I'm ready to major in phil, any advice?

Go for it.

Wittgenstein would tell you that you would be better off learning something like carpentry. I would say that most philosophers do not contribute much. Why? Because much of what passes for good philosophy is mostly confusion. This might be a bitter pill, but it is the truth.

Good luck Posty.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Any advice appreciated.

Forget double majoring, also don't over stuff your semesters with credits. Take a few good classes then use the extra time to learn the subjects more deeply. The goal should not be to just get your grade then move on, it is to learn and have real comprehension.

Reply to Posty McPostface

I think you have the disposition for it, and for that particular area of study, so I'd say do it.

When you feel ready, you should definitely seek out Janette Dinishak and/or Daniel Guevara. Philosophy is like a lot of industries, I think, where being bold, confident, and self-certain is necessary to learn and progress no matter how smart and capable you are. Though it's also a fine balance where going overboard will lead you into that awful place no one wants: being a pretentious bore.

Other things that I wish I could do-over or would tell my younger self: Don't question too much! I know it sounds like funny advice for a philosophy major, but I've noticed successful students tend to stick to their topics of interest and their goals, which they pursue vigorously. If you get caught-up in a certain sort of self-doubt ("What the hell am I going to do with a philosophy degree?", "Shouldn't I double major?" "Ok, I need to double major, but what will my other subject be?", "Gosh, am I too myopically interested in Wittgenstein? But then who else should I study?", "Is this thesis topic at all interesting, does it reflect everything I wanted to get out of this dergree?"; etc. etc.) you'll end with all the downsides of a philosophy degree people warn you about. But it need not be so. In other words, study what you want to study, do a good job, and I promise things will work out. In my experience, those I knew with a 3.8+ gpa in philosophy did very well for themselves, and a lot better than people who studied subjects for the sake of the job market.

What else....oh, a big thing about writing papers - undergrad or grad, but especially early on - is that I suggest you avoid the temptation to satisfy your global philosophical concerns in some 8 page paper. This is the biggest problem I know of that has crushed people at school. Very smart people have a tendency to feel like they've come up with some great ideas about life and the universe that they want to share; or, for example, some big interpretation of Wittgenstein in general. The really successful people will get stumped by, say, Aphorisms 130-133 in the PI and write an entire paper about just those sections. If you think of your philosophical mind as a capacity to raise problems in small areas and passages where others largely fail to see problems - because they read too quickly or fail to adequately see the depth of the issues raised - then I promise you will (1) consistently get A's in your coursework, (2) learn a lot without exhausting yourself and burning out as though your whole view of the universe hinges on every paper, (3) have a fun time in class and build relationships with TAs and Professors who will find your work interesting.

(Sorry for all the long, sorta unsolicited advice.)

Quoting John Doe

Other things that I wish I could do-over or would tell my younger self: Don't question too much! I know it sounds like funny advice for a philosophy major, but I've noticed successful students tend to stick to their topics of interest and their goals, which they pursue vigorously.

Quoting John Doe

The really successful people will get stumped by, say, Aphorisms 130-133

Successful in what way?

Reply to Noble Dust I suppose that I probably had two distinct metrics in mind when I used the word "success": (1) Students that manage to learn, have fun, grow, etc. while avoiding the pitfalls endemic to majoring in philosophy: becoming frustrated and depressed; isolated and lonely; failing courses and dropping out. (2) Students who navigate the undergrad experience in a way that 'creates capabilities' and leaves their options in tact: the successful acquisition skills that will be useful in jobs, law school, etc.; the sculpting of a CV and transcript that will enable graduates to retain a wide variety of options in terms of what they wish to pursue in terms of career, later professional study (law, business, medicine), or further graduate study in philosophy.

Of course, we can debate the hell out of what we mean by 'success' in the context of studying philosophy, though I don't think that should preclude us from making observations about what makes for successful students in terms of the common-sense use of the word.

I don't know. What do you think?

Quoting Posty McPostface

I've set my mind on majoring in philosophy. I'm hoping on returning to my old school, UCSC. My main interest is with Wittgenstein as many can tell. But, I was wondering what others might have to say about my plans?

You might seek out those currently teaching and studying academic philosophy for further advice. This link might help:

https://blog.apaonline.org/

If you don't know already, this is a group blog of academic philosophers and their students. It's run by the American Philosophical Association. There's very little conversation on the site, but you may be able to make some contacts by following links in the articles. And reading the articles may give you a better idea of what kind of work is expected.

I spent some months on the site and came away with a better understanding of the culture of academic philosophy at least. That said, I'm not clear how representative that site is of academic philosophy in general.

My admittedly imperfect impression is that the job market for philosophy majors is not promising. And my admittedly imperfect impression of you leaves me not knowing whether this matters to you or not. If it does, the double major suggestion is probably worth considering. At the least I would advise against going in to debt for a philosophy degree.

A place to start might be to write a paper on why you want a philosophy degree, as opposed to studying philosophy on your own, which you seem capable of doing. I'm not making any point here other than that writing such a paper might help you think it through in more detail.

It depends wether you plan to monetize what you learned by studieng or not. If it's just to satisfy your curiousity, sure just do philosophy. If you plan to make a living from what you studied as well, take a second major that is more practical to monetize.
Mathematics might be an option, Plato also recommended it for training your mind in logic and hence becoming a better philosopher.

What you should do is find out the fastest track to graduation, get the best grades you can, and then enter the work force and do whatever it is you want to do.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Quoting Hanover

What you should do is find out the fastest track to graduation, get the best grades you can, and then enter the work force and do whatever it is you want to do.

Hanover is right. :100:
Posty, I have returned to school and am on "a" track, one that I have been on for over 30 yrs but had a 21 yr delay in raising our Indians. Now that they are both out of the house, my youngest is a Sophomore at college and frankly I realized that I have been standing at the same cross roads for far too long. So I enrolled in college and from what I know, you would likely qualify for the Pell Grant that will cover any load of classes you might want to take at a Community College. There are also a plethora of free online courses at a few of the Ivy League schools back East that will catapult you over any class you need to take locally.
Whatever you do, do SOMETHING! :strong:
And I say that knowing I am speaking from a place of hypocrisy but if I can do it now, you can too.
Here is the scary thing: :gasp:
Once you make a decision, you will be surprised how quickly your goal is realized. So be careful what you choose to do because the Universe has a line of work waiting for your attention. :up:

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff I do remember many kids at school that were good students and very interested in what they were learning, but they lacked direction, not really paying attention to what courses were needed to graduate, and sort of just dabbled until they quit. There's something to be said about pushing through it. If there's something that's really interesting, do it on your wn time, but don't let it slow you down from the finish line.

Quoting Posty McPostface

I've been told to double major; but, am unsure what else pikes my interest enough to entertain anything else than philosophy.

Is design a subject you could follow? Or maybe some aspect of art? There's so much concentration on science these days that almost anything else, as a balance to over-sciencing the world, would be worthwhile. Just my two pennyworth.

Quoting Sam26

Wittgenstein would tell you that you would be better off learning something like carpentry. I would say that most philosophers do not contribute much. Why? Because much of what passes for good philosophy is mostly confusion. This might be a bitter pill, but it is the truth.

Good luck Posty.

Yes, that's my main gripe with doing philosophy academically. Wittgenstein wouldn't approve.

Quoting tim wood

Why? That is, what is college going to do for you?

I'd think it would provide some framework where I could enhance my skills.

Quoting Pattern-chaser

Is design a subject you could follow? Or maybe some aspect of art? There's so much concentration on science these days that almost anything else, as a balance to over-sciencing the world, would be worthwhile. Just my two pennyworth.

I think mathematics is something I could double major in. I have the mind for it. Although, I hate vector calculus with a passion.

Math is definitely the closest related philosophy subject, but, it's not for everyone. Philosophy is about arguing, and that's what a mathematical proof is --- an argument. History also seems to overlap with philosophy, at least intellectual history. There are also options in cognitive science, which may also be useful for graduate work in artificial intelligence. You could also do something like minor in biology, and then go to medical school with a philosophy major. Law school is also an option for philosophy majors.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

Quoting tim wood

Wittgenstein "bakes bread"?

No, he was a philosopher. A mystic of sorts.

Reply to Posty McPostface Some of us consider a college degree a doorway to a well-paying job. It would be irrational for a philosophy major to make that assumption. We don't need any more irrational philosophers, so have a realistic expectation about what you will get for your trouble.

Reply to Posty McPostface Do you have any interest in psychotherapy? I don't mean getting it (god knows we could all stand a few hours on the couch). I mean studying-doing. I wouldn't suggest you double major in philosophy and psychology because a BA in psychology isn't likely to be very enjoyable (just my opinion) and it won't in itself lead to much employment opportunity. (Sort of like philosophy that way.)

Finish a degree; if you are interested in doing psychotherapy, consider training in a particular approach like rational emotive therapy, CBD, or DDT, 24D, Roundup ... whatever turns you on (or off, as the case may be.)

I met a guy at the bar last night (50+) who majored in philosophy and classics (took Latin as his foreign language, did quite well) and since has worked in business. He worked for Deluxe Check Printing for quite a few years and now works for US Bank in a responsible accounting position.

Here's some advice that comes from a philosopher, and works for readers, posters and debaters alike.

The Crisis of Civility in Public Life
DR. JACOB NEEDLEMAN·MONDAY, 29 OCTOBER 2018
Not long ago I was a guest at a presidential State of the Union address in Washington D.C. After the speech, at a private home a stone’s throw from the Supreme Court building, I met with some members of Congress to talk about how a philosopher sees the heart-wrenching crisis of incivility in American public life.
I had just finished describing how in my philosophy classes I make use of what counselors and mediators sometimes call the practice of “mirroring.” In that exercise two people holding passionately opposed opinions about an important issue debate each other under the following strict condition: they can express their views only after they have faithfully summarized what the other has just said. I treat this exercise not so much as an instrument of reconciliation, but mainly as a means of studying and understanding what it really means to listen to another human being. The result is often nothing short of miraculous, even to the point of bringing tears to my eyes.
This exercise holds lessons that are desperately needed in our public and private life. In absolutely every case, the two participants come away with the profound realization that they have been disagreeing with an opinion held by a real living human being. They have been denying each other’s views, not each other’s humanity. Even to the point of walking away arm in arm—and even though their views have not been changed!
And furthermore, even though their views have not changed, they have been compelled for a brief moment to take a distance from their passionately held opinions in order to be able to summarize what the other has said. And this has enabled them to think more clearly and deeply about their own views. And so, this exercise is also an exercise in the work of thinking, thinking together with another human being.
The life of our democracy depends entirely upon the lessons of this exercise. One could even say that the life of our world depends upon learning to do the work of listening. To listen to another requires far more than simply waiting for a moment to put forth one’s own views or attack the other. It means allowing the other person into one’s mind, receiving their thought. It does not mean agreeing with the other—that is not the essential element. The essential element is making room in one’s mind for another’s views-- and that requires the effort of separating for a moment from one’s own thoughts. The result is a new relationship between two human beings, something far, far more important than winning or losing an argument. One discovers that one can respect, or perhaps even love, another person who holds views that are diametrically opposed to one’s own!
When I explained this exercise to the members of Congress, I said to them (knowing full well what their response would be): “I imagine that when you are trying to decide issues that will affect the lives of millions of Americans you try to listen and think together like this.” They looked at me as if I were crazy. “Never!” they said, sharply and sadly, “Never do we work together like that!” They went on to tell me how much they would wish to work like that—and even sometimes, privately did—but that the system—media, television, lobbyists—had now made it impossible in their public role as members of Congress.
In certain medieval Christian illustrated manuscripts, two individuals are seated facing each other and speaking. Above them hovers a white dove. The dove is the classic symbol of the Holy Spirit and in these illustrations the spirit—that is, the energy of a higher reconciling force--is descending into the hearts and minds of individual human beings speaking and listening to each other.
All men and women, of whatever faith or belief, need that white dove to descend into our common life—no matter by what name we call it: truth, love, impartiality—or, finally, peace. And it can begin to enter our lives by the simple act and fully human work of listening to each other. It is actually possible.
Jacob Needleman
Professor of Philosophy Emeritus
San Francisco State University

Quoting Posty McPostface

I'd think it would provide some framework where I could enhance my skills.

To the limited degree I understand your situation, if I do at all, it seems attending college would get you out of the house and help you learn more life skills. I support the idea for that reason.

However, given the sad state of the philosophy business, getting a philosophy degree seems like a poor business plan, so attending college is likely to be a temporary remedy. Unless you can convert the philosophy degree in to a decent job, there's a good chance you'll be returning to mom's house down the road a few years.

A law degree might be a compromise. That's still a highly intellectual and philosophical experience, but has a better chance of serving your needs over the long run. A philosophy BA with the goal of using that degree to gain entry to law school?

Quoting Hanover

I do remember many kids at school that were good students and very interested in what they were learning, but they lacked direction, not really paying attention to what courses were needed to graduate, and sort of just dabbled until they quit. There's something to be said about pushing through it. If there's something that's really interesting, do it on your wn time, but don't let it slow you down from the finish line.

My problem with school was that I was a good student but I was also a total flirt with the teachers. So between a smile and a plate of my infamous oatmeal raisin cookies, I aced my classes. :love:
Now that I am a few years older, I am in it for the information. I have sharpened my communication skills here in the forum and along the 21yrs I have been out of school, so in some ways I am much better prepared. I have always felt the desire to be helpful and leave people feeling better for having interacted with me so counseling comes natural. I am toying with different final destinations but right now I am considering being a Social Worker in the field of Addiction or a Social Worker for Hospice.

Now before you might point out the absolute difficulty that I have had and still am experiencing the grief of losing my Dad, understand that I have been there in the 11th hour for more than one patient I didn't know until I was lying in bed beside them, trying to bring peace of mind to their departing body.
I have what it takes when it is someone else. I know how to ease people's concerns about passing over to the other side and the wonder about what is there if anything. I easily adapt to other people's religious traditions and can speak softly about things I know nothing about, to people I have never met before the hours before they cease living.

I really do believe I will get greater inner satisfaction in helping others transition over to the other side and helping the family along the journey that their loved one is on. That is what is in my heart right now but I am open to entertaining other fields.

In the end, I might want to teach the up and coming Hospice Social workers. I have found a new hill to die on. The first hill was to see that when offered up a scrip for Opiates that a script for Cannabis is offered at the same time to the patient and Governor Cuomo of NY is passing that law and it is only a matter of time before that is the offer across the country. So I needed a new hill and one came to me.
My new hill, that I am willing to die on is an advanced attitude towards Kevorkian's cause and having the right to take your own life, at the time of your choosing, with those you wish to have around you.

For me, it is worthy of pursuing making legal for too many reasons to count and for names I wish to hold close... :broken:
It's not time, it's past time. :brow:

Reply to Posty McPostface

It will both give you the opportunity to think and give you a framework to think in; hence take a program where you are able to embody all the philosophies as much as you can. Thought forms perspective, perspective carves out reality from a state of ignorance into a more balanced and meaningful structure in which to live.

It is a good foundation degree for a master's (law, psychology, mathematics, etc.) and institutions such as the FBI or secret service, I "think" the secret service specifically if and only if memory serves, favor it.

Pursuing knowledge is never a wasted effort in a world which is founded in confusion and negative diversity.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Any advice appreciated.

I'd say go for it, too, but I think it's hard to predict how you will feel about it. When the instructor is bad, he or she just wants you to see the world as they do, and you will be graded to some degree by how much you conform. And these grades convert the whole enterprise into a kind of business. There is a strong temptation to just push the right buttons and keep one's real thinking private. Good teachers may welcome this real thinking, but (in my experience) the student is largely conceived as a vessel to be stuffed with a predetermined set of opinions and skills.

University cannot be a place of free discussion when it's expensive, when funding is connected to grades (winning scholarships, etc. ), and when a teacher ultimately gets to grade papers according to their own standards. In some ways instructors are like employers. They 'pay' you with grades if you figure out how to make them happy. If you feel genuine respect for them, this isn't a problem. But sometimes they will lack charisma, and then you will feel that you are feigning respect and grudgingly conforming in a way that betrays your idealistic notions of philosophy. (I'm still loyal to a 'spiritual' or 'high' notion of philosophy myself, so I was often frustrated by a sense that my thinking was neither required nor even welcome. Despite the context of fine talk about 'critical thinking,' the 'machine' is designed to sell certification for both money and conformity. Ideally it sells some other nice things too, but it's not clear that these aren't best pursued individually in a more authentic context. I will say that academia is itself a kind of important life experience.

TL;DR
Give it a try, but it's hard to speak for the decisions of the future you to continue or not.

Quoting macrosoft

Give it a try, but it's hard to speak for the decisions of the future you to continue or not.

Thanks for the enlightening post. I'm not quite ready yet. Well, I'm ready as can be; but, I don't want to rush the decision. Plus, student loans suck.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Plus, student loans suck.

Yea, student loans for a philosophy degree. Not a great plan.

How about this? You seem perfectly capable of studying philosophy on your own, and with others over the Net, for free. And, you can also go to the university, meet people on campus, start a face to face philosophy club etc, also all for free.

Unless you have some specific well thought out plan for turning a philosophy degree in to a job, why bother with a degree?

I'm hardly an expert on academic philosophy, but what I saw in my explorations was that once you have a job at a university you become a prisoner of the politically correct group consensus. Your reputation is everything, and thus you can't really rock the boat, but only pretend to be a rebel etc. Not such a great position for a sincere philosopher to be in.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Well, I'm ready as can be; but, I don't want to rush the decision.

Assuming you avoid student loans, what's to decide? Just saying, you won't be in your twenties much longer, time's a wastin. The window where you will fit in socially on a campus is closing.

Why not just go ahead and try moving to the college town and meeting some other philosophical folks etc. If it doesn't work out, mom's house is still there, right? The worst that can happen is that you will learn what doesn't work so that you can direct your attention at some other plan.

This just came to mind...

Many of your posts seem to somehow reference a social disability of sorts, if that's an appropriate way to put it. But then many, or perhaps even most, of your threads explicitly request advice from members, which seems a skilled social strategy.

I'm ready to stop giving people advice that they don't actually want and didn't actually ask for.

Except for one little thing. I'm not actually ready.

Any advice?

(learning from the master here)

Quoting Jake

I'm ready to stop giving people advice that they don't actually want and didn't actually ask for.

Except for one little thing. I'm not actually ready.

Any advice?

(learning from the master here)

Haha.

If you are an older student, one thing I did not mention is that it may be better just to try to get into a graduate level program as soon as possible. I think you can do graduate work in philosophy without having to have a philosophy undergraduate degree, just a certain number of credits will do the trick. This is true for other subjects as well throughout the humanities and social sciences, as well as sciences like biology. You may want to speak to an adviser to see if you can get into a graduate program without having to earn an undergraduate degree first. I imagine things get a lot more interesting at the graduate level.

Reply to LD Saunders

I'm not sure about that; but, will have to confirm.

My plans are to first make more money. I need to stand up on my own feet at the moment.

Quoting Posty McPostface

I need to stand up on my own feet at the moment.

Cheering for you here. :up: