for the life of me understand how we got there, even if I go back sentence by sentence.
Deleteduserrc September 13, 2016 at 22:15 #21080
Reply to The Great Whatever Just read chapter two this afternoon & I gotta say I agree. It's fine when he's analyzing the text itself, but the sudden sweeping proclamations about the phenomenological project as a whole are frustrating.
The Great Whatever September 13, 2016 at 22:40 #21082
We will probably talk about the in the group, but a large part of the project here seems to assume that if 'indication' were ineliminable from expression generally then Husserl would be in big trouble. This is asserted several times, but I can't figure out why. Maybe it would mean that Husserl was wrong in thinking one could be isolated from the other – but the broader implications for phenomenology are unclear.

Part of it seems to be an insistence that as indication belongs to 'mundanity' and the empirical, it is supposed to be cordoned off by the transcendental reduction, and that if we need it (although here I'm not clear on why 'need it for the analysis of language' means 'need it' simpliciter), then the reduction cannot be pure in the way Husserl wants it to be, since an empirical 'outside' that is non-ideal will always contaminate it.

But this just can't be Derrida's line of thought, because it betrays a very basic misunderstanding of the epoché as something that 'removes' some aspect of experience in favor of focusing on some other (and I worry about this because SX's summary post above seems to labor under this same misconception, and wrongly conflates the transcendental and eidetic reductions). On the contrary part of the point of the epoché is that it deprives us of nothing, and leaves us with all the richness of the empirical world just as it was, but now as 'world-phenomenon.' We expect indication to be included in the reduction, and indeed as Husserl says (and Derrida quotes him as saying), he intends phenomenology to investigate indication as a phenomenological theme in its own right.

Even if Husserl were mistaken that expression could be cordoned off from indication in soliloquy, this would just mean that in examining expression we would need to see how it intrinsically relates to indication, which isn't made any less possible from the fact that phenomenology deals in idealities. The whole point of the eidetic reduction is to extract essential structures from particular facts, and Husserl even seems to claim that it's impossible to perceive essences except via facts.
Deleteduserrc September 14, 2016 at 00:25 #21090
I think the ultimate target is presence, not mundanity (the introduction locks onto retention/protention and the alter-ego which renders possible intersubjectivity.) Indication involves passing from the known to the not-known (from what is present to what is not-yet-present) and I think this is why Derrida is honing in on it. I've only read the first two chapters, but I think the point is something like, if indication and expression are inseparable, then there is always a not-yet-present which makes what is present intelligible. Though I don't want to sap the convo from the not-yet-present reading group.
The Great Whatever September 14, 2016 at 06:37 #21125
Reply to csalisbury He comes back to it later I think.

Anyway this is kind of neat, it's like a big word puzzle. You have to stare at the sentences for a long time and figure out how the words fit together. Good mental exercise.

We may need to put up sentences and see who can 'crack' them fastest, maybe give out cash prizes. I also think I may need to reread the Investigations or Ideas, which I was kind of hoping not have have to do.
Deleteduserrc September 14, 2016 at 17:21 #21176
You're poisoning the well! No one will want to participate! The way I see the book, so far, is a super close reading of the first logical investigation punctuated by impatient anticipations of a broad conclusion (e.g 'do we not already have the right to say the entirety of phenomenology lies in the hiatus between indication and expression?' Well, no, obviously and if we did the rest of the book would be redundant.)The close reading bits, though, are keen enough to make it seem worth pushing on.