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The Question

creativesoul September 27, 2018 at 02:14 4175 views 12 comments
This seems to be where much of philosophy has been hung...

Comments (12)

Deleted User September 27, 2018 at 02:51 #215589
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creativesoul September 27, 2018 at 04:24 #215601
What makes it new?
khaled September 27, 2018 at 12:40 #215653
No, what possible way is there to communicate knowledge without language. Inventing new words counts as "dependent on language"
unenlightened September 27, 2018 at 12:47 #215657
One learns how to talk. Necessarily, one comes to know one's first language without a language.

Or at the very least, one's first few words.
Baden September 27, 2018 at 12:54 #215662
Reply to creativesoul

On a basic definition, of course:

"Knowledge=facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject."

Skills, for example, can clearly be independent or not fully dependent on language. Babies function before they can speak.
Moliere September 27, 2018 at 13:01 #215666
Reply to creativesoul One way to acquire knowledge of orange juice is to taste the orange juice -- then you'd know how the orange juice tastes.
creativesoul September 29, 2018 at 10:09 #216411
Quoting unenlightened
One learns how to talk. Necessarily, one comes to know one's first language without a language.


Yes, all of what language acquisition requires in order to begin happening exists prior to and/or emerges simultaneously with language acquisition itself. We can acquire knowledge of these things...


Quoting Baden
Skills, for example, can clearly be independent or not fully dependent on language. Babies function before they can speak.


Yes, some functions/functioning happens prior to language. We can acquire knowledge of such functioning...


Quoting Moliere
One way to acquire knowledge of orange juice is to taste the orange juice -- then you'd know how the orange juice tastes.


How would we go about reasoning that knowing how the orange juice tastes is knowledge of something that exists prior to language? Orange juice certainly is not existentially dependent upon language. The act of tasting orange juice is not existentially dependent upon language either. So a language less creature can drink orange juice. Does drinking orange juice provide knowledge of how it tastes? Lots of creatures can drink orange juice.

Seems we need a criterion.
Marchesk September 29, 2018 at 10:26 #216414
Quoting creativesoul
Can we acquire knowledge of that which is not existentially dependent upon language?


Animals can, we're animals, ergo obviously yes. It's just very useful for us to put that knowledge into language.

Quoting creativesoul
3.1k
This seems to be where much of philosophy has been hung...


One can see that as a symptom of philosophers being hung up over words, since disagreement so often hangs on the meaning of words.
Dfpolis September 29, 2018 at 14:55 #216462
It is simple. We are aware of the action of objects on us in experience. This awareness guarantees that the object can act to inform us as it is acting to inform us.
Michael Ossipoff October 08, 2018 at 02:09 #218655
Reply to creativesoul

Of course. Accidentally trip on a hole in the lawn that you didn't know about. Now you know not to step there, without having been told it in any language.

Michael Ossipoff
prothero October 08, 2018 at 02:56 #218665
Language is merely our effort to record or communicate our experience of the world to others.
We can acquire direct experience (thus knowledge and memory) without language and many have.
Language is in fact a poor substitute for direct personal experience.
Moliere October 09, 2018 at 14:23 #219112
Quoting creativesoul
How would we go about reasoning that knowing how the orange juice tastes is knowledge of something that exists prior to language? Orange juice certainly is not existentially dependent upon language. The act of tasting orange juice is not existentially dependent upon language either. So a language less creature can drink orange juice. Does drinking orange juice provide knowledge of how it tastes? Lots of creatures can drink orange juice.

Seems we need a criterion.


I am inclined to call this sort of thing knowledge. We gain knowledge by doing, by seeing, by exploring. And I was focusing on experience because it seems odd to me to call experience propositional -- I'm sure that experience is molded by language, but I wouldn't say that this knowledge existentially depends on language.

That is, the dog can know what orange juice tastes like too.

I'm not so certain about needing a criteria, either. I'm inclined to say that we know things, and from said knowledge we then build theories of knowledge. The criteria arrived at are the theories of knowledge, rather than the measure of judgment for what counts as knowledge or not.