It is clear that the arabs - and given who they are, are until repudiated representative of all arabs - have betrayed themselves in the betrayal of their own customs.
This is not about the "Arabs", it's about the Saudi Arabian government. Just as criticism of Israel is not about the "Jews", it's about the Israeli government. Blaming "Arabs" for something that was likely directed by the leadership of one (of many) Arab states and drawing conclusions of hypocrisy with respect to their customs on that basis is a very unfair generalization. It's about as sensible as blaming Irish people for something the Welsh government did because we're all Celts.
Alright, Tim, I'm no SJW or PC-Police and yet this still reads to me as a quintessential expression of the sort of profoundly dehumanizing racism one experiences regularly when one happens to be so unfortunate. I don't want to exchange angry charges of racism and 'you're misinterpreting me!', etc. but just want to tell you how this reads to someone with my personal experiences:
No, you have associated Arabs with murderers. This is not morally free-standing, neutral rhetoric. Not knowing your "identity" or the one foisted on you, all I can say is you won't get this unless you're called everyday to justify, account for, or apologize for "belonging" to a group associated with some heinous activities. It's like...
...associating black American with rapists and murderers then asking them to begin speaking out on behalf of the "community" which those bad apples represent. Who the heck are you to say this constitutes a "community" and that these guys "represent" that community? The claim itself is a racist maneuver, as is the sense that you get to calmly and logically decide what murderers I am and am not associated with on the basis of my "race". At the very least it represents a sort of racial insensitivity, an incapacity to understand the burden of having strong negative associations foisted on you by every stranger you meet for reasons of race, ethnicity, religion, etc.
the community itself, willy-nilly, is burdened and remains burdened until and unless it finds a way to throw off that burden.
Well, yeah, because you're throwing racist claims out there that artificially prop up the notion that there's a community burdened by moral complicity with heinous crimes where no such community exists. Throwing off that burden will mean fighting racism, especially fighting the sort of surreptitious racism you're engaging in here.
Lots of communities have such burdens imposed. In the US, for example, of historic slavery and current racism. It becomes incumbent on us in the US and me individually and as much as possible and as soon as possible to repudiate and eliminate racism and substantively and finally address the historic issues of slavery. Germans labor with Nazism, with some success, in their passage of certain laws and certain efforts at retributive and rehabilitative justice.
Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about here. What you're doing is the equivalent of associating Japanese-Americans with Pearl Harbor. When we concern ourselves with slavery we're not making blanket statements about race but rather about the nature and history of a practice, its moral ramifications in the present, and how to overcome the moral advantages and burdens that this has unfairly distributed to certain citizens.
You're not asking "What is it about the political practices in Saudi Arabia that enabled this tragedy to happen?" but calling on anyone associated with Arabs ethnically or religiously to assume responsibility for a particular government's brazen act of cruelty.
I am well-persuaded that most middle-easterners take their respective cultural practices personally and seriously.
Quite the courtesy. (Again, the experience of racism: This reads as deeply condescending, and not in the sort of way that can be diffused by appeal to your "intentions".)
Reply to tim wood That Jamal Khashoggi was a "guest" in the Arab embassy makes little difference to me. What is appalling is the Saudi's willingness to silence a critic with murder and dismemberment. That the Saudi thugs arrived with knives and saws underscores the premeditation of murder. Murder to silence a critic; not a revolutionary or terrorist: a critic.
I have read reports that allowing Saudis to attend cinema or allowing women to drive cars is window-dressing. It's strategic window-dressing: just enough to make it appear that reform is happening. In actuality, the Saudi royal thuggery rigidly suppress any criticism of the regime. This isn't new.
Trump is worried that if we criticize the Saudi too severely, they will take their military purchases elsewhere. They probably would react that way. It isn't as if there aren't any other military manufacturers at the world arms bazaar. Personally, I think we're far to involved in the world arms trade as it is. And if Trump is worried about arms sales, I'm sure Iran could have taken up some of the slack if the Grand Asshole of Washington hadn't scuttled the nuclear weapons deal with Iran.
What's even worse was their bombing of a bus full of Yemeni school children (with American bombs). Odd that no-one gave a shit about that. But whatever gets people to wake up to the hideousness of this regime, I'm all for. And yes, this "Arab guest" angle is a perverse way to approach the issue @tim wood. This has nothing to do with Arab culture and nothing to do with being Arabic in general. It was (or at least the evidence strongly points to it being) a purely political act not beyond any brutal regime regardless of origin.
Deleted UserOctober 14, 2018 at 21:03#2203070 likes
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It's not because that implies (despite your protestations to the contrary) that Arabs in general are in some way responsible for the murder, which is absurd. Besides which, Arabs are not even one community in any sense except under a rather arbitrary geographical designation with some cultural commonalities. Like Europeans. So, are all Europeans tainted when the head of one European country orders a murder? Is that my burden being a European? Answer=no.
Deleted UserOctober 14, 2018 at 23:07#2203460 likes
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Whether one expresses a high give-a-shit rating or not depends on the opportunity--a place and a time. Khashoggi is getting "official outrage" so that creates a bigger space for others to express their feelings. I'm pretty sure that firing on a bus of people (children, men, women, whoever) appalled a lot of people. The children were, for sure, not shooting at anybody. The whole Yemeni thing strikes me as appalling (but I don't know much about it). I don't know why there wasn't more "official outrage" about the children on the bus.
Deleted UserOctober 15, 2018 at 04:50#2204500 likes
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LD SaundersOctober 15, 2018 at 15:14#2205170 likes
I'm just curious. The Arabs are a large group and it is my understanding that there are various Arab groups with their own cultural norms and histories. Are you saying that all Arab groups had this custom regarding guests or just one such group or a small number of them?
Deleted UserOctober 15, 2018 at 20:04#2205770 likes
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I think the title of this thread is unfortunate, but wanted to make a comment on the story at its centre. This morning's news is that Trump has deployed his familiar 'lets muddy the waters' technique - 'anyone could have done it'! (Maybe even Hillary supporters! Who knows!) Trump spoke to the King, and then suggested that 'rogue killers' were behind it; the Saudi royal family seems to be lining up a 'senior intelligence official' to blame, so as to shield the Crown Prince from accusation. A career intelligence bureaucrat is executed by firing squad, face is saved, the US arms deal is saved - God knows that billions of dollars are worth more than any mere life - and we can all resume normal programming.
Deleted UserOctober 15, 2018 at 21:44#2206180 likes
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Reply to LD Saunders I don't know for sure -- so why am I bothering to respond then, one might ask? Just to say that it is my impression that hospitality has been part of the general semitic cultural norm for a long time. (Semitic includes both Arabs and Jews). Remember, part of the problem with Sodom and Gomorrah (gay slogan: Sodom today, Gomorrah the world) was a lack of hospitality.
Deleted UserOctober 16, 2018 at 15:24#2207730 likes
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Deleted UserOctober 16, 2018 at 18:04#2207950 likes
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Reply to Baden
One way to see and to show this fallacy is to change taxonomic levels and see how it looks then. Is the Welsh Assembly Government a representative of all Celts or all people of Indo-European culture? How about all humans?
Comments (22)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Worst offenders are actually the Central American countries.
This is not about the "Arabs", it's about the Saudi Arabian government. Just as criticism of Israel is not about the "Jews", it's about the Israeli government. Blaming "Arabs" for something that was likely directed by the leadership of one (of many) Arab states and drawing conclusions of hypocrisy with respect to their customs on that basis is a very unfair generalization. It's about as sensible as blaming Irish people for something the Welsh government did because we're all Celts.
What? Nice fallacy of association there. Is there anything in your post to discuss or are you just venting?
Quoting tim wood
No, you have associated Arabs with murderers. This is not morally free-standing, neutral rhetoric. Not knowing your "identity" or the one foisted on you, all I can say is you won't get this unless you're called everyday to justify, account for, or apologize for "belonging" to a group associated with some heinous activities. It's like...
Quoting tim wood
...associating black American with rapists and murderers then asking them to begin speaking out on behalf of the "community" which those bad apples represent. Who the heck are you to say this constitutes a "community" and that these guys "represent" that community? The claim itself is a racist maneuver, as is the sense that you get to calmly and logically decide what murderers I am and am not associated with on the basis of my "race". At the very least it represents a sort of racial insensitivity, an incapacity to understand the burden of having strong negative associations foisted on you by every stranger you meet for reasons of race, ethnicity, religion, etc.
Quoting tim wood
Well, yeah, because you're throwing racist claims out there that artificially prop up the notion that there's a community burdened by moral complicity with heinous crimes where no such community exists. Throwing off that burden will mean fighting racism, especially fighting the sort of surreptitious racism you're engaging in here.
Quoting tim wood
Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about here. What you're doing is the equivalent of associating Japanese-Americans with Pearl Harbor. When we concern ourselves with slavery we're not making blanket statements about race but rather about the nature and history of a practice, its moral ramifications in the present, and how to overcome the moral advantages and burdens that this has unfairly distributed to certain citizens.
You're not asking "What is it about the political practices in Saudi Arabia that enabled this tragedy to happen?" but calling on anyone associated with Arabs ethnically or religiously to assume responsibility for a particular government's brazen act of cruelty.
Quoting tim wood
Quite the courtesy. (Again, the experience of racism: This reads as deeply condescending, and not in the sort of way that can be diffused by appeal to your "intentions".)
I have read reports that allowing Saudis to attend cinema or allowing women to drive cars is window-dressing. It's strategic window-dressing: just enough to make it appear that reform is happening. In actuality, the Saudi royal thuggery rigidly suppress any criticism of the regime. This isn't new.
Trump is worried that if we criticize the Saudi too severely, they will take their military purchases elsewhere. They probably would react that way. It isn't as if there aren't any other military manufacturers at the world arms bazaar. Personally, I think we're far to involved in the world arms trade as it is. And if Trump is worried about arms sales, I'm sure Iran could have taken up some of the slack if the Grand Asshole of Washington hadn't scuttled the nuclear weapons deal with Iran.
What's even worse was their bombing of a bus full of Yemeni school children (with American bombs). Odd that no-one gave a shit about that. But whatever gets people to wake up to the hideousness of this regime, I'm all for. And yes, this "Arab guest" angle is a perverse way to approach the issue @tim wood. This has nothing to do with Arab culture and nothing to do with being Arabic in general. It was (or at least the evidence strongly points to it being) a purely political act not beyond any brutal regime regardless of origin.
It's not because that implies (despite your protestations to the contrary) that Arabs in general are in some way responsible for the murder, which is absurd. Besides which, Arabs are not even one community in any sense except under a rather arbitrary geographical designation with some cultural commonalities. Like Europeans. So, are all Europeans tainted when the head of one European country orders a murder? Is that my burden being a European? Answer=no.
Whether one expresses a high give-a-shit rating or not depends on the opportunity--a place and a time. Khashoggi is getting "official outrage" so that creates a bigger space for others to express their feelings. I'm pretty sure that firing on a bus of people (children, men, women, whoever) appalled a lot of people. The children were, for sure, not shooting at anybody. The whole Yemeni thing strikes me as appalling (but I don't know much about it). I don't know why there wasn't more "official outrage" about the children on the bus.
One way to see and to show this fallacy is to change taxonomic levels and see how it looks then. Is the Welsh Assembly Government a representative of all Celts or all people of Indo-European culture? How about all humans?