How to go beyond an agonal vision of Reality?

Quoting DiegoT

Do you agree that the true nature of social and natural phenomena is conflict and fight?

No. It's a nonsense. If my neighbours and I were constantly fighting and trying to steal each other's stuff, life would be impossible. But we don't. We cooperate, we come to an understanding, we leave each other be, and help each other out, and that cooperation is the nature of social phenomena, and it is upon that ground of cooperation that conflict can arise.

And the natural world works similarly. Dutch Elm disease cannot outlive the Elms that it kills; the dependence is deeper than the conflict, and one way or another, the conflict will end, and life that is less conflicted will continue. Evolution does not favour such conflicts, but more the cooperation, say, between plants and pollinating insects.

But perhaps Europe has been behaving like Dutch Elm disease, and ravaging and destroying its neighbours. Then indeed you are right to be worried. But blaming the refugees is like blaming the dead elms for destroying by their death, the disease that kills them.

Quoting DiegoT

Or is there anyone reading this who can propose an alternative view of reality, say more scientific and rational.

Idly, but they would just ultimately be helpless, and waiting for someone else to do something just like you... because the solution will be a complex secret hidden in the far corners of the universe, waiting for the right intrepid Enlightened one to stumble upon it. It won't just be the things none of you are willing to do, or accept that you can. Distasteful thing that, you're a pacifist.

Never been the conflicting tribe that was dangerous anyway. It was the loner in the corner of town learning how to perfectly satisfy themselves and remove themselves from the turmoil of mere mortals. Caring about the comings and goings of others, and how they should live, and what have you. No, none of my concern. I shall accrue, plan, and work towards the fulfillment of my own happiness, and well-being. We can all move closer and closer to this conclusion. Conflict is hard, so we can all just get better and better at pleasing ourselves, and let everyone live as they will. It's super been working.

Reply to unenlightened Reply to unenlightened You need to work out your biological metaphor better. If Dutch elm disease could not survive the death of the elm, there would be no dead elms by Dutch elm disease. And cooperation is not all that we can see in nature; males do not cooperate to get to copulate with the females, and cats do not cooperate to preserve diversity of bird fauna. I think you need to study more ecology if you want to ground your position on how life works. It´s what I´d do

Reply to All sight what do you propose we do in Europe to avoid Civil War? Is there any particular thought you would try to communicate to us if you had a last tv ad of the year opportunity?

Quoting DiegoT

Do you agree that the true nature of social and natural phenomena is conflict and fight? Or is there anyone reading this who can propose an alternative view of reality, say more scientific and rational.

Quoting DiegoT

And cooperation is not all that we can see in nature; males do not cooperate to get to copulate with the females, and cats do not cooperate to preserve diversity of bird fauna

Excellent points.

I would say that nature of social and natural phenomena is propagating genes. Different species and different members (males and females for instance) of each species have different strategies for propagating their genes. Maybe we could say that the nature of social and natural phenomenon is environmental feedback (natural selection) - of adapting (trying new strategies in the face of environmental pressures (which can include other organisms, like predators trying to propagate their genes)) to propagate your genes. Sometimes cooperation is necessary, sometimes conflict is necessary. There is no doubt that both strategies work when used at the appropriate time.

Quoting DiegoT

Spain, my country, is suffering a coup d´etat supported directly by Soros (who met in secret our "president" in La Moncloa),

Are you just referencing the Catalonia Independence movement there?

Reply to Terrapin Station From other countries is difficult to understand what is going on, as happens people who don´t understand Brexit. Is not a separatist region against the rest of Spain; little more than half of Catalonia oppose independence, despite 40 years of wild indoctrination; and the most voted party there is against referendum.

What is really happening, is that separatists (ethnic totalitarians) and extreme left (globalist totalitarians) have allied to impose a new regime in Spain, with the help of Soros, and other donors. They put their votes together, all left and fascist (they are fascist, it´s not name-calling) separatist movements, to throw the president out and put a new, very weak and easy to manage, new president. The man said he would call elections right away, but he lied of course. A month later he had a secret meeting with Soros in the presidential palace. No journalist has asked him about it.

The only party opposing the Coup is really Vox. Vox is NOT fascist, or extreme right, as the media portrait them. There are real extreme right parties in Spain, but they never get more than a few thousands votes and they are not racist. Vox is a spin off of the centre-right party, with people who thought that enough was enough with widespread corruption. They are liberal, pro-democracy, pro-constitution and pro-defending borders that are now wide open and literally in control of mafias. The former party and Ciudadanos, supposedly the centre-right, do not really do anything at all, just talking, but especially PP have been supporting the Coup until the evictment.

I have always voted left or extreme left, but now if new elections are called, I will vote Vox no doubt. I´m not a capitalist liberal or Catholic, but I think ideology is a luxury when your country is at such great risk of civil war. People in Spain that aren´t pro-war and pro-separatism, think that only Vox can help. I wish there were more parties on the side of union and Constitution; but it´s only the King, the Judiciary, and Vox (and millions of people).

Quoting DiegoT

You need to work out your biological metaphor better. If Dutch elm disease could not survive the death of the elm, there would be no dead elms by Dutch elm disease.

You need to read with a modicum of charity. I'm not an idiot. A disease that kills its host can of course survive the death of its individual host, but a disease that kills all its hosts cannot survive. There is conflict and competition, but there is strong evolutionary pressure to minimise it. Sensible diseases do not damage their host too much, sensible predators do not kill all their prey. But I am not grounding social phenomena on biology, I am responding to your question about "social and natural phenomena" by talking about them both in turn.

Reply to DiegoT

Thanks for the info, although that kinda leaves me with more questions than answers. :razz:

"Pro defending borders" is not something I'm in favor of, but we have enough problems with that issue in the U.S. at the moment.

Reply to DiegoT Quoting DiegoT

Spain, my country, is suffering a coup d´etat supported directly by Soros (who met in secret our "president" in La Moncloa),

Could you explain it? It looks like another conspiracy theory...

"Sometimes cooperation is necessary, sometimes conflict is necessary. There is no doubt that both strategies work when used at the appropriate time"., Yes Harry Hindu, but then if fighting is not the only option, it means that there is a more general principle at work, and war is not the the cornerstone of life or society.

This is very obvious to me but it´s not evident at all for darwinism, feminism, islam, socialism, LGTB activism and other movements, that consider war/struggle/jihad more than just a way of dealing with problems. In these ideologies, conflict and struggle is central and holy, as it is considered the very mechanism of evolution and progress.
It´s a metaphysical tenet that produces, naturally, confrontation and victimization of others not as a last resort, but as a first resort.
I wonder if there is an alternative cosmovision out there where war is not the basis for human relationships, whether they are personal, social or international. Please do not even mention Christianism, as Christianism has the Apocalyptic Conflict of Good and Evil as the main theme just like the rest; only difference is that it advocates absolute surrender to your enemies (at least Catholicism).

unenlightened, I did not think you were an idiot. We are not supposed to know about all matters in the universe; for example, I do not know what pedal you have to step on to brake the car, or the name of the character in Game of Thrones with white hair and dark eyebrows.
I thought your ecology background was poor because you were over-emphasising cooperation, as feminists who don´t even know who Lynn Margulis was do. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

Terrapin Station, you can not "not be pro-borders", unless you advocate a pre-borders situation, in which towns built thick walls around them and woodlands had to be chopped down for safety. But that was not a border-less scenario, but an situation in which each town made its own precarious borders because frontiers were not protected. Borders, or filtering and separating, is essential to anything alive, from a protozoid to a planet and all things in between.

Number2018, it is not a conspiracy theory, unfortunately. This is the link to the meeting Soros-Puppet president. Soros new base in Barcelona, capital of Catalonia. This is the leader of the main opposition party, in Parliament, denouncing that the Puppet is supporting the coup d´etat instead of fighting it.

An assault on democracy doesn´t need to be quick and shocking, as in Latinoamerica. Sometimes seizing power takes years. Last time in Spain took five years, from 76 to 1981. This happens when the rebels are not the stronger side and need to slowly erode the pillars of the State and Democracy, instead of just occupying the Parliament that is bound to fail. Separatists in Spain, that are fascist in origin (Basque separatism closer to Hitler, and Catalonian separatists closer to Mussolini); extreme left that is sponsored by Venezuela and Iran (some say that China but I can´t confirm), and a group of very corrupt parties are all together in a front for a new Republic. A Republic more like Venezuela or fascist Italia than like the U.S or France, that´s the catch.