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Logical Behaviourism

Shawn November 17, 2018 at 01:05 6750 views 18 comments
I've been reading the beetle in a box argument raised by Ludwig Wittgenstein and think it is illustrative of logical behaviourism. According to Wittgenstein, we can only infer intent from behaviour, there is nothing more to intent than the sum total of all behaviour displayed by any individual. The "beetle" is a beetle because we all agree that it is so.

So, what happens to concepts like "subjectivity", "pains", and "intentionality"? Do we just throw them away or are they indicative that logical behaviourism is not all-encompassing in describing the affective aspect of the mind?

Comments (18)

macrosoft November 17, 2018 at 01:15 #228629
Reply to Posty McPostface

I'd love to reply, but I have no idea what you are talking about. I can't see what you are doing right now. But assuming I could understand you, I do wonder how you grokked this beetle in a box argument. Did Wittgenstein dance like a bee to communicate it? And I thought he had left us long since.

(I'm joking with you, but maybe you see my concern. )

Shawn November 17, 2018 at 01:17 #228630
Quoting macrosoft
I'd love to reply, but I have no idea what you are talking about. I can't see what you are doing right now. But assuming I could understand you, I do wonder how you grokked this beetle in a box argument. Did Wittgenstein dance like a bee to communicate it?


Yes! It's almost as if I have to break down the puzzle and reassemble it in my own way to be able to understand what you mean. What do you think about this 'breaking down "process"'?
macrosoft November 17, 2018 at 01:19 #228631
Quoting Posty McPostface
Yes! It's almost as if I have to break down the puzzle and reassemble it in my own way to be able to understand what you mean. What do you think about this 'breaking down "process"'?


That does sound more like it. But why breaking down? Why not building up? We somehow assemble a sequence of words and end up with a complete thought. In most cases (away from philosophy, right) it is as easy as breathing.
Shawn November 17, 2018 at 01:19 #228632
Plato called it noesis, or intelligibility. Bertrand Russell called it the Principle of Acquaintance.

I think it's our ability to "reproduce" it in our own way.
macrosoft November 17, 2018 at 01:21 #228633
Reply to Posty McPostface

Yeah, I like that. Noesis seems to be pointing at that dark place from where we listen. It makes sense that the brain is doing some kind of assembly. And that supports the non-instantaneous nature of meaning. It also supports the 'time' of meaning. Our eyes scan from left to right, with memory and expectation. There are spaces between the words, but I don't think reading-for-us is actually jagged like that. Meaning is continuous. A sentence is a musical whole.
Shawn November 17, 2018 at 01:24 #228634
Quoting macrosoft
Noesis seems to be pointing at that dark place from where we listen.


No, "noesis" is indicative of illuminating light (originating from the sun) according to Plato.
macrosoft November 17, 2018 at 01:26 #228636
Quoting Posty McPostface
No, "noesis" is indicative of illuminating light (originating from the sun) according to Plato.


Surely not the literal sun. The question is what is this thing that illuminates everything else and yet itself recedes? I can't speak for Plato's intentions, but the sun reveals things. The sun comes up and the landscape is there in all its detail.
Shawn November 17, 2018 at 01:27 #228637
Quoting macrosoft
Meaning is continuous. A sentence is a musical whole.


Since you edited your post, I'll address it:

The world is the totality of facts, not things. What do "facts" mean to you? There's nothing dark or mysterious about 'facts' is there?
Shawn November 17, 2018 at 01:28 #228638
Quoting macrosoft
I can't speak for Plato's intentions, but the sun reveals things. The sun comes up and the landscape is there in all its detail.


I'm deviating; but, are intents hidden from the sunlight?
Shawn November 17, 2018 at 01:34 #228640
If a behavioural solipsist were to come along and tell us s/he known intent inferred from behaviour, how could we prove s/he wrong?
Brianna Whitney November 17, 2018 at 02:48 #228647
No one would talk much in society if they knew how often they misunderstood others. -Goethe
Shawn November 17, 2018 at 02:50 #228648
Quoting Brianna Whitney
No one would talk much in society if they knew how often they misunderstood others. -Goethe


What do you mean?!
macrosoft November 17, 2018 at 02:59 #228649
Quoting Posty McPostface
The world is the totality of facts, not things. What do "facts" mean to you? There's nothing dark or mysterious about 'facts' is there?


I think so. Facts are intelligible.The mystery is meaning itself. What facts versus things gets right is a nexus of relations, the world as a kind of object-networked field of meaning. I'd say just look at the world as you live in it. Remember how it is for you when you weren't thinking of yourself as a philosopher.
macrosoft November 17, 2018 at 03:04 #228650
Quoting Posty McPostface
I'm deviating; but, are intents hidden from the sunlight?


I'm saying that language-as-a-hole or the 'operating system' lies coiled in the dark place from which we listen and speak. Since the operating system is purring in the background, doing its job, what you speak and hear makes since to you. These words make some kind of sense. What is hidden from the sunlight is the sun itself. That which makes visible/intelligible is itself in darkness. The thought of mind is not the mind itself, and 'mind' is a misleading word that already over-specifies by neglecting the essential sharedness of language. Or we can say that mind is surprisingly social, given our air-gapped skulls. On the other hand, the whole point of meaning would seem to be for humans to work together. We are so deeply social that we live in a kind of sense-making 'fluid' that we can only imperfectly make sense of. What whatever we say about this 'fluid' is said 'by' or 'within' this 'fluid.'

It may sound mystical, but it's just phenomenological. It's just this space we share as we converse. We tend to take it for granted, use it without looking at it.
Marchesk November 17, 2018 at 12:02 #228678
Quoting Posty McPostface
f a behavioural solipsist were to come along and tell us s/he known intent inferred from behaviour, how could we prove s/he wrong?


The amount of invalid inferences this behaviorist would make. Think about all the times we try to tell whether someone is lying, or fail to tell. Take a jury trying to decide if a defendant acts guilty during a trial. Or how often in true crime people's opinions will split over whether someone sounded suspicious on a 911 call.
Marchesk November 17, 2018 at 12:08 #228679
Quoting Posty McPostface
So, what happens to concepts like "subjectivity", "pains", and "intentionality"? Do we just throw them away or are they indicative that logical behaviourism is not all-encompassing in describing the affective aspect of the mind?


Do you experience pains and mean things? If so, then why would you throw them away because of some philosophical argument?

If the beetle in the box entails logical behaviorism, then it's flat out wrong.
Terrapin Station November 17, 2018 at 13:40 #228689
Quoting Posty McPostface
we can only infer intent from behaviour,


Yes, when we're talking about third-person observing other people.

there is nothing more to intent than the sum total of all behaviour displayed by any individual.


No, not at all. That's conflating the third-person observation problem with the first-person phenomenon. Not the same thing.

Quoting Posty McPostface
So, what happens to concepts like "subjectivity", "pains", and "intentionality"?


What happens is we say that Wittgenstein apparently doesn't understand the phenomena in question.

Terrapin Station November 17, 2018 at 13:49 #228690
Quoting Posty McPostface
Yes! It's almost as if I have to break down the puzzle and reassemble it in my own way to be able to understand what you mean.


Of course. That's obviously how meaning works.

Quoting macrosoft
That does sound more like it. But why breaking down? Why not building up?


Probably don't be so literal about the phrase "break down."