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Marx's Value Theory

fdrake September 10, 2018 at 08:47 14175 views 229 comments
I've decided to revisit Marx's value theory after a long absence of dealing with it. The central features of Marx's value theory are presented in Capital Vol 1 Chapter 3. I'm assuming that readers of this thread are sufficiently familiar with basic Marxist concepts that I don't need to introduce them. First I'm going to go through the text, annotating and summarising. Second I'll condense what I've written into some summaries and exegesis.

Unlike the exegesis of Marx inspired value theory you find in the literature, I frame things mathematically where appropriate. So here we go.

Throughout this work, I assume, for the sake of simplicity, gold as the money-commodity.


I've seen it claimed that Marx's value theory no longer works because we transitioned from gold to paper money. You can see from the start that this is based on a misreading (though you can find Marxists that reject the value theory because of its reliance on the gold standard). Marx thinks of the gold as an exemplar of the money-commodity rather than its essential constitution.

The first chief function of money is to supply commodities with the material for the expression of their values, or to represent their values as magnitudes of the same denomination, qualitatively equal, and quantitatively comparable. It thus serves as a universal measure of value. And only by virtue of this function does gold, the equivalent commodity par excellence, become money.


It's quite easy to pass this over without noticing some subtleties. Money supplies commodities with the material for expression of their values. Contained in this statement is the underlying assertion that the expression of the values of commodities must always have a physical form, even if value is an ideal category; real abstraction in the jargon.

Reading with a Deleuzian lens, a real abstraction can be thought of as composite series correlated over different ontological strata. EG: The attribution of Tesla's stock tanking (even more) to Elon Musk smoking a blunt with Joe Rogan couples: (social norms of competence and leadership in business) with (the physical consumption of a particular good; pot), (the aggregate of those two sub processes to a negative opinion), (the negative opinion being expressed in the 'animal spirits' of the stock market), which finds its economic expression in the selling of Tesla stock and their subsequent reduction in value. The metaphysics of capital regularly couples processes with different 'substances', and this metaphysics occurs as part of the development of capital.

Much could be said about the use of 'expression' as a substitution for dealing with how one ontological stratum pulls others with it, suffice to say for now that the analysis works so long as the bracketed events are (strongly) correlated and did indeed happen; in absence of any metaphysical guarantees.

It is not money that renders commodities commensurable. Just the contrary. It is because all commodities, as values, are realised human labour, and therefore commensurable, that their values can be measured by one and the same special commodity, and the latter be converted into the common measure of their values, i.e., into money. Money as a measure of value, is the phenomenal form that must of necessity be assumed by that measure of value which is immanent in commodities, labour-time. [1]


A commodity is equivalent to its price as expressed in money. This equivalence is as much an ideal equivalence of numerical equality as it is a social arrangement drives that numerical agreement. Spelling out this duality and claiming that it was recognised as a real feature of capital is essentially what footnote (1) does:

The question — Why does not money directly represent labour-time, so that a piece of paper may represent, for instance, x hours’ labour, is at bottom the same as the question why, given the production of commodities, must products take the form of commodities?



The ability for a money price to signal the equivalence of commodities in value is recognised to require the equivalence of commodities in value. This requires that productive activity be organised socially in a manner that produces values as well as useful goods and ties the two together (in the above sense of creating and reinforcing a real abstraction). This references the previous chapters in Capital where Marx develops his distinction between use and exchange values, and tries to show that the money price of a commodity tracks the socially necessary labour time for its production.

Note that the claim here is as much empirical as it is metaphysical, Marx says that production under capital really is the production of values which are ultimately commensurable due to being products of labour. This sets the stage for the analysis of surplus value extraction.

It's also often said that the extraction of surplus value is what ensures that a capitalist mode of production creates value. While it's true that the extraction of surplus value creates a numerical excess of values there still needs to be an account of the conformability of the commodities in terms of their value; this requires both a historical and a logical component, Marx accounts for both of these later.

An under appreciated feature of surplus value extraction is that value must be calculable, which is facilitated by the most developed value forms.

The expression of the value of a commodity in gold — x commodity A = y money-commodity — is its money-form or price. A single equation, such as 1 ton of iron = 2 ounces of gold, now suffices to express the value of the iron in a socially valid manner. There is no longer any need for this equation to figure as a link in the chain of equations that express the values of all other commodities, because the equivalent commodity, gold, now has the character of money. The general form of relative value has resumed its original shape of simple or isolated relative value. On the other hand, the expanded expression of relative value, the endless series of equations, has now become the form peculiar to the relative value of the money-commodity. The series itself, too, is now given, and has social recognition in the prices of actual commodities. We have only to read the quotations of a price-list backwards, to find the magnitude of the value of money expressed in all sorts of commodities. But money itself has no price. In order to put it on an equal footing with all other commodities in this respect, we should be obliged to equate it to itself as its own equivalent.



Imagine we've stepped back in time before the capitalist mode of production was widely adopted, we still have trade networks. Networks of trade provide (somewhat location specific) series of equivalences of possible trades. Like 2 sheep = 1 cow, say. Cows could be traded for others things, say 2 cows for 5 pigs, and the total set of pairs of goods which will be traded is termed the 'expanded form' of value. This does not require that we say 1 cow is equal to 2.5 pigs as a matter of concrete history, but it does contain within it the logical (and real) possibility of commensurating these goods as expressions of an underlying value.

As Marx points out, though:

On the other hand, the expanded expression of relative value, the endless series of equations, has now become the form peculiar to the relative value of the money-commodity. The series itself, too, is now given, and has social recognition in the prices of actual commodities


the commensuration of the trade networks and the expression of each network as a specific value is a feature of value in the capitalist mode of production.

The different forms of value operative in Marx's analysis are simultaneously logical determinations about trade and the social embodiment of those logical determinations. Assume we have a set of all goods X, and we have a relation T on X which codifies which specific goods can be traded for other specific goods.

The simple form of value is the mere establishment that an amount of a good is as valuable as itself; and of the equivalence of that good to another in a specific trade. This means T consists of all pairs of goods which have actually been traded, in absence of any merely ideal equivalences. This means that the simple form of value has T consisting of all pairs of goods with themselves, and the various concrete trades which have happened. It is the minimal reflexive relation on the set X with some unstructured (read, historically specific to specific barter economies) bumf. This is more of a logical assumption about value than the description of a historical circumstance of value, even as it is contained in trade from barter economies up.

The relative form of value is the establishment that an amount of a good x and another good y are as valuable as each other. This means that T consists of all pairs of goods which can be traded, and of each good with itself as a pure marker of the existence of commensurability. When we have the relative form of value, we can take an amount of a good x and construct the set:

[math]\{ y \in X | xTy \}[/math]

also noting that if xTy then yTx logically and concretely as modelling the stance agents holding those goods and trading them take. This establishes for the first time the symmetry of the value relation. It is now symmetric and reflexive.

Note at this point that there is no guarantee of transitivity, this means that the following implication does not yet apply:

[math] xTy \& yTz \rightarrow xTz [/math]

due to the local specifities of trade. It might be that 1 cow here is 3 sheep, but in a colder place perhaps 2 sheep are 1 cow. The form of value here has various non-commensurable trade networks built in as a feature.

The price or money-form of commodities is, like their form of value generally, a form quite distinct from their palpable bodily form; it is, therefore, a purely ideal or mental form. Although invisible, the value of iron, linen and corn has actual existence in these very articles: it is ideally made perceptible by their equality with gold, a relation that, so to say, exists only in their own heads. Their owner must, therefore, lend them his tongue, or hang a ticket on them, before their prices can be communicated to the outside world. [2] Since the expression of the value of commodities in gold is a merely ideal act, we may use for this purpose imaginary or ideal money. Every trader knows, that he is far from having turned his goods into money, when he has expressed their value in a price or in imaginary money, and that it does not require the least bit of real gold, to estimate in that metal millions of pounds’ worth of goods. When, therefore, money serves as a measure of value, it is employed only as imaginary or ideal money. This circumstance has given rise to the wildest theories. [3] But, although the money that performs the functions of a measure of value is only ideal money, price depends entirely upon the actual substance that is money. The value, or in other words, the quantity of human labour contained in a ton of iron, is expressed in imagination by such a quantity of the money-commodity as contains the same amount of labour as the iron. According, therefore, as the measure of value is gold, silver, or copper, the value of the ton of iron will be expressed by very different prices, or will be represented by very different quantities of those metals respectively.


Combining the previous 2 things I bolded highlights the non-transitivity of the expanded value relation due to an insistence on concrete capacities for trade as relative values. In reverse order:

The price or money-form of commodities is, like their form of value generally, a form quite distinct from their palpable bodily form; it is, therefore, a purely ideal or mental form. Although invisible, the value of iron, linen and corn has actual existence in these very articles: it is ideally made perceptible by their equality with gold, a relation that, so to say, exists only in their own heads.

There is no longer any need for this equation to figure as a link in the chain of equations that express the values of all other commodities, because the equivalent commodity, gold, now has the character of money.


And inversely, it caricatures the money form thusly: the money form consists in applying this transitivity condition in the abstract (which was always a real possibility of the expanded form) and in the aggregate agreeing to and applying this transitivity condition. It is only at this point that value as a universal equivalent emerges in the analysis. Everything becomes commensurate with gold, just as gold becomes commensurate with everything. This universal commensurability is a precondition for the development of any money commodity, and the universal commensurability becomes a concrete social practice to the extent that one commodity is really used for the expression of value for all things in the expanded form.

Note that pre-capitalist trade networks, when exposed to trade which features the universal equivalent form of value can be forced to adopt this valuation partly because the universal equivalent is both a logical and real possibility of any trade network (as characterised by the expanded form). A good historical example here is the Jicarilla War and the subjugation of the Apaches for the extraction of gold, which in turn imposed gold as the money commodity through its facilitation as a differential trade advantage bought in blood.

Edit: the 'myth of barter' is somewhat of a given in Marx, and should be criticised. However, criticising it doesn't do too much to the rest of the analysis: it doesn't matter that barter economies in the 17-1800s and contemporary bourgeoise economic textbook myth sense didn't really exist. This is because the myth of barter is just a conceptual stepping stone for Marx to get to more of the meaty bits.

Edit2: It's also somewhat artificial to aggregate all elements of simple barter into a relation T at that point, since the aggregation of such barters is what gives the first expression of the relative and equivalent forms of value as a trade network. The reflexivity condition could be included later, as Marx would probably see it as a bad retrojection. Regardless, I'll leave it as it is.

Comments (229)

fdrake September 10, 2018 at 09:37 #211546
Another feature to highlight is that value is a real abstraction, it's tightly coupled with the commodity and 'comes along with it'. This is why you can't dissect a commodity to ascertain its value from its constituent parts (even though those constituent parts can be valued to the extent they are commodities, eventually, in the aggregate, yielding values of production as expressed in direct price).

So long as the money commodity functions in a manner modelled well by Marx's descriptions, it doesn't matter what it is.

If, therefore, two different commodities, such as gold and silver, are simultaneously measures of value, all commodities have two prices — one a gold-price, the other a silver-price. These exist quietly side by side, so long as the ratio of the value of silver to that of gold remains unchanged, say, at 15:1. Every change in their ratio disturbs the ratio which exists between the gold-prices and the silver-prices of commodities, and thus proves, by facts, that a double standard of value is inconsistent with the functions of a standard.


This is to say that so long as silver and gold remain in a constant ratio of value, the transitivity condition of T isn't violated. If I could spend 1 gram of gold to obtain 2 grams of silver, but then 2 grams of silver to obtain 2 grams of gold, silver would then be worth the same as gold, but at the start it wasn't. Being able to make the final conclusion that 'silver would then be worth the same as gold' but that it also was worth half of gold is simultaneously an insistence on the general equivalent as a transitive standard of price and the failure of this standard as a real event.

We have (1g gold T 2g silver), (2g silver 2g gold), in order to say 'oh shit 1g silver = 1g gold' we need to be able to insist on the transitivity condition, and this also allows us to insist that 1g of gold is worth 2g of gold. So long as the fluctuations in these commodities are sufficiently slow and the relative value fluctuations are relatively minor this doesn't cause issue. However sufficiently variable fluctuations of the values of representative commodities; those which serve as a standard of price; give rise to all kinds of madness in a capitalist economy. A contemporary issue related to this is the Venezuelan hyper-inflation; the value of money is decreasing far more rapidly than any change in median/lower quartile wage can adjust to. Footnote [4] is a historical example of this internal problem of capitalism:

“Wherever gold and silver have by law been made to perform the function of money or of a measure of value side by side, it has always been tried, but in vain, to treat them as one and the same material. To assume that there is an invariable ratio between the quantities of gold and silver in which a given quantity of labour-time is incorporated, is to assume in fact, that gold and silver are of one and the same material, and that a given mass of the less valuable metal, silver, is a constant fraction of a given mass of gold. From the reign of Edward III. to the time of George II., the history of money in England consists of one long series of perturbations caused by the clashing of the legally fixed ratio between the values of gold and silver, with the fluctuations in their real values. At one time gold was too high, at another, silver. The metal that for the time being was estimated below its value, was withdrawn from circulation, mated and exported. The ratio between the two metals was then again altered by law, but the new nominal ratio soon came into conflict again with the real one. In our own times, the slight and transient fall in the value of gold compared with silver, which was a consequence of the Indo-Chinese demand for silver, produced on a far more extended scale in France the same phenomena, export of silver, and its expulsion from circulation by gold. During the years 1855, 1856 and 1857, the excess in France of gold-imports over gold-exports amounted to £41,580,000, while the excess of silver-exports over silver-imports was £14,704,000. In fact, in those countries in which both metals are legally measures of value, and therefore both legal tender, so that everyone has the option of paying in either metal, the metal that rises in value is at a premium, and, like every other commodity, measures its price in the over-estimated metal which alone serves in reality as the standard of value. The result of all experience and history with regard to this equation is simply that, where two commodities perform by law the functions of a measure of value, in practice one alone maintains that position.” (Karl Marx, l.c., pp. 52, 53.)


When people say 'internal contradictions of capital', this is an example of what they mean. Capital has a logic, but that logic isn't completely consistent with how capital actually operates.

Commodities with definite prices present themselves under the form: a commodity A = x gold; b commodity B = z gold; c commodity C = y gold, &c., where a, b, c, represent definite quantities of the commodities A, B, C and x, z, y, definite quantities of gold. The values of these commodities are, therefore, changed in imagination into so many different quantities of gold. Hence, in spite of the confusing variety of the commodities themselves, their values become magnitudes of the same denomination, gold-magnitudes. They are now capable of being compared with each other and measured, and the want becomes technically felt of comparing them with some fixed quantity of gold as a unit measure. This unit, by subsequent division into aliquot parts, becomes itself the standard or scale. Before they become money, gold, silver, and copper already possess such standard measures in their standards of weight, so that, for example, a pound weight, while serving as the unit, is, on the one hand, divisible into ounces, and, on the other, may be combined to make up hundredweights. [5] It is owing to this that, in all metallic currencies, the names given to the standards of money or of price were originally taken from the pre-existing names of the standards of weight.


We're now in a position to look at T again and see what properties it has: it is reflexive (all things can be traded for themselves), symmetric (if x can be traded for y then y can be traded for x) and transitive (if x can be traded for y and y can be traded for z, then x can be traded for z). This characterises T as an equivalence relation; the canonical example of an equivalence relation is of numerical equality. 1+1=2=3-1=4-2. With the establishment of T as an equivalence relation this facilitates trade with the logical structure of representatives.

A brief detour into mathematics. Representatives are an important part of the algebra of addition and multiplication of fractions. There are so many fractions representing equal values: 1,2/2,3/3,4/4..., what allows us to substitute one for the other; to do calculations with them? Well, we could do before the axiomatisation of the rationals, but the conceptual character of substituting equal things into equations is what is captured by the idea of an equivalence class. An equivalence class of a number is the set of all numbers equal to it; similarly the equivalence class of a fraction is the set of all fractions equal to it. The equivalence class of a number is denoted by putting square brackets around it. Explicitly this gives:

[math][1]=\{1,2/2,3/3,4/4,...\}[/math]

and the algebra of fractions is then defined on the equivalence classes. Since everything in an equivalence class is equal it gives the collection of things which can be substituted for it verbatim in any expression. If we define addition, subtraction, multiplication and division on the equivalence classes of fractions, then we can do all the algebra with fractions that we learn in school. This lets you say things like:

[math][1]+[2]=[1+2]=[3][/math]

Equivalence classes are also either equal or share no common elements. This is to say that if we have something like (4-3)/2=2/4, we immediately have [(4-3)/2]=[2/4]; the relation of the elements entails the equality of the equivalence classes. Similarly 1/2 != 1/3 ensures [1/2] and [1/3] share no common elements. This allows us to define the idea of a representative of an equivalence class; which is just a canonical element we elect somewhat arbitrarily to denote that class.

Look at how Marx introduces an algebra of values (divisions into hundredweights) just after he invoked the transitivity condition! He's performing manipulations of (nominal) trade networks (the expanded form) by dealing with numerical and concrete divisions of a representative commodity. This works to characterise a trade network because gold is the money commodity...

The money commodity is that commodity which serves as the canonical representative for a network of trades of equivalent value. Moreover, the potential for a trade network to develop a money commodity is always there when that trade network functions in accordance with the expanded form, simply by requiring the transitivity of trade relations as a valuation of goods, and a convenient commodity to serve as the representative.

The impact of this is quite large; if a supposedly post-capitalist, post-revolution economy can interface with a capitalist economy through trades of equivalent value, it will still be a subjected to some of the process of capital; as the economies will couple. This is a good reason not to be a Leninist.


fdrake September 10, 2018 at 10:12 #211547
I'm beginning to think it might be worthwhile to go back and do Chapter 2 afterwards, since that introduces the different forms of value. Anyway:

As measure of Value, and as standard of price, money has two entirely distinct functions to perform. It is the measure of value inasmuch as it is the socially recognised incarnation of human labour; it is the standard of price inasmuch as it is a fixed weight of metal. As the measure of value it serves to convert the values of all the manifold commodities into prices, into imaginary quantities of gold; as the standard of price it measures those quantities of gold. The measure of values measures commodities considered as values; the standard of price measures, on the contrary, quantities of gold by a unit quantity of gold, not the value of one quantity of gold by the weight of another. In order to make gold a standard of price, a certain weight must be fixed upon as the unit. In this case, as in all cases of measuring quantities of the same denomination, the establishment of an unvarying unit of measure is all-important. Hence, the less the unit is subject to variation, so much the better does the standard of price fulfil its office. But only in so far as it is itself a product of labour, and, therefore, [b]potentially variable in value, can gold serve as a measure of value.[/b][6]


Money functions as a measure of value since it renders a network of commodities as an exchangeable network of commodities; it is a standard of price inasmuch as that exchangeable network has a canonical representative as an amount of a money commodity. The commodities must be partly composed of exchange values in order for those exchange values to be commensurable under the banner of value (as congealed labour in the abstract, as effortful time expenditure). Their numerical commensurability (being members of the same equivalence class) is logically prior to their representation as a specific amount of a representative commodity, but once a representative (money)commodity is established it prefigures all goods as commensurable (buyable) in specific amounts.

It's also sometimes assumed that Marx can't account for deviations from the socially necessary labour time as expressed in direct price, but he contains such deviations as part of his account. He is fully aware that fluctuations of prices and of values occur, and constrains those fluctuations explicitly as part of the usual functioning of money as the standard of price. For Marx, amounts of labour required for production are the basis for which different amounts of the same commodity attain different values (but note, explicitly, not different prices alone, my bolding at the end). Prices can decouple from values, this is a feature of the analysis, not a bug.

This is another of those contradictions of capital people harp on about. The possibility of decoupling of value and price tout court gives the real possibility of large decouplings and pathologies. These invariably result in social tensions. This is why Marxists think it is important to look at the 'internal contradictions of capital'; like the pathological ways price and value can diverge; because those structural tensions in how capital works produce social tensions in the real world.


fdrake September 10, 2018 at 15:01 #211569
It is, in the first place, quite clear that a change in the value of gold does not, in any way, affect its function as a standard of price. No matter how this value varies, the proportions between the values of different quantities of the metal remain constant. However great the fall in its value, 12 ounces of gold still have 12 times the value of 1 ounce; and in prices, the only thing considered is the relation between different quantities of gold. Since, on the other hand, no rise or fall in the value of an ounce of gold can alter its weight, no alteration can take place in the weight of its aliquot parts. Thus gold always renders the same service as an invariable standard of price, however much its value may vary.


I'm going to go off on a bit of a digression/rant here.

This has a mathematical representation in terms of the cancellation of fractions. If x gold is worth 5 cows is worth 10 pigs, then if x decreases 5 cows is still worth 10 pigs. Changing x doesn't change the amount of each commodity that each other commodity is worth, it just changes the overall standing of that equivalence class with respect to others.

Another mathematical note at this point: increases and decreases of commodity money price only make sense on the background of an ordering relation of values and prices. This ordering comes from two places; first there is an ordering in terms of the measure of value, which is a value expression of the different amounts of labour congealed in the commodities. Then there is the ordering on the standard of price; which is an ordering of the amount of the money commodity fixed to each equivalence class. That the money commodity is the representative of the first gives the ability to evaluate the different equivalence classes in terms of the raw amount of their representative. When we speak about the self valorisation of capital; capital appearing to the capitalist (and itself) as M-C-M' where M'>M this is what gives the logical structure under which that comparison is made.

The expansion of values and its concomitant concentration of values makes sense upon the background of the algebraic structure of value, that it forms a duality of calculable structures of labour times and money prices that jointly constrain each other without solely determining the other. The formal name for this calculable structure is an ordered field, the most common example of which is the real line (which, conveniently, is the numerical system for the representation and modelling of values). The requirements of perpetual valorisation destroy even the physical form of the money commodity, as more and more value is created the amount of value exceeds any limit; thus as a practical consequence paper moneys and then information moneys come to dominate.

In the second place, a change in the value of gold does not interfere with its functions as a measure of value. The change affects all commodities simultaneously, and, therefore, caeteris paribus, leaves their relative values inter se, unaltered, although those values are now expressed in higher or lower gold-prices.


This is a restatement that a change in gold doesn't change the relative value of commodities, but it changes how much a set of commodities of equivalent value are worth. The 'spending power' of the money commodity has its origin here.

Just as when we estimate the value of any commodity by a definite quantity of the use-value of some other commodity, so in estimating the value of the former in gold, we assume nothing more than that the production of a given quantity of gold costs, at the given period, a given amount of labour. As regards the fluctuations of prices generally, they are subject to the laws of elementary relative value investigated in a former chapter.


The elementary relative form of value is sort of like direct barter. Imagine if you took the previous conception of the elementary form from a previous post but instead made that trade as a trade of equivalent exchange values rather than through a utility comparison. When Marx says the fluctuations obey the elementary value form it's important to see what there isn't in the elementary form in a capitalist economy that there is in the dual standard of price and measure of value form.

This comes down to the possibility of the failure of the symmetry condition due to non-negligible fluctuations in short time periods of the prices; buy now get a lot more for it later! Or a lot less. It also removes the transitivity condition, as the infinity of imagined conduct of the same no longer occurs due to these instabilities. A commodity is, however, still worth exactly the same amount of itself, so reflexivity persists through time. The instabilities curtail the possibilities of trade at a given time period, so the trade relation T becomes more subject to local effects and interventions. It is no longer behaving much like the model, but the logic of capital can still exert social forces despite (and sometimes because of) the concrete failure of its mechanisms.
Pierre-Normand September 10, 2018 at 17:01 #211589
This is awesome. Please, keep going ;-)
ssu September 10, 2018 at 17:28 #211594
There are many problems with Marx, but here I guess the problem is that Marx takes the classical view of money while in todays World money is debt.
fdrake September 10, 2018 at 17:37 #211595
There are a couple of bits I want to address in in what's come so far. The first is of how use and exchange values intermingle as part of capitalist production, the second is in how the value form itself is the ur form of commodity fetishism (rather than treating commodity fetishism as a purely social phenomena).

In chapter 2 of capital Marx writes:

What chiefly distinguishes a commodity from its owner is the fact, that it looks upon every other commodity as but the form of appearance of its own value. A born leveller and a cynic, it is always ready to exchange not only soul (exchange value), but body (use value), with any and every other commodity, be the same more repulsive than Maritornes herself. The owner makes up for this lack in the commodity of a sense of the concrete, by his own five and more senses. His commodity possesses for himself no immediate use-value. Otherwise, he would not bring it to the market. It has use-value for others; but for himself its only direct use-value is that of being a depository of exchange-value, and, consequently, a means of exchange.[3] Therefore, he makes up his mind to part with it for commodities whose value in use is of service to him. All commodities are non-use-values for their owners, and use-values for their non-owners. Consequently, they must all change hands. But this change of hands is what constitutes their exchange, and the latter puts them in relation with each other as values, and realises them as values. Hence commodities must be realised as values before they can be realised as use-values.


The use value of labour in the relation C-M-C', the non-capitalist perspective, is to obtain goods and services. The use value of the commodity in M-C-M', the capitalist perspective, is to obtain more money. The latter is an essential component of capitalist production tout court; things are produced not for their use values, but for their (exchange) values. The dual nature of the commodity in use and exchange also mirrors the dual nature of the stand points that agents can have toward capital. Marx explicitly contrasts this to Aristotle in the third footnote in chapter 2:

“For two-fold is the use of every object.... The one is peculiar to the object as such, the other is not, as a sandal which may be worn, and is also exchangeable. Both are uses of the sandal, for even he who exchanges the sandal for the money or food he is in want of, makes use of the sandal as a sandal. But not in its natural way. For it has not been made for the sake of being exchanged.”


Secondly, commodity fetishism. The 'Marxism for dummies' way of summarising it in a bunch of buzzwords is that 'The social relations between people become the material relations between things'. While it has lots of mediating steps with labour and its social organisation, the commensurability in terms of value of a wage labourer's work with the money they receive is a manifestation of money as the representative of value equivalence classes. Think of how different the world would be if different equivalence classes of values held; how different the features of industry are, changes in the extent of mechanisation and the global demography of the labour force. All of this manifests in money. And money has that power because it's the canonical representative of trade networks!

Commodity fetishism is a real possibility as soon as an economy's value form becomes an expanded trade network.

fdrake September 10, 2018 at 17:46 #211600
Reply to ssu

Money has always been intimately tied to debt. EG, owing the ruling body taxes in terms of raw goods. I'm going to sidestep this for now.
frank September 10, 2018 at 18:09 #211604
Quoting fdrake
Money functions as a measure of value since it renders a network of commodities as an exchangeable network of commodities; it is a standard of price inasmuch as that exchangeable network has a canonical representative as an amount of a money commodity.


Having a gold standard limits the money supply and reinforces confidence in the currency. And that's what money basically is made of: confidence. That's why it's tied to a political entity that can establish social order and enforce merchant law.

As for the roller coaster that starts with the abandonment of a standard: it's all psychology.
fdrake September 10, 2018 at 18:12 #211605
The next paragraph is essentially a bit of bookkeeping.

A general rise in the prices of commodities can result only, either from a rise in their values — the value of money remaining constant — or from a fall in the value of money, the values of commodities remaining constant. On the other hand, a general fall in prices can result only, either from a fall in the values of commodities — the value of money remaining constant — or from a rise in the value of money, the values of commodities remaining constant. It therefore by no means follows, that a rise in the value of money necessarily implies a proportional fall in the prices of commodities; or that a fall in the value of money implies a proportional rise in prices. Such change of price holds good only in the case of commodities whose value remains constant. With those, for example, whose value rises, simultaneously with, and proportionally to, that of money, there is no alteration in price. And if their value rise either slower or faster than that of money, the fall or rise in their prices will be determined by the difference between the change in their value and that of money; and so on.


This is just saying that if the commodities in an equivalence class in general increase in in value then the value of the representative required to facilitate those trade relations also increases. Similarly (but not entirely symmetrically!), if the value of the representative increases without a concomitant increase in the commodity values then you can buy more with less.

Note that interventions that change the relative values of different commodities are quite a lot different from interventions that change the value of the money commodity. EG, Keynes diagnosis that (if his economics were followed more accurately...) quantitative easing produces some inflation. Or that hyper-inflation without a concomitant increase in wages impoverishes wage labourers.

This highlights something that's often missed: Marx's analysis is of capital ceteris paribus, he knows it doesn't live up to the abstraction sometimes. Failing to live up to the abstraction can have real effects (see previous posts).

A metaphor I think is useful here is to think of Marx's capital mostly as the analysis of an attractor in a dynamical system. If capital is functioning without weird shit going on, Marx thinks it will look like his model. If capital is dealing with some weird shit, it doesn't have to look exactly like the model.

Insert debate here about how capital makes use of crises and other radical interventions (like the introduction of railways). Another metaphor I find useful is of capital as an ecological generalist. It can thrive in a wide variety of conditions, so long as they are not sufficiently different to the abstraction Marx is analysing.

By degrees there arises a discrepancy between the current money-names of the various weights of the precious metal figuring as money, and the actual weights which those names originally represented. This discrepancy is the result of historical causes, among which the chief are: — (1) The importation of foreign money into an imperfectly developed community. This happened in Rome in its early days, where gold and silver coins circulated at first as foreign commodities. The names of these foreign coins never coincide with those of the indigenous weights. (2) As wealth increases, the less precious metal is thrust out by the more precious from its place as a measure of value, copper by silver, silver by gold, however much this order of sequence may be in contradiction with poetical chronology. [7] The word pound, for instance, was the money-name given to an actual pound weight of silver. When gold replaced silver as a measure of value, the same name was applied according to the ratio between the values of silver and gold, to perhaps 1-15th of a pound of gold. The word pound, as a money-name, thus becomes differentiated from the same word as a weight-name. [8] (3) The debasing of money carried on for centuries by kings and princes to such an extent that, of the original weights of the coins, nothing in fact remained but the names. [9]


Harken back to the first sentence in the chapter.

Throughout this work, I assume, for the sake of simplicity, gold as the money-commodity.


Marx is aware that something which for all intents and purposes counts as the value representative is the value representative. The debasement of currency 'saves money' by shaving off bits of value from the coin by changing is material constitution, while remaining something which counts as the coin. Of course, reality eventually catches up and the coins reduce in value as their material composition changes; coming to reflect the value of the constituents. We then have the introduction of paper money, which eases trade by not having to lug around loads of metal, but more importantly it can't be debased by changing its material constitution. It either counts as a paper money or it doesn't, you need other ways of controlling what it's worth.

In terms of the composition of global money now, though, the majority of it is information money; marks in digital ledgers. It appears as entirely divorced from anything material, but nevertheless functions in the way it does because it's still a real abstraction; it still has the social function of money.

Quoting frank
As for the roller coaster that starts with the abandonment of a standard: it's all psychology.


Yes. If everyone just stopped using that worthless piece of paper it wouldn't have any value! The psychology of treating it, and information money, as the representative of value equivalence classes is only part of what makes it work. There's the level of heritable tradition which also needs to be analysed, and also that paper money still has a use as a means of circulation of relatively small amounts of money. It's not just psychology, paper money and information money are a self-reinforcing system that occurs in reality, not just in the minds of us plebs.

Edit: Also, ironically, abandoning the gold standard occurred after so many 'reclaimable bonds' (money) were issued that their total value far outstripped any gold reserves. Capital grew until it expanded past a limitation, then it kept functioning in much the same way ceteris paribus - though it's no longer beholden to manifesting in any currency denomination's paper money (because it's now a real valued variable, like it always wanted to be in the ordered field), that's part of what was undermined before the switch. It doesn't care about the physical process of division of the money commodity any more.

fdrake September 10, 2018 at 18:23 #211607
Self indulgent coincidence:

The rational numbers, which serve as the numerical representation of the money commodities like gold, when they must be able to be physically split into smaller valued pieces, stopped being the appropriate ordered field to think about money values in the second economic analysis and forecasts were internalised as part of capital. The rational numbers can be used to arbitrarily approximate any real number, but the real numbers are what facilitate the mathematical machinery that represents capital to itself as an intellectual abstraction. This was mostly written so I could write the following sentence:

The extension of the needs of value past the representative capacity of fractions coincided with the extension of the field of fractions to the reals as the algebraic structure of value.
BC September 10, 2018 at 19:21 #211631
Reply to fdrake

Quoting Bitter Crank
the value of any currency is what the world's consensus of its value is. Value "jiggles" up and down continuously. Currency is connected to real stuff through what? Trade. A country which has (practically) nothing to sell is going to have a virtually worthless currency. If you sell stuff then you can buy stuff, and if you pay your bills, your money is good. Stop paying your bills and your currency might turn into cat litter. Value comes from the market.


The value of fiat currency comes from real production and trade. The cartoon desert island has nothing to sell, nobody wants to go there, and the two people there very much want to leave. "It" could declare a fiat currency but it could not be worth anything. But suppose the two castaways discovered that the desert island was composed of nothing but pockets of pure rare earths (lanthanum, praseodymium, neodymium, gadolinium, terbium, dysprosium,, ytterbium, and so forth). Now the desert island would have something to sell that was in demand, and with the income from selling it's ore they could buy stuff. It's fiat currency would be welcome everywhere.

"Having stuff to sell" doesn't guarantee that everything will work out just fine. Look at Venezuela. Even though Venezuela has stuff to sell, it was able--through centralized gross mismanagement--to end up in an economic shithole.
fdrake September 10, 2018 at 19:31 #211633
Reply to Bitter Crank

Quoting Bitter Crank
The value of fiat currency comes from real production and trade.


It does, but precisely how Marx thinks this works comes later in Capital. His theory of value is inseparable from the rest of the account IMO, even though some people do Marxist analysis without it.
ssu September 10, 2018 at 19:48 #211639
Quoting fdrake
Money has always been intimately tied to debt. EG, owing the ruling body taxes in terms of raw goods. I'm going to sidestep this for now.

Fine, sidestep it, but just to note that Marx has basically a theory of commodity money (just as you put it, taxes in terms of raw goods, and elsewhere) and this is very important to notice. This commodity money was a typical theory for the 19th Century as the gold standard reigned back then. Marx was obviously a child of his era at least in this case.

Yet money today is basically created as debt and the central banks themselves account just for a small portion of the money supply. Money supply of M1 is also just a small percentage of the whole money supply.

Quoting fdrake
If everyone just stopped using that worthless piece of paper it wouldn't have any value! The psychology of treating it, and information money, as the representative of value equivalence classes is only part of what makes it work. There's the level of heritable tradition which also needs to be analysed, and also that paper money still has a use as a means of circulation of relatively small amounts of money. It's not just psychology, paper money and information money are a self-reinforcing system that occurs in reality, not just in the minds of us plebs.

Well, people are using less and less of paper money anyway. Try going to a bank a getting a larger sum in cash: it's difficult. But as long as governments make it legal tender and do make people to pay taxes, there is a credibility behind that fiat money. Now we don't even have to have that as we have all these various invented cryptocurrencies.

Quoting fdrake
Also, ironically, abandoning the gold standard occurred after so many 'reclaimable bonds' (money) were issued that their total value far outstripped any gold reserves. Capital grew until it expanded past a limitation, then it kept functioning in much the same way ceteris paribus - though it's no longer beholden to manifesting in any currency denomination's paper money (because it's now a real valued variable, like it always wanted to be in the ordered field), that's part of what was undermined before the switch. It doesn't care about the physical process of division of the money commodity any more.

Yes, but the question is that why hasn't then money lost it's value? Or (perhaps this is ventures way off from the topic) why didn't we get a massive inflation after all the pumping up that happened after the last financial crisis?
fdrake September 11, 2018 at 06:17 #211713
Quoting ssu
Yes, but the question is that why hasn't then money lost it's value? Or (perhaps this is ventures way off from the topic) why didn't we get a massive inflation after all the pumping up that happened after the last financial crisis?


The quantitative easing that occurred as a result of the financial crisis in 2008 almost all ended up in the coffers of the very rich. It didn't influence the effective demand for most goods very much; people still needed what they needed. Nevertheless the story goes that due to the increased money supply for investment, the economy grew and prices increased as is usual; but the rising tide didn't raise all boats, as it usually does not. Keynes' idea came along with a lot of wealth redistribution*, and that wasn't implemented at all in the global financial crisis.

It's a complicated story to try and tell; money only loses most semblances of its value due to inflation when the inflation rate goes through the roof. I imagine this is a question of degree. Regardless, precisely how the recent financial crisis arose and how it effected things resists easy summary, like most events in economics.

*edit: Well, it did, but in the wrong direction. Rich got richer, poor got poorer.
fdrake September 11, 2018 at 10:34 #211738
Marx then highlights some themes in the evolution of the money commodity. One part of this is to show that the debasement of currency, rather than simply being a historical accident of the development of capitalist economies; a bug; is actually the manifestation of a feature of money in capitalist economies. Money tends toward greater and greater abstraction from the productive organisation that conditions it and in the final instance determines how it expresses value.

These historical causes convert the separation of the money-name from the weight-name into an established habit with the community. Since the standard of money is on the one hand purely conventional, and must on the other hand find general acceptance, it is in the end regulated by law. A given weight of one of the precious metals, an ounce of gold, for instance, becomes officially divided into aliquot parts, with legally bestowed names, such as pound, dollar, &c. These aliquot parts, which thenceforth serve as units of money, are then subdivided into other aliquot parts with legal names, such as shilling, penny, &c. [10] But, both before and after these divisions are made, a definite weight of metal is the standard of metallic money. The sole alteration consists in the subdivision and denomination.


It begins by noting a transformation in the money commodity's physical form and social constitution of its value, but throughout the transformation it still serves the social function of the money commodity and so operates in essentially the same manner as the money commodity. The literal meaning of, say, 'a pound', being a redeemable token of a pound weight of a precious metal, becomes a figurative meaning again while maintaining the same socio-economic functions. The rest is book-keeping.

However, one part of the book-keeping is extremely important.

Since the standard of money is on the one hand purely conventional, and must on the other hand find general acceptance, it is in the end regulated by law. These aliquot parts, which thenceforth serve as units of money, are then subdivided into other aliquot parts with legal names, such as shilling, penny, &c. [10] But, both before and after these divisions are made, a definite weight of metal is the standard of metallic money. The sole alteration consists in the subdivision and denomination.


Ensuring that the money commodity functions as the money commodity under arbitrary transformations of its physical form necessitates the intervention of the ruling classes to enforce the rules. This is foreshadowing of the critical role governing bodies play in maintaining the function of capital. A law that a paper token or information token, no longer redeemable as any physical good, is a codification of that which counts as money by fulfilling its social function. A necessary constituent of the organisation of money in a capitalist economy is the rule of law.

This is a good reason not to be an anarchocapitalist.


The prices, or quantities of gold, into which the values of commodities are ideally changed, are therefore now expressed in the names of coins, or in the legally valid names of the subdivisions of the gold standard. Hence, instead of saying: A quarter of wheat is worth an ounce of gold; we say, it is worth £3 17s. 10 1/2d. In this way commodities express by their prices how much they are worth, and money serves as money of account whenever it is a question of fixing the value of an article in its money-form. [11]


The loss of the ability to redeem a currency in terms of its correspondent amount of a precious metal serves to abstract the money commodity's social function from the social relations that make sense of the money commodity and the social function of the money commodity itself. This is another time Marx foreshadows the account of commodity fetishism and grounds it in his theory of value.

Another thing to keep track of here is his introduction of money of account, which is the price form expression of the value of an asset in a ledger.

Marx completes his tracing of the tendency of the money commodity to greater and greater abstraction (fetishism) with the next paragraph:

The name of a thing is something distinct from the qualities of that thing. I know nothing of a man, by knowing that his name is Jacob. In the same way with regard to money, every trace of a value-relation disappears in the names pound, dollar, franc, ducat, &c. The confusion caused by attributing a hidden meaning to these cabalistic signs is all the greater, because these money-names express both the values of commodities, and, at the same time, aliquot parts of the weight of the metal that is the standard of money. [12] On the other hand, it is absolutely necessary that value, in order that it may be distinguished from the varied bodily forms of commodities, should assume this material and unmeaning, but, at the same time, purely social form. [13]


The situation with fiat money, in both paper and information forms, is even more mystifying; but would be essentially the same. The value of a mass of fiat money, rather than being redeemable in a physical commodity, is still redeemable in terms of every buyable good. The social relations underpinning production, which vouchsafe the social function of money, are essentially the same in fiat currencies; just their regulation differs somewhat. And purely fiat moneys facilitate even more abstract representations of money amounts, just as they respond to the needs of value after it has evaporated what was presumed to be its physical basis.

What this reveals is that value; including currency; is not chiefly a physical relation of commodity amounts; it is a social function which enforces and represents exchange ratios of commodities and quantifies them irrelevant of any physical or numerical bounds on the magnitude of value. The money form was destined to be a real valued variable with a currency stamp on it.





iolo September 11, 2018 at 11:56 #211768
I'm impressed by the scholarship, but my upbringing in Marxism always stressed the unity of theory and practice. I am left, in my later years, to be just a person who knows a little about the subject, but no longer a Marxist because I am cut off from action. What, fdrake, would you see as the implications for practice?
fdrake September 11, 2018 at 12:09 #211774
Price is the money-name of the labour realised in a commodity. Hence the expression of the equivalence of a commodity with the sum of money constituting its price, is a tautology, [14] just as in general the expression of the relative value of a commodity is a statement of the equivalence of two commodities.


The abstraction that comes with the application of a money-name as a measure of value is present here too. Labour is baptised in value and emerges converted to money as the price of that labour. This is to say that just as commodities can be split into constituent parts, like the iPhone into its electronic schematics, it can be split into the labours that produce those parts. The sum total of the labours in the production of the commodity gives it an initial valuation; a direct price which closely tracks the measure of the total value of labour within that commodity.


But although price, being the exponent of the magnitude of a commodity’s value, is the exponent of its exchange-ratio with money, it does not follow that the exponent of this exchange-ratio is necessarily the exponent of the magnitude of the commodity’s value.


This harkens back to something Marx wrote at the very start of the chapter:

The first chief function of money is to supply commodities with the material for the expression of their values, or to represent their values as magnitudes of the same denomination, qualitatively equal, and quantitatively comparable.


the values must have a material expression; but carefully reading this shows that the material expression of value in direct price is not facilitated by the identity of the magnitude of value with the magnitude of price. Just as values and prices can diverge, so can the value of labour and its direct price. Marx develops this notion further:

Suppose two equal quantities of socially necessary labour to be respectively represented by 1 quarter of wheat and £2 (nearly 1/2 oz. of gold), £2 is the expression in money of the magnitude of the value of the quarter of wheat, or is its price. If now circumstances allow of this price being raised to £3, or compel it to be reduced to £1, then although £1 and £3 may be too small or too great properly to express the magnitude of the wheat’s value; nevertheless they are its prices, for they are, in the first place, the form under which its value appears, i.e., money; and in the second place, the exponents of its exchange-ratio with money. If the conditions of production, in other words, if the productive power of labour remain constant, the same amount of social labour-time must, both before and after the change in price, be expended in the reproduction of a quarter of wheat. This circumstance depends, neither on the will of the wheat producer, nor on that of the owners of other commodities.


The value of labour and the manifestation of that value in the price tightly constrain each other numerically but are not identical; and that tight numerical constraint still allows room for social deviations. If workers act together and manage to obtain an increase in their wages, the price of their labour increases but the socially necessary labour time for the production of the commodities does not have to change.

Again we see an awareness of internal tensions within the mechanisms of value Marx diagnoses of capital; a friction between its own regulative ideal and its material comportments.

Reply to iolo

Marx's Capital is one of those inexhaustible books. Whenever I see a direct tension between my exegesis (which is more 'fdrake's Marx' than Marx's Marx) and a political ideology (like Leninism or anarchocapitalism so far) I will highlight it.

I think it's pretty important to understand things before trying to change them.
Baden September 11, 2018 at 12:29 #211782
Quoting Pierre-Normand
This is awesome.


Second that. As is this: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/3111/society-of-the-spectacle/p1

Which is high on my list for a reread. :clap:
iolo September 11, 2018 at 12:51 #211792
ftd - it seems to me that, since capitalism and class relations are constantly in change and development, we are, alas, not given any 'before' in which to consider. So it goes - at present, very badly!
fdrake September 11, 2018 at 14:36 #211808
Reply to Baden

I'm much happier with this than with Debord. Marx is much more straightforward a writer, too. It's easy to get somewhere in the vicinity of his intentions, whereas I was spending most of my time clamouring for examples and applications with Society of the Spectacle. I did enjoy trying to ape Debord's poetic, exaggerated style though.

Society of the Spectacle also had a definite mood to the writing, there was a sense of despair and confinement and a real existential dread permeating the whole thing. Marx is a lot dryer, and he even uses examples. There weren't many examples in Society.
Baden September 11, 2018 at 14:38 #211809
Reply to fdrake

What can I say? It worked for me. Of course, that's pretty much smack on the type of thing I'm interested in, so I may be biased. :)
fdrake September 12, 2018 at 11:54 #211992
The next paragraph is pretty dense, requires a lot of unpacking, and is very revealing over how Marx thinks about capital and precisely how Marx thinks his account holds of capital.

Magnitude of value expresses a relation of social production, it expresses the connexion that necessarily exists between a certain article and the portion of the total labour-time of society required to produce it.


This is a statement of the ceteris paribus relationship between the magnitude of value of a commodity amount and the (socially necessary) portion of total labour time over all production it takes to produce that commodity. Again, remember that this equality is approximate, and deviations from the equality far from being a bug in Marx's theory are treated as a real feature of capital. Marx is explicit about the deviation of capital in reality from the model he develops.

As soon as magnitude of value is converted into price, the above necessary relation takes the shape of a more or less accidental exchange-ratio between a single commodity and another, the money-commodity. But this exchange-ratio may express either the real magnitude of that commodity’s value, or the quantity of gold deviating from that value, for which, according to circumstances, it may be parted with.


This distinction makes use of the previous distinctions between the magnitude of value and the money expression of that value. The two, again, only are close to coinciding when all deviating forces are sufficiently small. It's also worth highlighting a metaphysical subtlety in the modality of this coincidence too:

As soon as magnitude of value is converted into price, the above necessary relation takes the shape of a more or less accidental exchange-ratio between a single commodity and another, the money-commodity.


The coincidence of the amount of socially necessary labour time in a commodity with its correspondent value magnitude is a necessary feature of capital: a law. But nevertheless capital can accidentally deviate from this law. What does this mean for the status of the law? How can the law be a law if it doesn't hold for all times?

I think of it as a law of statistical tendency. Just like how it is the law of a fair coin flip to produce half heads and half tails, this still allows deviations from samples which have exact proportions of half heads half tails. The properties of a coin that give it this statistical property are no more incidental to the coin than its approximate fairness: a coin needs to have approximate symmetry in mass distribution and sufficient flatness over its sides for it to have this statistical regularity. The concordance of the coin flips with the law of their sides' equiprobability is no more a contingent feature of the coin than the real possibility of deviation from that law in the finite realisation of coin flip sequences. Its laws and the bugs are built into the coin.

In a similar way, the realisation of capital can be close to or far from its statistical laws while still being consistent with those statistical laws. Even the deviations of the reality of capital from its ideal/expected tendencies can be interpreted as part of the description of capital; just as a distribution has a mean, it also has a variance. Like the seasonal variations in temperature; the specific temperature of each day does not refute the rule that summers tend to be warmer than winters.

This can be summarised with the metaphor I used before, of Marx's model of capital as a model of an attractor for some dynamical economic system; what its expected function is from the regularities of its mechanisms; and the deviations from that attractor; what fluctuations occur and from which internal tensions of capital do they arise from.


The possibility, therefore, of quantitative incongruity between price and magnitude of value, or the deviation of the former from the latter, is inherent in the price-form itself. This is no defect, but, on the contrary, admirably adapts the price-form to a mode of production whose inherent laws impose themselves only as the mean of apparently lawless irregularities that compensate one another


He says it a lot better than I do.
fdrake September 12, 2018 at 12:23 #211996
Mathematical aside: on central limit theorems and emergent, yet inherent laws.

This is no defect, but, on the contrary, admirably adapts the price-form to a mode of production whose inherent laws impose themselves only as the mean of apparently lawless irregularities that compensate one another


The final part of the paragraph, which I bolded and italicised above, is extremely suggestive of the mathematical machinery of central limit theorems (which are sometimes called statistical attractors). What a central limit theorem does is take a bunch of processes that spit out (realise) numbers with much different laws, add them together, and show that the sum of such realisations obeys an aggregate law that the individual elements, and indeed small, finite subsets, need not follow.

The most well known example of this in mathematics is the Lindberg Levy central limit theorem. Many central limit theorems assume that the individual elements constituting them do not provide any information on any other individual elements (statistical independence), but there are lots of cases where you can relax this assumption; you allow the processes to depend on each other in some specified way.

Is tempting to think that because the collection of processes in a central limit theorem need to be constrained in some manner before they obtain their aggregate law (central limit) that this central limit has little influence on the collections of processes that satisfy it. This isn't true though; the usual result of a central limit theorem is that the series of processes when iterated converges to the law of its aggregate, its central limit; this is to say that the law begins constraining the processes from the start and the more items in your collection the more accurately that collection's statistical regularities approximate the law. The law, as an emergent order, is already baked into the finite realisations of these processes; just as the individual collections constrain the law, the law constrains the individual collections.

I believe we should think of Marx's analysis as diagnosing something like this law; in the aggregate, when all is behaving ceteris paribus, it approximates the law well. In the aggregate, when all is not behaving ceteris paribus as assumed, it need not obey the law very well at all.

Moliere September 12, 2018 at 12:57 #211998
Reply to fdrake I guess I do have something to add here after all. I think that the difference between absolute value and price or exchange value is what allows surplus-value and the rate of exploitation to be calculated as well. It sets the stage for the structural flow of value from one class of persons to another. Price isn't value because the price has to be higher than the value in order for their to be surplus-value, and then surplus-value has to be owned by persons who aren't producing it to make capitalism. The capitalist owns capital, which in turn allows him to set the price for both labor -- which is held in check by necessity, the capitalist needs workers still of course -- and the commodity being produced.
fdrake September 12, 2018 at 13:01 #212000
Reply to Moliere

I'm in agreement, and I think the point can be made more generally. I think, for Marx, capital doesn't just deviate from its laws through its internal tensions, it utilises those internal tensions to regulate its own functioning. As a process, it iterates from its pathologies and its mundanities alike. So far I've been trying my best to highlight the distinctions between the various expressions of value; and how their non-identity facilitates/constrains life under capital, and your comment is another part of this.

Another point which jives well with this is that value essentially is surplus value in terms of its numerical composition. The self valorisation of capital occurs in the difference between the money expression of socially necessary labour time for a commodity and the price of purchase for that commodity. That is, off the worker's back and from the worker's brow.
fdrake September 12, 2018 at 13:52 #212003
I should say, if anyone wants to comment or ask questions please do. It's always more fun to have a discussion than to monologue.
fdrake September 12, 2018 at 14:54 #212010
Marx notes that the divergence between value and price has some radical implications; the commodification of everything.

The price-form, however, is not only compatible with the possibility of a quantitative incongruity between magnitude of value and price, i.e., between the former and its expression in money, but it may also conceal a qualitative inconsistency, so much so, that, although money is nothing but the value-form of commodities, price ceases altogether to express value.

Objects that in themselves are no commodities, such as conscience, honour, &c., are capable of being offered for sale by their holders, and of thus acquiring, through their price, the form of commodities. Hence an object may have a price without having value. The price in that case is imaginary, like certain quantities in mathematics. On the other hand, the imaginary price-form may sometimes conceal either a direct or indirect real value-relation; for instance, the price of uncultivated land, which is without value, because no human labour has been incorporated in it.


Roughly how this works is that a price can be attached to everything regardless of its value. The untethering of the magnitude of the value in terms of labour and the magnitude of the value in terms of price takes an extreme form in which a price can be attached to an entity or attribute which is not an product of (social) labour.

What should be noted is that in this particularly abstract application of price, the amount of value that price expresses cannot mirror a socially necessary amount of labour in the commodity; but nevertheless what price actually obtains has its value in relation to the value of commodities. A psychologist does not produce a commodity through their labour, but nevertheless their labour has a price and they can be payed a wage for their labour. Their labour consists in the administration of therapy, which produces no physical item. Nevertheless the product; the treatment of a mental condition; has utility; but this utility is not tied to the duality of use and exchange even as the price of that product is associated with the expenditure of labour and the dynamics of value which find their money expression in the price of the shrink's service.

Again, that price makes sense upon the production of commodities and their trade networks. The ostensible arbitrariness of the assigned price to their labour does nothing to undermine the overall structure of value production; it actually expresses the inner torsion of price and value in capital. That torsion here is so great that it occludes the relationship between labour and value; and that occlusion is another manifestation of the fetishism of commodities.

Marx expands on divergence next, in the final paragraph of the chapter (or section, depending on how the book is split up). It also summarises/references the main themes of the chapter.

Price, like relative value in general, expresses the value of a commodity (e.g., a ton of iron), by stating that a given quantity of the equivalent (e.g., an ounce of gold), is directly exchangeable for iron. But it by no means states the converse, that iron is directly exchangeable for gold.


That amount X of gold is worth amount Y of iron doesn't mean that gold can be traded directly for iron as goods, goods will be tradable for gold only insofar as gold functions as the universal equivalent; which is to say, insofar as it functions as money.


In order, therefore, that a commodity may in practice act effectively as exchange-value, it must quit its bodily shape, must transform itself from mere imaginary into real gold, although to the commodity such transubstantiation may be more difficult than to the Hegelian “concept,” the transition from “necessity” to “freedom,” or to a lobster the casting of his shell, or to Saint Jerome the putting off of the old Adam. [15]


This is to say that for a commodity to be traded in terms of its exchange value, it simply must serve the social function of being of the right magnitude of value in trade. By treating the commodities as such we elide their physicality and utility for their social function in exchange.


Though a commodity may, side by side with its actual form (iron, for instance), take in our imagination the form of gold, yet it cannot at one and the same time actually be both iron and gold. To fix its price, it suffices to equate it to gold in imagination. But to enable it to render to its owner the service of a universal equivalent, it must be actually replaced by gold. If the owner of the iron were to go to the owner of some other commodity offered for exchange, and were to refer him to the price of the iron as proof that it was already money, he would get the same answer as St. Peter gave in heaven to Dante, when the latter recited the creed —


The replacement of a commodity by gold is just its purchase; and value must find its expression in a physical form to count as value in principle. This by no means stops working for information/digital money, it has become that the recorded marks signifying values of definite magnitudes serve exactly the same social function as a definite weight of gold. The digitalisation of money has not changed its social function; just as the removal of the gold standard did not, the (almost complete) removal of our 'paper' standard did not either.

A price therefore implies both that a commodity is exchangeable for money, and also that it must be so exchanged. On the other hand, gold serves as an ideal measure of value, only because it has already, in the process of exchange, established itself as the money-commodity. Under the ideal measure of values there lurks the hard cash.


The fungibility of real abstractions; like money; requires that they piggyback on physical processes with physical representatives irrelevant of how complex the social functions surrounding them are. This is to say that all the dynamics and semantics of value Marx has hitherto developed appear to us simply as good exchanges and purchases; as their embodiment in their marks. Perhaps the capacity for all these internal tensions is then no surprise, as all qualitative distinctions in the processes which together function as procedural components of value (labour time, socially necessary labour time, relative form, equivalent form, universal equivalent, money commodity, money names, the inexhaustible numerosity of trade networks and their value equivalence classes...) are forced to cohabit as uneasy roommates in the innocent home of their representation; the hard cash.

Collapsing all of these social processes into the money commodity then facilitates Marx to analyse the circulation of money and commodities.

That's the end of the section. I'll reflect on it a bit then post some more. Comments/questions?




fdrake September 12, 2018 at 16:26 #212036
Quoting fdrake
The fungibility of real abstractions; like money; requires that they piggyback on physical processes with physical representatives irrelevant of how complex the social functions surrounding them are. This is to say that all the dynamics and semantics of value Marx has hitherto developed appear to us simply as good exchanges and purchases; as their embodiment in their marks. Perhaps the capacity for all these internal tensions is then no surprise, as all qualitative distinctions in the processes which together function as procedural components of value (labour time, socially necessary labour time, relative form, equivalent form, universal equivalent, money commodity, money names, the inexhaustible numerosity of trade networks and their value equivalence classes...) are forced to cohabit as uneasy roommates in the innocent home of their representation; the hard cash.


I flubbed a bit here, and the use of 'physical processes' as a category of description doesn't really fit the bill. As I highlighted in the first post, events can have significance (expressions) in multiple ontological registers; the physical is but one. For example, debasing a currency is a chemical processes, but it has socio-economic effects. The appropriate vocabulary here is to use 'real abstraction' again, but pair it with 'real event' or something similar.

Regardless, the metaphysical function of my use of 'physical process' is I believe essentially correct; what it highlights is a certain collapse/codification of Marx's account of value into concrete events of exchange. In order for Marx to be right, his model of capital must be occurrent; what he describes in the (real) abstract has to actually play out.

Marx returns in the final two paragraphs to what started it all in the chapter; the exchange of commodities. The dynamic abstraction of money, value, and the attended social circumstances of trade must be embodied in the real relations of exchange in order for his account to be correct. Presciently, Marx uses all the abstractions he developed and collapses them into their already established representative; exchange as an exchange of equivalent values of the money commodity.

This then facilitates him to describe how this process reproduces itself; firstly with an account of the circulation of commodities - a model of exchange networks, purchases, wages and industrial ownership - then with an account of alienation and the extraction of surplus value. That Marx folds his account, at the end of every major section, back into the realities it deals with allows him to take a systemic approach to the reproduction of capital through circulation, and the self valorisation of capital through exploitation.

You can read this as something like as utilising commodity fetishism backwards; if it really is the case that exchange relations are the site of all these features of his account, he has to be able to use exchange relations as the real representation of his account of them. As much effort as he puts into explicating the hidden structure within commodities, he has to be able to treat the structure as hidden again when dealing with processes that operate regardless of his elucidation.
fdrake September 12, 2018 at 16:43 #212038
I'm pretty pleased with myself. I had the mathematical components sketched out a while ago, but it turns out that a few more years of reading other things gave me the ability to give a much deeper account of what's going on in the chapter.

Chapter 2 and 3 have a pretty bad reputation for complexity; I remember being told that, though it may be apocryphal as I've never managed to find the reference again after checking it, Althusser cautioned his students around the chapters; take them with a pinch of salt, they're inessential to the account.

Since reading Vol 1 through the first time I really disagree with this, Marx's value theory sets the stage for so much in his later account. He also seemed to be somewhat of a prophet about the development of capital; as he takes great pains to present things as generally as possible. It's amazing to go through it again and find his analysis cognisant of the historical contingencies of capital of his day - like gold and fiat currencies just being examples of the money form.
Deleteduserrc September 12, 2018 at 19:42 #212055
This is cool, about halfway through. Thanks for this.
fdrake September 12, 2018 at 22:05 #212073
Reply to csalisbury

NP. I've said elsewhere, I don't think it's 'Marx's Marx', I think it's very much 'fdrake's Marx'.
fdrake September 13, 2018 at 16:41 #212228
Would people be interested in me continuing through the book too? I have a couple of summary posts of what's happened so far planned, and some ideas for extra mathematical formalism to investigate. So there will be a delay due to the latter taking a decent amount of time.
Streetlight September 13, 2018 at 16:59 #212236
I'm reading and very much learning alot.
Moliere September 13, 2018 at 17:21 #212239
Reply to fdrake Definitely!
fdrake September 15, 2018 at 10:40 #212597
Mathematical note: the isomorphism of the measure of value and the standard of price.

I've been trying to understand the connection between value and price a bit better. If they're usually very similar but have the possibility of diverging in various circumstances that leaves some work in spelling out how the two relate quantitatively when things are going normally. In what sense is value as measured in the amount of abstract labour in the commodity the same as the price expression of that value?

I wrote before about labour times and values necessarily being calculable, and that the algebraic structure of value (and labour times) is that of an ordered field. There are a few things that characterise this relationship in terms of their socially necessary labour time and their direct price. Let commodity one in some amount x have direct price P1 and socially necessary labour time T1, and commodity two in some amount y have direct price P2 and socially necessary labour time T2.

(1) If we have two distinct commodities in two different amounts, x and y, the value of x and y together as measured in (socially necessary) labour time will be the sum of the labour times. T1+T2
(2) Under the same set up, if we take x and make it A times, it will have the same socially necessary labour time as A times x; A*T1
(3) Under the same set up, if we make y B times, the socially necessary labour time is B*T2.
(4) From (1), you can aggregate (2) and (3) to get the total amount of socially necessary labour time from the production of batches of commodities; giving the total socially necessary labour time as A*T1+B*T2.


Restating (1)->(4) in terms of prices just for explicitness:

(1) If we have two distinct commodities in two different amounts, x and y, the value of x and y together as measured in direct price will be the sum of their direct prices. P1+P2
(2) Under the same set up, if we take x and make it A times, it will have the same price as A times x; A*P1.
(3) Under the same set up, if we make y B times, the price is B*P2.
(4) From (1), you can aggregate (2) and (3) to get the total price from the production of batches of commodities; giving the price as A*P1+B*P2.

Let f be the function that maps a commodity's direct price to its socially necessary labour time. The first thing to notice is that this f is invertible; if things are going normally, any direct price is commensurate with a corresponding socially necessary labour time, and vice versa. For a given price, there is a certain amount of human labour in the abstract which that price expresses. This is to say that at a given time, there is a unique price for any amount of socially necessary labour time.

From (1) to (4) in both lists, you can see that the following relationships hold:

(1) f(P1+P2)=f(P1)+f(P2)=T1+T2
(2) f(A*P1)=A*f(P1)=A*T1

this means that the mapping from socially necessary labour times to direct prices is an isomorphism of fields. The two are so tightly coupled that socially necessary labour time and direct price are just different names for the same thing. However: this relationship between socially necessary labour times and their direct price expressions does not necessarily preserve the ordered structure of both of them. This is a useful distinction, as it is a substantially weaker form of the relationship between direct price and socially necessary labour time that Marx uses. You can find in Chapter (1):

Some people might think that if the value of a commodity is determined by the quantity of labour spent on it, the more idle and unskilful the labourer, the more valuable would his commodity be, because more time would be required in its production. The labour, however, that forms the substance of value, is homogeneous human labour, expenditure of one uniform labour power. The total labour power of society, which is embodied in the sum total of the values of all commodities produced by that society, counts here as one homogeneous mass of human labour power, composed though it be of innumerable individual units. Each of these units is the same as any other, so far as it has the character of the average labour power of society, and takes effect as such; that is, so far as it requires for producing a commodity, no more time than is needed on an average, no more than is socially necessary. The labour time socially necessary is that required to produce an article under the normal conditions of production, and with the average degree of skill and intensity prevalent at the time. The introduction of power-looms into England probably reduced by one-half the labour required to weave a given quantity of yarn into cloth. The hand-loom weavers, as a matter of fact, continued to require the same time as before; but for all that, the product of one hour of their labour represented after the change only half an hour’s social labour, and consequently fell to one-half its former value.


Marx uses direct proportion here (which still produces an isomorphism of fields). But direct proportion has one property that the above account does not; direct proportion is a monotonic increasing relationship between socially necessary labour time and direct price. This means it also produces an isomorphism of ordered fields ( it is an order preserving map ).

We can weaken Marx's assumptions (based on cotton loom prices) here and end up with much the same algebraic relationship; we don't need direct price and socially necessary labour time to be proportional to one another, we just need direct price to be a monotonic increasing function of socially necessary labour time.

One reason that such a weakening might be useful is in the analysis of the relationship between inflation and the minimum wage. If the minimum wage increases, we can expect an increase in the direct prices associated with any amount of social labour; labour becomes more valued. If inflation occurs, then the amount of each commodity that the same minimum wage as before buys is decreased; labour becomes less (relatively) valued. These two forces can (and usually do) operate at the same time, but I would be very surprised if the two had a linear relationship; this is what would occur when increases in the minimum wage were a constant multiple of inflation - that the graph between them is a straight line. This doesn't happen often (look at any real wage graph).

This means that f, the mapping from direct prices to socially necessary labour times, is a time varying function. The above relationship between the fields works at any specific time point, but the isomorphism breaks down for similar reasons to the ideal equivalence between real price and socially necessary labour time. That is, rapid fluctuations in the value of commodities or money undermining the stability of (equivalently valued) trade (exchange).

fdrake September 15, 2018 at 11:39 #212599
Sketch for later: one feature of the relationship between direct and real price.

As highlighted before, direct and real prices can (and usually do) diverge. This is pretty much a fact. A good requires a minimal cost to produce, but Bunnpris and Rema might sell it for different prices. This means that any supposed function mapping direct to real prices wouldn't actually be a function at all: it would be one-to-many. If Bunnpris sells Eldorado Tuna for 8.3NOK and Rema sells it for 8.2 NOK, it's the same commodity in the same amount, so both socially necessary labour times are equal. But the prices aren't. This means that direct price and price cannot have a direct mapping even when evaluating at precisely the same time.

A sketch of how to make a monotonic relationship between direct prices and prices might proceed as follows:
(1) Real prices are there to produce profit.
(2) It would be impossible to profit on the immediate sale of a commodity if the prices of production equalled the real price of the good in exchange.
(3) This means that the direct prices of production are a lower bound for the prices of sale.

So instead of associating the direct price of a commodity with a real price, we should associate the direct price of a commodity with a range of real prices. The range of sale prices for any commodity will have the direct price its greatest lower bound assuming sale is always sale for profit.

This means the function g that maps direct to real prices maps specific direct prices to intervals of real prices. EG, say the direct price of production for Eldorado Tuna is 3NOK, then any sale above 3 NOK is consistent with sale for profit. That means we can map:

direct price x->(direct price x, infinity)

And set up an ordering on the intervals (x, infinity) in terms of their greatest lower bound. EG, if direct price x < direct price y, then the corresponding order on real price intervals would be (direct price x, infinity) < (direct price y, infinity). This can be equipped with a distribution of real prices obtained from real sale data, which is the only way to represent all the different real prices that the same commodity can have.

One consequence of this is that while direct prices are essentially deterministic, real prices are essentially stochastic; the features of the distribution depending on where and when you are, and only easily summarised as an aggregate.
fdrake September 15, 2018 at 17:17 #212629
Mathematical note: the algebra of commodities and the algebraic structure of value.

A tacit assumption in the mathematical model I've made so far is that commodity direct prices for a specific amount of that commodity are a real or rational multiple of the per unit price or per unit socially necessary labour time. Often, however, an exchange consists of multiple commodities for multiple commodities of equivalent value or of multiple commodities for their real price.

Given the previous sketch on the relationship of direct to real prices, I'm going to deal solely with the mathematical relationship between multiple commodities being traded for their direct price. This is because the manifest real prices of commodities are chaotic and impossible to map consistently, but the minimal price they could be sold for profit is more well behaved (at least in principle). I am making an assumption that the socially necessary labour time for the production of a given batch of commodities is constant here, and this means the analysis will not hold when the socially necessary labour time is changing due to innovation in production.

Say someone buys an iPhone with an iPhone case. The direct price of the sum is the sum of the direct prices. Similarly with the iPhone, the direct price of the iPhone is the sum of the direct prices of its components. So by writing:

iPhone + iPhone case = (component 1 of iPhone + component 2 of iPhone + ... + final component of iphone) + price of assembly of iPhone + iPhone case

I mean to say that the two sides are of equivalent direct price. There are two principles here:

(1) The direct price of a commodity is the sum of the direct price of its components plus the direct price of that commodity's assembly (as determined from the socially necessary labour time of assembly).
(2) The direct price of a set of commodities is equal to the sum of the direct prices of each commodity.

I think it's appropriate, when talking about the direct price or socially necessary labour time of a single commodity, to fold the price of assembly into the direct price. However when looking to compose commodities into other commodities the assembly price must be added on; adding it on keeps track of the money expression of the socially necessary labour time. The direct price must reflect the total conditions of production for that commodity.

How does this tie in with the algebraic structure of value? This is mostly book-keeping as the mathematical machinery developed with the ordered field isomorphism does the work of translating labour times to direct prices. The only thing to construct is a mapping from collections of commodities to their socially necessary labour times - the above construction maps this to direct price (and then the sketch maps it to real price). I'll deal with point (2) first then come back to point (1)

The meat of this is translating the meaning of addition of commodities to a trade to the meaning of adding socially necessary labour times. So when Apple produces an iPhone and an iPhone case, writing this as:

iPhone+iPhone case

means that Apple has produced one iPhone and iPhone case.*

Writing it in terms of direct prices we have the same thing:

Value of (iPhone) + Value of (iPhone case)

We also have that if there were 2 iPhones and 2 iPhone cases produced, we have:

2 iPhones + 2 iPhone cases

becoming

(A) Value of (2 iPhones) + Value of (2 iPhone cases)

which is equal to

(B) 2*Value of (iPhone) + 2*Value of (iPhone case)

there is a subtlety here. The algebraic structure of commodities differs from that of values - we can't make -1 apples, but we absolutely can subtract the value of 1 apple from a trade to reduce the value in accordance with removing a commodity from the trade. This means that the above way of composing commodities into multi-commodity trades through addition is not immediately an ordered field, since there's no sense of subtraction of raw commodities.

If we have a list of all commodities C={C1, C2, ... , Cn}, the set of multi-commodity trades which can be made from that list is just the collection of all sums of commodities in the sense of *. If C1=iPhone and C2=iPhone case this just gives C1+C2 as the items available in the trade. This makes the set of all trades the set of all (finite) such sums.

C1+C2 is clearly the same as C2+C1, and C1+(C2+C3) is clearly the same as (C1+C2)+C3, only which goods are on the table matter at all, not how they are presented. This means that the + operation in sense * is associative and commutative. This means that the set of all possible trades is (isomorphic to) the free commutative monoid on C. It also comes equipped with the multiplicative group action of the whole numbers on it. EG C1+C1=2*C1 even though 2 is not a commodity. IE If N of the same commodity P are produced, this can be written as P*N (like 2 iPhones + 2 iPhone cases = iPhone + iPhone + iPhone case + iPhone case).

Now we can return to principle 2:

(2) The direct price of a set of commodities is equal to the sum of the direct prices of each commodity.

This states that the direct price of a multicommodity trade is just the sum of the direct price of each commodity. Now there's some extra formalism developed, principle 2 is equivalent to this:

the mapping from a set of commodities in a trade to its socially necessary labour time is homomorphism of commutative monoids (with 0 as the identity element), which are fields that have forgotten the idea of additive and multiplicative inversion (there's no such commodity as 1/iPhone or -iPhone). (A) and (B) as labelled above demonstrate the required properties of a commutative monoid homomorphism. Specifically, this mapping takes the above algebra of commodities and maps it to the additive part of the ordered field of values.

However, in this case it is not an isomorphism (and moreover one cannot exist). This is because the value of two distinct amounts of different commodities can be equal (so the mapping is not injective).

This then allows elements of (C,+) to be ordered by mapping them to their values. EG, if C1+C2 costs less (direct price) than C3+C4, C1+C2
Edit: regarding the action of the whole numbers on the commodities. More generally, multiplication by fractions and reals should be allowed. EG, if a 1 g of diamond had a direct price of 1 unit, 1/sqrt(2) g of diamond has a direct price of 1/sqrt(2) units. It may be more appropriate to model a multicommodity trade as a vector space over the reals with a certain mapping to the reals that corresponds to the evaluation of direct price. I'll sketch this out later.

Edit2: the vector space idea doesn't work.
fdrake September 15, 2018 at 17:25 #212630
Principle (1), the ability to decompose commodities into constituent commodities and assembly prices is tricky. Might take some time to model it.
fdrake September 16, 2018 at 18:23 #212847
Have a sketch of how to decompose a commodity into its constituents while still satisfying the above algebraic relationships, but it's more based on things from chapters 1 and 2.

If you take an iPhone and split it into the commodities which are used to assemble it, the socially necessary labour time of the iPhone will be equal to the sum of the socially necessary labour times for the composite of commodities which make it plus the assembly time. If we define a function D that takes a commodity and splits it into the sources of socially necessary labour time that together constitute the total for that commodity we'd end up with something like:

SNC(D(iPhone)) = SNC(C1 + C2 + C3 + ... +Cn)+SNC(assembly of iPhone)

where SNC is the socially necessary labour time. But we know from how direct prices and labour times work - they're additive/associative/commutative, this results in:

SNC(D(iPhone)) = SNC(D(C1 + C2 + C3 + ... + Cn)) + SNC(assembly of iPhone)
implies
SNC(D(iPhone))=SNC(D(C1))+SNC(D(C2))+SNC(D(C3))+...+SNC(D(Cn))+SNC(assembly of iPhone)

similarly, C1 through Cn will consist of commodities which have a socially necessary labour time for production and an overall assembly time for each commodity from its constituents. The trick here is to notice that this procedure of the iterative application of D bottoms out in raw goods, which have not been subject to labour and therefore have no exchange value. This makes D partition the commodity into the raw goods which constitute it - which do not contribute to the value - and the socially necessary labour times for transforming raw goods into the commodities. The consequence of this is that just as value consists essentially in (abstract) labour times, the socially necessary labour time consists of sums of abstract labour alone; transformative activities on raw goods, and transformative activities on bought commodities. So long as commodity labels remain in the the expression for D(x), the procedure iterates down to labour times, which are already isomorphic to direct prices.

What remains to be shown, though I think it's quite obvious, is that D as defined above agrees with the direct price decomposition as defined previously.
fdrake September 18, 2018 at 12:36 #213232
Since there was interest, I'm going to continue giving my exegesis of the book, and take a break from the mathematical modelling above. I'll return to it once I've done more exegesis. I'll be going through chapter/section 1, which stretches from the opening page to the end of the section on the fetishism of commodities.

The wealth of those societies in which the capitalist mode of production prevails, presents itself as “an immense accumulation of commodities,”[1] its unit being a single commodity. Our investigation must therefore begin with the analysis of a commodity.


This is pretty straightforward. Capitalist production makes a lot of stuff, and people have bought that stuff; making capitalist production appear as the accumulation of stuff people have bought. Note that the analysis begins from something worldly; Marx has noticed that capital accumulates a lot of stuff that people have bought; it isn't a purely philosophical assumption.

A commodity is, in the first place, an object outside us, a thing that by its properties satisfies human wants of some sort or another. The nature of such wants, whether, for instance, they spring from the stomach or from fancy, makes no difference.[2] Neither are we here concerned to know how the object satisfies these wants, whether directly as means of subsistence, or indirectly as means of production.


Commodities satisfy human wants and needs. The only thing which matters for analysis is that they satisfy human wants and needs, not how. This is an important methodological technique as it abstracts from the particular nature of commodities; how commodity x satisfies needs y; to their general structure; that commodities always satisfy wants and needs.

Every useful thing, as iron, paper, &c., may be looked at from the two points of view of quality and quantity. It is an assemblage of many properties, and may therefore be of use in various ways. To discover the various uses of things is the work of history.[3] So also is the establishment of socially-recognized standards of measure for the quantities of these useful objects. The diversity of these measures has its origin partly in the diverse nature of the objects to be measured, partly in convention.


Qualities of iron/paper etc are what wants and needs they satisfy and how they satisfy them; this is why studying human behaviour as it regards those commodities reveals the uses, and is a historical endeavour. How much of a given thing there is is also a function of the raw physical amount and the systems of measurement which have been developed. EG, cows come in whole number lots, iron comes in grams, paper can come in notepads or pieces etc.

The utility of a thing makes it a use value.[4] But this utility is not a thing of air. Being limited by the physical properties of the commodity, it has no existence apart from that commodity. A commodity, such as iron, corn, or a diamond, is therefore, so far as it is a material thing, a use value, something useful.[/b]


This is simply to state that how an item satisfies certain wants and needs depends on the material properties of that commodity (and how those properties are made use of). Corn satisfies hunger by being a food, specifically a hardy, insect resistant crop full of carbohydrates and nutrients.


This property of a commodity is independent of the amount of labour required to appropriate its useful qualities. When treating of use value, we always assume to be dealing with definite quantities, such as dozens of watches, yards of linen, or tons of iron.


This is to say that iron, as a construction material for munitions and boats, does not have the ability to be used for that construction if it comes in the quantity of a microgram. So Marx takes the dependence of use values on the amount of a commodity as something largely irrelevant; so long as we ascribe a use value to a thing, that can only be done insofar as there is enough of that thing for the use value. This ties in neatly with:

The use values of commodities furnish the material for a special study, that of the commercial knowledge of commodities.[5] Use values become a reality only by use or consumption: they also constitute the substance of all wealth, whatever may be the social form of that wealth. ||| In the form of society we are about to consider, they are, in addition, the material depositories of exchange value.


the bolded part. Use values are only use values insofar as they are used. Unprocessed iron in the ground, or an iron repository in a closed factory, do not strictly speaking have use values since they are not being utilised. There is still the []potential of use[/i] in those items afforded to them by their material properties. To put it another way, the formal character of a use value is to be expended through use.

Another feature of use values is that their accumulation constitutes wealth. Someone would be wealthy in virtue of having all they want and need forever. Wealth, as related to use values alone, is constituted by the fulfilment of a wants and needs; and having access to sufficient resources for it requires a certain availability and accumulation/storage of use values.

The sense of wealth in the previous paragraph doubtlessly seems very twee compared to the one we have now; but this is because the sense of wealth as the accumulation and availability of useful resources does not reflect the structure of wealth now; wealth under capitalist societies. In those societies, the family home of the commodity, goods also have exchange value and serve as its material depositories. Similar to previous discussion, commodities in certain amounts serve as a material expression of a social structure.

Exchange value, at first sight, presents itself as a quantitative relation, as the proportion in which values in use of one sort are exchanged for those of another sort,[6] a relation constantly changing with time and place. Hence exchange value appears to be something accidental and purely relative, and consequently an intrinsic value, i.e., an exchange value that is inseparably connected with, inherent in commodities, seems a contradiction in terms.[7] Let us consider the matter a little more closely.


bolded bit is the first reference to the 'lawless irregularities' that are the concrete acts of trade; exchange. Nevertheless Marx insists that there is, regardless, a social form of exchange which embeds itself in each exchange; constraining them, mediating them and ultimately reproducing itself as a social form in those concrete acts; which nevertheless is not a purely material property of the commodities themselves. From the previous vocabulary, Marx's reference to exchange value as intrinsic to the commodities sets up the value form as a real abstraction. It is intrinsic to the social significance of the commodity and the social form which uses them as such, not to the good stripped of all context and left as a barren composite of matter.

A given commodity, e.g., a quarter of wheat is exchanged for x blacking, y silk, or z gold, &c. – in short, for other commodities in the most different proportions. Instead of one exchange value, the wheat has, therefore, a great many. But since x blacking, y silk, or z gold &c., each represents the exchange value of one quarter of wheat, x blacking, y silk, z gold, &c., must, as exchange values, be replaceable by each other, or equal to each other. Therefore, first: the valid exchange values of a given commodity express something equal; secondly, exchange value, generally, is only the mode of expression, the phenomenal form, of something contained in it, yet distinguishable from it.


Marx points out that in order for exchange to occur as it usually does, the commodities which are exchanged must be equivalent in some manner. This is not necessarily to say that they are equal in all respects, like a numerical identity or both being rigidly designated by the same name; but to say that they count as one another in a sortal sense of equivalence. And just like such sortals, counting as one another is ultimately a consequence of the social organisation of trade.

I will highlight it again because it's important; exchange value is embedded in the commodities, but is distinct from every commodity. The mathematical structure of this embedding is what I've been wrestling with in a lot of these posts.

Let us take two commodities, e.g., corn and iron. The proportions in which they are exchangeable, whatever those proportions may be, can always be represented by an equation in which a given quantity of corn is equated to some quantity of iron: e.g., 1 quarter corn = x cwt. iron. What does this equation tell us? It tells us that in two different things – in 1 quarter of corn and x cwt. of iron, there exists in equal quantities something common to both. The two things must therefore be equal to a third, which in itself is neither the one nor the other. Each of them, so far as it is exchange value, must therefore be reducible to this third.


This is an interesting argument; a kind of transcendental deduction. If all the properties of x and all the properties of y are held equal in some sense, what renders that equality must be external to the properties of both; and instead is a feature of the relation of the two. Because changing the quantity of one commodity changes the quantity of the other that may exchange with it, the commensurability of x and y must be expressed in terms of an abstract quantity with which they are both equal.

Contained in this argument are the germs of the relative form and equivalent form of value, and of the universal equivalent. That we exchange x for y doesn't tell us why we can exchange x for y; we say that we can exchange them when they are of equivalent value, but this equivalence as a numerical property must be abstracted from the material properties and relative uses of both in the trade.







fdrake September 18, 2018 at 12:58 #213234
Marx continues his argument for the externality of value to the commodities in an exchange.

A simple geometrical illustration will make this clear. In order to calculate and compare the areas
of rectilinear figures, we decompose them into triangles. But the area of the triangle itself is expressed by something totally different from its visible figure, namely, by half the product of the base multiplied by the altitude. In the same way the exchange values of commodities must be capable of being expressed in terms of something common to them all, of which thing they represent a greater or less quantity.


This time through an analogy. Updating the analogy somewhat is useful. Say we have a square and a circle and the two are equal in terms of area. This means that the square of side h, of area [math]h^2[/math] and the circle of radius r, with area [math]\pi r^2[/math], are equal. We can say that the square and the circle are of equal area because [math]h=\sqrt{\pi}r[/math]. The only reason we can make this equation is that the two are already posited as equal in area; and the idea of 'equal area' is no more contained in the square than the circle. That they are of equal area follows from the application of the abstraction of area; which nevertheless can be read as an inherent/intrinsic property of both the circle and the square. The analogy functions by mapping 'are of equal area' to 'are of equal value' and of mapping 'circle, square' to 'commodity 1, commodity 2'. 'This size' and 'that size' become commensurable through 'area'. This commodity and that commodity become commensurable through exchange value.

This common “something” cannot be either a geometrical, a chemical, or any other natural property of commodities. Such properties claim our attention only in so far as they affect the utility of those commodities, make them use values. But the exchange of commodities is evidently an act characterised by a total abstraction from use value. Then one use value is just as good as another, provided only it be present in sufficient quantity. Or, as old Barbon says,“one sort of wares are as good as another, if the values be equal. There is no difference or distinction in things of equal value ... An hundred pounds’ worth of lead or iron, is of as great value as one hundred pounds’ worth of silver or gold.”[8]


Again, the emphasis here is that value is a (real) abstraction that operates on commodities in an exchange and isn't essentially constituted by material properties of either commodity. Since the use values of commodities depend entirely on their material constitution, this means that exchange value is essentially different from use value. A more striking way to use Barbon's equivalence is to suggest that because, say, 1 mole of iron is worth 1 mole of copper, 1 atom of iron is worth 1 atom of copper - the raw proportion of the two is all that matters in determining their relative value, irrespective of every everyday use of both being destroyed by the amounts present.
frank September 18, 2018 at 13:26 #213238
Reply to fdrake Did Marx think there is such a thing as value other than that which created by consumer demand?
fdrake September 18, 2018 at 13:30 #213239
Marx concludes his derivation of the distinction between use and exchange values:

As use values, commodities are, above all, of different qualities, but as exchange values they are merely different quantities, and consequently do not contain an atom of use value.


Which prefigures his argument for the alliance of labour and exchange value.

If then we leave out of consideration the use value of commodities, they have only one common property left, that of being products of labour. But even the product of labour itself has undergone a change in our hands. If we make abstraction from its use value, we make abstraction at the same time from the material elements and shapes that make the product a use value; we see in it no longer a table, a house, yarn, or any other useful thing. Its existence as a material thing is put out of sight. Neither can it any longer be regarded as the product of the labour of the joiner, the mason, the spinner, or of any other definite kind of productive labour. Along with the useful qualities of the products themselves, we put out of sight both the useful character of the various kinds of labour embodied in them, and the concrete forms of that labour; there is nothing left but what is common to them all; all are reduced to one and the same sort of labour, human labour in the abstract.


Breaking it down, since it's an important logical step in his value theory.

If then we leave out of consideration the use value of commodities, they have only one common property left, that of being products of labour.


Marx believes the 'if' there is vindicated by the qualitative independence of use and exchange values. He then asks 'what are the common properties left of two commodities x and y which are exchanged for one another in a definite amount?', and concludes quite sensibly that the only share property left is that they are both products of human labour. I think, instead of treating this as an argument from exhaustion, IE that Marx has surveyed the entire manifold of shared properties barring material properties of both commodities x and y and found that the only non-material property is that they are products of labour, we treat this as an argument to best explanation with a few motivating features.

Firstly, we already have that exchange is a social relation, and so the equivalence of two commodities in value reflects a social property. Secondly, we have that both commodities were produced; they were made. Something which satisfies both of these conditions is labour. Labour is a socially organised phenomenon that all commodities are brought into the world by; it transforms raw goods into commodities. So it's not ruled out by the ruling out of use values, and it is a shared non-material property of both commodities; they are products of labour.

That commodities are products of labour and also that the material constitution of the commodities does little to influence their equivalence exchange value also constrains the notion of labour which is suitable to facilitate the equivalence of exchange values.

But even the product of labour itself has undergone a change in our hands. If we make abstraction from its use value, we make abstraction at the same time from the material elements and shapes that make the product a use value; we see in it no longer a table, a house, yarn, or any other useful thing.


Imagine you are a potter and you're tasked with making a salad bowl and a plate, the salad bowl has to be deeper than the plate to facilitate tossing and the overall bulk of food expected to be in a serving dish; the plate can be much thinner than the bowl because it will be a vessel for less food than the salad bowl, and the food manipulated on it will be done with finer tools like forks and knives. All that changes between clay-arranged-platewise and clay-arranged-bowlwise are the concrete circumstances of labour in their production. The concrete circumstances of production are what shapes resources into use values.

However, the concrete circumstances of production are precisely what have been abstracted away when considering the shared properties of the commodities that may facilitate their equivalence in exchange value.

One further reason such an abstraction makes sense is that, insofar as commodities are different use values, they represent qualitatively incommensurable uses and are the result of qualitatively incommensurable labours. With reference to later; the only thing the expanded form of value preserves is value; it destroys all specificities that are not value determinative.

This only leaves a ghostly image of labour; a trace of labour devoid of specificities; a generalised labour that appears as labour only insofar as labour has been done. This is human labour in the abstract, the texture of value. What can be said of such an abstract form of labour? Well, this could be facilitated by looking at labour phemomenologically.

What commonalities are there between the potter making a plate and the potter making a bowl? Well, the potter is using clay, but that is a property of the material constitution of the commodities they make. The potter shapes the bowl to be deeper than the plate; but the different spinning and moulding patterns are concrete features of labour and therefore cannot facilitate this abstract equivalence. The bowl and the plate are both made of clay; but the bowl and a knife would be equally exchangeable in certain quantities, of equal value, independent of the material constitution. The bowl and the plate, made through the variation in thickness and depth on the potter's wheel, are as alien from one another as the bowl and the knife insofar as exchange is concerned. Being of common material constitution didn't help, neither did being involved in the same household activity (eating). The only things which remain are quantitative properties under which various qualitatively different labours can be held equivalent; just as they are held equivalent in value.

What property of every concrete labour is immediately given a magnitude? We have a choice between that labour was expended tout court, and of a magnitude of that exertion. Such a magnitude, however, must be indifferent to the intensity of work; as work intensity is a concretely qualitative feature of labour. It is indexed to a particular productive processes, rather than a generalisation over productive processes. So we may be able to say that labour is 'light' or 'back breaking', but this only provides an ordinal measure of the exertion; it brings productive processes into qualitative contrast as much as it brings them into a rough ordinal agreement. How much of back-breaking commodity x is worth light commodity y? The analysis of exertion intensity does nothing to answer this question.

The same argument could be applied to the average expenditure of calories in different productive processes; but such an average over all productive processes renders each of expectation proportional to...

The labour's duration, and that duration signals exertion over the duration. We find in this spectre of labour simply that a person exerts themselves over time. Dealing with the intensity of labour results in dealing with the duration of labour by proxy. So we're now left to analyse how the amount of abstract labour congealed in the commodity is determinative of its exchange value.

Edit: I believe Marx would have folded the energy expenditure/work intensity away into the concrete specificities of labour. The important thing to note about such properties is that they allow the results of productive processes to be partitioned into classes of equivalent value - the ordinal measures do that minimally but do not allow intra or inter class comparisons of differing magnitudes. The caloric expenditure does allow bringing different productive processes into equivalence classes of intensity, but we end up with essentially the same model as Marx does following this path. Caloric expenditure becomes average caloric expenditure over all people and productive processes per unit time, then the amount for any particular process is proportional to the duration. And the duration is what Marx works with.

Literal proportion, as highlighted before, is an isomorphism of ordered fields, so it makes absolutely no difference to the mathematical developments I've expressed either.

Reply to frank

Supply and demand fluctuations affect real prices but not direct prices. Direct prices are a reflection of the minimal amount of labour (or modal amount of labour depending on whether we're in productive disequilibrium and the two fail to coincide) required to make that commodity in the sphere of capitalist production. Real prices are whatever the bloomin' thing costs, and only reflect direct prices insofar as those direct prices provide the greatest lower bound for the sale price of that commodity assuming sale for profit.

frank September 18, 2018 at 14:20 #213256
Reply to fdrake Direct price isn't necessarily the lower boundary. I'd sell you hardware for less than it costs to make it hoping I can sell you software downstream.

The hardware was made by a robot. Some algorithm that includes depreciation and phases of the moon is used to estimate the cost of manufacturing it.
fdrake September 18, 2018 at 14:21 #213258
Reply to frank

Direct price is the lower boundary assuming sale of that commodity for profit. This is exactly the assumption I made. If it's not sale for profit of that commodity the lower bound doesn't hold.
fdrake September 18, 2018 at 14:42 #213266
Let us now consider the residue of each of these products; it consists of the same unsubstantial reality in each, a mere congelation of homogeneous human labour, of labour power expended without regard to the mode of its expenditure. All that these things now tell us is, that human labour power has been expended in their production, that human labour is embodied in them. When looked at as crystals of this social substance, common to them all, they are – Values.


Again, pay attention to the homogeneity of labour in the abstract; it is labour done by the everyperson and only insofar as the general properties of labour can it relate to and determine value. Also, Marx's reference to this labour as a 'social substance' reinforces that value is produced through the social organisation and facets of production and labour in general. Abstract labour and value are social stuff embedded in commodities intrinsically as a feature of capitalist production, and lay there intrinsically so long as production is capitalist production.
fdrake September 18, 2018 at 14:46 #213267
Quoting fdrake
Again, pay attention to the homogeneity of labour in the abstract; it is labour done by the everyperson and only insofar as the general properties of labour can it relate to and determine value. Also, Marx's reference to this labour as a 'social substance' reinforces that value is produced through the social organisation and facets of production and labour in general. Abstract labour and value are social stuff embedded in commodities intrinsically as a feature of capitalist production, and lay there intrinsically so long as production is capitalist production.


I don't mean to suggest that the causality is one way here - I think it's also part of the account that so long as commodities are exchanged as equivalents the mode of production is capitalist. The social structure of exchange is just as important as the social structure of production in capital; and the two reinforce the other socio-economically. Try to reorganise production, it will happily collapse back into capitalist production through wealth concentration so long as commodities are bought for money; try to do away with money, you will be isolated from the fruits of production.
frank September 18, 2018 at 15:34 #213283
Quoting fdrake
Direct price is the lower boundary assuming sale of that commodity for profit. This is exactly the assumption I made. If it's not sale for profit of that commodity the lower bound doesn't hold.


I understand. It's a limited analysis.
fdrake September 18, 2018 at 16:36 #213302
Reply to frank

Eh, I still find it convincing for the most part. On the back of a commodity which is sold below its direct price, in order to generate a profit other commodities must be sold sufficiently above their direct price. This is just how to make a profit when using that strategy. That for a given owner of a profile of commodities, some of which are sold below their direct price, others must be sold more above their direct price to still create a surplus despite the loss. This still conforms to the analysis so far. Relabel commodity with commodity profile and you're done - the profit being the sum total of profits minus loss of those commodities which are being sold below their direct price.

In a world where every commodity, or even most commodities, were sold below their direct price I'd think your criticism was more convincing. Especially considering when you aggregate things as above (and as, say Nintendo probably did for the Wii, analysing in terms of yearly/quarterly etc total surplus or loss ) it works just the same as before.
frank September 18, 2018 at 16:53 #213304
Quoting fdrake
In a world where every commodity, or even most commodities, were sold below their direct price I'd think your criticism was more convincing.


My interest is in agendas and how they differ by culture and era. If you compare the agendas of a 19th Century British factory owner to that of an American raider in 1985, the word "capitalist" sort of fades in significance. The raider isn't trying to make a profit. He or she is not even interested in running a successful business.

The commodity that broke the system in 08 can't really be analyzed in terms of cost.

Much of what seemed carved in stone to Marx is gone now. What made it seem so solid back then? Psychology. Culture. That's what's fascinating to me.

Carry on.
fdrake September 18, 2018 at 16:57 #213307
Reply to frank

I don't really see the point in what you're saying, it doesn't function as a criticism. It's like saying that studying organic chemistry is useless because of its insufficient emphasis on the organic chemistry of dolphins. Regardless, Marx does write at length about business, private property, business cycles and speculation (which was a thing back then too!) elsewhere in the book.

Don't worry frank, the dolphins will come later.
fdrake September 18, 2018 at 17:09 #213309
Anyone who thinks aggregate economic trends reduce entirely to psychology and culture must be completely baffled by the accumulation of wealth, redistributive measures, the entanglement of race, gender, poverty and crime. Even the most incompetent politician or business owner tries to influence the conditions of production and exchange systemically. This while acknowledging that all of these things come down to the objective features of social arrangements.

Being less informed about how things work than incompetent politicians and business owners is not a perspective that should be promoted. I think I'll start calling it Taylor Swiftism.
frank September 18, 2018 at 17:13 #213310
Quoting fdrake
I don't really see the point in what you're saying, it doesn't function as a criticism.


As I said, it's a limited analysis.


Quoting fdrake
Anyone who thinks aggregate economic trends reduce entirely to psychology and culture must be completely baffled by the accumulation of wealth, redistributive measures, the entanglement of race, gender, poverty and crime. Even the most incompetent politician or business owner tries to influence the conditions of production and exchange systemically. This while acknowledging that all of these things come down to the objective features of social arrangements.

Being less informed about how things work than incompetent politicians and business owners is not a perspective that should be promoted. I think I'll start calling it Taylor Swiftism.


This is close to completely meaningless.

fdrake September 18, 2018 at 17:29 #213313
Instead of my reconstruction of Marx's argument, he continues:

Let us now consider the residue of each of these products; it consists of the same unsubstantial reality in each, a mere congelation of homogeneous human labour, of labour power expended without regard to the mode of its expenditure. All that these things now tell us is, that human labour power has been expended in their production, that human labour is embodied in them. When looked at as crystals of this social substance, common to them all, they are – Values.

We have seen that when commodities are exchanged, their exchange value manifests itself as something totally independent of their use value. But if we abstract from their use value, there remains their Value as defined above. Therefore, the common substance that manifests itself in the exchange value of commodities, whenever they are exchanged, is their value. The progress of our investigation will show that exchange value is the only form in which the value of commodities can manifest itself or be expressed. For the present, however, we have to consider the nature of value independently of this, its form.

A use value, or useful article, therefore, has value only because human labour in the abstract has been embodied or materialised in it. How, then, is the magnitude of this value to be measured? Plainly, by the quantity of the value-creating substance, the labour, contained in the article. [b]The quantity of labour, however, is measured by its duration, and labour time in its turn finds its standard in weeks, days, and hours.


I think I've highlighted the relevant points of it before, and explaining how 'x expresses y' or 'x is embodied in y' work through real abstractions is something I've done a lot too. So I'll skip it here, especially since I reconstructed the argument above (with some embellishments).

One really interesting part of this bit is that just as the structure of value is calculable, so is the structure of time conformable with that value structure. We split time periods into days, hours, minutes etc; and the division of time facilitates both the management of and ease of measurement of labour. Again; value is inherently calculable. We can keep track of it and do algebra with it.

Reply to frank

Trouble, trouble, trouble!

I don't think I'll ever make a better pun than Taylor Swiftism. :(

Streetlight September 18, 2018 at 17:39 #213315
Quoting fdrake
On the back of a commodity which is sold below its direct price, in order to generate a profit other commodities must be sold sufficiently above their direct price. This is just how to make a profit when using that strategy. That for a given owner of a profile of commodities, some of which are sold below their direct price, others must be sold more above their direct price to still create a surplus despite the loss. This still conforms to the analysis so far. Relabel commodity with commodity profile and you're done - the profit being the sum total of profits minus loss of those commodities which are being sold below their direct price.


While I agree that Frank's interjection is more or less entirely irrelevant, I do wonder - and this is a stray thought that I haven't fully thought all the way through - if this holds for so-called debt capitalism: when the commodity being sold simply becomes a vehicle for debt, and where the goal is to keep the debtor in debt for as long as possible in order to squeeze interest out of them in the long-term (allowing a commodity to then be sold below cost price in the short term so as to recoup the losses in interest payments in the long term); one can imagine a model where the commodity then is always sold below cost and it is time which becomes the source of value, as it were. Would this kind of thing - even as an idealized model - affect the analysis here?
frank September 18, 2018 at 17:41 #213317
Quoting Marx
How, then, is the magnitude of this value to be measured? Plainly, by the quantity of the value-creating substance, the labour, contained in the article. The quantity of labour, however, is measured by its duration, and labour time in its turn finds its standard in weeks, days, and hours.

Human labor. He doesn't realize he's developing industrial engineering.

That's not a criticism. It's an interesting historical thingy.

Not everybody is trying to kill you, fdrake. Some people are just staring at the clouds mumbling to you. Nothing threatening.
fdrake September 18, 2018 at 17:58 #213318
Next Marx addresses a common confusion, reiterating the distinction between concrete labour and human labour in the abstract.

Some people might think that if the value of a commodity is determined by the quantity of labour spent on it, the more idle and unskilful the labourer, the more valuable would his commodity be, because more time would be required in its production. The labour, however, that forms the substance of value, is homogeneous human labour, expenditure of one uniform labour power.


It's homogenous because it's had all the things which make labour non-generic have been stripped away; and this was necessary because the specifics of the labours didn't matter to the magnitude of the value of commodities.

This does something methodologically too; because exchange value abstracts away from the specifics of labour, it characterises human labour in the abstract and its inherent calculability as a systemic property of capitalist production. So, methodologically, the analysis of value has to 'zoom out' to the total productive behaviour of, for Marx, society. Today, we should update this to the global sphere of production.

I don't think this update does too much to the account, as 'society' is largely a placeholder. 'Society' functions as the playground of the relevant social and productive relations. Now the entire world does.

The total labour power of society, which is embodied in the sum total of the values of all commodities produced by that society, counts here as one homogeneous mass of human labour power, composed though it be of innumerable individual units. Each of these units is the same as any other, so far as it has the character of the average labour power of society, and takes effect as such; that is, so far as it requires for producing a commodity, no more time than is needed on an average, no more than is socially necessary.


If we have a total of values for a society, the individual values which constitute it are a proportion of that value; and those values have a magnitude of value in accordance with their proportion. The specific magnitude of value that a commodity congeals is whatever labour is deemed socially necessary within it. Socially necessary labour time as an abstraction has two functions here:

(1) It provides the link between human labour in the abstract and the conditions of production; stuff in general is produced in whatever time it is required to be.
(2) It comes along with a specific value magnitude; the required time.


The labour time socially necessary is that required to produce an article under the normal conditions of production, and with the average degree of skill and intensity prevalent at the time. The introduction of power-looms into England probably reduced by one-half the labour required to weave a given quantity of yarn into cloth. The hand-loom weavers, as a matter of fact, continued to require the same time as before; but for all that, the product of one hour of their labour represented after the change only half an hour’s social labour, and consequently fell to one-half its former value.


It should be noted that 'the labour' underpinning 'the labour time' in the first sentence is human labour in the abstract; generic labour done by the generic person. Marx is highlighting that human labour in the abstract has a kind of average skill and intensity associated with it; individuals in a factory may differ in speed of work, regardless the production has a socially necessary required time to produce a given number of its goods.

What interests me here stylistically is the seamless transition between describing human labour in the abstract to something which could be well understood outside the context. If someone were to say 'Toyota halved the required time to produce their cars, they're doubling their income by reducing costs', it'd make sense. Regardless of the reliance on the agency of a company (Toyota) which only as an aggregate produces cars - which are individually produced by labourers and machines. I think going from concrete labour to human labour in the abstract is very similar to the move implicit in understanding the sentence 'Toyota halved the required time'; of labour devoid of its contextual richness, reduced to the exertion of an aggregate.

Reply to StreetlightX

While I agree that Frank's interjection is more or less entirely irrelevant, I do wonder - and this is a stray thought that I haven't fully thought all the way through - if this holds for so-called debt capitalism: when the commodity being sold simply becomes a vehicle for debt, and where the goal is to keep the debtor in debt for as long as possible in order to squeeze interest out of them in the long-term (allowing a commodity to then be sold below cost price in the short term so as to recoup the losses in interest payments in the long term); one can imagine a model where the commodity then is always sold below cost and it is time which becomes the source of value, as it were. Would this kind of thing - even as an idealized model - affect the analysis here?


I think this is a good point, the production of commodities for sale is only one part of the way profit can be made under capitalist production. I think ultimately this comes down to the ability to commodify and size up the price of anything. That is to say, I believe most financial operations take place in the internal tension of value creation and price. Marx knows you can hang a price on anything. There's some material directly about speculation later too.

One interesting thing I've seen bandied about in this kind of discussion - of capital as debt capital - is that financial operations are highly destabilising; crashes, hyperinflation etc occur as part of the financial operations of capital. It's part of the usual economic narrative to attribute the capacity for financial transactions to destabilise an economy to the unsustainability of their relation to demand, supply, and the real profits of the companies (or real repayments of the debtors) the speculation is based on. I think a similar move would be available to Marx; just as finance capital is an inherent part of capital, so too is the destabilising tension between it, value production and wage labour.

Reply to frank

I don't know what you're talking about at all, sorry.


frank September 18, 2018 at 18:05 #213320
Reply to fdrake I was checking to see if the zombie apocalypse has made it to Scotland
fdrake September 18, 2018 at 18:07 #213321
Reply to StreetlightX

Another part of my response should have been; financial operations don't typically come along with the sale of commodities; they don't produce profit through the direct extraction of surplus value, rather they re-appropriate already created value through purchase. Things like land or oil extraction rights or shares or improvements in mental health from therapy are not commodities for Marx, regardless of the fact they're on sale.
fdrake September 18, 2018 at 18:10 #213322
Reply to StreetlightX

Lastly, I don't see an analysis of commodity production which characterises it as the sole producer of values as something completely at odds with an analysis of the re-appropriation of value through money repayments of debt.
frank September 20, 2018 at 16:37 #213797
Reply to fdrake Could you explain in layman's terms why Marx would care about labor costs?

The value (as I understand the word) of a can of green beans is the price a consumer is willing to pay for it. There is no other value no matter what labor (along with parts and overhead) may have gone into creating the item. If billions of labor dollars are spent creating X, but nobody will buy X, the value of X is $0.00.



fdrake September 20, 2018 at 16:43 #213798
Reply to frank

I've written a lot about the distinction between real price and direct price. Real price is what something costs in money - a tin of Eldorado tuna costing about 8NOK here. Direct price is what something costs in labour. Supply, demand and purchases don't immediately influence the direct price in labour, but they can immediately effect the cost.

For Marx, only commodities have a direct price as they are the only things which are a product of labour. Nevertheless anything and everything can have a real price. Like unworked land, oil drilling rights, counselling or hiring a lawyer.
frank September 20, 2018 at 16:46 #213799
Reply to fdrake I understand. Why does Marx care about labor costs?

Is that dolphin-safe tuna?
fdrake September 20, 2018 at 17:34 #213804
Reply to frank

Read the long post I made reconstructing Marx's argument for why labour time is determinative of direct price. There are also plenty of other posts where I'm highlighting reasons why direct price can diverge from real price.

We see then that that which determines the magnitude of the value of any article is the amount of labour socially necessary, or the labour time socially necessary for its production.[9] Each individual commodity, in this connexion, is to be considered as an average sample of its class.[10] Commodities, therefore, in which equal quantities of labour are embodied, or which can be produced in the same time, have the same value. The value of one commodity is to the value of any other, as the labour time necessary for the production of the one is to that necessary for the production of the other. “As values, all commodities are only definite masses of congealed labour time.”[11]


The first bolded bit is essentially a restatement/summary of Marx's developments so far. The magnitude of value (in direct price, for @frank) is explained by the magnitude of labour socially necessary for its production. Marx is also aware that the socially necessary labour time can change due to adopting productive innovations.

It's worthwhile staying for a little bit and working with this idea of social necessity. What makes a labour time socially necessary? A tentative definition of a socially necessary labour time is as follows:

(1) A labour time t is socially necessary for producing commodity x if all productive processes that yield x have the same duration.

But, as Marx highlighted, it can change. So how does the socially necessary labour time behave in Marx's cotton loom example?

For some time, there will be productive processes that have not adopted the looms, and some which will have adopted the looms. Going from (1) this implies that there is no socially necessary labour time so long as there are productive processes which yield x with different durations. But clearly, Marx expects the socially necessary labour time to half after the adoption of cotton loom halved the production time.

So there's some dynamic here. The invention of a more efficient productive process does not have to decrease the socially necessary labour time for x if it is not adopted. I have an analogy to demonstrate this: assume we have an industrialist Nostradamus isolated in his tower inventing productive processes so advanced they would reduce the socially necessary labour times in general by 80%, but he never leaves his tower or communicates his discoveries. Nostradamus, then, would have no effect on the socially necessary labour times despite providing the schematics for a huge reduction in all of them. This implies that socially necessary labour time changes require the real adoption of productive changes, rather than simply theoretical developments. To be sure, productive developments must be invented before they are adopted, but their adoption is what matters.

This implies that the socially necessary labour time of x is a property of the aggregate conditions of production of x; that is, a statistical property of the distribution of labour times for x.

But a bit more work is needed to translate the idea that the socially necessary labour time is a statistical property of the distribution of labour times for a given commodity into an actual statistical property of the aggregate.

Relying on Marx's cotton loom example, it doesn't seem a stretch to say that once the cotton loom was adopted in general, the socially necessary labour time for cotton was decreased. At the start of the adoption, fewer productive processes will have used the cotton loom than at the end. This implies that when a labour saving device begins to be adopted, it eventually brings down the socially necessary labour time in proportion to the amount of labour saved. To be sure, when the aggregate conditions of production for cotton started using cotton looms, the socially necessary labour time will have decreased in accordance with the new productive method. This gives us two notions which are useful for describing the transition of socially necessary labour times:

(A) A distribution of labour times for real productive methods for a commodity x is in productive equilibrium if the mode of that distribution equals the minimum of that distribution.
(B) A distribution of labour times for real productive methods for a commodity x is in productive disequilibrium if the mode of that distribution is greater than the minimum of that distribution.

When cotton looms began to be adopted, (B) is the case; there are few productive processes producing at the minimal labour time and most of them still use the old one. The forces of market saturation and decreased production costs giving higher rates of profit incentivise the adoption of the productive innovation; those that do not adopt it suffer comparative disadvantage. As more and more productive processes for x adopt the labour saving innovation, we trend towards (A). This is when the aggregate conditions of production reflect the new minimum rather than the old mode.

This contrast between productive equilibrium and productive disequilibrium cashes out in terms of comparative disadvantage in profit rates for those who don't adopt the new method; thus there is a compulsion to adopt it. This compulsion, arising from the incentive to increase profit rates and avoid comparative disadvantage therein, is a component of the social necessity of the labour time. The costs of production minimise by minimising the direct price.

So, with (1) and (A) in mind, we end up with a better characterisation of socially necessary labour time.

(2) For a commodity x whose real productive processes are in productive equilibrium (A) the socially necessary labour time is the minimum (and modal) labour time to produce x.

Edit: I think there are more facets to the social necessity of a given labour time than this, but I think it's a good enough account to proceed. What the above tries to capture is how the magnitude of the socially necessary labour time arises and under what conditions is it changing. The coincidence of the mode and minimum is a condition where less efficient productive processes are heavily disincentivized, you will be out produced on all fronts if you don't satisfy the minimum, so there is an element of social necessity in the equation of minimum and mode. Perhaps there are others, and I suspect the story is more complicated if, say, two countries have isolated sets of productive processes for the same commodity (no trade), so the aggregate could possibly be in productive disequilibrium even when both countries are in productive equilibrium. Two features that arise from this is the importance of international trade deals and the geographic specialisation of labour for maximising profit rates.

Edit2: a more mathematical framing for the above is that seeking to remove comparative disadvantage or gain momentary comparative advantage through more efficient production acts to minimise the expected difference of minimum and mode of the distribution of labour times.





fdrake September 20, 2018 at 18:10 #213809
Marx continues to give some examples which back up the relationship of socially necessary labour time and prices. He highlights that socially necessary labour time is a property of the aggregate conditions of production:

The value of a commodity would therefore remain constant, if the labour time required for its production also remained constant. But the latter changes with every variation in the productiveness of labour. This productiveness is determined by various circumstances, amongst others, by the average amount of skill of the workmen, the state of science, and the degree of its practical application, the social organisation of production, the extent and capabilities of the means of production, and by physical conditions.


and states that the aggregate property of socially necessary labour time is an ideal average of the 'lawless irregularities' of concrete productive conditions. It is another example of how Marx thinks his account holds of capital.

An interesting coincidence is that since competition acts to minimise the difference between the minimal labour time and the modal labour time for a commodity; this characterises the state of productive equilibrium of the distribution of production times as a literal statistical attractor of distributions.

Marx makes some remarks about how changes in socially necessary labour time over time manifest in changes in direct price.

For example, the same amount of labour in favourable seasons is embodied in 8 bushels of corn, and in unfavourable, only in four. The same labour extracts from rich mines more metal than from poor mines. Diamonds are of very rare occurrence on the earth’s surface, and hence their discovery costs, on an average, a great deal of labour time. Consequently much labour is represented in a small compass. Jacob doubts whether gold has ever been paid for at its full value. This applies still more to diamonds.


The same is still true today; eg the lettuce shortages and price increases in response to the May->July heatwave in Europe. Interestingly today, synthetic diamonds are relatively cheap but natural diamonds are still very expensive. The impurities in natural diamond are seen as making it more valuable than the much purer synthetic diamonds bought in bulk by experimental physics departments worldwide. However, this difference in opinion just masks the difference in labour times to create the same quantity of natural and synthetic diamond - it is no surprise that natural ones remain more valuable because of the amount of labour it takes to extract one from the earth compared to the productive efficiency afforded to synthetic diamonds.

Another feature in this account is the decomposition of commodities into other commodities and their sources of labour. See here for a mathematical exhibition of the decompositions.

According to Eschwege, the total produce of the Brazilian diamond mines for the eighty years, ending in 1823, had not realised the price of one-and-a-half years’ average produce of the sugar and coffee plantations of the same country, although the diamonds cost much more labour, and therefore represented more value. With richer mines, the same quantity of labour would embody itself in more diamonds, and their value would fall. If we could succeed at a small expenditure of labour, in converting carbon into diamonds, their value might fall below that of bricks. In general, the greater the productiveness of labour, the less is the labour time required for the production of an article, the less is the amount of labour crystallised in that article, and the less is its value; and vice versâ, the less the productiveness of labour, the greater is the labour time required for the production of an article, and the greater is its value. The value of a commodity, therefore, varies directly as the quantity, and inversely as the productiveness, of the labour incorporated in it.


The major highlight here is that the productiveness of a productive process of a commodity is the rate of its production per unit time; which scales inversely with the socially necessary labour time per commodity; which then scales inversely to the value. Going the other direction, the more of a commodity which is produced, the more the value of that commodity. This is summarised as follows:

[math]\text{value of x} \propto \frac{\text{quantity of x}}{\text{productiveness of labour for x}}[/math]

fdrake September 20, 2018 at 18:21 #213812
Marx finishes the section as he usually does; folding the concepts he exhibited of x into the material expression of x. Before it was value and physical money tokens, here it is use value and exchange value into the commodity. The motivation for this is also the same as usual; the real abstractions Marx has developed are embedded into the entity which is governed by those real abstractions.

A thing can be a use value, without having value. This is the case whenever its utility to man is not due to labour. Such are air, virgin soil, natural meadows, &c. A thing can be useful, and the product of human labour, without being a commodity. Whoever directly satisfies his wants with the produce of his own labour, creates, indeed, use values, but not commodities.


This is very important; things can have use without having value. An item which has a use in terms of its concrete capacities of labour is much different from one which has use only for exchange; whose power in exchange is determined by the abstract labour it congeals. Thus abstract and concrete labour are structurally symmetric to exchange and use value.

To reiterate; use value depends on utilising a thing for its material properties brought about through concrete labour, exchange value depends on utilising a thing for its abstract properties brought about through abstract labour.

In order to produce the latter (values), he must not only produce use values, but use values for others, social use values. (And not only for others, without more. The mediaeval peasant produced quit-rent-corn for his feudal lord and tithe-corn for his parson. But neither the quit-rent-corn nor the tithe-corn became commodities by reason of the fact that they had been produced for others. To become a commodity a product must be transferred to another, whom it will serve as a use value, by means of an exchange.)[12] Lastly nothing can have value, without being an object of utility. If the thing is useless, so is the labour contained in it; the labour does not count as labour, and therefore creates no value.


However, in order to be exchangeable with respect to the expanded form detailed earlier; the use value of a commodity must satisfy a common need; use values insofar as they are produced in capitalist societies are always social use values. Good for and available to the generic human who would use them. Rather than knitting a hat for your friend.

This implies that the presence of value (abstract labour) is grounded in the presence of utility (concrete labour). Again, Marx 'folds' the abstraction into the concretions which constitute its aggregate. Labour in the abstract is derived from the general properties of concrete labour.

Thus ends the first section, "The Two Factors of a Commodity".

fdrake September 20, 2018 at 18:35 #213815
Section Summary: THE TWO FACTORS OF A COMMODITY: USE-VALUE AND VALUE (THE SUBSTANCE OF VALUE AND THE MAGNITUDE OF VALUE)

Commodities have two types of value in them.

Use value and exchange value.

Use value is what the commodity is used for. Exchange value is what the commodity is exchanged for.

Use value arises from the material properties of an object shaped by concrete acts of labour, exchange value arises from the abstract properties of an object in their relation to human labour in the abstract.

Human labour in the abstract denotes the general properties shared by all labour; which are that they are effortful time expenditure. Concrete labour denotes the specific properties of labour in the production of a given commodity.

Use value/concrete labour and exchange value/abstract labour are structurally similar. Use and concrete labour are aligned with qualities, exchange value and abstract labour are aligned with quantities.

Exchange value has a magnitude, and because the only magnitudinal property of labour in general is its duration, the magnitude of value must depend on the magnitude of duration for producing that commodity.

The privileged duration which gives the commodity its specific value (direct price) is the socially necessary labour time for its production.

The socially necessary labour time for a commodity is, roughly, the minimal duration for its production given a specific organisation of production for that commodity.

The value (direct price) of a commodity is proportional to the amount of it and inversely proportional to its socially necessary production rate per unit time.

In order for a commodity to have an (exchange) value, it must have a social use value; that is it must be able to be used generically by those who have a want or need for it.
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 09:31 #213970
Section 2: THE TWO-FOLD CHARACTER OF THE LABOUR EMBODIED IN COMMODITIES

Marx begins this short section with a quick recap.

At first sight a commodity presented itself to us as a complex of two things – use value and exchange value. Later on, we saw also that labour, too, possesses the same two-fold nature; for, so far as it finds expression in value, it does not possess the same characteristics that belong to it as a creator of use values. I was the first to point out and to examine critically this two-fold nature of the labour contained in commodities. As this point is the pivot on which a clear comprehension of political economy turns, we must go more into detail.


He reiterates that the commodity is composed of use values and exchange values. And labour is composed of concrete and abstract labour. Labour, when it results in a commodity, results in a composite of use values and exchange values; which mirror the labour done as concrete and abstract labour respectively.

From the bolded sentence, Marx believes that the production of commodities, and the nature of commodities, is a central topic for the understanding of capital.

Let us take two commodities such as a coat and 10 yards of linen, and let the former be double the value of the latter, so that, if 10 yards of linen = W, the coat = 2W.

The coat is a use value that satisfies a particular want. Its existence is the result of a special sort of productive activity, the nature of which is determined by its aim, mode of operation, subject, means, and result. The labour, whose utility is thus represented by the value in use of its product, or which manifests itself by making its product a use value, we call useful labour. In this connection we consider only its useful effect.


Marx introduces the notion of useful labour; which is defined as labour that produces a use value; a good which satisfies some want or need (whose use is realised in the consumption of the good). He proceeds to analyse the trade of goods as the trade of use values.


As the coat and the linen are two qualitatively different use values, so also are the two forms of labour that produce them, tailoring and weaving. Were these two objects not qualitatively different, not produced respectively by labour of different quality, they could not stand to each other in the relation of commodities. Coats are not exchanged for coats, one use value is not exchanged for another of the same kind.


x with use value y is not exchanged for some u with exactly the same use value y. This is because the trade of use values requires that each trader stands to gain materially form the trade. The qualitative distinction of the use values, again, mirrors the qualitative distinctions between the acts of concrete labour that produced them. Because of the reality of this quantitative distinction, again, the properties of human labour in general are what facilitate the equivalence of x with u as tradable goods.

To all the different varieties of values in use there correspond as many different kinds of useful labour, classified according to the order, genus, species, and variety to which they belong in the social division of labour. This division of labour is a necessary condition for the production of commodities, but it does not follow, conversely, that the production of commodities is a necessary condition for the division of labour. In the primitive Indian community there is social division of labour, without production of commodities. Or, to take an example nearer home, in every factory the labour is divided according to a system, but this division is not brought about by the operatives mutually exchanging their individual products. Only such products can become commodities with regard to each other, as result from different kinds of labour, each kind being carried on independently and for the account of private individuals.


It is here that Marx introduces the division as labour as a necessary constituent of capitalist production. The division of labour arises as a logical condition of the qualitative plurality of concrete labours. This type of labour produces a shoe, this other type of labour produces a hat. Note that the division of labour is simply a necessary constituent of commodity production, not a sufficient condition for commodity production. Which is to say societies can make use of a division of labour, and indeed have, without adopting the capitalist mode of production. This means that the division of labour does not necessarily produce commodities, nevertheless the way labour is divided under capital is a necessary constituent of it.

There are two threads of argument which buttress this point; on the derivation of the division of labour from the nature of commodities. Firstly, that commodities stand in a relation of abstract/value-numerical equivalence with each other in trade requires that goods are produced not just for use value, but for exchange value. The requirement of exchange of goods to satisfy wants and needs is embodied in the production of socially useful commodities (which are a fortiori tradable).

The coupling of the division of labour under capitalist production occurs through the production of commodities from three related sources of social necessity:

(1) From the opening paragraph; if someone had all the use values they needed or desired, they would not need to trade any of them for any other use values.

(2) This, then, suggests a social distribution of use values whereby each, or most, must be obtained through trade of some sort.

(3) (1) and (2) together suggest that an individual's concrete labour is consists in producing a narrow range of use values for trade. Thus their skills become professionalised and wants are satisfied through trade.

All together they implicate the social division of labour into the exchange mechanism of capital, and moreover into the production of commodities. Since Marx thinks the production of commodities is an essential feature of capitalist production, so too does he think that the division of labour in producing those commodities is essential.

Another note is that "for the account of private individuals." in the last line is suggestive that each individual owns the product of their labour, however it is also consistent with the idea that not every individual owns the product of their labour. This prefigures probably the most well known idea from Marx - workers not owning the products of their labour.

Regardless, since the division of labour is a necessary but not-sufficient condition for the production of commodities; Marx continues describing general features of trade under social organisations of labour that require its division.

To resume, then: In the use value of each commodity there is contained useful labour, i.e., productive activity of a definite kind and exercised with a definite aim. Use values cannot confront each other as commodities, unless the useful labour embodied in them is qualitatively different in each of them. In a community, the produce of which in general takes the form of commodities, i.e., in a community of commodity producers, this qualitative difference between the useful forms of labour that are carried on independently of individual producers, each on their own account, develops into a complex system, a social division of labour.


Marx states that under a social organisation of labour where use values are often obtained through trade, that social organisation will bear a division of labour. Different people will make different things as afforded by their skills and desires.

Anyhow, whether the coat be worn by the tailor or by his customer, in either case it operates as a use value. Nor is the relation between the coat and the labour that produced it altered by the circumstance that tailoring may have become a special trade, an independent branch of the social division of labour. Wherever the want of clothing forced them to it, the human race made clothes for thousands of years, without a single man becoming a tailor. But coats and linen, like every other element of material wealth that is not the spontaneous produce of Nature, must invariably owe their existence to a special productive activity, exercised with a definite aim, an activity that appropriates particular nature-given materials to particular human wants. So far therefore as labour is a creator of use value, is useful labour, it is a necessary condition, independent of all forms of society, for the existence of the human race; it is an eternal nature-imposed necessity, without which there can be no material exchanges between man and Nature, and therefore no life.


Because humans have needs which require myriad interactions with their environment; food, clothing, shelter etc, labour which acts on nature is an essential feature of satisfying those requirements; an essential feature of being human. Irrelevant of the social organisation, people will still be doing labour to produce use values to the extent that they have the wants and needs serviced by those use values. The fortune of humankind will always be tied to the vicissitudes of their labour. Regardless, this does not preclude the production of use values to take different social forms; as with capitalist production, use value comes along with exchange value.


The use values, coat, linen, &c., i.e., the bodies of commodities, are combinations of two elements – matter and labour. If we take away the useful labour expended upon them, a material substratum is always left, which is furnished by Nature without the help of man. The latter can work only as Nature does, that is by changing the form of matter.[13] Nay more, in this work of changing the form he is constantly helped by natural forces. We see, then, that labour is not the only source of material wealth, of use values produced by labour. As William Petty puts it, labour is its father and the earth its mother.


Of note here is that the 'material substratum' of nature strictly speaking does not have value; since no labour has been done to it. The 'material substratum' facilitates the satisfaction of need and want; of the creation of use values; through its own proclivities, nevertheless the perpetual unfolding of nature is not a human labour; and thus when untouched by humanity has no value. This observation grounds that the iterative decomposition of commodities as detailed here bottoms out in the valueless collection of goods (the kernel of the decomposition operator) and the sum total of labours in each stage of the hierarchical production of commodities. Here's a picture of how it works. The commodity C1 is produced through the assembly of C2 and C3, C3 is produced through the assembly of C4 and C5, C2,C4,C5 are all directly transformed from raw goods.
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 10:04 #213983
Marx turns the discussion from the production and trade of use values to the production and trade of (exchange) values. Marx is using his argument about the relationship of human labour in the abstract to value; and of the socially necessary labour time to the magnitude of value, so if you are unsure of how those work at this point it's worthwhile to go back and study them more.

Let us now pass from the commodity considered as a use value to the value of commodities.

By our assumption, the coat is worth twice as much as the linen. But this is a mere quantitative difference, which for the present does not concern us. We bear in mind, however, that if the value of the coat is double that of 10 yds of linen, 20 yds of linen must have the same value as one coat. So far as they are values, the coat and the linen are things of a like substance, objective expressions of essentially identical labour. But tailoring and weaving are, qualitatively, different kinds of labour. There are, however, states of society in which one and the same man does tailoring and weaving alternately, in which case these two forms of labour are mere modifications of the labour of the same individual, and not special and fixed functions of different persons, just as the coat which our tailor makes one day, and the trousers which he makes another day, imply only a variation in the labour of one and the same individual. Moreover, we see at a glance that, in our capitalist society, a given portion of human labour is, in accordance with the varying demand, at one time supplied in the form of tailoring, at another in the form of weaving. This change may possibly not take place without friction, but take place it must.


Most of this paragraph is a restatement of previous things. The most interesting parts are that a professional can do different types of concrete labour during one job; like tailoring and weaving, or making trousers and suits, and furthermore the social division of labour (ideally) apportions labour with regard to demand and supply. Again, Marx is aware of the troubles of linking the amount of labour with demand and supply, and the two, if they follow laws, follow them only in the aggregate on the backdrop of the usual 'lawless irregularities' of capital.



fdrake September 21, 2018 at 10:43 #213992
The next paragraph features a methodological reduction of labour in the abstract to simple labour in the abstract. While this was already set up with human labour in the abstract removing all specifics of labour; like goal and skill; it's important to be able to consider human labour in the abstract as a homogenous lump for the purposes of analysing value, since human labour in the abstract as a homogenous lump is what imbues a commodity with its value (direct price).

Productive activity, if we leave out of sight its special form, viz., the useful character of the labour, is nothing but the expenditure of human labour power. Tailoring and weaving, though qualitatively different productive activities, are each a productive expenditure of human brains, nerves, and muscles, and in this sense are human labour. They are but two different modes of expending human labour power. Of course, this labour power, which remains the same under all its modifications, must have attained a certain pitch of development before it can be expended in a multiplicity of modes.


Marx briefly notes that the historical accumulation of skills in skilled labour; of the vagaries and necessities of the transformation of nature to suit humanity; prefigures the development of social roles associated with types of skilled labour. Regardless, once labour entangles itself with social roles and skills, the products of those labour can be 'brought to market' and held equivalent in terms of value.


But the value of a commodity represents human labour in the abstract, the expenditure of human labour in general. And just as in society, a general or a banker plays a great part, but mere man, on the other hand, a very shabby part,[14] so here with mere human labour. It is the expenditure of simple labour power, i.e., of the labour power which, on an average, apart from any special development, exists in the organism of every ordinary individual. Simple average labour, it is true, varies in character in different countries and at different times, but in a particular society it is given. Skilled labour counts only as simple labour intensified, or rather, as multiplied simple labour, a given quantity of skilled being considered equal to a greater quantity of simple labour. Experience shows that this reduction is constantly being made.


Marx notes that skilled labour might be, and usually is, waged higher than simple labour. Regardless, Marx insists that because a given amount of skilled labour will always be equivalent to a given amount of unskilled labour in terms of the commodity value produced, it suffices to consider simple labour; simple labour is labour done with the average skill and average expenditure within a sphere or production (society). The argument here mirrors the previous arguments in thread (though they occur later in the book) of the isomorphism between direct prices and socially necessary labour times, and of proportion as an isomorphism of ordered fields. That is, dealing with skilled labour of a given sort, in the aggregate, requires only the scaling of that labour to unskilled or generic labour. Marx insists that this reduction, rather than being simply a methodological posit, is actually occurrent in capitalist societies. The evidence for this is of the different amounts people are payed for labours of different skill. Someone who builds computers from scratch will typically have a higher wage (within the same society) than someone who attaches washers to a product in a factory assembly line.

Marx concludes the argument thusly:

A commodity may be the product of the most skilled labour, but its value, by equating it to the product of simple unskilled labour, represents a definite quantity of the latter labour alone.[15] The different proportions in which different sorts of labour are reduced to unskilled labour as their standard, are established by a social process that goes on behind the backs of the producers, and, consequently, appear to be fixed by custom. For simplicity’s sake we shall henceforth account every kind of labour to be unskilled, simple labour; by this we do no more than save ourselves the trouble of making the reduction.


reaching the same conclusion.
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 10:49 #213995
Marx is still summarising the implications of his arguments relating concrete labour to use and abstract labour to exchange, and the properties of abstract labour to the magnitude of exchange value.

Just as, therefore, in viewing the coat and linen as values, we abstract from their different use values, so it is with the labour represented by those values: we disregard the difference between its useful forms, weaving and tailoring. As the use values, coat and linen, are combinations of special productive activities with cloth and yarn, while the values, coat and linen, are, on the other hand, mere homogeneous congelations of undifferentiated labour, so the labour embodied in these latter values does not count by virtue of its productive relation to cloth and yarn, but only as being expenditure of human labour power. Tailoring and weaving are necessary factors in the creation of the use values, coat and linen, precisely because these two kinds of labour are of different qualities; but only in so far as abstraction is made from their special qualities, only in so far as both possess the same quality of being human labour, do tailoring and weaving form the substance of the values of the same articles.


He is restating the implication that when two commodities enter into the exchange relation, their use values and features of concrete labour are not relevant to the value equivalence; only that they are the results of usefully productive exertion (labour power) and the duration of that labour power matter (up to proportion/isomorphism). In exchange in capitalist societies, commodities meet as the congelations of homogenous human labour in the abstract. In production for exchange, the commodities have this abstract equivalence socially embedded within them.
frank September 21, 2018 at 10:57 #213996
The labor time embodied by a commodity is partly the labor required to construct it. Some portion of the social investment in an item is overhead. This can also be looked at as labor (sort of): research and development, lawyers, strategists, logistics, and on and on. In a society where labor is pervasively mechanized, that overhead explodes across time and space as manufacturing labor time itself becomes meaningless.

So why would Marx focus simply on the labor directly involved in manufacture to gauge the magnitude of social investment in a commodity? In a way, the ideological theme of the 19th Century was human labor, and that continued through the first half of 20th Century. It's interesting to ponder what happened to that theme. But perhaps the prominence of that theme in Marx's lifetime affected his perspective?

fdrake September 21, 2018 at 12:26 #214006
Reply to frank

As in every other response to you in this thread, so far the discussion concerns value and value production. It is true that even the production of commodities has logistical, engineering and bureaucratic real price overheads which give the social and technical texture to the production of commodities; perhaps even logistics should be considered as part of the direct price. Regardless, the concern so far is direct price and its relationship to labour in commodity production.
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 12:40 #214008
Coats and linen, however, are not merely values, but values of definite magnitude, and according to our assumption, the coat is worth twice as much as the ten yards of linen. Whence this difference in their values? It is owing to the fact that the linen contains only half as much labour as the coat, and consequently, that in the production of the latter, labour power must have been expended during twice the time necessary for the production of the former.


A simple restatement of the proportionality derived above. Direct price is proportional to the quantity produced and inversely proportional to the productivity of labour.

While, therefore, with reference to use value, the labour contained in a commodity counts only qualitatively, with reference to value it counts only quantitatively, and must first be reduced to human labour pure and simple. In the former case, it is a question of How and What, in the latter of How much? How long a time? Since the magnitude of the value of a commodity represents only the quantity of labour embodied in it, it follows that all commodities, when taken in certain proportions, must be equal in value.


Again, use value and concrete labour align on the axis of quality, value and abstract labour align on the axis of quantity. Also see previous discussion of why socially necessary labour time manifests in direct price. The 'equality in value for certain proportions' component of this prefigures the discussion of the value form in the next section.

An increase in the quantity of use values is an increase of material wealth. With two coats two men can be clothed, with one coat only one man. Nevertheless, an increased quantity of material wealth may correspond to a simultaneous fall in the magnitude of its value. This antagonistic movement has its origin in the two-fold character of labour. Productive power has reference, of course, only to labour of some useful concrete form, the efficacy of any special productive activity during a given time being dependent on its productiveness. Useful labour becomes, therefore, a more or less abundant source of products, in proportion to the rise or fall of its productiveness. On the other hand, no change in this productiveness affects the labour represented by value. Since productive power is an attribute of the concrete useful forms of labour, of course it can no longer have any bearing on that labour, so soon as we make abstraction from those concrete useful forms. However then productive power may vary, the same labour, exercised during equal periods of time, always yields equal amounts of value. But it will yield, during equal periods of time, different quantities of values in use; more, if the productive power rise, fewer, if it fall. The same change in productive power, which increases the fruitfulness of labour, and, in consequence, the quantity of use values produced by that labour, will diminish the total value of this increased quantity of use values, provided such change shorten the total labour time necessary for their production; and vice versâ


Some of this is an echo of the distinction between concrete and abstract labour. But, concrete and abstract labour become linked conceptually and conceptually to value in the sense of real abstractions through the productivity of concrete labour. The productive power of concrete labour producing a given commodity scales inversely to its socially necessary labour time. Productivity provides the means of embodiment of abstract labour within its concretions; the concrete conditions of production distributed over every commodity.

A consequence of this is the decoupling of material wealth magnitudes in terms of use-value satisfaction and material wealth magnitudes in terms of exchange value - it costs less to obtain something which is produced more quickly, an a horde of a rare use value with high exchange rate can become devalued when the socially necessary labour time for the items in that horde decreases in the aggregate.

The decoupling of use and exchange, the intermingling of concrete and abstract labours in productivity, and the destruction of specificity in magnitude of value comparisons pave the way for the analysis of the value form - how a commodity becomes branded with value, how that value expresses underpinning social conditions of production, and how the magnitude of that value is linked to other commodities and human labour in the abstract. Marx puts it thusly (footnote A):

Now we know the substance of value. It is labour. We know the measure of its magnitude. It is labour time. The form, which stamps value as exchange-value, remains to be analysed. But before this we need to develop the characteristics we have already found somewhat more fully.

frank September 21, 2018 at 12:41 #214009
Quoting fdrake
perhaps even logistics should be considered as part of the direct price.


It is, and it varies greatly from one country to the next. Another feature of labor that goes into commodity creation is a society's physical infrastructure, roads that facilitate the transfer of supplies, that sort of thing. So again, the direct price (or labor time) is actually scattered far and wide.

This is one of the reasons that manufacturing accounting is a world apart. The human labor time that's congealed in a can of green beans is incalculable.
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 12:44 #214010
The brevity of the second section suits its function as an interlude between the analysis of use and exchange values - and their linkage with concrete and abstract labour - in the first section, and the analysis of the social and logical/mathematical structure of trade in the third section. The second section serves this end by recapitulating the notion of human labour in the abstract and showing how concrete and abstract labour become linked in the commodity through productivity.

The single major term which is introduced here is human labour power, which is useful, productive exertion. Another major highlight in the chapter is that in order for a commodity to have an exchange value, its use value must be a social use value; that is useful to the aggregate.
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 12:47 #214011
Reply to frank

It is, and it varies greatly from one country to the next. Another feature of labor that goes into commodity creation is a society's physical infrastructure, roads that facilitate the transfer of supplies, that sort of thing. So again, the direct price (or labor time) is actually scattered far and wide.


Yeah. I agree with this, but I think it's a part of the account. Read the bits I wrote on the decomposition of commodities into labour sources and assembly times again if it's unclear.

Also, something being hard to estimate or get a handle on has never stopped economists from trying. I think direct price is actually a very useful tool in thinking about production in general - it's relatively time stable and definitely linked to the real costs of production and profit rates; and I also think Marx's analysis of the value form( s ) (his 'theory of value', thread title), is extremely persuasive.
frank September 21, 2018 at 13:09 #214014
Quoting fdrake
Also, something being hard to estimate or get a handle on has never stopped economists from trying.


I don't think either economists or accountants try to estimate the actual labor time in commodities (if we extend our assessment out to the broader well of labor time). Nobody does that. To even start, you'd probably look to the kind of statistical analysis industrial engineers do.

Quoting fdrake
I think direct price is actually a very useful tool in thinking about production in general - it's relatively time stable and definitely linked to the real costs of production and profit rates; and I also think Marx's analysis of the value form( s ) (his 'theory of value', thread title), is extremely persuasive.


That's cool that you find it useful.

Profit is return on investment. Where there is human labor, that's an aspect of investment. But how does that work when the labor market is global? For instance, China uses free labor in the form of incarcerated Africans. The "society" here is global. There is no global government, so maybe we could think of this as something closer to true unregulated capitalism.

The investment the Chinese make has to do with how they persuade Africans to accept this arrangement. I don't doubt that some bribe money is part of the investment.



fdrake September 21, 2018 at 13:15 #214019
Reply to frank

I'm unsure if you've actually been reading what I write. Lots of the posts I've made highlight that 'society' for Marx is a placeholder.
frank September 21, 2018 at 13:31 #214022
Reply to fdrake I also doubt that you read what I write.

In some cases it's easy to link labor time with profit. Sometimes not.

Can we really limit our view to hard commodities? We're looking at a part of the global economy that isn't produced using software. So that rules out any manufacturing that involves CAD/CAM. We're talking about Africa and Indonesia. A little bit of core nation labor.
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 13:40 #214023
Reply to frank

There's another 2 volumes left of the account frank. Marx doesn't restrict his view to commodities eventually. There's analysis of debt, speculation, credit, stores of value, different coupled productive spheres etc etc. I think you're attributing limitations to the account which aren't there, and I'm not going to go through them - at least not before I'm finished going through what I said I would in volume 1.

So yes, the analysis so far is limited. It's about 20-30 usual book pages into a 2.5k page work - with lots of accompanying relevant essays.
frank September 21, 2018 at 13:54 #214026
Reply to fdrake Cool. His predictions about speculation are famous.

It's fascinating to look at commodities in terms of over-all social investment using units of time. In a way that's what a human life is: a certain amount of lived time.

A fair amount of the technological explosion that started in the 19th Century (and continues today) had to do with time. Productivity is output over labor time, so mechanization resulted in super-productivity.

But think about it: why did actual production explode? Why didn't we just drop the work day to 5 hours instead of 8?

I think I know why.

Carry on!
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 13:57 #214028
Reply to frank

Ironically enough you don't have to wait that long in volume 1 to get to parts dealing with the content of this post. It begins in chapter 3 with the circulation of commodities and money.
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 15:25 #214041
Section 3

THE FORM OF VALUE OR EXCHANGE VALUE

Marx has spent a lot of time setting up the notion of value as it occurs within commodities, and how it facilitates exchange of somehow 'equal' commodities. The abstract equivalence (sortal & numeric) of socially necessary labour time and the direct price of a commodity has been laid bare, but what hasn't been part of the account is the structure of value and how this structure prefigures and is embodied in exchange. Maybe a useful distinction here to set up where Marx is going is exchange in the abstract and concrete acts of exchange; so far, the realities of trade and the social relations around it have played little part in the determination of commodities as equal subjects of exchange, even less so how the social relations in an economy mathematically/logically structure exchange.

We know so far that commodities of equivalent value can be exchanged, and we know that the magnitude of value is embodied in the direct price as expressed in socially necessary labour time; but we don't know the structure of value which facilitates this equation for exchange at large. That is to say, extra work needs to be done to reveal the structure of value within the commodity that allows it to be (always-already) equivalent to another of equal value. That is, Marx needs to spend some time exhibiting exchange in the abstract; its general features without reliance on specific trades, the general properties of trade that are essential to specific social organisations of trade. He then needs to fold this exchange in the abstract into concrete acts of exchange of equivalent value; showing how the logical structure of value reproduces itself through commodity and money flows.

The first part of the above; dealing with exchange in the abstract; is of determining the value-form of value in capitalist societies. The second part is in showing how the value form is carried forth in the concrete acts of exchange. Exchange in the abstract is the topic of section 3, the concretion of it is more fully developed in chapters 2 and 3 - dealing specifically with exchange then the circulation of commodities through money.

So, Marx has already demonstrated that socially necessary labour time, and thus direct price, inheres in commodities through the productivity of their corresponding labour. What is at stake in section 3 here is the logical/mathematical/algebraic structure of that inherence. It is half of the core of Marx's value theory, the other being the analysis of concrete exchange as it plays out under capitalist rules.

Much of section 3 is recapitulated in chapter 3 section 1 in order to relate it to concrete exchange and circulation; so a very dense exhibition of Marx's value theory was the original intention for this thread. Since the thread has been of interest to some posters, I decided to continue it - so the analysis of the next section will consist of more thorough exhibition of Marx's theory of value. Of course, it will come along with my usual mathematical embellishments.
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 19:45 #214068

Commodities come into the world in the shape of use values, articles, or goods, such as iron, linen, corn, &c. This is their plain, homely, bodily form. They are, however, commodities, only because they are something two-fold, both objects of utility, and, at the same time, depositories of value. They manifest themselves therefore as commodities, or have the form of commodities, only in so far as they have two forms, a physical or natural form, and a value form.


Marx recaps: commodities are only commodities only insofar as they have use and exchange values. Use values are always a product of concrete, social labour, exchange values are always a product of human labour in the abstract - the coincidence of both of these features is the mark of the commodity.

The reality of the value of commodities differs in this respect from Dame Quickly, that we don’t know “where to have it.” The value of commodities is the very opposite of the coarse materiality of their substance, not an atom of matter enters into its composition. Turn and examine a single commodity, by itself, as we will, yet in so far as it remains an object of value, it seems impossible to grasp it. If, however, we bear in mind that the value of commodities has a purely social reality, and that they acquire this reality only in so far as they are expressions or embodiments of one identical social substance, viz., human labour, it follows as a matter of course, that value can only manifest itself in the social relation of commodity to commodity. In fact we started from exchange value, or the exchange relation of commodities, in order to get at the value that lies hidden behind it. We must now return to this form under which value first appeared to us.


Not an atom of value is found upon dissection of the commodity - no assay of a material item will provide more insight into the composition of its value than staring at it blankly. Rather, value is found in the social relations which surround the thing and become embedded into it as the manifestation of a social function. The value of a commodity consists in the social relations which underpin its production and exchange, thus the conceptual analysis of the value of a commodity is to be embarked upon by analysing social relations of exchange and the abstract features of production.

The aim of the investigation is to find that social mechanism, and its mathematical/logical grammar, which imbues the commodity with value and facilitates it to be exchanged with others of equal value. There is somewhat of a 'left turn' here in the analysis, the initial focus on exchange as the exchange of commodities is now being leveraged into an analysis of the values which permeate that exchange and lend it its features in capitalist production.

Every one knows, if he knows nothing else, that commodities have a value form common to them all, and presenting a marked contrast with the varied bodily forms of their use values. I mean their money form. Here, however, a task is set us, the performance of which has never yet even been attempted by bourgeois economy, the task of tracing the genesis of this money form, of developing the expression of value implied in the value relation of commodities, from its simplest, almost imperceptible outline, to the dazzling money-form. By doing this we shall, at the same time, solve the riddle presented by money.


Marx highlights a problem which the economists of his time, and the conventional wisdom you will still find in economics textbooks, pay no attention to. Everyone and their dog knows that everything has a price, and since prices are all we see pricing is seen as a subjective act, as an affectation of a supply/demand model, or as the empirical subject of a willingness to pay study. These are the usual recourses to explain why everything has a price and why it has the price it has. Marx seeks to ask a deeper set of questions; what is it about an economy that allows everything to have a price? What is it about an economy that is facilitated by money? How does money obtain its value? To say that the value of money is determined by a pricing mechanism is as well as saying the sleep inducing effects of tramadol are caused by its soporific properties; that is to say nothing of note and coat it with different words. The question of pricing mechanisms as they work in capitalist economy is a lot different from the questions regarding what allows value to obtain of commodities and money in the first place. The question of value underpins the question of price.

Whenever an economic crisis comes - most recently in 2008 - we see talk of 'bubbles bursting'. Economic bubbles arise from the over pricing of an asset suddenly collapsing towards its true price. What allows us to distinguish the over priced asset from the truly priced one? Well, the true price is invariably lower than the over priced asset - but if we were to concede to an account of political economy that begins solely with a pricing mechanism, an asset can only be seen as over valued with relation to a sharp drop in its price, until the price drops the pricing mechanism has the final say. Even highly sophisticated econometric methods, such as the analysis of asset growth using wavelet methods to screen for impending crashes, or the thresholding of instantaneous variance in stochastic volatility models to mitigate unpredictable large losses attempt to describe the precursors in the price mechanism which may signal the over valuation of an asset. But of course, this is a symptom of the properties of the economy which underly the proximity of changes. And we would be as well as saying that the increase in body temperature due to a fever was really due to the increase in bodily temperature, as we would in saying that instabilities in price curves and the pricing mechanism are the systemic cause of the popped bubble.

Again, this state of affairs is a rather strange one; if a close friend suddenly starts behaving very differently, we definitely could give the following account: the friend behaved different before, the friend behaves different now. But if all we had to judge on was the relation of short term behavioural changes, we might as well say that the friend was behaving normally before, and now they are behaving normally despite the observed difference. Of course, anyone truly interested in their close friend would wonder things like: 'what has brought about this change contrary to their personality?' or 'what has caused their personality to change?'.

Just as with the bubble; 'what about the previous trend popped the bubble?' or 'what forced the dominance of the post bubble trend?'. Systematic investment; all our skin in the game; demands we be able to ask these questions; and a theory of value accompanied by a theory of price is one way to make room for them. These are important questions, politicians, business owners, economists and members of think tanks require, use and supply analyses of them; people pay a lot of money to get these questions to have the answers they want. People pay a lot of money to anyone willing and skilled enough to try answer these kind of questions.

The tensions underpinning changes in price effect us all, and if it were so 'lawless and irregular', we should be more surprised at the often successful efforts of the rich and powerful to harness these 'lawless irregularities' for their overwhelming benefit.

frank September 21, 2018 at 20:37 #214080
The thing that's odd about a speculative bubble is that people buy a commodity (such as swamp land in Florida circa 1929) with the expectation that they will sell it and make a short term profit. IOW, they aren't buying it to use it, and they aren't engaging in conservative long term investment. The commodity market has become a casino. Another sign is that people who don't normally engage in gambling enter the commodity market with their extra money hoping to become rich.

The bubble is self reinforcing, but all markets experience undulation. Just the smallest downturn in the casino-commodity-market can trigger a sell off. The bubble pops and a "panic" occurs. The price of the commodity drops as the expectation turns the other way.

Why do bubbles happen? They may be a sign of over-concentration of wealth. That theory says that only the super-wealthy have the means to start a bubble.

The 2008 crash wasn't caused by a commodity market bubble crash. The housing market did crash, but that didn't bring down Bear Stearns et al. It was a financial product called a derivative that accomplished that. It's a kind of insurance.
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 20:45 #214083
Reply to frank

I'm having a real hard time gauging what the intentions behind your posts in this thread are.
frank September 21, 2018 at 20:49 #214085
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 20:55 #214087
Reply to frank

I mean what are they? I don't understand if it's criticism; I never claimed that the 2008 crisis was brought about through the crash of a commodity market, nor did I deny the self reinforcing feedback mechanisms that can amplify the rate of devaluation of financial assets.
frank September 21, 2018 at 21:05 #214090
Reply to fdrake I'm not criticizing.

I think Marx would have been interested in the ancient palace economy and why it disappeared. I'm off to read more about that. Thanks for the inspiration!
fdrake September 21, 2018 at 21:08 #214091
Reply to frank
No worries!
fdrake September 22, 2018 at 10:04 #214171
Going through section 2 again, I got some details about the elementary form of value wrong - symmetry of the trade relation is baked in from the start. The elementary form of value consists of otherwise unstructured symmetric pairs of pairs, so instead of just being the minimal reflexive relation, it's the minimal reflexive+symmetric relation of trades seen from either side - another feature of it is that the relation is not consistent with a strict ordering on trades. There's also a discussion to be had over whether stipulating that the T relation is reflexive is a harmless embellishment, a decent exegesis or occludes part of Marx's account, which I will do. The expanded form still appears to consist in the transitivity condition and the money commodity still appears to function like the canonical representative of a value equivalence class, though the formal equality of these ideas with Marx's turns on whether it's OK to treat the trade relation as reflexive.

So yeah, there's some work to do - clearing up previous misconceptions and discussing the introduction of orders that respect the value relation and the commutative monoid of commodities. What I wrote previously - especially the bits after the elementary form - I believe is largely fine.

note to self: sum like vs mean like orders in prospect theory
fdrake September 22, 2018 at 14:35 #214191
Marx recaps the 'spectral objectivity' of value in commodities and sets up what is at stake in providing a theory of value.

Commodities come into the world in the shape of use values, articles, or goods, such as iron, linen, corn, &c. This is their plain, homely, bodily form. They are, however, commodities, only because they are something two-fold, both objects of utility, and, at the same time, depositories of value. They manifest themselves therefore as commodities, or have the form of commodities, only in so far as they have two forms, a physical or natural form, and a value form.


This paragraph is an elaboration of the idea that commodities are composites of use and exchange value; the elaboration being that exchange value has some formal characteristics apart from the aforementioned relationship with socially necessary labour times. This formal structure of value in commodities is the ground upon which the magnitudes of value make sense...

The reality of the value of commodities differs in this respect from Dame Quickly, that we don’t know “where to have it.” The value of commodities is the very opposite of the coarse materiality of their substance, not an atom of matter enters into its composition. Turn and examine a single commodity, by itself, as we will, yet in so far as it remains an object of value, it seems impossible to grasp it. If, however, we bear in mind that the value of commodities has a purely social reality, and that they acquire this reality only in so far as they are expressions or embodiments of one identical social substance, viz., human labour, it follows as a matter of course, that value can only manifest itself in the social relation of commodity to commodity. In fact we started from exchange value, or the exchange relation of commodities, in order to get at the value that lies hidden behind it. We must now return to this form under which value first appeared to us.


and situates the structural analysis of value, initially, within an account of exchange as the exchange of commodities...

Every one knows, if he knows nothing else, that commodities have a value form common to them all, and presenting a marked contrast with the varied bodily forms of their use values. I mean their money form. Here, however, a task is set us, the performance of which has never yet even been attempted by bourgeois economy, the task of tracing the genesis of this money form, of developing the expression of value implied in the value relation of commodities, from its simplest, almost imperceptible outline, to the dazzling money-form. By doing this we shall, at the same time, solve the riddle presented by money.


which comes to underpin the application of prices to them. Thus...

The simplest value-relation is evidently that of one commodity to some one other commodity of a different kind. Hence the relation between the values of two commodities supplies us with the simplest expression of the value of a single commodity.


we begin with the simplest example of exchange; exchange of one commodity for another.
frank September 22, 2018 at 16:11 #214203
Quoting fdrake
exchange of one commodity for another.


Transfer of property rights? That's how gift economies are described, but there's worry that this is an ethnocentric description.
fdrake September 22, 2018 at 16:20 #214205
This is 'old ground' for the thread, but it is presented in a lot more detail (and with one of my misconceptions cleared up).

SUBSECTION A: The Elementary or Accidental Form Of Value

{

Marx's pictogram of this constituent of the value form

x commodity A = y commodity B, or
x commodity A is worth y commodity B.

20 yards of linen = 1 coat, or
20 Yards of linen are worth 1 coat.

}

SUBSUBSECTION 1: The two poles of the expression of value. Relative form and Equivalent form

This part of the account locates two components of the value form; the relative form of value and the equivalent form of value; and exhibits a structural symmetry between them. The equivalent and relative forms of value are a necessary constituent of the form of value. The relative and equivalent form together specify the behaviour of the value form whenever we say that x has the same value as y. Whenever we can say that x has the same value as y; ie whenever the relative and equivalent form are jointly in play; we can say that the elementary form of value is at play too. Additional structure will be applied to the elementary form of value, yielding more constrained (yet algebraically more rich) forms of value.

Note that underpinning this account is the commensurability of commodities under the analysis of socially necessary labour time (and its direct price, a term which has its conceptual origin here, though it is not used explicitly by Marx).

The whole mystery of the form of value lies hidden in this elementary form. Its analysis, therefore, is our real difficulty.


In a similar sense to which the analysis of capital pivots upon the analysis of the commodity, the analysis of the exchange value of that commodity pivots on the understanding of the elementary form of value - which then leads to the exegesis of richer forms of value that can subsume the elementary form.

Here two different kinds of commodities (in our example the linen and the coat), evidently play two different parts. The linen expresses its value in the coat; the coat serves as the material in which that value is expressed. The former plays an active, the latter a passive, part. The value of the linen is represented as relative value, or appears in relative form. The coat officiates as equivalent, or appears in equivalent form.


User image


At this point, I will introduce the relation T. T is a relation on a set of commodities C. Whenever x is related in way T to y, I will write xTy, Formally, a relation on a set X is a set of ordered pairs of objects from X. In this way, T will be a relation on C. Read 'T' as 'is worth the same as', so xTy is read 'x is worth y'.

Marx begins with an example of the linen and the coat; say 2 square yards of linen is worth 1 coat. Then we have, abbreviating, (2 linen)T(1 coat). This is the relative form of value for 2 linen, and 1 coat is serving as the equivalent.

The next paragraph asks the question of whether (2 linen)T(2 linen) gives the value of linen in linen.

The relative form and the equivalent form are two intimately connected, mutually dependent and inseparable elements of the expression of value; but, at the same time, are mutually exclusive, antagonistic extremes – i.e., poles of the same expression. They are allotted respectively to the two different commodities brought into relation by that expression. It is not possible to express the value of linen in linen. 20 yards of linen = 20 yards of linen is no expression of value. On the contrary, such an equation merely says that 20 yards of linen are nothing else than 20 yards of linen, a definite quantity of the use value linen. The value of the linen can therefore be expressed only relatively – i.e., in some other commodity. The relative form of the value of the linen presupposes, therefore, the presence of some other commodity – here the coat – under the form of an equivalent. On the other hand, the commodity that figures as the equivalent cannot at the same time assume the relative form. That second commodity is not the one whose value is expressed. Its function is merely to serve as the material in which the value of the first commodity is expressed.


Marx answers 'no'; "It is not possible to express the value of linen in linen. 20 yards of linen = 20 yards of linen is no expression of value. On the contrary, such an equation merely says that 20 yards of linen are nothing else than 20 yards of linen, a definite quantity of the use value linen.".

It is certainly true that the value of linen will always be the value of linen, irrelevant of what that value is, just as it is true that the value of a coat will always be the value of a coat. Marx suggests that because '2 linen is worth 2 linen' does nothing to express the value of linen relative to anything else, that it cannot be an expression of the relative value of linen; simultaneously, x cannot serve as the equivalent form for x. I grant that this is true; it is completely uninformative about the value of linen to say that it is worth linen.

When two distinct commodities were brought into the exchange relation in section 1, the qualitative particularity of each could not serve as the quantitative measure for both as equal; all concrete particularities of labour were agglomerated into human labour in the abstract. Marx suggests that this account; by which two distinct commodities were exhibited in their equivalence; would not work for the same commodity to exhibit it in equivalence with itself; the commodity is itself in every way. The meeting of a commodity with itself in exchange may be seen as a degenerate, impossible case that undermines Marx's argument of the relation of time and value. See just below to ground this point in the text:

It is not possible to express the value of linen in linen. 20 yards of linen = 20 yards of linen is no expression of value. [b]On the contrary, such an equation merely says that 20 yards of linen are nothing else than 20 yards of linen, a definite quantity of the USE VALUE linen.


My claims:
(1) Marx suggests that this account; by which two distinct commodities were exhibited in their equivalence; would not work for the same commodity to exhibit it in equivalence with itself; the commodity is itself in every way.
(2) the qualitative particularity of each could not serve as the quantitative measure for both as equal; all concrete particularities of labour were agglomerated into human labour in the abstract.

(1) is rooted in the use of 'are', bolded and italicised, in the above quote.
(2) is rooted in the last clause of the bolded sentence, with reference to the 'USE VALUE' of linen which I capitalised. Linen meets itself, so it still meets itself as an amount of a concrete particular.

This comes down to the question of whether T is reflexive; whether for all x: xTx. Perhaps Marx would answer no, but I would like to argue that this additional assumption does no damage Marx's account, and is worthwhile on the basis of its utility in formalising his value theory.

While it is true that linen meeting linen would not allow the derivation of the relationship of human labour in the abstract to value, in terms of the socially necessary labour time of linen, if a meeting of linen with another commodity had already been posited, the concrete particularities of linen as a use value would still be excluded from the relation expressing its value. This is to say, we may say xTx and 'x is the same as x' can mean different things. Specifically, xTy says 'x is worth y'; a numerical equality of something in each in some unit of measure; whereas 'x is the same as y' is a full identity of all properties.

So yes, I am in agreement with Marx on both points; that xTx tells you nothing about the specific value of x, and that xTx could not be analysed in the same way to argue for abstract labour's magnitudinal relation to time. But I believe that if we consider xTx, xTy, yTx and yTy together, we still exhibit the relative form of x in y; in which y is the equivalent (xTy). And the relative form of y in x; in which x is the equivalent (yTx), so in (xTx) and (yTy), the commodities can already be understood not to meet as identical use values, but to meet as numerically identical exchange values. The instances of the relation xTx and yTy are still value uninformative; and this property aligns well with the reflexivity of T. Just as with usual mathematical equality, x=x, we don't immediately derive a conceptual contradiction regarding relative and equivalent forms because x=x for all x, we treat x=x as an uninformative tautology about the value of x.

So from now on, I will assume that T is a reflexive relation, and that this does no damage to Marx's account.

Marx continues:

No doubt, the expression 20 yards of linen = 1 coat, or 20 yards of linen are worth 1 coat, implies the opposite relation. 1 coat = 20 yards of linen, or 1 coat is worth 20 yards of linen. But, in that case, I must reverse the equation, in order to express the value of the coat relatively; and so soon as I do that the linen becomes the equivalent instead of the coat. A single commodity cannot, therefore, simultaneously assume, in the same expression of value, both forms. The very polarity of these forms makes them mutually exclusive.


The two sentences are important for the mathematical structure of T:

No doubt, the expression 20 yards of linen = 1 coat, or 20 yards of linen are worth 1 coat, implies the opposite relation. 1 coat = 20 yards of linen, or 1 coat is worth 20 yards of linen.


This is literally the meaning of the symmetry of a relation: if xTy then yTx. If x is worth y then y is also worth x. This establishes that T is symmetric. It is now reflexive and symmetric. But it is worth lingering a little here to highlight some extra mathematical structure that Marx is aware of.

But, in that case, I must reverse the equation, in order to express the value of the coat relatively; and so soon as I do that the linen becomes the equivalent instead of the coat.


If C = {x,y}, and xTy, then T on y is:

[math]T=\{ \{x,x\}, \{y,y\}, \{x,y\},\{y,x\}\}[/math]

from symmetry and reflexivity. Look at what happens when we reverse the order in which elements are brought under T, calling this new relation T*

[math]T^*=\{ \{x,x\}, \{y,y\}, \{y,x\},\{x,y\}\}[/math]

it's exactly the same relation as T, just with the order of the last two pairs flipped. So:

[math]T=T^*[/math]

those familiar with some order or category theory may notice that T is self dual. This means it is the same as before when the order of all pairs is flipped. Writing this out in words might make the (for me, squee inducing) conclusion clearer:

T is: (1) x is worth x
(2) y is worth y
(3) x is worth y (x relative, y equivalent)
(4) y is worth x (y relative, x equivalent)

T* is: (1) x is worth x
(2) y is worth y
(3) y is worth x (y relative, x equivalent)
(4) x is worth y (x relative, y equivalent)

the part of the relation dealing with the relative and equivalent forms of value inverse their order when the order of the pairs are reversed. This means that the notion of relative form is dual to the equivalent form in the category theoretic sense, and the relation of values T is self dual as a consequence of that (and of symmetry).

Whether, then, a commodity assumes the relative form, or the opposite equivalent form, depends entirely upon its accidental position in the expression of value – that is, upon whether it is the commodity whose value is being expressed or the commodity in which value is being expressed.


And it seems Marx was aware of this duality of structures - assuming the relative or equivalent form are just positional accidents which imply the other accident. The structure Marx diagnoses of the elementary form of value is unperturbed by the assumption of the reflexivity of the 'is worth' relation.
fdrake September 22, 2018 at 16:23 #214207
Reply to frank

The role property rights play in capital comes later. Just before the dolphins.
frank September 22, 2018 at 16:32 #214209
Reply to fdrake Ok. But nobody would trade 20 yds of linen for 20 yds of linen (if the bolts were identical.)
fdrake September 22, 2018 at 16:32 #214210
fdrake September 22, 2018 at 20:33 #214245
What would the exchange relations look like in a mode of production that satisfied the elementary form of value? This breaks down into two questions:

(1) What would the exchange relations look like in a mode of production that satisfied the elementary form of value alone with no additional constraints?
(2) If (1) does not look like the capitalist mode of production, what additional constraints are required to more accurately model the form of value in capitalist production?

The logical space of exchange relations which satisfy (1) is very broad, and does not even need to have a stable numerical equivalence of values over repeated exchanges. This can be shown thusly:

If we have 4 commodities, x=1 coat, y= 1 pair of trousers, z=1 yards of linen,2z=2 yards of linen. Assume they trade concretely like:
(1) 1 coat is worth 1 pair of trousers|xTy
(2) 1 pair of trousers is worth 1 yard of linen|yTz
(3) 2 yards of linen is worth 1 coat|2zTx

then make it satisfy the symmetry condition (flipping the relations around):

(4) 1 pair of trousers is worth 1 coat| yTx
(5) 1 yard of linen is worth 1 pair of trousers| zTy
(6) 1 coat is worth 2 yards of linen| xT2z

Say I start with z = 1 yard of linen.

z->y->x->2z is a possible sequence of trades, using zTy, yTx, xT2z. This means we could start with 1 yard of linen and end up with 2 despite only going through trades of equivalent value. To be able to say that 1 yard of linen is worth 2 yards of linen through the medium of exchange should tell us that something is very different from how exchange works under capitalist production. IE that the elementary form of value alone and without additional constraints is not a good picture of how value works in capitalist societies, at least most of the time.

It is within the potential of the elementary form of value to amplify (or diminish) the value owned through trade of things held equivalent, which is to say that considerations of value magnitude are only done relationally through T and not through an equation of numerical magnitudes of the same unit. The ability to alter held values in this manner is unlikely to survive in a stable community which has common knowledge of how much of one thing trades for another. Thus the situations this raw elementary form of value could hold sway in are those that have sufficiently rapid fluctuations in the relative values of commodities (fluctuations more rapid than the actions of trade) or when some part of the system of exchanges occurs isolated from another.

Another thing to note is that the elementary form of value doesn't need to have anything which resembles money in any way; all commodities are as good as any other as the repositories of value. Under the conditions above, if there were a common currency for the system of exchange it could literally be used to buy more of itself through a series of favourable trades, supposedly of equal 'value'.

Such a mitosis of money has precedents in the real world. However, the mitosis in reality leverages temporal instabilities in the trade relation - which are juxtaposed without temporal indices in the elementary form. The elementary form above should hence be thought of as the elementary form at a given time and place because the determination of its features depends more on accidental irregularity than essential regularities.
fdrake September 24, 2018 at 07:54 #214709
I think there's some additional work that needs to be done at this point, the details could be glossed over and you could understand Marx's value theory regardless, but because I'm trying to take an algebraic approach to Marx's value theory when a mathematical problem presents itself I have to address it.

Given the elementary form of value, it makes sense to ask questions like "if 1 coat trades for 1 pair of trousers, and if 2 yards of linen trade for 1 suit jacket, if I have 1 coat and 2 yards of linen can I trade both for 1 pair of trousers and a suit jacket?'. The question here is whether there is any algebraic structure to the set of possible trades involving multiple goods.

My account has changed a little, the basic ideas were right but I flubbed some of the detail. In order to make sense of multi-commodity trades, let's look at the difference between buying beef mince from a butcher in a specific weight (called BM), and buying beef mince from a supermarket in a wrapped packet (called SM).

If I was writing a shopping list, the only possible amounts of SM which could be obtained are non-negative integer multiples. This is to say that I could buy 1 packet, 2 packets, 3 packets and so on, or indeed 0 packets and buy none. SM comes in discrete amounts.

Whereas, on the same shopping list, I could buy non-discrete amounts of BM. 50 grams, 53.1 grams, 100 grams, 1.23456kg and so on. GM comes in amounts which are infinitely divisible.

I think these properties exhaust the possible amounts commodities could be bought in: either you have a discrete amount or you have an infinitely divisible amount (in principle but not in practice). If it turned out that there was a smallest denomination of every given commodity of which every possible amount was a multiple, the discrete amounts alone would suffice. But I don't think it's fair to make this assumption given that things like meat can be bought in approximated fractions of any given amount.

I will call the collection of amounts which a commodity can come in the amount-structure of a commodity. Just like a shopping list, it's required to be able to write down any amount possible of the commodity, but also to be able to add on or scale the amount by a number to adjust for different recipes or different numbers of people eating and so on.

Commodities like SM which come in discrete units I will call discrete commodities, commodities like BM which come in approximated infinitely divisible amounts I will call continuous commodities. I'll now discuss the amount-structure of SM.

If I buy an SM, then buy another SM, this is the same as buying 2 SM. Similarly, if I wanted to buy 1 SM but needed to scale up for more company, I could buy 2*1SM and get 2 SM. This says that the amount-structure of discrete commodities, henceforth called the discrete amount structure, has two mathematical operations contained in it which interact: addition of other amounts of SM, and multiplication of all amounts present by some non-negative integer. This means that dealing with SM is exactly the same as dealing with the non-negative integers under addition and multiplication. Such additions and multiplications obey the distributive law c*(a+b)SM = ca + cb SM and are commutative and associative. There can be no subtraction or division of amounts, since -1SM and 0.5SM are not possible numbers of commodities to buy (respectively). There are two identities, if I multiply an amount by 1, it remains the same., similarly if I add a 0 amount. So the discrete amount structure for a single commodity is a commutative semiring with multiplicative (1) and additive (0) identity elements.. It also needs to be assumed that SM = 1 SM, which is essentially a notational convenience.

If I buy a weight X of BM, then I could scale it up by 1.5 and still have a buyable amount of BM, 1.5X BM. I could also divide X by 2 and have a buyable amount, 0.5X BM. I could double then halve the amount of BM and receive the original amount. I still cannot buy -1 BM however. Addition and multiplication also follow the distributive law together. These together mean that the continuous amount structure has a commutative semigroup with identity (0) as its additive component, and a commutative group (with identity 1 and multiplicative inverses) when ignoring 0 (which has no multiplicative inverse).

The last thing which needs to be clarified before proceeding is what it means to write down, say, 1 coat + 1 pair of trousers; to demarcate the possible combinations of the commodities. For a set of commodities with the same amount structure, defining the set C of commodities present in their canonical amounts (like 1 SM 2 paragraphs above) and equipping it with free addition - writing symbols side by side with a plus between - suffices. This can be thought of as writing down two items on a shopping list from the possible things which can be bought from the store. It is also the case that the order things are written down don't matter. This makes (as before) the set C the commutative free semigroup under addition.

These observations give the tools to go a little further. What if in addition to SM I would like to buy a coat? Well, the amount structures are the same, so I could say I will buy 1 SM + 1 coat, where + is understood as agglomerating the objects into a shopping list. I could add any amount of coats or an amount of SM and still obtain a viable shopping list of goods. If I wanted to double the amount of coats and triple the amount of SM I could do that too. So what should be formalised is essentially many labelled copies of the same amount structure occurring side by side without influencing each other (eg, ruling out things like 1SM + 2 coats = 3SM). The appropriate definition then is very much like a module over a ring, but since there aren't additive inverses for the discrete amount structure it can't be a ring. Regardless, it will follow some of the same rules:

We have a set of discrete commodities DC, each of which has the same amount structure M (the non-negative integers). The addition and multiplication, from the previous discussion, follow the laws:

(A) r*(x+y)=r*x+r*y, for all r in DC and x,y non-negative integers
(B) (r+s)*x=r*x+s*x, for all r,s in DC and x non-negative integers

(A) formalises that adding the amounts before you buy them to obtain the intended amount is the same as buying distinct amounts which sum to the intended amount.
EG: SM*( 1 + 2 ) = 1 SM + 2 SM
(B) formalises that you can scale your entire shopping list up by any non-negative integer and this is the same as buying that multiple of each item.
EG: (SM + coat)*2 = 2*SM + 2*coat

This structure will be called (DC,+,*).

An analogous argument holds for the continuous amount structure on the set CC and it also satisfies A and B but with x,y rational or real. That structure will be called (CC,+,*). This allows the aggregation of arbitrarily many discrete and arbitrarily many continuous commodities, but does not solve the riddle of their interaction; the structure of writing down 1 SM + 0.5 BM still needs to be fleshed out.

If it helps, writing down examples for the continuous and discrete cases individually looks exactly the same as doing calculations with vectors; if there are N distinct discrete commodities in the expression, the amounts of each will be written in front of each commodity. Additions work component-wise. Similarly for the continuous commodities.

The analogy with vector spaces suggests that sandwiching the structures DC and CC together in parallel, like the dimensions of vectors are sandwiched together, is an appropriate strategy. This means that continuous commodities will never add to discrete commodities and start mucking up the appropriate amounts which can be bought. The thing I'm aiming at is a closed mathematical structure that allows addition and multiplication in the right way. To be sure, multiplication by a scalar is more involved than with vector spaces because things like 0.5 coats make no sense. This means scalar multiplication also needs to be somehow partitioned to act on discrete and continuous commodities separately; or alternatively removed entirely as it cannot act on discrete and continuous commodities at the same time for non-integer scalars.

A tentative guess I have for this structure is to take (DC,+,*) and (CC,+,*) as generators for the overall structure of commodity amounts, and simply define that structure as the collection of formal sums of arbitrary elements in DC with CC, and to define addition as 'component-wise' addition in DC and CC respectively - and just leave overall scalar multiplication undefined. To be sure, this would allow the production of lines like:

0.5BM + 2CM+BM+CM= 1.5BM+3SM

and like calculations. Addition and multiplication of the whole thing by non-negative integers (the discrete amount structure) can be easily defined too since the addition in both is commutative; ie the semigroup action construction, 2SM = SM+SM from before, but now 2*(1.5BM)=1.5BM+1.5BM=3BM too. I suppose that will have to do.

fdrake September 24, 2018 at 08:12 #214715
If I call the set of commodities C whose components are generated by (DC,+,*) and (CC,+,*) then glued together through + (C,+), this facilitates setting up the elementary form of value on C. It works essentially the same as I discussed before but with a few minor alterations:

(1)batches of commodities can be compared to batches of commodities.
(2) if two expressions in (C,+) evaluate equally then they should be treated the same. This is to say that, say, 2SM+1BM=2*(SM+0.5BM) and so 2SM+1BM is worth 2*(SM+0.5BM) and vice versa.

This means, unfortunately, that an equivalence relation should be defined on (C,+) - so that sentences in (C,+) which evaluate equally are substitutable for each other. EG since 2SM + 1BM is the same as 2*(SM+0.5BM), if (2SM+1BM) T (1 coat), then ( 2*(SM+0.5BM) ) T (1 coat). This is so that T respects equality in (C,+). So, formally, T becomes defined on equivalence classes of (C,+) under the relation of equality of expressions. Just like I referenced before with the fractions - different ways of writing down the same thing should be treated the same. And also just like with the fractions, this mathematical detail can largely be forgotten since we know how to substitute anyway.
fdrake September 24, 2018 at 08:37 #214716
One last note before continuing on with the section on the relative form of value. As I showed before, the elementary form of value by itself can allow 1 coat to be exchanged for 2 coats; so any notion of ordering in terms of commodity amounts isn't compatible with this form of value, and if for some specific realisation of the elementary form it is consistent with such an ordering, it is so by logical coincidence. But there is a real incentive for a social organisation to constrain the value form more; so that trades of equivalent worth don't allow the alteration of value (instantaneously).
Streetlight September 24, 2018 at 12:30 #214746
Quoting fdrake
Marx seeks to ask a deeper set of questions; what is it about an economy that allows everything to have a price? What is it about an economy that is facilitated by money? How does money obtain its value?


I've only made it to the end of the 3rd page in the thread so far, but this is a really nice way of putting it. What immediately stood out for me is that this question is essentially a transcendental one: about the conditions of possibility of price(ing). There's a Kantianism here that's not often acknowledged.

fdrake September 24, 2018 at 14:08 #214753
Reply to StreetlightX

I'm stealing vocabulary from as many places as I need to try and convey the ideas. So yeah, I borrowed conditions of the possibility for that bit. The really interesting thing about that space of questions, methodologically at least, is that the condition for the possibility isn't 'condition for the possibility of conception' alone, it's also 'condition for the possibility of working as is'. I view these kind of questions as providing something like synthetic a-priori knowledge of social structures, but Marx always ends up reading the a-priori structure back into the phenomena to... I don't know, something like 'see things in their motion'. Like collapsing the most developed value form into the money commodity so he can look at circulation of commodities.

There's a real metaphysical thoroughness in his ideas, and a lot of... alchemy of ontological strata.
fdrake September 24, 2018 at 15:12 #214764
Reply to StreetlightX

Mixing metaphors, I think Marx is really sensitive to how the material processes carry along/are driven by the abstractions. To me it feels like the kind of thing Heidegger should've done more, looking at how a body Daseins. Re-inscribing the transcendental in the material, or something like that.
fdrake September 26, 2018 at 09:59 #215388
After a few days of trial and error and searching I found a paper that deals with remaining part of the algebraic structure of commodities above - specifically defining a sense of subtraction. So things like (1.5SM + 0.5BM)-(1.3SM + 0.1BM)=0.2SM + 0.4BM make sense.

One of the reasons this was difficult is because if you allow subtraction in usual sense of additive inverse, you 'zero out' the whole structure. Ideally what's needed is some way of allowing calculations like the above, but dealing with things like (1.5 SM) - (1.6 SM) = ? in a manner which keeps the structure closed. If you have 0-x=0 for all x, then add x to both sides, then x=0... So the whole thing is zero.

Another reason this doesn't work in the naive way is: say we have x lots of SM, and want to subtract off (x+1) lots of SM - x and x+1 are both positive amounts of stuff so they are valid elements of the structure.

This gives (x) - (x-1)=0, but by associativity and -ve*-ve=+ve, x-(x-1) = (x-x)+1=1, so 1=0. This is a contradiction.

The right strategy for defining it is to define subtraction (-) as (in principle) an independent operation of addition, then model the links between them in the structure (C,+,*,-) afterwards.
fdrake September 26, 2018 at 15:47 #215476
So I (think I) ironed out the difficulties with subtraction and a primitive ordering on C. The following axioms describe the structure, consider first for a single commodity - say [math]C_i[/math], with amount structure [math]D_i[/math].

Additive component, operation denoted +:
[math]
\text{A1: } x+y=y+x\\\text{A2: }x+(y+z)=(x+y)+z\\\text{A3: } \exists 0\in D: \forall x: x+0=0+x=x
[/math]
Multiplicative component, operation denoted .:
[math](M1): x.y=y.x\\(M2): x.(y.z)=(x.y).z\\(M3) \text{There is } 1\in D: \forall x: 1.x=x.1=x
[/math]
Subtractive component, operation denoted -;
[math](S1):(x-y)-z=(x-z)-y\\(S2):\exists 0\in D: \forall x; x-x=0\\(S3):x-0=x\\(S4): 0-x=0
[/math]
Additive's interaction with multiplicative:
[math]
(AM1):a.(x+y)=a.x+a.y
[/math]
Additive's interaction with subtractive:
[math]
(AS1):x+(y-z)=(x+y)-z\\(AS2):x-(y+z)=(x-y)-z
[/math]

It can be seen that the subtractive 0 interacts with multiplication in the following way:
0.a=(a-a).a=a.a-a.a=0
and the additive 0 and the subtractive 0 are equal, 0S is subtractive 0:
x+0S=x+(x-x)=(x-x)+x=0S+x
since 0S satisfies (A3) 0S is also the additive 0.

I'll call this total structure [math](D_i,+,-,.)[/math] the algebraic structure of [math]C_i[/math]. This iterates over all discrete commodities in C. Grouping together all commodities with a discrete amount structure D, the algebraic structures are then all [math](D,+,-,.)[/math]. This facilitates the definition of a module like structure of C over D which satisfies the following axioms, for r,s,t in C and a,b,c,x,y in D:

[math]
(N1): r+(s+t)=(r+s)+t\\(N2): a.(r+s)=ar+as=as+ar=(s+r).a=\\(N3): ar+(bs+ct)=(ar+bs)+ct\\(N4): ar+br=(a+b)r=(b+a)r=br+ar\\(N5): (ar+bs)-(xr+ys)=(a-x)r+(b-y)s
[/math]

this list is probably incomplete, but it shows how all the operations interact. Regardless, all it is saying is that (combinations of) operations on commodities, like 2*(1BM+0.5SM)-(1BM+0.5SM), are to be resolved in terms of the pre-established algebra (A1->AS2) on the components, like (2-1)BM+(1-0.5)SM, irrelevant of how many components there are. And also that it doesn't matter what order components (like SM and BM) are written down. Note however that multiplication of commodities is not defined.

All the commodities with the discrete amount structure have the same behaviour of coefficients. All the commodities with the continuous amount structure have the same behaviour of coefficients. Formally, the procedure above should be done again for the continuous amount structure, but it's essentially the same. The only thing which changes is that the multiplicative part without 0 has inverses.

The final construction, being able to deal with lists of commodities with different amount structures, is obtained by gluing the aggregated discrete one above to the one with minor modifications for continuous commodities. Conceptually it looks like this:

User image

it's just a vector space with different algebras on each component (no longer coefficients from a field).

The last thing to note here is that the subtraction operator allows an order to be defined on the structure of commodities. We can say that 1 list of commodities is greater than another when the second is equal to the first minus some amount of each commodity. So A>=B <=> B-A=0. It inherits this order from each algebraic structure [math]D_i[/math] and holds when the inequality holds for all coefficients. So this lets us say things like (1BM+0.5SM)>(1BM+0.25SM). Note, however, that this 'order on the amount of stuff' does not necessarily respect the elementary form of value insofar as 'strictly more goods' can be traded for 'strictly less' and vice versa (go from 2z->z instead here through the trade network).


fdrake September 27, 2018 at 19:49 #215779
So to go back to the question which spurred all the algebra:

Does this hold:
If
(1) 1 coat is worth 1 pair of trousers
(2) 1 yard of linen is worth 1 suit jacket
then
(3) 1 coat + 1 yard of linen is worth 1 pair of trousers + 1 suit jacket

and what happens if it does hold?

When it holds, and always holds, you end up with the following implication on T:

Addition:
If:
(A) xTy and aTb
then
(B) (x+a)T(y+b)

If you augment this with the multiplication and subtraction structures you also get:

Multiplication:
If
(C) xTy
then
(D) (a)xT(a)y (where a is an element consistent with the amount structure of x and y)

(1 coat is worth 1 pair of trousers <=> 2 coats are worth 2 pairs of trousers)

Subtraction:
If
(E) xTy
then
(F) (x-a)T(y-a)

this lets the algebraic structure above interact with the relation in a sensible way. It also will lead to a characterisation result later when we bring in the mapping to values (probably). Observe that the thing which violated the intuition of preserving value through trade above was that we could trade 1 yard of linen for 2 yards of linen above. If we could obtain 1 yard of linen and 1 coat for 1 yard of linen, this would be precisely the same violation conceptually and differ only in the accounting. So we have that:

"T preserves numerical equality of value"
iff
For no commodities a,b aT(a+b).
iff
0Tb (subtract a from both sides and use the commutativity of addition to rearrange the right side to b+a, then (b+a)-a=b+(a-a)=b+0=b.

which is quite nice - the elementary form 'preserves the numerical equality of value' if and only if 'you can't trade something for nothing'. To me that's quite convincing that I'm on the right track.

edit: Preserving the numerical equality of value can also be stated in terms of the ordering on C through subtraction. "T preserves the numerical equality of value" iff "for no a,b such that b>a aTb", and this is equivalent to the above equivalences. This is because b>=a iff a-b=0 (remember the subtraction axiom S4).
fdrake September 30, 2018 at 14:49 #216741
Moving onto the next section:

Subsection 2: The relative form of value.
Subsubsection (a): (a.) The nature and import of this form

The overall thrust of this section is to provide a deeper description of the relative form of value referenced in the previous section. Marx deals with how definite quantities of use values can be considered equal in value, then considers various quantitative operations on the relative value of commodities and how they work in the relative form of value.

In order to discover how the elementary expression of the value of a commodity lies hidden in the value relation of two commodities, we must, in the first place, consider the latter entirely apart from its quantitative aspect. The usual mode of procedure is generally the reverse, and in the value relation nothing is seen but the proportion between definite quantities of two different sorts of commodities that are considered equal to each other. It is apt to be forgotten that the magnitudes of different things can be compared quantitatively, only when those magnitudes are expressed in terms of the same unit. It is only as expressions of such a unit that they are of the same denomination, and therefore commensurable.


Marx begins; if we were to consider that 1 coat is worth 1 pair of trousers, what is it that allows the equation of the two commodities? Marx spurns the idea that the number of coats and the number of trousers suffices for an explanation of their equivalence in value because these numbers are dimensionless. The equation 1 = 1 in terms of 'coat units' and 'trouser units' tells us nothing about what about 1 coat and what about 1 pair of trousers renders them of equivalent worth. The comparison of raw quantities of coats and trousers requires a common unit under which the two are indeed comparable before can can be deemed equivalent.

A common example of this is the claim that "1+1=2". This is usually (and rightly) understood as the natural number 1 plus the natural number 1 is numerically equal to the natural number 2. However "1+1=2" can be false depending on the context. If these numbers corresponded to measurements on the decibel scale, 1dB+1dB=4dB, so "1+1=4" in this context. Thus, the context of the numbers must be understood in order to do these calculations. If our context is that of the dimensionless naturals, 1+1=2, if our context is that of the decibel scale, 1+1=4. The commensurability of numbers depends on their scale (or their joint absence of a scale).

The common unit under which 1 coat and 1 trousers can be seen as equivalent is that of either time or the monetary expression of time; socially necessary labour time or direct price. Note that if we already contextualise 1 coat = 1 pair of trousers in terms of real price, we can say that 1 coat 'is the same price as' 1 pair of trousers, but this does not provide an account of why they are commensurable in terms of prices in the first place. Marx summarises it like this:

Whether 20 yards of linen = 1 coat or = 20 coats or = x coats – that is, whether a given quantity of linen is worth few or many coats, every such statement implies that the linen and coats, as magnitudes of value, are expressions of the same unit, things of the same kind. Linen = coat is the basis of the equation.


and proceeds to give a clever example of the contextual basis of equality of quantities:

But the two commodities whose identity of quality is thus assumed, do not play the same part. It is only the value of the linen that is expressed. And how? By its reference to the coat as its equivalent, as something that can be exchanged for it. In this relation the coat is the mode of existence of value, is value embodied, for only as such is it the same as the linen. On the other hand, the linen’s own value comes to the front, receives independent expression, for it is only as being value that it is comparable with the coat as a thing of equal value, or exchangeable with the coat. To borrow an illustration from chemistry, butyric acid is a different substance from propyl formate. Yet both are made up of the same chemical substances, carbon (C), hydrogen (H), and oxygen (O), and that, too, in like proportions – namely, C4H8O2. If now we equate butyric acid to propyl formate, then, in the first place, propyl formate would be, in this relation, merely a form of existence of C4H8O2; and in the second place, we should be stating that butyric acid also consists of C4H8O2. Therefore, by thus equating the two substances, expression would be given to their chemical composition, while their different physical forms would be neglected.


To clear this up, if 'x is worth y', then x is playing the part of the relative form, and y is playing the part of the equivalent form. This means 'x is worth y' is a statement which expresses the value of x in terms of y. So when Marx says:

But the two commodities whose identity of quality is thus assumed, do not play the same part. It is only the value of the linen that is expressed. And how? By its reference to the coat as its equivalent, as something that can be exchanged for it. In this relation the coat is the mode of existence of value, is value embodied, for only as such is it the same as the linen. On the other hand, the linen’s own value comes to the front, receives independent expression, for it is only as being value that it is comparable with the coat as a thing of equal value, or exchangeable with the coat.


"It is only the value of linen that is expressed", he is restating that linen in the equation of x linen = y coats is in its relative form. There is a little subtlety in the account here; Marx is putting in a lot of effort to exhibit an asymmetry between the relative and equivalent form, nevertheless x is worth y implies y is worth x, so what's the point of this pedantry?

Underlying the numerical equality of "x coats is worth y pairs of trousers" is a sortal determination of equality; the origin of 'commensurability' of coats and linen. "x coats' has to be able to count as "y pairs of trousers" in order for the equation "x coats = y pairs of trousers" to hold. This counts as is echoed by the requirement that x coats and y pair of trousers share a common unit in which the two are equivalent, and the 'counts as' must be able to be applied to 'x coats' and 'y pairs of trousers' individually as they are just examples of the 'is worth' relation which takes two things which can count as each other in determinate quantities of labour; as units with the same magnitude on the same scale. And just as before with the notion of shapes as equivalent under the equality of areas, whatever makes x coats worth y pairs of trousers must be a property of both coats and trousers which has a magnitude. Because the example was arbitrary, the sortal which renders coats equivalent to trousers; as commensurable quantities, as numerical values; has to exceed both items in its capacity for application.

Another feature of this sortal application is that it filters out properties which are not relevant for the sortal: in Marx's example, two substances have the same chemical formula but different molecular geometries; we can say they are equal in terms of chemical formula to the extent we ignore the properties irrelevant to the sortal of chemical formulae on compounds, atoms and molecules.



fdrake September 30, 2018 at 15:21 #216752
Marx continues, drawing out this connection between the ability for commodities to count as each other and as their equivalence under the sortal 'are congelations of human labour in the abstract. The paragraph is quite dense, so I'll spend some time charting it.

If we say that, as values, commodities are mere congelations of human labour, we reduce them by our analysis, it is true, to the abstraction, value; but we ascribe to this value no form apart from their bodily form. It is otherwise in the value relation of one commodity to another. Here, the one stands forth in its character of value by reason of its relation to the other.


Under the aspect of value, commodities are nothing but human labour embodied in goods. But this is an abstraction; an insubstantial relation between goods. Dissecting the goods will not reveal an atom of value, nevertheless the value persists in them to the extent they partake in the structure of value. Marx sees it as important to highlight that 'this value has no form apart from (the commodities) bodily form'. Value is immaterial, but it nevertheless partially constitutes every commodity. This harkens back to my first post detailing the nature of real abstractions. Commodities should be understood as real abstractions; dynamic, interlinking corpuscles which partake in multiple ontological registers.

In terms of the value relation, only the relative value of commodities is revealed - only the value form operates on commodities; under other aspects (such as the satisfaction of wants or needs), other aspects like specific use values emerge. It is prescient to note that this insistence on the non-bodily nature of value comes right after an example with a similar structure; of the equation of chemicals under the aspect of chemical formulae. The chemical formula is 'in' the chemicals in precisely the same sense that value is 'in' commodities. The analysis of the value form is the analysis of the logical structure of value in commodities, but also an analysis of how that form inheres in the material structure of commodities. Ultimately, this comes down to material structures counting as value alone under certain social processes; like purchase, exchange, investment and so on.

By making the coat the equivalent of the linen, we equate the labour embodied in the former to that in the latter. Now, it is true that the tailoring, which makes the coat, is concrete labour of a different sort from the weaving which makes the linen. But the act of equating it to the weaving, reduces the tailoring to that which is really equal in the two kinds of labour, to their common character of human labour. In this roundabout way, then, the fact is expressed, that weaving also, in so far as it weaves value, has nothing to distinguish it from tailoring, and, consequently, is abstract human labour. It is the expression of equivalence between different sorts of commodities that alone brings into relief the specific character of value-creating labour, and this it does by actually reducing the different varieties of labour embodied in the different kinds of commodities to their common quality of human labour in the abstract.


Marx restates himself, the equation of commodities with different production processes under the equality of value deforms human labour to value creating labour; that is, abstract (social) labour. All labours are the same in terms of value creation. This references the homogeneity of human labour in the abstract as previously discussed, and so is mostly old ground. The only new thing here is rephrasing 'human labour in the abstract' as 'value creating labour'.

But, there is another subtlety, Marx makes a claim about the reality of this value form in exchange.
It is the expression of equivalence between different sorts of commodities that alone brings into relief the specific character of value-creating labour, and this it does by actually reducing the different varieties of labour embodied in the different kinds of commodities to their common quality of human labour in the abstract.[


While it is possible in the realm of intellectual abstractions to reduce commodities to the general features of labour embodied in them, Marx claims that such a reduction isn't simply one performed by an intellectual in an armchair, he claims that the reduction of concrete labour to abstract labour really does occur as part of the process of valuation. Whenever we take two commodities as equivalent in value, the equivalence is not just a numerical equivalence, it is the social circumstances which render those commodities as commensurable and equivalent. Ultimately, this comes back to the nature of capital; of the production of commodities for exchange rather than use. The 'perspective' of capital sees commodities as opportunities for profit already, so this reduction to values alone has 'always-already' occurred. It's an a-priori structure of value which is reproduced socially through the production of items for their values rather than their use values. Society already sacrifices utility on the altar of profit.

schopenhauer1 September 30, 2018 at 17:39 #216791
Quoting fdrake
The 'perspective' of capital sees commodities as opportunities for profit already, so this reduction to values alone has 'always-already' occurred. It's an a-priori structure of value which is reproduced socially through the production of items for their values rather than their use values. Society already sacrifices utility on the altar of profit.


So Marx' solution is to have the state own property so that values return to use value rather than profit value?

I am not inherently against or for an economic system, as I fear all work is bad in the first place- whether for an abstract "state" or for a company. But I do find it prima facie kinda scary that in a capitalist system, workers must reenact a sort of medieval structure whereby they must find a lord to dispense a wage/salary and work their "land" (i.e. perform labor for them). Employers have tremendous power over the peasants' lives. Interestingly, there was a podcast episode with Elisabeth Anderson on The Partially Examined Life who claims that owners represent a private government and essentially should have the same restrictions as governments.

The bigger question of how work should be distributed and organized will probably never really be solved being that the demand forces the supply, and thus work. Marx already makes the fatal flaw that "some" form of work is good- that being "unalienated work", which I do not subscribe to. No work is necessarily good in and of itself, it is simply necessary to survive. Exploitation of worker value is no good, but it's not like the work itself, unhindered from this is some sort of salvation from the problem of work itself. It is still work after all.
fdrake September 30, 2018 at 18:18 #216810
Quoting schopenhauer1
So Marx' solution is to have the state own property so that values return to use value rather than profit value?


I don't think Marx had a solution, or viewed any one social movement or intervention as sufficient for the removal of capitalism. He took a very pragmatic approach in his letters and support of political movements of his time. Regardless, you can see a few things which make social tensions appear in his analysis of capital.

The only ones we've covered so far are the distinctions between value and price, and the distinction between use and exchange values. Values coming untethered from prices makes room for all kind of pathologies (most of which we haven't met yet in the book). The distinction between use and exchange value means that production typically isn't for the social good or the good of the commons; or even to provide a commons; it's to make more money. When capital goes out of its way to satisfy a common need purely to satisfy it it's either an affectation like charity or a concession to an organised group.

Marx's works on labour and species-being are complementary to this. We'll see alienation later if I get to it. :)

fdrake September 30, 2018 at 18:32 #216816
I don't mean to downplay the power of volunteer and not-for-profit work to make commons, just to say they remain relatively disempowered despite their universal appeal due to being... not-for-profit organisations.
schopenhauer1 September 30, 2018 at 20:45 #216847
Quoting fdrake
I don't think Marx had a solution, or viewed any one social movement or intervention as sufficient for the removal of capitalism.


So what do you think was his goal in his works? What does a better society for Marx look like? Also, this doesn't get rid of the actual problem which is that work itself might not be a good, but rather something we must deal with to survive. Our demands will always force there to be more supplies, and people are enslaved to their own needs and wants.
fdrake September 30, 2018 at 20:51 #216849
Quoting schopenhauer1
So what do you think was his goal in his works? What does a better society for Marx look like?


He is notoriously silent on the matter. Perhaps he thought that the people who bring about communism should decide what it looks like. Clearly he approved of measures which make socialism and communism more likely, and clearly wanted production to be tailored for need, desire and communal access rather than profit and privation. He also definitely wanted workers to harness the increased productivity from automation to direct it for the benefit of all.

schopenhauer1 September 30, 2018 at 20:53 #216850
Quoting fdrake
and clearly wanted production to be tailored for need, desire and communal access rather than profit and privation


And what of the tropes that market economies bring about more efficient avenues for increased productivity?
fdrake September 30, 2018 at 20:59 #216854
Reply to schopenhauer1

Ask the giant face frying hole in the sky or the Cheetos packets in the Marianna trench, or the deforested areas expanding the floodplains, people who can't afford a cup from the Starbucks on their factory dormitory's street while working 14 hours a day, militias being bribed to kill Coca Cola unionisers, more empty homes than homeless, enough wealth to end world poverty overnight if redistributed... Ask all of those problems what they think about the efficiency of the market in satisfying the needs of humanity.
schopenhauer1 September 30, 2018 at 21:13 #216856
Reply to fdrake
Granted, yet states with command economies run far short as well- think Eastern Europe by the 1980s. The problem is focus on productivity doesn't necessarily resolve a lot of human-based needs like wanting decision-making power, ownership of one's own labor, not being at the whim of what boss will be the kindest. Work days that are flexible, etc. etc. But again, the problem is work itself. Marx probably saw it as an end in itself if in what he considered its "unalienated form". I do not see it as an end in itself. It is a burden that we put on each other based on our needs and wants. It bothers me someone would need to be "born" so they can "experience" the "intrinsic goodness" of work, whether "unalienated" or not. The problem is our very needs that we have in the first place. It is a metaphysical problem that is not answered via economic system changes.
fdrake September 30, 2018 at 21:16 #216857
Reply to schopenhauer1

Life might not be worth living, but it could still be better.
schopenhauer1 September 30, 2018 at 21:16 #216858
Also don't forget, more productivity and markets brings more variety. People generally forgo a lot of stuff for just the right pair of such and such.
fdrake October 02, 2018 at 16:43 #217449
Marx continues linking value to labour:

There is, however, something else required beyond the expression of the specific character of the labour of which the value of the linen consists. Human labour power in motion, or human labour, creates value, but is not itself value. It becomes value only in its congealed state, when embodied in the form of some object. In order to express the value of the linen as a congelation of human labour, that value must be expressed as having objective existence, as being a something materially different from the linen itself, and yet a something common to the linen and all other commodities. The problem is already solved.


Mostly repeating things I've already written about. He does however draw attention to a distinction: labour is not value, labour creates value. Labour becomes value only when a commodity is worked on and enters, even figuratively, into an exchange relation with other commodities. The 'congealed state' of labour in the commodity is aligned with its value; and the (socially necessary) duration of that labour imbues that commodity's with value of a given magnitude.

When occupying the position of equivalent in the equation of value, the coat ranks qualitatively as the equal of the linen, as something of the same kind, because it is value. In this position it is a thing in which we see nothing but value, or whose palpable bodily form represents value. Yet the coat itself, the body of the commodity, coat, is a mere use value. A coat as such no more tells us it is value, than does the first piece of linen we take hold of. This shows that when placed in value-relation to the linen, the coat signifies more than when out of that relation, just as many a man strutting about in a gorgeous uniform counts for more than when in mufti.


Again, restating that when a commodity takes a position in the elementary form of value; as either in the relative or equivalent form; only its value is highlighted - all properties irrelevant to this are filtered out.

In the production of the coat, human labour power, in the shape of tailoring, must have been actually expended. Human labour is therefore accumulated in it. In this aspect the coat is a depository of value, but though worn to a thread, it does not let this fact show through. And as equivalent of the linen in the value equation, it exists under this aspect alone, counts therefore as embodied value, as a body that is value. A, for instance, cannot be “your majesty” to B, unless at the same time majesty in B’s eyes assumes the bodily form of A, and, what is more, with every new father of the people, changes its features, hair, and many other things besides.


As before, the physical body of the commodity is subject to a sortal; it counts as its value alone and everything else is filtered out.

Hence, in the value equation, in which the coat is the equivalent of the linen, the coat officiates as the form of value. The value of the commodity linen is expressed by the bodily form of the commodity coat, the value of one by the use value of the other. As a use value, the linen is something palpably different from the coat; as value, it is the same as the coat, and now has the appearance of a coat. Thus the linen acquires a value form different from its physical form. The fact that it is value, is made manifest by its equality with the coat, just as the sheep’s nature of a Christian is shown in his resemblance to the Lamb of God.


If 1 pair of trousers is worth 1 coat, 'coat' serves as the representation of value for the trousers, with a magnitude '1' and ratio to 'pair of trousers' as 1:1. The bodily form of the coat counts as the value of the pair of trousers, thus the trousers become a representation of the value embodied in the coat. More generally, 'x use value 1 is worth y use value 2' has the same structure. Note that only use values can serve as repositories of value.

Marx summarises:

We see, then, all that our analysis of the value of commodities has already told us, is told us by the linen itself, so soon as it comes into communication with another commodity, the coat. Only it betrays its thoughts in that language with which alone it is familiar, the language of commodities. In order to tell us that its own value is created by labour in its abstract character of human labour, it says that the coat, in so far as it is worth as much as the linen, and therefore is value, consists of the same labour as the linen. In order to inform us that its sublime reality as value is not the same as its buckram body, it says that value has the appearance of a coat, and consequently that so far as the linen is value, it and the coat are as like as two peas. We may here remark, that the language of commodities has, besides Hebrew, many other more or less correct dialects. The German “Wertsein,” to be worth, for instance, expresses in a less striking manner than the Romance verbs “valere,” “valer,” “valoir,” that the equating of commodity B to commodity A, is commodity A’s own mode of expressing its value. Paris vaut bien une messe. [Paris is certainly worth a mass]


and concludes the subsection:

By means, therefore, of the value-relation expressed in our equation, the bodily form of commodity B becomes the value form of commodity A, or the body of commodity B acts as a mirror to the value of commodity A.[19] By putting itself in relation with commodity B, as value in propriâ personâ, as the matter of which human labour is made up, the commodity A converts the value in use, B, into the substance in which to express its, A’s, own value. The value of A, thus expressed in the use value of B, has taken the form of relative value.

fdrake October 02, 2018 at 16:46 #217450
Subsection summary: the relative form of value, nature and import of this form.

If x use value 1 is worth y use value 2, x use value 1 stands in the relative form of value to y use value 2 which is the equivalent. use value 2, when envisioned or actually put into this relation, becomes the value form of use value 1; the means of the representation of the value in 1. Prior to this, the two are rendered equivalent in their reduction to human labour in the abstract - as socially useful products of labour power -, and the (ratio of) socially necessary durations of the labour gives the magnitudes x and y.
fdrake October 02, 2018 at 17:54 #217466
Subsubsection B: Quantitative determination of Relative value

This section largely consists of Marx specifying the algebraic structure that holds of the relative form.

Marx first summarises points he has made before:

Every commodity, whose value it is intended to express, is a useful object of given quantity, as 15 bushels of corn, or 100 lbs of coffee. And a given quantity of any commodity contains a definite quantity of human labour. The value form must therefore not only express value generally, but also value in definite quantity. Therefore, in the value relation of commodity A to commodity B, of the linen to the coat, not only is the latter, as value in general, made the equal in quality of the linen, but a definite quantity of coat (1 coat) is made the equivalent of a definite quantity (20 yards) of linen.


(1) Value only applies to use values.
(2)(a) The value form is partly what renders use values as commensurable products of human labour.
(b) The value form also gives use values their definite magnitudes of value.

The equation, 20 yards of linen = 1 coat, or 20 yards of linen are worth one coat, implies that the same quantity of value substance (congealed labour) is embodied in both; that the two commodities have each cost the same amount of labour of the same quantity of labour time. But the labour time necessary for the production of 20 yards of linen or 1 coat varies with every change in the productiveness of weaving or tailoring. We have now to consider the influence of such changes on the quantitative aspect of the relative expression of value.


It's pretty clear to see that, say, 1 pair of trousers has less value than 2 pairs of trousers, so Marx expands on the various operations that respect the 'is worth' relation T and the relationship between socially necessary labour time and value.

I. Let the value of the linen vary,[20] that of the coat remaining constant. If, say in consequence of the exhaustion of flax-growing soil, the labour time necessary for the production of the linen be doubled, the value of the linen will also be doubled. Instead of the equation, 20 yards of linen = 1 coat, we should have 20 yards of linen = 2 coats, since 1 coat would now contain only half the labour time embodied in 20 yards of linen. If, on the other hand, in consequence, say, of improved looms, this labour time be reduced by one-half, the value of the linen would fall by one-half. Consequently, we should have 20 yards of linen = ½ coat. The relative value of commodity A, i.e., its value expressed in commodity B, rises and falls directly as the value of A, the value of B being supposed constant


Summarising: value is proportional to socially necessary labour time. Assuming that the labour time for y does not change, this means that if the labour time for x increases, and we have xTy, the amount of y which x is worth increases. Inversely if the labour time for x decreases, the the amount of y which is worth x decreases.

Assume 'a x is worth b y', that x stands in the relative form to y which is its equivalent. Then: let V represent a commodity's value. If V(x) = V(y), then V(x) halves, we have 2V(x)=V(y). Inversely if V(x) doubles, we have V(x)=2V(y). As a consequence of the first, we have 2a x is worth b y. As a consequence of the second, we have a x is worth 2b y.

II. Let the value of the linen remain constant, while the value of the coat varies. If, under these circumstances, in consequence, for instance, of a poor crop of wool, the labour time necessary for the production of a coat becomes doubled, we have instead of 20 yards of linen = 1 coat, 20 yards of linen = ½ coat. If, on the other hand, the value of the coat sinks by one-half, then 20 yards of linen = 2 coats. Hence, if the value of commodity A remain constant, its relative value expressed in commodity B rises and falls inversely as the value of B.


This paragraph applies the same reasoning to the equivalent. Here we have V(x)=V(y) if V(y) halves, then V(x)=2V(y), if V(y) doubles, we have 2V(x)=V(y).

Marx notes that this comes down the the symmetry of T, that relative and equivalent forms depend solely on 'accidental position' in T:

If we compare the different cases in I and II, we see that the same change of magnitude in relative value may arise from totally opposite causes. Thus, the equation, 20 yards of linen = 1 coat, becomes 20 yards of linen = 2 coats, either, because the value of the linen has doubled, or because the value of the coat has fallen by one-half; and it becomes 20 yards of linen = ½ coat, either, because the value of the linen has fallen by one-half, or because the value of the coat has doubled.


then continues:

III. Let the quantities of labour time respectively necessary for the production of the linen and the coat vary simultaneously in the same direction and in the same proportion. In this case 20 yards of linen continue equal to 1 coat, however much their values may have altered. Their change of value is seen as soon as they are compared with a third commodity, whose value has remained constant. If the values of all commodities rose or fell simultaneously, and in the same proportion, their relative values would remain unaltered. Their real change of value would appear from the diminished or increased quantity of commodities produced in a given time.


If V(x)=V(y) and V(x) and V(y) are both doubled, then V(x)=V(y) still, only the relative values of x and y to other commodities change.

IV. The labour time respectively necessary for the production of the linen and the coat, and therefore the value of these commodities may simultaneously vary in the same direction, but at unequal rates or in opposite directions, or in other ways. The effect of all these possible different variations, on the relative value of a commodity, may be deduced from the results of I, II, and III.


IE, if V(x)=V(y) and V(x) is scaled by a/b, aV(x)=bV(y).

Focussing in on point III, Marx adds:

Thus real changes in the magnitude of value are neither unequivocally nor exhaustively reflected in their relative expression, that is, in the equation expressing the magnitude of relative value. The relative value of a commodity may vary, although its value remains constant. Its relative value may remain constant, although its value varies; and finally, simultaneous variations in the magnitude of value and in that of its relative expression by no means necessarily correspond in amount.[21]


(1) The relative value of x to y doesn't completely characterise the value of x.
(2) Changes in the relative value of x to y don't completely characterise changes in value more generally.
(3) x can remain worth y even under incredibly chaotic conditions of exchange.

The incompletion of this value form, and its reference to the values of other commodities not in 'x is worth y' prefigure later stages of the account; the expanded/total and money forms of value.

Summarising the properties of V we will have that:

(A) V(x+y)=V(x)+V(y)
(B) V(Ax)=AV(x)
(C) V(x-y)=V(x)-V(y)

incidentally from (3) we have that V(0)=V(x-x)=V(x)-V(x)=0. Nothing is worth nothing. Note that these correspond neatly to the algebra of commodities I set up already:

Where x,y,a,b are commodities in the sense I developed here, and A is a number which respects the amount structure of x and y.

(1) V(x+y)=V(x)+V(y) <=> [xTy & aTb => (x+a)T(y+b)]
(2) V(Ax)=AV(x) <=> [xTy <=> (Ax)T(Ax)]
(3) V(x-y)=V(x)-V(y) <=> [xTy <=> (x-a)T(y-a)]
(4) [V(x)=V(y) <=> V(y)=V(x) ]<=> T is symmetric.
(5) V(x)=V(x) <=> T is reflexive.

V(x) should be seen as taking values in [math]\mathbb{R}^{+}[/math] with the continuous amount structure. That is:

[math]V:[C,+,-,.]\rightarrow [\mathbb{R}^{+},+,-,.][/math]

and properties A,B,C establish that it's a homomorphism. Note that it is a surjective homomorphism because V(x) and V(y) can be the same without x=y. This is just to say that different amounts of different commodities can still be worth the same.

Also, this isn't yet an ordered field because there are no negative values - developing those will come later when dealing with debt and money of account.








fdrake October 02, 2018 at 18:35 #217477
Another thing to note is that the elementary form of value alone doesn't necessarily obey the following constraint:

V(x)=V(y) <=> xTy
With this assumption (and A->C) (1)->(5) can be derived.

(1) Assume xTy, then iff V(x) = V(y) and V(a)=V(b), iff V(x)+V(a)=V(y)+V(b), iff V(x+a)=V(y+b) iff (x+a)T(y+b)
(2) Assume xTy, then(Ax)T(Ay), then V(Ax)=V(Ay) so AV(x)=AV(y). Similarly AxTAy iff V(Ax)=V(Ay)=>V(x)=V(y)=>xTy
(3) Assume xTy, then (x-a)T(y-b) with aTb, then V(a)=V(b) and V(x-a)=V(y-b) then V(x)-V(a)=V(y)-V(b) so V(x)=V(y), reverse implications.
(4) xTy <=> V(x)=V(y) <=> yTx <=> V(y)=V(x)
(5) xTx <=> V(x)=V(x)
frank October 02, 2018 at 19:08 #217481
Reply to fdrake Numbers and math have roots in trade, so describing it in the language of math creates an image if the child rising up to reduce the parent.

Weatherford describes markets in Mali where the merchants have no formal education and cant read, but theyre experts at negotiation and currency exchange. They use a settled sign language where spoken language is a barrier. Math as a common language.
fdrake October 02, 2018 at 19:17 #217484
Reply to frank

I have no idea what point you're making.
Moliere October 02, 2018 at 19:17 #217485
Reply to fdrake I'd also note that not-for-profit is something of a in-name-only -- I'd say that the general critique of capital applies just as well to non-profit orgs in that they produce a commodity and sell it at a higher price than the use-value which goes into making said commodity; the individuals in charge of non-profit orgs do not make as much as their counterparts, but the motive remains the same: increase revenue greater than expenditures.

This is just the totalising nature of capital.

Not that non-profit orgs don't do good just because of this. They often do (as do for-profit orgs, for that matter) -- I just mean to point out that they are still a part of the larger sociopolitical system of capital.
frank October 02, 2018 at 19:33 #217488
Quoting fdrake
I have no idea what point you're making.


Do people not make purposeless observations in your world? I'm imagining you in a museum pointing to a sculpture asking, "What's his point?"
fdrake October 02, 2018 at 19:39 #217490
Reply to frank

I usually operate under the assumption that responses to a thread try to be on topic. Thing is, I can't tell because you never spend enough words detailing what you think. And every other time I've asked you for more words or clearer writing you ran away.

Reply to Moliere

Think the observation is good. Some charities are in name only. I had in mind things like independent soup kitchens, urban foragers, food banks and volunteer teachers/counsellors.
Moliere October 02, 2018 at 19:42 #217491
Quoting fdrake
Think the observation is good. Some charities are in name only. I had in mind things like independent soup kitchens, urban foragers, food banks and volunteer teachers/counsellors.


I guess it depends on the specifics. . . but the general form of capital seems to perpetuate itself, at least in my experience. Though I'll admit I'm generalizing from my own experiences here, so maybe there are some counter-examples that I haven't run across.

I used to work for a union, and even there membership was seen as a revenue base. It's not like people who worked for the union didn't care about working class struggles or anything like that. In fact, the money was chased because it was required in order to make wins and service the membership of the union. Rather, even in spite of all the best intentions the general sociopolitical structure was such that that you had to care about things like a capitalist does.

It's in that sense that I mean -- so even if it's not in-name-only, ala a corrupt organization, but even a well-run organization -- the form of capital imposes itself on the org.
fdrake October 02, 2018 at 19:44 #217492
Reply to Moliere

I'll trust you on it. It makes sense that if an organisation wants to grow it needs to expand its revenue.
fdrake October 02, 2018 at 20:10 #217495
Reply to Moliere

It also makes sense that if an organisation wants to increase their power and influence funding is required. Moreover, greater spending power makes 'getting wins' easier.
frank October 02, 2018 at 20:36 #217499
Reply to fdrake What's the advantage of looking at Marx's outlook mathematically?
Moliere October 02, 2018 at 20:46 #217502
Reply to fdrake Yes, exactly. It makes perfect sense. I'm not trying to disparage the practice of what works -- only to highlight how totalising capital really is, and also highlight that though the model is of an English factory worker in the 1800's it is a pretty generally applicable model that applies to commodities as ephemeral as "wins"
fdrake October 02, 2018 at 20:50 #217503
Reply to frank

(1) He already does look at it mathematically. See recent post going through points I-III in the relative form, Marx is explicitly talking about how operations on labour time respect the 'is worth' relation. I'm mostly spelling things out explicitly that Marx already put in there. Another good example is his discussion over whether 'is worth' is reflexive ('x is worth x').

(2) It clarifies things, like why the elementary form of value doesn't have to preserve value magnitudes in trades, a puzzle Marx leaves for us. Also it shows how enforcing that trades preserve value magnitudes engenders a structural symmetry between values and commodities. These are just two examples.

(3) It's interesting to me.
frank October 02, 2018 at 21:40 #217510
Reply to fdrake So it's native to Marx, it clarifies, brings explicitness, and fills in blanks left by Marx (which would serve to fortify?)

Does it also facilitate prediction? I think that's one reason economics at large is mathemetized. Failures in mathematical models lead to revision.
fdrake October 02, 2018 at 21:50 #217511
Reply to frank

I don't think any of the maths I've done so far makes predictions as such, though there have been a few nice theoretical results. One is that a system of exchange maintains the magnitude of value through trades if and only if you can't trade nothing for something. Soon there'll be a very easy demonstration that having strictly more stuff means you have strictly more value.

So spelling things out with mathematical structures like this isn't so much making novel empirical predictions, it instead should be judged on how well it ties lots of things which are expected to be true together in a nice way. In terms of faithfulness to Marx's ideas, using them should agree with how Marx uses them wherever possible.

That attempt at remaining in good faith is one of the reasons I spent so long trying to understand how subtraction works for commodities; because we know that goods can be removed from an exchange, but also that values are greater than or equal to 0 (since they're proportional to time). So while you don't see an account of 'commodity subtraction' in the book, I've used it to produce things which are in agreement with Marx' account.
frank October 02, 2018 at 21:55 #217513
fdrake October 03, 2018 at 17:34 #217682
Marx moves onto discussing the equivalent form more deeply.

Subsection 3: 3. The Equivalent form of value

Marx begins by restating the duality between the relative and equivalent forms:

We have seen that commodity A (the linen), by expressing its value in the use value of a commodity differing in kind (the coat), at the same time impresses upon the latter a specific form of value, namely that of the equivalent.


and draws out some of the implications about the equivalent form from the previous section explicitly:

The commodity linen manifests its quality of having a value by the fact that the coat, without having assumed a value form different from its bodily form, is equated to the linen. The fact that the latter therefore has a value is expressed by saying that the coat is directly exchangeable with it. Therefore, when we say that a commodity is in the equivalent form, we express the fact that it is directly exchangeable with other commodities.


Bolded bit: this is saying that 'x use value 1 is worth y use value 2' has the feature that the relative value of x use value 1 is expressed as y use value 2: that the value, despite being strictly social, is an evaluation of x use value 1 in terms of the concrete amount y of use value 2. This only occurs because x use value 1 is exchangeable for y use value 2.

When one commodity, such as a coat, serves as the equivalent of another, such as linen, and coats consequently acquire the characteristic property of being directly exchangeable with linen, we are far from knowing in what proportion the two are exchangeable.


Marx restates that the exchangeability of x use value 1 with y use value 2 as a determination of numerically identical values only makes sense upon the assumption that use value 1 is exchangeable with use value 2; this is because the numerical equivalence between them has to arise from somewhere; that they are exchangeable does not say how much one exchanges for the other.

I think a decent analogy here is blowing up a balloon. The points on the surface of a balloon are always connected, and if we say that two points on its surface are connected they are commensurate, then every point on the balloon becomes commensurate with every other by mere fact that it is a smooth, unitary surface without holes. However, that the balloon's points are connected/commensurate with each other tells us nothing about the distance of pairs of points; blowing up the balloon allows the specific distance of paths on the balloon surface to change without changing the commensuration which ensures the existence of those paths. The balloon itself is the form of value, whose magnitudes are determined by an external process.


The value of the linen being given in magnitude, that proportion depends on the value of the coat. Whether the coat serves as the equivalent and the linen as relative value, or the linen as the equivalent and the coat as relative value, the magnitude of the coat’s value is determined, independently of its value form, by the labour time necessary for its production.


Bolded bit is important. It characterises the value form - that is, at the minute, the duality of relative and equivalent, as the real abstraction driving the commensuration of commodities in definite amounts, whose definite amounts are given through the ratio of socially necessary labour times.

The balloon analogy is actually mathematically quite literal if we consider the relation T from before. The commensuration of entities is equivalent to the ability to exchange one type for another type; the amounts are given by the application of socially necessary labour time ratios. So the existence of a path between two commodity types is their commensuration, the weighting of that path with an exchange ratio determined by the ratio of labour times is the application of a magnitude. (Ignore that the arrows are one way here, the relation is really symmetric)

User image

But whenever the coat assumes in the equation of value, the position of equivalent, its value acquires no quantitative expression; on the contrary, the commodity coat now figures only as a definite quantity of some article.


Marx gives us an example:

For instance, 40 yards of linen are worth – what? 2 coats. Because the commodity coat here plays the part of equivalent, because the use-value coat, as opposed to the linen, figures as an embodiment of value, therefore a definite number of coats suffices to express the definite quantity of value in the linen. Two coats may therefore express the quantity of value of 40 yards of linen, but they can never express the quantity of their own value. A superficial observation of this fact, namely, that in the equation of value, the equivalent figures exclusively as a simple quantity of some article, of some use value, has misled Bailey, as also many others, both before and after him, into seeing, in the expression of value, merely a quantitative relation. The truth being, that when a commodity acts as equivalent, no quantitative determination of its value is expressed.


To sum up, this characterises the relationship of relative and equivalent as:

(1) When a commodity assumes the relative form, and thus has an equivalent, the two must be exchangeable in order for one to be valued in terms of the other.
(2a) When we say 'x is worth y', this takes the value of x and represents it in terms of its exchange ratio with a definite amount of use value y.
(2b) 2a implies that y when serving as the equivalent has no expression of its value - IE, that the value form of dual relative and equivalents expresses solely the value of that commodity occupying the relative spot.
(2c) Nevertheless, the 'accidental position' of relative and equivalent can be reversed and we obtain a value expression for y in terms of x.
andrewk October 04, 2018 at 22:46 #217996
I have only read part of this, and even that has raised some interesting questions for me.

(1). Marx talks about divergence of price from value. Does that mean that he thinks the two are different? I find it hard to define value without using price. A topical and handy reference point is the definition of 'fair value' under the IFRS and GAAP accounting standards, which identifies fair value broadly as:

"the price that would be expected by a willing, but not overeager, buyer to a willing, but not overeager, seller to transfer an asset or liability, after taking all available information into account."

In finance there are ways of calculating value that make no direct reference to buyers and sellers - two examples of which are discounted cash flow and arbitrage pricing. This can have two purposes depending on context:

- for an item that the holder intends to hold to maturity (or until consumed or worn-out, in the case of a physical item), it is the value to that holder of the item. That value can, and does, vary significantly between holders. An oil rig has no value to me other than what I might be able to sell it for (which would not be much, since I don't have the right contacts) but would have great value to an oil company, as it will be a source of future profit.

- for an item that is likely to be sold, the calculation serves as an estimate of what sale price might be able to be achieved. For this to work it must be the case that most other market participants use the same general valuation approach as I do. This becomes particularly interesting in periods when major changes in valuation methods are being adopted, as has been the case in finance since the 2008-09 economic crisis. At such times big differences can arise in valuations made by different market participants.

(2). The part of it that is most interesting to me is the attempt to equate value of an item to the minimal hours of labour needed to produce it. This strikes me as laudable, if it can be made to work.

I wonder if it can cope with trading based on comparative advantage though. The classic example is islands A and B that need primary commodities C and D to survive. Island A can produce both C and D for fewer hours labour than B requires - because of geographic conditions, climate, tools, education of population, or other structural differences. But rather than A each making all its own stuff and A being much more prosperous than B, both islands benefit from B making the item for which A has the lower comparative advantage over B (say it's D), and then trading some of its D for C produced by A.

Since both islands benefit from the trade, I wonder how this can be accommodated into Marx's framework that regards value of an item as being somehow universal at each point in time.

A-ers will place a higher value on item D (measured in units of item C) than B-ers do. When A trades it acquires some D at a price (in units of C) that is lower than the value A places on it.

Conversely, from B's point of view, it sells some D at a price (in units of C) that is higher than the value B places on it.

I supposed we could say that each commodity has three values:

1. the value A puts on it, in terms of the other commodity, if no trade is occurring. This is based on the relative time costs for production in A
2. the value B puts on it, in terms of the other commodity, if no trade is occurring. This is based on the relative time costs for production in B
3. the exchange rate between the two commodities that is used in trade. This will be between the above two numbers, otherwise the trade will not occur because it will not be beneficial for one party.

It's made a bit tricky in that, while 1 and 2 may be stable, 3 can be any number between 1 and 2 and will depend on the relative skill of the two nations' trade negotiators. So while 1 and 2 seem more like the notion of an observer-independent value - unrelated to price, 3 is completely dependent on market negotiations.

I had some other thoughts, but this post is already too long.
fdrake October 05, 2018 at 07:46 #218081
Reply to andrewk

Responding to (2) first:

There are scenarios where the assumption that the value of a commodity equals the socially necessary labour time doesn't hold. I wrote about this by introducing the distinction between productive equilibrium and productive disequilibrium.

(1) Productive equilibrium is the state of a distribution of labour times for a commodity when its minimum equals its mode.
(2) Productive disequilibrium is the state of a distribution of labour times for a commodity where its mode is greater than its minimum.

Under these assumptions, the paired island economy is in a state of productive disequilibrium because each produces C and D with different socially necessary labour times. The distribution is also bimodal as there are two local maxima; corresponding to the labour time of A producing C and B producing C. The same holds for A producing D and B producing D.

I think this example is a bit of a toy problem and doesn't really reflect the conditions in the economy at large, but I think it's worthwhile seeing if analysing things in terms of their labour times producing a mutual advantage through exchange.

If we assume that we're analysing per day per person, we have 24 hours of labour time to spend on producing C and D. This means that there is a trade off in the productions of C and D for both islands, and both islands have a maximum amount of each they could produce. So we end up in the situation where a proportion of 24 hours is spent producing C and a proportion is spend producing D. This holds for both A and B, and both have different productivities for C and D. This gives the equations that govern the total daily production as:

Production on A = x1*p1 C + y1*(1-p1) D
Production on B = x2*p2 C + y2*(1-p2)D

where p1 is the fraction of hours spent on A producing C, x1 and y1 are the maximal per day productivities of C and D respectively on A. Analogously for B.

Assume wlog that x1>y1 and y2>x2 the sum of Production A and B is maximised in terms of the number of goods at:

x1C+y2D

under the assumption that the global maximum is the sum of the two local maxima.

So A is producing x1C and B is producing y2D. The spending strategies don't matter as both A and B are producing their maximal amount per unit time - assuming free trade both obtain more per day, as is classically concluded.

I would be extremely surprised if Marx wasn't aware of these ideas and I'm sure he thought of the two islands example when setting up his theory of value; as he frequently cites the originator of the example, Ricardo, and also believes that the division of labour increases overall productivity through specialisation (IIRC anyway, it's been a while since I read that bit).

I also don't really trust the example. Hand waving at 'free trade' doesn't work much for me, it could be the case that B simply wasn't productive enough to be of use to A, or that the exchange ratios are completely crazy.

Honing in on this - if we have it that x1:y2 is tiny, B might not be able to obtain enough of C or conversely for y2:x1 tiny A might not be able to obtain enough of D. The same could be said for any mechanism which fixes the exchange ratios, not necessarily just labour time. There have to be some regularity conditions on productivity and exchange for 'free trade' to be able to provide both islands with enough.

So if we assume that A produces m1+n1 of C, where m1 is the minimal amount of C which A needs, and that B produces m2+n2 of D, where m1 is the minimal amount of D which B needs, this leaves n1 to be traded for n2. We also have to assume, then, that n1 is enough of C for B and that n2 is enough of D for A. It could be that n1=0 and then both islands are screwed, and this is fully consistent with the scenario and 'maximal productivity' logic, even when, say, y1 is equal to x1.
Benkei October 05, 2018 at 14:16 #218114
Quoting andrewk
In finance there are ways of calculating value that make no direct reference to buyers and sellers - two examples of which are discounted cash flow and arbitrage pricing.


I don't agree with the discounted cash flow not having any reference to buyers and sellers. The discount curve you're going to use is an interest benchmark in most cases, which in turn is based on actual transaction/quote data (spot and forward). I'm on the fence about APT. Even arbitrage pricing ultimately has to take into account the effects the macro-economic factors have on cost, pricing and return and therefore what buyers and sellers can afford to do and not do.
andrewk October 05, 2018 at 22:11 #218155
Quoting Benkei
I don't agree with the discounted cash flow not having any reference to buyers and sellers. The discount curve you're going to use is an interest benchmark in most cases, which in turn is based on actual transaction/quote data (spot and forward).

You're right. I thought exactly that as I wrote it and then - arrogantly - thought 'nah, this is a philosophy forum, not a finance one - nobody will pick me up on it'. I was wrong!
Quoting Benkei
I'm on the fence about APT.
This is another case of me being lazy. I didn't mean APT (Arbitrage Pricing Theory) but arbitrage-free pricing of derivatives (Black-Scholes and the like), but I forgot the 'free' bit and found it easier to just write 'arbitrage pricing'. Arbitrage-free pricing of course still depends on market prices because it relates the value of a derivative to the value of the underlying asset, but what I had in mind was that the relationship between the prices of derivative and underlying asset doesn't depend on market sentiment. Of course it does, at least at second order, because interest rates and implied volatilities come into it, at which point your first objection comes into operation.

Perhaps a better way to characterise the distinction I think I was trying to make is as model-based prices versus observed prices. The latter assigns the value of item A on the most recent prices at which such items were seen to be sold. The former seeks to work out the benefit to the prospective holder of purchasing the asset, in terms of ultimate profit through holding to maturity (leaving aside early exercise for American options and the like) without making any assumptions about what the item could be re-sold for.
frank October 06, 2018 at 14:18 #218304
Just a stray note about value: value takes shape in a particular "cultural configuration." A single market can span diverse configurations, which means participants may have little comprehension of one another's uses.

Money makes this kind of cultural bridge possible.

"Cultural configuration" is anthropologist Ruth Benedict's terminology.
fdrake October 06, 2018 at 15:48 #218323
Reply to frank

You'd make some really good posts if you put more effort in explaining everything.
frank October 06, 2018 at 16:10 #218326
Reply to fdrake Sorry. I guess I'm not sure which part to explain because I dont know where our interests intersect.

What's fascinating me is the similarities between money and math. They're both about abstraction. In the same way "2" becomes divorced from any particular couple, currency is divorced from any particular way of assessing value. Money and math are transcultural languages in much the same way.

I'm curious to know if Marx realized this.
fdrake October 06, 2018 at 16:12 #218328
Reply to frank

Quoting frank
Sorry. I guess I'm not sure which part to explain because I dont know where our interests intersect.


You make interest in what interests you by explaining it well.
frank October 06, 2018 at 16:27 #218334
Reply to fdrake Ok. But you don't explain things very well.
fdrake October 06, 2018 at 16:31 #218336
Reply to frank

If there's anything I write that you don't understand feel free to ask questions.
frank October 06, 2018 at 16:33 #218339
frank October 06, 2018 at 18:54 #218357
Reply to fdrake I don't understand this: you seem to be following an analysis of a free market (obviously if the sort Marx was familiar with). Why are you thinking in terms of commodity exchanges?

IOW, this is not an analysis of a pre-money society. Correct?
fdrake October 06, 2018 at 19:13 #218365
Reply to frank

The analysis begins with the trade of one item for another. The items which are traded are called commodities. Commodities have a technical sense here, as they are items which have a component of 'use value' - the utility they serve, like wearing clothes or eating food - and 'exchange value' - the value they take in exchange.

In exchange, the value of one item, say 1 yard of linen, is equated to another item, 1 pair of trousers. If we write "1 yard of linen is worth 1 pair of trousers', Marx calls the first bit the 'relative form', here the 1 yard of linen, and the second bit the 'equivalent form', here 1 pair of trousers.

Towards the start of the thread; when I went through a very dense summary of my understanding of Marx's value theory; you'll have seen me talking about the expanded form of value and the money commodity.

The expanded form of value for, say, for the 1 yard of linen, is the set of all commodities which could be exchanged for 1 yard of linen as an exchange of equivalently valued goods.

The money commodity, Marx's example (and he stresses that it's just an example), is gold. Gold functions as the money commodity by serving as a universal equivalent. A universal equivalent is the commodity using which the values of all other commodities are expressed. So instead of say:

1 yard of linen is worth 1 pair of trousers
1 yard of linen is worth 2 coats
1 yard of linen is worth 900 eggs

we end up with

1 yard of linen is worth 0.5g of gold, say
and 1 pair of trousers is then worth 0.5g of gold
and 900 eggs is worth 0.5g of gold.
...
and so on for all commodities which have the same value as 0.5g of gold

The social function of currency is to serve as a representative of the set of commodities which have that value. Any fiat or digital currency functions as a universal equivalent because it maintains the social function of money, even though it is no longer redeemable as a specific commodity through an institution (like the Bank of England). A token representation of value (currency) functions in just the same way as a universal equivalent (but of course it will differ in laws surrounding it and how it may be manipulated).

When we end up with a privileged representation of a set of commodities of equivalent value, we have a money commodity. When that's abstracted to a fiat currency, it's the same mechanism with different legal and institutional backing/enforcement required.

The reason I haven't addressed money commodities or fiat currencies (or even the expanded form of value and the universal equivalent) with my more detailed exegesis is just because they come later in the chapter.
frank October 06, 2018 at 19:23 #218367
Quoting fdrake
1 yard of linen is worth 1 pair of trousers
1 yard of linen is worth 2 coats
1 yard of linen is worth 900 eggs

we end up with

1 yard of linen is worth 0.5g of gold, say
and 1 pair of trousers is then worth 0.5g of gold
and 900 eggs is worth 0.5g of gold.


This is not how a free market works, so what world is being analyzed? That was my question. In non-free markets, exchange is regulated by officials.

Are you saying that it will become clear down the line?
fdrake October 06, 2018 at 19:27 #218368
Reply to frank

The stakes in Marx's value theory are how do commodities obtain their values in a capitalist society. He's especially interested in how money gets its value - not just that it has a value, but also the magnitude of its value.

The book starts off analysing the conceptual structure of exchange - his value theory -, he relates it to work -the labour theory of value and of labour in capitalist production as value productive -, only after touching on labour as value-productive does he start analysing exchange networks (the next full chapter is on the circulation of commodities and the circulation of money).

Edit: It's also really really necessary to keep in mind that when Marx talks about value, he isn't talking just about price. Pricing mechanisms are a related but distinct topic of inquiry. EG, for Marx, things like unprocessed oil reserves or unworked land don't have a value even though they can be bought for money.
frank October 06, 2018 at 19:39 #218369
Reply to fdrake I think I'm ready now to present a short anthropological/archeological account of how money takes on value. If you're interested, I could present it after you've explained Marx's viewpoint and we could compare and contrast.
frank October 06, 2018 at 19:40 #218370
.
andrewk October 06, 2018 at 21:56 #218387
Reply to fdrake Thinking about this a bit more, they don't need to be separate economies to raise challenging questions. Say Lakshmi can produce wedding cakes or funeral cakes at the rate of ten per day, but the best anybody else can do is five per day, because Lakshmi possesses unique skills, and the demand is for ten wedding cakes and ten funeral cakes per day. Then how do we work out the labour-value of wedding and funeral cakes? It seems unrealistically optimistic to me to say to say they are both 0.1 day, since the demand cannot be met at that price. But it also seems unrealistically pessimistic to say the prices are 0.2 day, since the demand can be met at a lower price than that.

I wonder how Marx would address this. The labour-value of each seems to vary according to how much of her time Lakshmi spends on Wedding cakes.
fdrake October 07, 2018 at 01:16 #218418
Reply to andrewk

Thank you for your input. The questions are interesting, but I cannot do Marx while drunk. You will have to wait a bit.
fdrake October 07, 2018 at 01:17 #218419
Reply to frank

That sounds really interesting, Maybe you should make a new thread for it?
fdrake October 08, 2018 at 05:35 #218735
Reply to andrewk

I don't think this is too different for Marx from the two islands example. We're in a state of transition between two socially necessary labour times - when the minimum labour time is not equal to the modal one, so the comparative advantage Lakshmi has can be described by her unique ability for more productive labour of the same commodity. She can produce the same good quicker than the norm, so she produces more value per hour of her labour regardless of how long she spends doing it on any day. The 'normal' conditions of production set the value even in a period of transition to a new normal; so any averaging or other statistical operations that summarise the value are to be done over the productive processes, rather than the produced goods.

I'm also pretty sure that for Marx supply and demand influence the price of commodities but not necessarily their value. Supply can be linked to productivity a little; insofar as if it takes x amount of time to produce y of the good, the yearly rate of production, say, could be lower than the per day on-season rate due to seasonality or other constraints. So a 'scarce' commodity could be scarce because it has a very low rate of production. Supply and demand will (ideally) influence how much of a commodity is produced, but not the time required for the production of a single unit of that commodity. In this way, the accumulated value of all commodities in a productive network tracks the extent and efficiency of automation and the (an) average of the costs for an hour of labour closer than it tracks changes in demand or supply of any group of commodities made in that productive network.

There's little reference to supply and demand in the first chapter of the book, where Marx is detailing the fundamental parts of his theory of value. He deals with the relationship between valueless goods; like non-commodities which are that in virtue of no physical form, or unprocessed assets; and those with value much later in the work, specifically in volume 3 in terms of fictitious capital.
fdrake October 08, 2018 at 15:04 #218832
continuing developing the account of the equivalent form of value.

The first peculiarity that strikes us, in considering the form of the equivalent, is this: use value becomes the form of manifestation, the phenomenal form of its opposite, value.


This references that when 'x is worth y', the way the value of x is expressed is as a specific quantity of the use value y. This means, when entering into exchange, use values are the medium for the expression of value through the quantity of the use value.

The bodily form of the commodity becomes its value form. But, mark well, that this quid pro quo exists in the case of any commodity B, only when some other commodity A enters into a value relation with it, and then only within the limits of this relation.


this is to say that quantities of use values operate as the form of manifestation for value only when considering a commodity under the aspect of exchange; that is, only when considering them insofar as they are subjected to the value form.

Since no commodity can stand in the relation of equivalent to itself, and thus turn its own bodily shape into the expression of its own value, every commodity is compelled to choose some other commodity for its equivalent, and to accept the use value, that is to say, the bodily shape of that other commodity as the form of its own value.


This is a reiteration with a different emphasis. Saying 'x is worth x' says nothing about the value of x, x is always worth itself. So if we want to ascertain the value of x, it needs to be compared to an amount of a y. What determines the amount of y is the abstract labour embodied in the amount of x.

Nevertheless, I have argued elsewhere that so long as we are considering that a commodity has already been brought into the exchange relation with another commodity, we can assume its value has found an expression and treat 'x is worth x' as a harmless tautology rather than a breakdown of the relative and equivalent form.
fdrake October 08, 2018 at 17:49 #218860
Marx analogises value to weight:

One of the measures that we apply to commodities as material substances, as use values, will serve to illustrate this point. A sugar-loaf being a body, is heavy, and therefore has weight: but we can neither see nor touch this weight. We then take various pieces of iron, whose weight has been determined beforehand. The iron, as iron, is no more the form of manifestation of weight, than is the sugar-loaf. Nevertheless, in order to express the sugar-loaf as so much weight, we put it into a weight-relation with the iron. In this relation, the iron officiates as a body representing nothing but weight. A certain quantity of iron therefore serves as the measure of the weight of the sugar, and represents, in relation to the sugar-loaf, weight embodied, the form of manifestation of weight. This part is played by the iron only within this relation, into which the sugar or any other body, whose weight has to be determined, enters with the iron. Were they not both heavy, they could not enter into this relation, and the one could therefore not serve as the expression of the weight of the other. When we throw both into the scales, we see in reality, that as weight they are both the same, and that, therefore, when taken in proper proportions, they have the same weight. Just as the substance iron, as a measure of weight, represents in relation to the sugar-loaf weight alone, so, in our expression of value, the material object, coat, in relation to the linen, represents value alone.


which is similar in function to the earlier analogies of chemical formulae and area, and like area exhibits a property with magnitude. However, unlike weight, value is not imbued upon the commodity through its physical constitution alone:

Here, however, the analogy ceases. The iron, in the expression of the weight of the sugar-loaf, represents a natural property common to both bodies, namely their weight; but the coat, in the expression of value of the linen, represents a non-natural property of both, something purely social, namely, their value.


it is rather imbued upon the x and y in 'x is worth y' through the social relation of their labours; that is insofar as both x and y are embodiments of human labour in the abstract.

Since the relative form of value of a commodity – the linen, for example – expresses the value of that commodity, as being something wholly different from its substance and properties, as being, for instance, coat-like, we see that this expression itself indicates that some social relation lies at the bottom of it. With the equivalent form it is just the contrary. The very essence of this form is that the material commodity itself – the coat – just as it is, expresses value, and is endowed with the form of value by Nature itself. Of course this holds good only so long as the value relation exists, in which the coat stands in the position of equivalent to the linen.[22]


Above, Marx summarises before moving on to a more metaphysical interpretation of the same idea:

Since, however, the properties of a thing are not the result of its relations to other things, but only manifest themselves in such relations, the coat seems to be endowed with its equivalent form, its property of being directly exchangeable, just as much by Nature as it is endowed with the property of being heavy, or the capacity to keep us warm.Hence the enigmatical character of the equivalent form which escapes the notice of the bourgeois political economist, until this form, completely developed, confronts him in the shape of money. He then seeks to explain away the mystical character of gold and silver, by substituting for them less dazzling commodities, and by reciting, with ever renewed satisfaction, the catalogue of all possible commodities which at one time or another have played the part of equivalent. He has not the least suspicion that the most simple expression of value, such as 20 yds of linen = 1 coat, already propounds the riddle of the equivalent form for our solution.


We do not see the social relation which imbues commodities with their values in the exchange relation of relative and equivalent, so it appears as if only the physical properties of both commodities can serve to facilitate the comparison of their value. Nevertheless, Marx suggests that the exchangeability of two commodities and their exchange ratio is based upon a property of the coat (that it is a product of labour) and that property's relationship to other commodities (the relative magnitudes of their socially necessary labour times). Value persists in the relation of commodities and labours but nevertheless expresses itself as a definite property of the object; which is to say that Marx sees the value form as a social fact which imbues products of labour with value once entered into the exchange relation - once subsumed to the value form.

In a similar way to how use values are the form of manifestation of exchange values in the value form, concrete labour is the form of manifestation of abstract labour; Marx exploits the structural symmetry that was exhibited earlier:

In tailoring, as well as in weaving, human labour power is expended. Both, therefore, possess the general property of being human labour, and may, therefore, in certain cases, such as in the production of value, have to be considered under this aspect alone. There is nothing mysterious in this. But in the expression of value there is a complete turn of the tables. For instance, how is the fact to be expressed that weaving creates the value of the linen, not by virtue of being weaving, as such, but by reason of its general property of being human labour? Simply by opposing to weaving that other particular form of concrete labour (in this instance tailoring), which produces the equivalent of the product of weaving. Just as the coat in its bodily form became a direct expression of value, so now does tailoring, a concrete form of labour, appear as the direct and palpable embodiment of human labour generally.

fdrake October 15, 2018 at 12:58 #220495
So far we have that if 'x coats is worth y yards of linen', the exchange value of the x coats expresses itself as a definite quantity ( y ) of the use value linen. Underpinning this is that the concrete labour which produces x coats meets the concrete labour which produces y yards of linen as abstract labour to abstract labour; they are only comparable once all qualitative particularities are filtered out which are not shared between both.

This means the commodity functioning as the equivalent expresses the value (exchange value) of the commodity in the relative position by being a definite quantity of a use value whose constitutive labour counts alone as abstract labour.

So we have that from the view of the exchange relation concrete labour inverts to abstract labour and expresses it in productive activity; contemporaneously use value inverts to exchange value (for commensurability) and back again (as a magnitudinal property, duration). Along with this the private labour which makes each commodity expresses itself solely as the character of social labour which is required for the production of any commodity. Marx continues:

Hence, the second peculiarity of the equivalent form is, that concrete labour becomes the form under which its opposite, abstract human labour, manifests itself.

But because this concrete labour, tailoring in our case, ranks as, and is directly identified with, undifferentiated human labour, it also ranks as identical with any other sort of labour, and therefore with that embodied in the linen. Consequently, although, like all other commodity-producing labour, it is the labour of private individuals, yet, at the same time, it ranks as labour directly social in its character. This is the reason why it results in a product directly exchangeable with other commodities. We have then a third peculiarity of the equivalent form, namely, that the labour of private individuals takes the form of its opposite, labour directly social in its form.


We have a little composite of linked abstractions which transform each-other in exchange:

The use value in the equivalent form expresses the exchange value of the relative form through their exchange ratio; the commensurability of the use value in the relative position and of the use value in the equivalent position is ensured by the two meeting as abstract labour alone; which forces the concrete labours of their production to act as the expression of their abstract labour; which ensures that the private labour of individuals insofar as it produces commodities is always already social labour.
fdrake October 15, 2018 at 13:22 #220501
Little diagram of the structural oppositions/dual concepts in the value form:

User image

fdrake October 15, 2018 at 13:39 #220506
The remainder of the section is mostly reiteration through an example, going through Aristotle's analysis of value:

The two latter peculiarities of the equivalent form will become more intelligible if we go back to the great thinker who was the first to analyse so many forms, whether of thought, society, or Nature, and amongst them also the form of value. I mean Aristotle.

In the first place, he clearly enunciates that the money form of commodities is only the further development of the simple form of value – i.e., of the expression of the value of one commodity in some other commodity taken at random; for he says:

5 beds = 1 house (clinai pente anti oicia?)

is not to be distinguished from

5 beds = so much money. (clinai pente anti ... oson ai pente clinai)

He further sees that the value relation which gives rise to this expression makes it necessary that the house should qualitatively be made the equal of the bed, and that, without such an equalisation, these two clearly different things could not be compared with each other as commensurable quantities. “Exchange,” he says, “cannot take place without equality, and equality not without commensurability". (out isoth? mh oush? snmmetria?). Here, however, he comes to a stop, and gives up the further analysis of the form of value. “It is, however, in reality, impossible (th men oun alhqeia adunaton), that such unlike things can be commensurable” – i.e., qualitatively equal. Such an equalisation can only be something foreign to their real nature, consequently only “a makeshift for practical purposes.”

Aristotle therefore, himself, tells us what barred the way to his further analysis; it was the absence of any concept of value. What is that equal something, that common substance, which admits of the value of the beds being expressed by a house? Such a thing, in truth, cannot exist, says Aristotle. And why not? Compared with the beds, the house does represent something equal to them, in so far as it represents what is really equal, both in the beds and the house. And that is – human labour.


The last paragraph, however, introduces some new material; the value form is a historical/contingent mechanism that comes along with societies organised consistently with it and those which either do not prohibit or promote its development; it is not a transhistorical feature of exchange.

There was, however, an important fact which prevented Aristotle from seeing that, to attribute value to commodities, is merely a mode of expressing all labour as equal human labour, and consequently as labour of equal quality. Greek society was founded upon slavery, and had, therefore, for its natural basis, the inequality of men and of their labour powers. The secret of the expression of value, namely, that all kinds of labour are equal and equivalent, because, and so far as they are human labour in general, cannot be deciphered, until the notion of human equality has already acquired the fixity of a popular prejudice. This, however, is possible only in a society in which the great mass of the produce of labour takes the form of commodities, in which, consequently, the dominant relation between man and man, is that of owners of commodities. The brilliancy of Aristotle’s genius is shown by this alone, that he discovered, in the expression of the value of commodities, a relation of equality. The peculiar conditions of the society in which he lived, alone prevented him from discovering what, “in truth,” was at the bottom of this equality.


That concludes the section on the equivalent form. Marx then synthesises his sections on the relative form and the equivalent form into a deeper exegesis of their composite; the elementary form of value.

frank October 15, 2018 at 15:07 #220515
Just a note: Aristotle was familiar with free markets which were in the process of revolutionizing his world. Like Plato, he was concerned with moral aspects of the market. Aristotle believed it was wrong to price commodities based on their value in the market. He thought they should be priced according the the wealth of the buyer.

In the first place, he clearly enunciates that the money form of commodities is only the further development of the simple form of value – i.e., of the expression of the value of one commodity in some other commodity taken at random;
(my bold)

If Aristotle thought that, he was wrong. Aristotle didn't have access to anthropological information about pre-money economies, and he would need that to see what money really replaces. It's not only an abstraction of the value of a commodity. Money is a symbol of the foundation of trust that allows any kind of exchange to take place. That foundation came in the form of palace officials prior to the invention of money. Those officials set exchange rates (of barley for copper, for instance.) Palaces did seek profit, but not from small-time exchanges that took place within their own realms as people sought to meet their needs. Profit came from international trade, which had cultural and psychological dimensions.

So if Marx wants to explain how a commodity comes to have any value at all, he's right that labor costs are a factor. If he wants to explain where money actually comes from, there are a few more pieces of the puzzle to dig up. Perhaps he'll get to that in the next chapter.
fdrake October 15, 2018 at 18:57 #220564
Quoting frank
So if Marx wants to explain how a commodity comes to have any value at all, he's right that labor costs are a factor. If he wants to explain where money actually comes from, there are a few more pieces of the puzzle to dig up. Perhaps he'll get to that in the next chapter.


I get the sneaking suspicion that you're not putting much effort into studying the book or my exegesis of it. In one of the opening posts I highlighted that Marx's analysis begins with the myth of barter rather than a robust history of trade; so it shouldn't be expected to have all the historical specifics of the development of capital right. Regardless, he has to give an account of all the moving parts in his ideas before knotting them together right.

This is what made the first exegesis I did, of the money commodity and money form explicitly, gloss over the details which I'm now working on.

So yeah, the historical development of money is interesting; but his analysis turns on does he have an accurate picture of how value, money and the like work in a capitalist system of production rather than did he deduce the value form from more appropriate anthropological records.

Yes, currency tokens redeemable in specific amounts of goods are the historical ur-form of money. Yes, this implicates debt and property relations as co-emergent with currency (which Marx acknowledges; see references to money of account and the property relations inherent in C-M-C' an M-C-M' in my opening posts). Yes, 'gift economies' with incredibly complicated social norms of repayment are as old as humans making stuff in communities. If this endangers Marx's account I'm all for exploring it; but you keep contrasting your points to your misconceptions (like 'labour costs' and your continual mixing up of value and price) rather than to Marx's account or my exegesis.

frank October 15, 2018 at 19:21 #220568
Quoting fdrake
does he have an accurate picture of how value, money and the like work in a capitalist system of production


No. He doesn't.
fdrake October 15, 2018 at 19:44 #220570
Reply to frank

Stop wasting my time then.
frank October 15, 2018 at 19:47 #220571
Reply to fdrake Absolutely.
fdrake October 15, 2018 at 20:31 #220584
Reply to frank

If you do have substantive criticisms, can you please quote my exegesis or Marx? I also want discussions here to be mostly textual rather than freeform; so problems in Marx's logic, inaccurate examples or deductions, conceptual errors that make him necessarily elide relevant topics, bits he's missed - that kind of thing.

I acknowledge that the account so far would be better grounded in up to date anthropology. Though I do not see any obvious problems for Marx's account so far that arise from lack of knowledge of up to date anthropology. The only site of tension I see is between the modality of the links in the value form argument; abstract labour and value magnitudes being expressions of socially necessary labour time are both derived through a conceptual necessity; and the modality of the links as concrete historical circumstances; which are broad patterns of historical contingencies.

To some extent, the reasoning that occurs in Marx's analysis of the value form takes historical contingencies as grist for the conceptual mill; like the illustrative examples he uses which are clearly inspirations for him. This facilitates analysing the relationship of historical patterns by developing a web of concepts to link them. We don't look down at a good model's mathematical derivation for falling out of links of conceptual necessity because Nature hasn't derived it that way; we judge the derivation of the model on how well it captures the constitutive relations of its targeted phenomenon. (@Pierre-Normand due to similar themes from discussion 'Carlo Rivelli's...')

While it is nice to go through other bits of theory, like with @andrewk's kindly given examples about value and price, or @ssu's points earlier about the organisation of money being focussed on debt creation and management; I want to keep the thread on topic in the long term. So if these things touch on what's in the text so far, and their reference is needed to make a point, so be it. Otherwise, leave it.
fdrake October 20, 2018 at 15:41 #221513
Subsection 4: The Elementary Form of Value considered as a whole.

This section is mostly a summary of the Relative Form and Equivalent Form sections, and it sets up the analysis of the expanded form in the next section.

The first three paragraphs are recaps.

The elementary form of value of a commodity is contained in the equation, expressing its value relation to another commodity of a different kind, or in its exchange relation to the same. The value of commodity A, is qualitatively expressed, by the fact that commodity B is directly exchangeable with it. Its value is quantitatively expressed by the fact, that a definite quantity of B is exchangeable with a definite quantity of A. In other words, the value of a commodity obtains independent and definite expression, by taking the form of exchange value. When, at the beginning of this chapter, we said, in common parlance, that a commodity is both a use value and an exchange value, we were, accurately speaking, wrong. A commodity is a use value or object of utility, and a value. It manifests itself as this two-fold thing, that it is, as soon as its value assumes an independent form – viz., the form of exchange value. It never assumes this form when isolated, but only when placed in a value or exchange relation with another commodity of a different kind. When once we know this, such a mode of expression does no harm; it simply serves as an abbreviation.


Commodities are a composite of use and exchange value. The use value of the commodity is what it may be used for, the exchange value is what it may be exchanged for. Use and exchange are not on equal footing metaphysically, the use value follows from the physical properties imbued into the commodity during its acts of production; use value is product of concrete labour. Exchange value, however, follows from the social structure of exchange; specifically how much labour was expended in the production of the commodity. However, it is not the case that the value of a commodity is branded upon it by the specific duration of the concrete labour which produced it, rather the expenditure of human labour power in its production is socially mediated through the general social conditions for that commodity's production. In this manner, the exchange value arises from the statistical properties of the social processes of its production, not from the physical properties of the commodity. Furthermore, a commodity can only be said to have an exchange value when it is treated under the aspect of exchange; equated to others notionally or treated as equivalents in exchange.

Our analysis has shown, that the form or expression of the value of a commodity originates in the nature of value, and not that value and its magnitude originate in the mode of their expression as exchange value. This, however, is the delusion as well of the mercantilists and their recent revivers, Ferrier, Ganilh,[23] and others, as also of their antipodes, the modern bagmen of Free-trade, such as Bastiat. The mercantilists lay special stress on the qualitative aspect of the expression of value, and consequently on the equivalent form of commodities, which attains its full perfection in money. The modern hawkers of Free-trade, who must get rid of their article at any price, on the other hand, lay most stress on the quantitative aspect of the relative form of value. For them there consequently exists neither value, nor magnitude of value, anywhere except in its expression by means of the exchange relation of commodities, that is, in the daily list of prices current. Macleod, who has taken upon himself to dress up the confused ideas of Lombard Street in the most learned finery, is a successful cross between the superstitious mercantilists, and the enlightened Free-trade bagmen.


Marx stresses that the analysis of the form of value logically precedes concrete acts of exchange; he sees the form of value both as a condition of possibility for exchange and valuation to function as is in the sphere of capitalist production; and he sees it as a real component of what occurs to the commodity in terms of its value when it is subject to exchange. In this regard, we can view the analysis of the value form so far as (the beginnings of) a semantics of 'x is worth y' in capitalist production and exchange. The account of the meaning of 'x is worth y' consists in what it means for x to be in the first slot in the phrase; for it to be in the relative form; and for y to be in the second slot in the phrase; for y to be in the equivalent form. Marx summarises his developments on this topic:

A close scrutiny of the expression of the value of A in terms of B, contained in the equation expressing the value relation of A to B, has shown us that, within that relation, the bodily form of A figures only as a use value, the bodily form of B only as the form or aspect of value. The opposition or contrast existing internally in each commodity between use value and value, is, therefore, made evident externally by two commodities being placed in such relation to each other, that the commodity whose value it is sought to express, figures directly as a mere use value, while the commodity in which that value is to be expressed, figures directly as mere exchange value. Hence the elementary form of value of a commodity is the elementary form in which the contrast contained in that commodity, between use value and value, becomes apparent.



Every product of labour is, in all states of society, a use value; but it is only at a definite historical epoch in a society’s development that such a product becomes a commodity, viz., at the epoch when the labour spent on the production of a useful article becomes expressed as one of the objective qualities of that article, i.e., as its value. It therefore follows that the elementary value form is also the primitive form under which a product of labour appears historically as a commodity, and that the gradual transformation of such products into commodities, proceeds pari passu with the development of the value form.


'x is worth y' expresses the (exchange) value of x as a definite quantity of the use value of y. x counts as its exchange value while y counts as a definite quantity of use value. Therefore, a given amount of x is worth a given amount of y means the value of x is the given amount of y. Recognising that 'x is worth y' presents its constitutive social relations as a numerical equivalence, Marx notes that this also implies 'x is worth y'; the value form; is developed through history.

We perceive, at first sight, the deficiencies of the elementary form of value: it is a mere germ, which must undergo a series of metamorphoses before it can ripen into the price form.

The expression of the value of commodity A in terms of any other commodity B, merely distinguishes the value from the use value of A, and therefore places A merely in a relation of exchange with a single different commodity, B; but it is still far from expressing A’s qualitative equality, and quantitative proportionality, to all commodities. To the elementary relative value form of a commodity, there corresponds the single equivalent form of one other commodity. Thus, in the relative expression of value of the linen, the coat assumes the form of equivalent, or of being directly exchangeable, only in relation to a single commodity, the linen.


The elementary form of value is conceptually the simplest value form Marx analyses which is still relevant for capitalist production; the other forms of value make different uses of 'x is worth y' germinally, as its constitutive elements. When actually looking at commodities we can find that 'x is worth y' but also that 'x is worth z' and 'y is worth t', and all of these can be considered at once and co-occur as equivalent valuations. The elementary form of value provides a semantics solely for statements taking the form 'x is worth y' with no additional structure; no extra commodities or their exchange relations.

Nevertheless, the elementary form of value passes by an easy transition into a more complete form. It is true that by means of the elementary form, the value of a commodity A, becomes expressed in terms of one, and only one, other commodity. But that one may be a commodity of any kind, coat, iron, corn, or anything else. Therefore, according as A is placed in relation with one or the other, we get for one and the same commodity, different elementary expressions of value.[24] The number of such possible expressions is limited only by the number of the different kinds of commodities distinct from it. The isolated expression of A’s value, is therefore convertible into a series, prolonged to any length, of the different elementary expressions of that value.


Marx indicates that the next stage of his analysis of value will begin b making composites of 'x is worth y', of the form 'x is worth y', 'x is worth z' and so on. Having the relative value of x take on different commodities for its equivalent. Which leads us onto the next section, the expanded form of value.






fdrake October 20, 2018 at 16:02 #221518
Diagram of the expanded form of value. Lines between commodities denote instances of 'x is worth y'.

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fdrake October 20, 2018 at 17:40 #221533
Subsubsection: The Expanded Relative Form of Value

The major new feature of the expanded form of value over the elementary form of value is that value has become universal. This in the sense that a commodity stands as commensurable to all other commodities through exchange; with their exchange ratios determined with the same means as before.

The value of a single commodity, the linen, for example, is now expressed in terms of numberless other elements of the world of commodities.


This is the meaning of mapping the elementary forms above; aRb, aRc, aRd to their composite in the expanded form: aR{b,c,d}. This means that 'a is worth b, a is worth c and a is worth d' transforms to 'a is worth b or c or d', and thus the relative value of a is now expressed in terms of all other commodities which share its worth.

In terms of the previous algebraic structure of commodities, the nature of the 'is worth' relation has changed from 'x is worth y' being a disordered (yet symmetric) set of pairs to 'x is worth [y]', where [y] is the collection of all commodities which are substitutable in this expression. Insofar as all commodities in a definite quantity have the same value as x they serve together as the equivalent form of value for x. Marx expands on this point using the previously established structural symmetries relating expressions of value to social characteristics of labour.

Every other commodity now becomes a mirror of the linen’s value.[25] It is thus, that for the first time, this value shows itself in its true light as a congelation of undifferentiated human labour. For the labour that creates it, now stands expressly revealed, as labour that ranks equally with every other sort of human labour, no matter what its form, whether tailoring, ploughing, mining, &c., and no matter, therefore, whether it is realised in coats, corn, iron, or gold.


For Marx, the expanded form of value obviously displays the homogeneity of human labour in terms of its value creative aspects which was hidden in the analysis of the elementary form alone. The qualitative particularity of commodities in terms of their useful physical characteristics (use values) and the acts of labour which imbue the commodity with those characteristics is completely suppressed in the expanded form; this is because the expanded form relates any quantity of a use value to some quantity of every other use value. Value becomes untethered from the elementary form to the extent that the elementary form completely iterates through the set of all commodities and maps pairs of commodities to their exchange ratios. As Marx puts it:

The linen, by virtue of the form of its value, now stands in a social relation, no longer with only one other kind of commodity, but with the whole world of commodities. As a commodity, it is a citizen of that world. At the same time, the interminable series of value equations implies, that as regards the value of a commodity, it is a matter of indifference under what particular form, or kind, of use value it appears.


The iteration of the elementary form of value through the set of commodities destroys the privilege of y in the 'x is worth y' relation; the form of manifestation of x's value is no longer a definite quantity of a fixed use value, it is of a set of all use values in quantities that render them equivalent to x. Marx expands on this point:

In the first form, 20 yds of linen = 1 coat, it might, for ought that otherwise appears, be pure accident, that these two commodities are exchangeable in definite quantities. In the second form, on the contrary, we perceive at once the background that determines, and is essentially different from, this accidental appearance. The value of the linen remains unaltered in magnitude, whether expressed in coats, coffee, or iron, or in numberless different commodities, the property of as many different owners. The accidental relation between two individual commodity-owners disappears.


The 'background' marks refers to is the commensurability of all commodities with each other; that they can all serve as the equivalent for any other in some determinate quantity. Marx points out a category error which this highlights; when we consider two goods with equivalent worth in capitalist regimes of production, what is special about 'x is worth y' as an expression of value for x? Nothing at all; this means that it would be impossible to determine the values for x and for y in terms of 'x is worth y' in the absence of this universal medium of exchange. Just as 'x is worth x' was a meaningless tautology before, 'x is worth y' loses its specific meaning as the expression of x's value because x's value distributes over the entire set of commodities. Concrete acts of exchange, incidents of the relation 'x is worth y', lose their capacity to determinately express x's value even though they still express x's value as a mere instance of the expanded form. Thus Marx points out:

It becomes plain, that it is not the exchange of commodities which regulates the magnitude of their value; but, on the contrary, that it is the magnitude of their value which controls their exchange proportions.


2. The particular Equivalent form

Marx exploits the structural symmetry between use/exchange values and concrete/abstract labour to chart the transformation of labour under the expanded form:

Each commodity, such as, coat, tea, corn, iron, &c., figures in the expression of value of the linen, as an equivalent, and, consequently, as a thing that is value. The bodily form of each of these commodities figures now as a particular equivalent form, one out of many. In the same way the manifold concrete useful kinds of labour, embodied in these different commodities, rank now as so many different forms of the realisation, or manifestation, of undifferentiated human labour.


The iteration of 'x is worth y' through the set of commodities also conditions the concrete instances of labour which produce x and y; y is now an arbitrary placeholder which represents the set of quantities of commodities which can serve as an equivalent to x. The universalisation of value over the commodities maps the functioning of the value form explicitly to all of its quantitative exchange relations; and insofar as it does this, human labour embodied in each commodity is equated to human labour embodied in any other; yielding the sum total of productive labour as an amorphous goop (of abstract labour) as far as the value form is concerned.





fdrake October 20, 2018 at 18:02 #221539
The loss of determinate expression of a commodity's value in the expanded form above is analysed in the next section.

3. Defects of the Total or Expanded form of value

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but my brain has died now. More later.


fdrake October 20, 2018 at 19:24 #221549
The above diagram represents what I believe is the intuition behind Marx's diagnosis of 'defects' in the expanded form of value developed thus far. Marx begins his analysis of these defects as follows:

In the first place, the relative expression of value is incomplete because the series representing it is interminable. The chain of which each equation of value is a link, is liable at any moment to be lengthened by each new kind of commodity that comes into existence and furnishes the material for a fresh expression of value.


Imagine that we start from a commodity, pictured above as 1 yard of linen, and we have its set of equivalents: 1 egg, 1 pen, 1 coat. The only way we can express the value of 1 yard of linen is to put it in the relative form with respect to some equivalent; but we have 1 egg, 1 pen and 1 coat as the set of equivalents. We wish to obtain a determinate expression for the value of 1 yard of linen, and must thus appeal to an equivalent for it. However, as soon as we obtain an equivalent for it (either 1 egg, 1 pen or 1 coat), that commodity's relative value is expressed through its own 'is worth' relations; and is substitutable for all the commodities for which it has equivalent worth. We can keep substituting like this and end up with this expanding graph emanating from 1 yard of linen as its source.

To be sure, each 'x is worth y' does indeed express the value of x in terms of y, but the value of y must also be expressed in terms of one of its equivalents to make sense of the idea that the equivalent is now a set of commodities rather than any specific one. Universal commensurability was obtained in the value form at the price of the indeterminacy of each instance of the 'is worth' relation; whose destruction manifests as a one to many relationship between the relative and equivalent forms. This renders indeterminate the expression of relative values with precisely the same mechanism as it renders commensurable a commodity with every other. Marx continues:

In the second place, it is a many-coloured mosaic of disparate and independent expressions of value. And lastly, if, as must be the case, the relative value of each commodity in turn, becomes expressed in this expanded form, we get for each of them a relative value form, different in every case, and consisting of an interminable series of expressions of value.


and highlights a second deficiency of the expanded form analysed so far. The diagram above shows what happens when you try to obtain the value of a commodity through an equivalent solely with reference to the expanded form; a ceaseless chain of substitutable elements. Such a chain is not guaranteed to be the same for every commodity; indeed if we took half a yard of linen the quantities of commodities it is exchanged for differ and produce different nodes on the graph. This means that the relative form is not consistent over commodities despite portraying the same essential relationship of value equivalence.

The defects of the expanded relative value form are reflected in the corresponding equivalent form. Since the bodily form of each single commodity is one particular equivalent form amongst numberless others, we have, on the whole, nothing but fragmentary equivalent forms, each excluding the others. In the same way, also, the special, concrete, useful kind of labour embodied in each particular equivalent, is presented only as a particular kind of labour, and therefore not as an exhaustive representative of human labour generally. The latter, indeed, gains adequate manifestation in the totality of its manifold, particular, concrete forms. But, in that case, its expression in an infinite series is ever incomplete and deficient in unity.


'Each excluding the others' references that once a definite quantity of a commodity is selected, the above diagram would have all of its nodes relabelled; the set of all commodities becomes relativised to a particular commodity, despite that 'x is worth y' should be a statement of equivalent worth in the same sense. The 'sense' of 'x is worth y' in the deficient expanded form is given by these ceaselessly expanding graphs, unique in node labels for every originating commodity.





fdrake October 20, 2018 at 19:33 #221550
Marx proceeds to 'fix' these problems (lack of unity, indeterminate expression) in the expanded form.

First exploiting the symmetry condition of the 'is worth' relation:
The expanded relative value form is, however, nothing but the sum of the elementary relative expressions or equations of the first kind, such as:

20 yards of linen = 1 coat
20 yards of linen = 10 lbs of tea, etc.

Each of these implies the corresponding inverted equation,

1 coat = 20 yards of linen
10 lbs of tea = 20 yards of linen, etc.


In fact, when a person exchanges his linen for many other commodities, and thus expresses its value in a series of other commodities, it necessarily follows, that the various owners of the latter exchange them for the linen, and consequently express the value of their various commodities in one and the same third commodity, the linen. If then, we reverse the series, 20 yards of linen = 1 coat or = 10 lbs of tea, etc., that is to say, if we give expression to the converse relation already implied in the series, we get.

(my drawing rather than Marx's)

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This gives valuation the structure of a surjective function on the set of commodities; a set of commodities of equivalent value is mapped to a specific amount of one commodity which serves as the equivalent.
fdrake October 22, 2018 at 16:21 #221832
So one puzzle here is that the general form of value (depicted on the right above) is consistent with the deficient expanded form of value (on the left above); the first and the second are dual notions. This is scouting ahead a bit, but it's worthwhile showing exactly why transitivity is an important component of the value form.

What this means precisely is that if we have aRb, aRc, aRd, where a is the yard of linen, b the coat, c the pen and e the egg, then we also have bRa , cRa and dRa in the value form when conceived as the relation T on the set of commodities - again, this is because the relation is symmetric. If the two notions are dual; like 'less than or equal to' and 'greater than or equal to'; how can one be deficient and the other not when one is just the transposition of the other?

Marx summarises the deficiency as follows:

The (Any specific equivalent), indeed, gains adequate manifestation in the totality of its manifold, particular, concrete forms. But, in that case, its expression in an infinite series is ever incomplete and deficient in unity.


And summarises why transposing the deficient to the general form solves the problem:

All commodities now express their value (1) in an elementary form, because in a single commodity; (2) with unity, because in one and the same commodity. This form of value is elementary and the same for all, therefore general.


Mathematically then, removing the deficiencies of the expanded form has to place a single commodity as an equivalent for the infinite series of commodities; that commodity's relative value is then expressed through the commodities in that chain. Moreover, the commodities in that chain should present a single magnitude of value. As Marx puts it:

All commodities being equated to linen now appear not only as qualitatively equal as values generally, but also as values whose magnitudes are capable of comparison. By expressing the magnitudes of their values in one and the same material, the linen, those magnitudes are also compared with each other. For instance, 10 lbs of tea = 20 yards of linen, and 40 lbs of coffee = 20 yards of linen. Therefore, 10 lbs of tea = 40 lbs of coffee. In other words, there is contained in 1 lb of coffee only one-fourth as much substance of value – labour – as is contained in 1 lb of tea


Here is the first explicit mention of the transitivity of T. 10 tea = 20 linen, 20 linen = 40 coffee, 10 tea = 40 coffee. So the 'deficiency in unity' of the relative form is solved by requiring the transitivity of T; which means that T is now reflexive, symmetric and transitive. An equivalence relation - like equality of numbers. This partitions the set of commodities into subsets of equal worth.

However, the raw equivalence relation itself is still applicable to the expanded form of value with its deficiencies intact. If we wanted to look at the expanded form in general and obtain the value of say 1 yard of linen, how could we do this? We need to avoid this many-to-one relationship when trying to value 1 yard of linen, otherwise its expression is 'deficient in unity'.

Which is to say, if we want to obtain the value of 1 yard of linen, we should take only the elements of T which have 1 yard of linen in the right position; collecting all x for which 'x is worth 1 yard of linen'. If we do this in my example with pens, eggs and coats, this gives the set {1 pen, 1 egg, 1 coat, (1 yard of linen, but ignore this}} mapping to {1 yard of linen}. Can we conclude from this set up that 1 pen, 1 egg and 1 coat are of equivalent value?

We have that 1 pen is worth 1 yard of linen, but also that 1 yard of linen is worth 1 egg. Therefore 1 pen is worth 1 egg. What this entails is 'chasing arrows' along the diagram, if there is a path between a commodity and another commodity then they are worth the same. This means that all {1 pen, 1 egg, 1 coat} are all connected through 1 yard of linen, and so are worth the same. We also have that for all commodities xTy and yTz imply xTz (argument for this is simple; link all commodities through their equivalent, the whole thing is a 'chain of equations' 1 pen <-> 1 egg <-> 1 coat <-> 1 pen, and this is what a transitive relation looks like). So when T is restricted in the manner: {x in C such that xT(1 yard of linen) }, it becomes a surjective function from C to {1 yard of linen} (avoiding many to one) and everything in that set is of equivalent worth.



fdrake October 23, 2018 at 10:28 #221937
Diagram of all forms of value to date. Click to zoom.

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fdrake October 23, 2018 at 12:37 #221950
Going through the section more meticulously now, this expands on the exegesis for the Marx's solution to the deficiency in the expanded form and that forms' modification to the general form A,B,C denote the forms of value pictured above. A is elementary, B is expanded with deficiency, C is expanded with the deficiency removed; general.

Considering C as compared to A and B:

All commodities now express their value (1) in an elementary form, because in a single commodity; (2) with unity, because in one and the same commodity. This form of value is elementary and the same for all, therefore general.


The recipe to move from the deficient expanded form to the general form is to place a restriction on the 'is worth' relation T. A restriction of a relation confines that relation to when defined properties hold of its inputs. EG, if we have the relation 'x is taller than y' on the set of all humans, we can restrict that relation to children and obtain an ordering on children's heights rather than children and adults. Formally what this looks like is:

[math]\big( (x,y)\in T| \text{such that}: P(x,y)\big)[/math]

where T is the 'is worth' relation and P(x,y) is some property of either x or y or both. In the case pictured above, the relation T looks like this for the deficient form (with the notionally equal values and reflexives thrown in):

[math]\text{Pairs explicitly established in relation}: P=(a,b), (a,c), (a,d), (b,a),(c,a),(d,a)[/math]
[math]\text{Pairs established through transitivity}:Q=(b,c),(b,d),(c,b),(d,b),(c,d), (d,c)[/math]
[math]\text{Pairs established through reflexivity}:R=(a,a),(b,b),(c,c),(d,d)[/math]
[math]T=(P,Q,R)[/math]

had to change to () and split it up because {} breaks with longer equations for some reason. The restriction of the deficient form to only those pairs which have a in the place on the right yields:

[math]T|a=T|a \text{ is equivalent} = \big( (b,a),(c,a),(d,a),(a,a) \big)[/math]

which defines a function on {a,b,c,d} to {a} such that every element besides a is mapped onto a. This function supplies the conditions (1) and (2) - only one entity occupies the position of equivalent ( a )
and it is the only member of its set (unity). Also the plurality of elements in the relative form is annihilated in terms of their value because T holds between them all. Another way to think of this is that what we are doing is picking a single element, a, out of the equivalence relation, T, finding a's equivalence class [a] (all elements related to a), then mapping all the elements in [a] besides a to a.

Excluding (a,a) from T is almost the same as choosing a representative of the equivalence class as discussed before, if we also map a to a then this really is choosing a representative. a 'avoids' this map because for Marx aTa never holds, but since including it is harmless (as argued before), we can map a to a and obtain a substantial theoretical insight and simplification. The value of a commodity is equal to the value of any of its equivalents.

Because equivalence relations partition the set of commodities, this renders the value unique for any commodity and a single commodity (even the same one for each class, which will appear in varying amounts for each class) can be chosen as the representative for each equivalence class. So 'a' could be chosen for all of them.

So the restriction onto 'targeting a' is better thought of as choosing a representative for the equivalence class. Note that completing the relation by applying symmetry, transitivity and reflexivity to T|a yields T again - the deficient form never 'went away' and the equivalence classes use it to express value determinately - as desired.

For the sake of explicitness, choosing a as the representative of the equivalence class (a,b,c,d) is this mapping F=(a->a,b->a,c->a,d->a). Restricting T to a (forming T|a) without including the pair (a,a) in T (excluding reflexives) gives G=(b->a,c->a,d->a). It's obvious that if we include a in the set G works on we end up with F; choosing a as the representative.

The forms A and B were fit only to express the value of a commodity as something distinct from its use value or material form.

The first form, A, furnishes such equations as the following: – 1 coat = 20 yards of linen, 10 lbs of tea = ½ a ton of iron. The value of the coat is equated to linen, that of the tea to iron. But to be equated to linen, and again to iron, is to be as different as are linen and iron. This form, it is plain, occurs practically only in the first beginning, when the products of labour are converted into commodities by accidental and occasional exchanges.


From the perspective of the elementary form A, we can imagine an isolated series of trade relations each saying x is worth y and y is worth x. Following the myth of barter, this tracks 'accidental' exchanges before the transformation of an economy into commodity production. The elementary form of value, as frank pointed out earlier (and I pointed out in an opening post) doesn't actually reflect the form of value in a capitalist economy (too little structure for its general function). If trades remain isolated and goods are not produced primarily for exchange , considerations of relative utility rather than relative value will be the norm.

The second form, B, distinguishes, in a more adequate manner than the first, the value of a commodity from its use value, for the value of the coat is there placed in contrast under all possible shapes with the bodily form of the coat; it is equated to linen, to iron, to tea, in short, to everything else, only not to itself, the coat. On the other hand, any general expression of value common to all is directly excluded; for, in the equation of value of each commodity, all other commodities now appear only under the form of equivalents. The expanded form of value comes into actual existence for the first time so soon as a particular product of labour, such as cattle, is no longer exceptionally, but habitually, exchanged for various other commodities.


Form B is adopted when a trade network expands and begins to centralise around a set of privileged goods. Value obtains no unitary and substrate-independent expression in this form (recall the notes on the indeterminacy of the expanded form), rather goods obtain their values through what they may be traded for normally. It consists of coupled and inter-related elementary forms with several centralising commodities; like cattle, shells, patches of cloth for real world examples. Comparisons of utility may still drive exchanges somewhat, but this form of value is the first time that a mercantile, 'get more stuff' perspective can be adopted towards the entire network of goods. Amassing wealth in this form is still associated with amassing use values rather than exchange value (due to the indeterminacy of the expression of value).

The third and lastly developed form expresses the values of the whole world of commodities in terms of a single commodity set apart for the purpose, namely, the linen, and thus represents to us their values by means of their equality with linen. The value of every commodity is now, by being equated to linen, not only differentiated from its own use value, but from all other use values generally, and is, by that very fact, expressed as that which is common to all commodities. By this form, commodities are, for the first time, effectively brought into relation with one another as values, or made to appear as exchange values.


Form C, the general form, requires that the entire trade network is able to be relativised to the production of one good (restricting T to a in my example, restricting to linen in Marx's), but the logic works for any good to obtain its value in a definite amount. The social norms surrounding trade centralise around the trade of a particular good for goods in general and goods in general in a definite amount have their measure in an amount of that particular good. This produces a substrate independent character to value; it no longer needs to relate to anything but the mere presence of utility (bearing a use value, being the product of social labour); and the properties of the value of commodities become aligned with the statistical properties of their production processes; of human labour in the abstract.
fdrake October 24, 2018 at 15:00 #222102
The two earlier forms (A,B) either express the value of each commodity in terms of a single commodity of a different kind ( A ), or in a series of many such commodities (B) . In both cases, it is, so to say, the special business of each single commodity to find an expression for its value, and this it does without the help of the others. These others, with respect to the former, play the passive parts of equivalents.


The passivity ascribed to commodities in forms A and B is a reference to their status as networks of 'accidental' exchange, commodities are traded for each other when they are worth each other, but this worth does not have a universal standard; the value forms A and B are 'deficient in unity' because...


The general form of value, C, results from the joint action of the whole world of commodities, and from that alone. A commodity can acquire a general expression of its value only by all other commodities, simultaneously with it, expressing their values in the same equivalent; and every new commodity must follow suit. It thus becomes evident that since the existence of commodities as values is purely social, this social existence can be expressed by the totality of their social relations alone, and consequently that the form of their value must be a socially recognised form.


the valuations they consist of do not form an integrated system of exchange or of a notion of value ascription which applies over all such trades. Moreover, they generally will have the form of barter - any good for any good in A, or any good for an important good in B - as contrasted to C. In C, all commodities express their value in a single commodity; and the logic works for any commodity. Which is to say that the notion of value in C forces every commodity to express the value of every other commodity relative to it; any can be elected as a universal equivalent. The ascription of a universal equivalent (linen in Marx's example, a in my mathematical note) is the distinguishing characteristic of the general form C, but it is not solely a conceptual ascription, the way value works economically must be consistent with C and reproduce it. Which is to say, all commodities must have value in a univocal sense and this sense must be expressed as the value of any commodity, and that understanding of value should be carried forth by the social circumstances embodying it.

All commodities being equated to linen now appear not only as qualitatively equal as values generally, but also as values whose magnitudes are capable of comparison. By expressing the magnitudes of their values in one and the same material, the linen, those magnitudes are also compared with each other. For instance, 10 lbs of tea = 20 yards of linen, and 40 lbs of coffee = 20 yards of linen. Therefore, 10 lbs of tea = 40 lbs of coffee. In other words, there is contained in 1 lb of coffee only one-fourth as much substance of value – labour – as is contained in 1 lb of tea.


This section diagnoses the transitivity of 'is worth' as an essential constituent of the value form, roughly why this is required is because it allows the formation of a universal equivalent and the equivalence classes of value that equivalent represents in a definite quantity. It is at this point that the social relationships between the commodities which affix their exchange ratios are given summary through and embodied fully in each and every commodity. If this is reminiscent of commodity fetishism - in which the social relations between people appear as material relations of things -, it should.

The general form of relative value, embracing the whole world of commodities, converts the single commodity that is excluded from the rest, and made to play the part of equivalent – here the linen – into the universal equivalent. The bodily form of the linen is now the form assumed in common by the values of all commodities; it therefore becomes directly exchangeable with all and every of them. The substance linen becomes the visible incarnation, the social chrysalis state of every kind of human labour. Weaving, which is the labour of certain private individuals producing a particular article, linen, acquires in consequence a social character, the character of equality with all other kinds of labour. The innumerable equations of which the general form of value is composed, equate in turn the labour embodied in the linen to that embodied in every other commodity, and they thus convert weaving into the general form of manifestation of undifferentiated human labour. In this manner the labour realised in the values of commodities is presented not only under its negative aspect, under which abstraction is made from every concrete form and useful property of actual work, but its own positive nature is made to reveal itself expressly. The general value form is the reduction of all kinds of actual labour to their common character of being human labour generally, of being the expenditure of human labour power.


Another argument from structural symmetry (see here for summary diagram), since every commodity manifests in a universal equivalent, the concrete labours in each only matter in terms of the abstract labour they embody. Marx sees forms A, B and C as developments of intensity of the dominance of abstract over concrete labour (of value over utility as determinants of economic worth), and C is the first structure which exhibits the total dominance of value over utility.

This perspective dominates the social function and perception of labour when form C is operative.

'Do you like your job?'
'No.'
'Why do you keep doing it?'
'It pays the bills'

As Marx puts it:

The general value form, which represents all products of labour as mere congelations of undifferentiated human labour, shows by its very structure that it is the social resumé of the world of commodities. That form consequently makes it indisputably evident that in the world of commodities the character possessed by all labour of being human labour constitutes its specific social character.


The social function of labour becomes equated with its value creative component.

fdrake November 02, 2018 at 15:18 #224233
The next subsection 'The Interdependent Development of the Relative Form of Value and the Equivalent Form of Value' sets out the conceptual character of the progression from elementary to expanded to general forms of value. It is not, strictly speaking, a historical account, its emphasis is more on stating how the elementary form can expand to the expanded form, then how the expanded form can condense itself into an equivalence relation of commodities.

The degree of development of the relative form of value corresponds to that of the equivalent form. But we must bear in mind that the development of the latter is only the expression and result of the development of the former.


I think this is a bit of conceptual book keeping, the idea of one thing expressing its value in another is conceptually (and historically) prior to both being seen as equivalent expressions of value magnitudes. This means that the elementary relative form of value is as old as exchange, and the others occur as historical developments suggested by possible social developments of exchange networks prima facie compatible with the elementary form; though that compatibility still allows room for social and metaphysical tensions inherent in the more developed value forms with the elementary form which is their basis.

The primary or isolated relative form of value of one commodity converts some other commodity into an isolated equivalent. The expanded form of relative value, which is the expression of the value of one commodity in terms of all other commodities, endows those other commodities with the character of particular equivalents differing in kind. And lastly, a particular kind of commodity acquires the character of universal equivalent, because all other commodities make it the material in which they uniformly express their value.


As said many times before, the primary or isolated form of relative value is obtained by dealing with specific pairs of commodities which are exchanged within a social system of exchange. The individual pairs of Xs and Ys such that (X is worth Y) and (Y is worth X) together are considered as separate relations of trade; these are incidental in character, and the relation which binds X to Y alone does not have to share the same character as that relation which holds between A and B when they too are traded. The aggregation of these trade relations together with no additional structure; when a social system of exchange becomes the means by which most needs, wants and utilities are satisfied and apportioned; is the character of the expanded form (without restriction to one commodity).

The antagonism between the relative form of value and the equivalent form, the two poles of the value form, is developed concurrently with that form itself.

The first form, 20 yds of linen = one coat, already contains this antagonism, without as yet fixing it. According as we read this equation forwards or backwards, the parts played by the linen and the coat are different. In the one case the relative value of the linen is expressed in the coat, in the other case the relative value of the coat is expressed in the linen. In this first form of value, therefore, it is difficult to grasp the polar contrast.

Form B shows that only one single commodity at a time can completely expand its relative value, and that it acquires this expanded form only because, and in so far as, all other commodities are, with respect to it, equivalents. Here we cannot reverse the equation, as we can the equation 20 yds of linen = 1 coat, without altering its general character, and converting it from the expanded form of value into the general form of value.

Finally, the form C gives to the world of commodities a general social relative form of value, because, and in so far as, thereby all commodities, with the exception of one, are excluded from the equivalent form. A single commodity, the linen, appears therefore to have acquired the character of direct exchangeability with every other commodity because, and in so far as, this character is denied to every other commodity.[26]


Marx's reference to the inability to 'reverse the expanded form' without changing its' general character' refers to the duality referenced before between choosing a representative from an equivalence class and presenting those things which are equivalent to it. The first takes an equivalent network of commodities and maps it to a particular equivalent, the second takes a particular equivalent and maps it to its network of commodities which allow that equivalent's relative value to be expressed.

Formally speaking, the previous characterisation in terms of choosing a representative is a function which maps an equivalence class of commodities to a single one of its members, and presenting those things which have their relative value expressed in the representative choice is taking that function's pre-image from the representative element.

User image

Fixing a specific type of commodity whose amounts uniquely represent every value equivalence class renders that commodity as a universal equivalent.

The commodity that figures as universal equivalent, is, on the other hand, excluded from the relative value form. If the linen, or any other commodity serving as universal equivalent, were, at the same time, to share in the relative form of value, it would have to serve as its own equivalent. We should then have 20 yds of linen = 20 yds of linen; this tautology expresses neither value, nor magnitude of value. In order to express the relative value of the universal equivalent, we must rather reverse the form C. This equivalent has no relative form of value in common with other commodities, but its value is relatively expressed by a never ending series of other commodities. Thus, the expanded form of relative value, or form B, now shows itself as the specific form of relative value for the equivalent commodity.


With reference to the previous discussion about whether X is worth X, Marx agrees that it alone does not assure the expression of the value of X, and also agrees that it is a tautology. Even when X is worth X however, the value expressive part of the relation for the universal equivalent; the set of commodities which serve as the above pre-image; is the total expression of relative value for the universal equivalent.

This means that the expanded form is contained within the general form (with its universal equivalent and transitive closure properties) precisely as the relative form of value for the universal equivalent.
unenlightened November 03, 2018 at 16:17 #224437
I might be stating the obvious or wildly off base... It seems to me that commodities arise iff the labour value of 'his daily bread' is less than a day's labour; otherwise we starve. This allows the commodification of the labourer as the difference between his production and consumption. Apart from the obvious application to the slave trade and the asset-stripping labour camp, this roots value in surplus production and explains the source of the value in commodities in a non-arbitrary way.
fdrake November 03, 2018 at 17:41 #224463
Reply to unenlightened

Yep! That comes later. The account so far tries to give a meaning to value pertaining to commodities, how they can come to have prices, how one magnitude of a commodity can be worth a different magnitude of another and so on. The creation of profit for Marx, as you diagnosed, comes from selling the product of someone's labour for more than its cost of production; this is termed the extraction of surplus value by exploitation. The worker's lack of ownership and inability to determine what happens to what they produce is called alienation. Alienation and exploitation make sense upon the background of a societal division of labour in the production of commodities, and a system where needs are met through purchase of goods and services. All together that gives whoever owns the product of the worker's labour more value than they started with and sets up a feedback loop that by and large keeps people as workers if at any point that don't have much money.
unenlightened November 03, 2018 at 19:12 #224491
Quoting fdrake
The creation of profit for Marx, as you diagnosed, comes from selling the product of someone's labour for more than its cost of production; this is termed the extraction of surplus value by exploitation.


That's not quite what I meant. On an individual level, my hunting and gathering sufficient to sustain myself for a day takes less than all day, and leaves me time to knapp a flint into a spearhead. That in turn makes me more productive as I can hunt more efficiently. That you can also gather sufficient to sustain yourself in less than a day means that you can gather some extra and exchange with me so that I can knapp another flint and you can have a spearhead too. So from the beginning, it is the spare time, spared from basic sustenance, that allows the extra production that creates commodities to exchange, and makes room for professionalisation. The exploitation comes later, but is also only possible because production is greater than consumption on the individual level. That this allows exploitation is secondary.

fdrake November 03, 2018 at 19:42 #224500
Reply to unenlightened

This makes sense.
fdrake November 27, 2018 at 09:16 #231580
Long break, but the next section is short: 3. Transition from the General form of value to the Money form (form D)

The universal equivalent form is a form of value in general. It can, therefore, be assumed by any commodity. On the other hand, if a commodity be found to have assumed the universal equivalent form (form C), this is only because and in so far as it has been excluded from the rest of all other commodities as their equivalent, and that by their own act. And from the moment that this exclusion becomes finally restricted to one particular commodity, from that moment only, the general form of relative value of the world of commodities obtains real consistence and general social validity.

The particular commodity, with whose bodily form the equivalent form is thus socially identified, now becomes the money commodity, or serves as money. It becomes the special social function of that commodity, and consequently its social monopoly, to play within the world of commodities the part of the universal equivalent. Amongst the commodities which, in form B, figure as particular equivalents of the linen, and, in form C, express in common their relative values in linen, this foremost place has been attained by one in particular – namely, gold. If, then, in form C we replace the linen by gold, we get,

In passing from form A to form B, and from the latter to form C, the changes are fundamental. On the other hand, there is no difference between forms C and D, except that, in the latter, gold has assumed the equivalent form in the place of linen. Gold is in form D, what linen was in form C – the universal equivalent. The progress consists in this alone, that the character of direct and universal exchangeability – in other words, that the universal equivalent form – has now, by social custom, become finally identified with the substance, gold.



In terms of the algebraic structure of value, the money form is a particular instance of the general form of value - namely when a privileged representative has emerged which takes on all the social functions of the universal equivalent. IE, expressions of value are now expressions in terms of a particular commodity - the money commodity - and the customs of value expression have become associated with that commodity.

Gold is now money with reference to all other commodities only because it was previously, with reference to them, a simple commodity. Like all other commodities, it was also capable of serving as an equivalent, either as simple equivalent in isolated exchanges, or as particular equivalent by the side of others. Gradually it began to serve, within varying limits, as universal equivalent. So soon as it monopolises this position in the expression of value for the world of commodities, it becomes the money commodity, and then, and not till then, does form D become distinct from form C, and the general form of value become changed into the money form.


This transforms the nature of the commodity which functions as money, it becomes the lubricant of exchange and the unit of value expression.

The difficulty in forming a concept of the money form, consists in clearly comprehending the universal equivalent form, and as a necessary corollary, the general form of value, form C. The latter is deducible from form B, the expanded form of value, the essential component element of which, we saw, is form A, 20 yards of linen = 1 coat or x commodity A = y commodity B. The simple commodity form is therefore the germ of the money form.


At this point, when the social customs of valuation have concentrated around a particular commodity: the money commodity, the expression of the value of a commodity in terms of that money commodity is called the price form. This grounds the possibility of the usual functions of money -a medium of exchange (the regulator of the social customs of exchange; goods and services for money or money for goods and services) a measure of value (expression of one commodity's value in the money commodity), a standard of price (the ascription of a unit to every valuation facilitating calculations and transformations of relative price magnitudes) and a store of value (any pile of commodities is equivalent to a pile of gold).

fdrake December 08, 2018 at 11:28 #234800
Last section: The Fetishism of Commodities and the Secret Thereof

A commodity appears, at first sight, a very trivial thing, and easily understood. Its analysis shows that it is, in reality, a very queer thing, abounding in metaphysical subtleties and theological niceties. So far as it is a value in use, there is nothing mysterious about it, whether we consider it from the point of view that by its properties it is capable of satisfying human wants, or from the point that those properties are the product of human labour. It is as clear as noon-day, that man, by his industry, changes the forms of the materials furnished by Nature, in such a way as to make them useful to him. The form of wood, for instance, is altered, by making a table out of it. Yet, for all that, the table continues to be that common, every-day thing, wood. But, so soon as it steps forth as a commodity, it is changed into something transcendent. It not only stands with its feet on the ground, but, in relation to all other commodities, it stands on its head, and evolves out of its wooden brain grotesque ideas, far more wonderful than “table-turning” ever was. [26a]


Whatever the fetishism of commodities is, it can't be characterised by analysing use value alone. Rather, the fetishism of commodities arises when the social conditions of production and exchange are configured through exchange values; that is, there is a market of produced goods exchangeable for money and produced for profit.

The mystical character of commodities does not originate, therefore, in their use value. Just as little does it proceed from the nature of the determining factors of value. For, in the first place, however varied the useful kinds of labour, or productive activities, may be, it is a physiological fact, that they are functions of the human organism, and that each such function, whatever may be its nature or form, is essentially the expenditure of human brain, nerves, muscles, &c. Secondly, with regard to that which forms the ground-work for the quantitative determination of value, namely, the duration of that expenditure, or the quantity of labour, it is quite clear that there is a palpable difference between its quantity and quality. In all states of society, the labour time that it costs to produce the means of subsistence, must necessarily be an object of interest to mankind, though not of equal interest in different stages of development.[27] And lastly, from the moment that men in any way work for one another, their labour assumes a social form.


The fetishism thus arises from the configuration of effortful time expenditure in capitalist production; that is, when productive labour is characterised as social labour; which is value creative. This is another of those moves Marx makes to transform questions about the relationships of commodities into questions about the configuration of labour which created them. Unsurprisingly, then, beginning the analysis with an indication that fetishism (still not defined) arises out of social structures underpinning exchange value ultimately leads to situating fetishism in the very relations between labour and produced goods; and moreover their dual notions of human labour in the abstract/social labour and goods produced to realise value - for profit. So...

Whence, then, arises the enigmatical character of the product of labour, so soon as it assumes the form of commodities? Clearly from this form itself. The equality of all sorts of human labour is expressed objectively by their products all being equally values; the measure of the expenditure of labour power by the duration of that expenditure, takes the form of the quantity of value of the products of labour; and finally the mutual relations of the producers, within which the social character of their labour affirms itself, take the form of a social relation between the products.


when economic life seen through the prism of value, the goods produced obtain social relations concerning them. Which is a strange distortion, a necessary elision of the specificity of work when the value produced matters more than the good which bears its stamp. The fetishism here is quite commonplace and intuitive to us - if we consider pricing a good which will be sold for profit, it will be assembled from other goods with their own prices, there are assembly prices for all goods involved; in this manner the social configuration of labour which produces a good is seen as a supply chain within a logistical framework, rather than as a product of disciplined labour. The depoliticisation of economic concerns has its roots in commodity fetishism; as commodity fetishism is the elision of the specificities of human labour in production and the concurrent framing of production in terms of good-good, value-good or value-value relations.

The formulae C-M-C' and M-C-M' developed in the next chapter thus indicate the social coordination of exchange and profit through the value relations of commodities, rather than the social relations of their producers, purchasers and investors. Of course, such social relations do play into the real economy as prices are negotiated and calculated by humans and not the commodities themselves. The most bizarre feature of this is that good-good, value-value and good-value relations obtain real causal efficacy and are granted such in our conceptions of the economy, despite that the material constituents (use values) of goods are developed by human agents and their exchange values are negotiated by humans. That 'the market' is seen as a self regulating system of purchases and production is an extreme exemplification of this equation of humanity with capitalist economic activity. We are the selves that regulate the market, but are thus the market itself.




fdrake December 09, 2018 at 21:20 #235316
A commodity is therefore a mysterious thing, simply because in it the social character of men’s labour appears to them as an objective character stamped upon the product of that labour; because the relation of the producers to the sum total of their own labour is presented to them as a social relation, existing not between themselves, but between the products of their labour.


The social character of labour being the production of goods which satisfy needs for sale; then the magnitude of value, arising from the relationship of productive labours, is stamped onto the commodity as the capacity for price. Another way of putting it is that value-value relations obtain between commodities rather than the labours which produce them - and good-good relations are mediated by value. Marx condenses this in passing to form a tighter characterisation of commodity fetishism:


This is the reason why the products of labour become commodities, social things whose qualities are at the same time perceptible and imperceptible by the senses. In the same way the light from an object is perceived by us not as the subjective excitation of our optic nerve, but as the objective form of something outside the eye itself. But, in the act of seeing, there is at all events, an actual passage of light from one thing to another, from the external object to the eye. There is a physical relation between physical things. But it is different with commodities. There, the existence of the things quâ commodities, and the value relation between the products of labour which stamps them as commodities, have absolutely no connection with their physical properties and with the material relations arising therefrom. There it is a definite social relation between men, that assumes, in their eyes, the fantastic form of a relation between things. In order, therefore, to find an analogy, we must have recourse to the mist-enveloped regions of the religious world. In that world the productions of the human brain appear as independent beings endowed with life, and entering into relation both with one another and the human race. So it is in the world of commodities with the products of men’s hands. This I call the Fetishism which attaches itself to the products of labour, so soon as they are produced as commodities, and which is therefore inseparable from the production of commodities.


From the bolding, commodity fetishism is when the economic relationships between people become the value (or monetary) relationships between things. The sense of this 'become' is important to attend to, as Marx sees it as a necessary feature of commodity production:

This I call the Fetishism which attaches itself to the products of labour, so soon as they are produced as commodities, and which is therefore inseparable from the production of commodities.


The inseparability arises from that goods are produced for exchange, and in order to enter into exchange the good must relate to all other goods in some manner to ground its value relations; in this manner the relationships between goods which fix their relative values (and monetary expressions), despite being nothing more than the result of an aggregate of negotiations of prices and constraints of production - of human labour and its social form -, are treated as relationships between the produced items - of human labour congealed into the commodity as value -. The concrete acts of production's subordination to abstract labour occurs due to the exchange relations and their underlying value relations between commodities. In order for these relationships to be subordinated to commodity-commodity relationships, labour must be differentiated under a social division of labour which isolates expenditures of labour power through the goal of producing different commodities. IE, the social division of labour is just as necessary as the emphasis of value over use value in producing commodity fetishism. As previously suggested, a social division of labour coordinated through value production is a necessary companion of the production of commodities, and from above suffices to produce the fetishism of commodities. Thus, commodity fetishism is more than simply a widely held mental state, it is a necessary expression of a social division of labour mediated through commodity production; which is ultimately the production of value. While it influences how we think about capitalist production, that influence is an internal moment of the social structures supporting capitalist production.

I view it as no coincidence that Marx's discussion of commodity fetishism culminates his initial discussion of value theory and immediately precedes the discussion of commodity circulation. Commodity fetishism's explanatory role here is why capitalism appears firstly as 'an accumulation of commodities' and then, only under analysis, finds that such an accumulation requires a specific organisation of social and economic life to occur. Moreover, the social relationships between people finding expression in the value relation of things sets up the discussion of the circulation of commodities and money; Marx's emphasis on labour utilises commodity fetishism in reverse to summarise features of capitalist production through commodity relationships; which then can be unpacked into their grounding constraints on production.

M-C-M' and C-M-C' are more informative than people-people-people-people-people precisely because of their leverage of the idea of commodity fetishism.


unenlightened December 10, 2018 at 10:27 #235460
I'm struggling a bit here. Is this a preparation for an explanation of why footballers are rich and nurses are poor, despite the former being useless and the latter vital? Hopefully the next chapter will illuminate.
fdrake December 10, 2018 at 19:53 #235542
Reply to unenlightened

I don't think you'll find that in Capital unfortunately.
fdrake December 11, 2018 at 21:35 #236068
A general note on Marx's methodology first, after exhibiting the underlying structures of value, its relationship to labour, and the various forms in which value expresses itself, he takes his previous exegesis and sews it in the place of his original target of analysis; commodity production and exchange. I've put this previously as using his account of commodity fetishism in reverse; taking the mode of appearance of socioeconomic reality and analysing its structure (the account so far, including of commodity fetishism), he then pivots on this revealed structure and embeds it in the mode of appearance of socioeconomic reality.

A reasonable analogy here might be in terms of modular programming. You have a big task to do, you break it up into little components which are easier to solve, solve the components and substitute the solved components into the overall logic linking them. The overall logic linking them in my analogy is the structure of commodity production and value in capitalism (the topic of chapter 1), the components here are the duality of use and exchange, the consequences of this duality in terms of the social structure of labour, the distinction between abstract and concrete labour, the value forms and commodity fetishism (the broad subtopics the chapter deals with); all of these subtopics are 'passed' to the overall logic of the account and will be referenced as modules to be called upon later in the book, and checked for required modifications.

The subsequent account these modules and logic facilitate is that of the circulation of commodities and money; setting out the semantics for x is worth y in terms of the value forms, use and exchange, labour power and abstract labour, interface with agents in exchange networks as different facets of the process. For the workers, C-M-C', the expenditure of labour power in the production of a commodity becomes codified in the relationship between a labourer and their place of work - as a wage labourer. Providing the semantics for labour as a commodity in C. Exchange of (supposed) equivalents then forms the semantics for the transition from C-M (it is an act of exchange, being payed for your work) and from M-C (an act of exchange, using wages to buy goods and services).

The top down perspective, from exchange to labour, becomes codified in the moments M-C-M', the dashes are given a meaning through Marx's account of exchange and the value forms, and starting from M rather than C is viewing the perspective from the acquisition of labour (ownership!) rather than its expenditure.

So, with that note on broader context and methodology out of the way...

Marx characterises commodity fetishism from a slightly different angle next, from the perspective of the constitutive producers of commodities rather than top down from exchange. From the next paragraph we get the often quoted 'material relations between persons become social relations between things'. He also re-emphasises the necessity of the social division of labour in producing commodity fetishism, and gives a brief characterisation of how the social division of labour actually facilitates commodity fetishism.

As a general rule, articles of utility become commodities, only because they are products of the labour of private individuals or groups of individuals who carry on their work independently of each other. The sum total of the labour of all these private individuals forms the aggregate labour of society. Since the producers do not come into social contact with each other until they exchange their products, the specific social character of each producer’s labour does not show itself except in the act of exchange. In other words, the labour of the individual asserts itself as a part of the labour of society, only by means of the relations which the act of exchange establishes directly between the products, and indirectly, through them, between the producers. To the latter, therefore, the relations connecting the labour of one individual with that of the rest appear, not as direct social relations between individuals at work, but as what they really are, material relations between persons and social relations between things.


The first sentence, 'as a general rule... other' summarises the previous developments of the section, commodities are useful goods that are produced for exchange', and it is because they are produced for exchange that 'the private individuals' who work on them encounter others' labour as their resultant goods rather than the workers who are producing them. This also uses the previous established idea that production for exchange levels all commodities to the structure of their value alone without their material constitution - as Marx puts it (with my comments in brackets) 'the specific (concretely useful) social character of each producer’s labour does not show itself except in the act of exchange (as raw social labour)'.

One way of summarising the economic relationships between groups of commodity producers is that they only encounter the product of other groups' labour in terms of the finished product in the market. Commodity fetishism, then, is the peculiarity that the only social engagement producers have with other groups of producers, vis-a-vis production, is place the product has in a shop.

This is also echoed in C-M-C' as the facets of circulation that wage labourers have access to are their own labour power (the original C) and the goods and services they buy with it (C'). IE, workers are isolated from each other through the exchange abstraction, and only meet as the commodities they produced being held on a shelf.

So, despite Marx's characterisation of commodity fetishism as mysterious, and as a 'theological subtlety', it's nevertheless a real part of capitalist production. For Marx, it really is the case that workers from different factories only encounter different worker groups' labour through the market. That is, commodity fetishism is (again) not simply a psychological state of over-emphasis on commodities or arbitrary desire for useless tat, it has the specific meaning of social relationships between worker groups being mediated by exchange - through the market.

Marx then takes a step back and relates commodity fetishism to the more central feature that commodity production is capitalism is structured to create value rather than satisfy needs (exchange value vs use value):

It is only by being exchanged that the products of labour acquire, as values, one uniform social status, distinct from their varied forms of existence as objects of utility. This division of a product into a useful thing and a value becomes practically important, only when exchange has acquired such an extension that useful articles are produced for the purpose of being exchanged, and their character as values has therefore to be taken into account, beforehand, during production. From this moment the labour of the individual producer acquires socially a two-fold character. On the one hand, it must, as a definite useful kind of labour, satisfy a definite social want, and thus hold its place as part and parcel of the collective labour of all, as a branch of a social division of labour that has sprung up spontaneously. On the other hand, it can satisfy the manifold wants of the individual producer himself, only in so far as the mutual exchangeability of all kinds of useful private labour is an established social fact, and therefore the private useful labour of each producer ranks on an equality with that of all others. The equalisation of the most different kinds of labour can be the result only of an abstraction from their inequalities, or of reducing them to their common denominator, viz. expenditure of human labour power or human labour in the abstract.


Again, this makes sense as a remark which attempts to frame workers' economic relationships with each other on a produced good to produced good basis (material relations between people turn into social relations between things), only now it emphasises the role that the notion of universal equivalent (money) plays in the satisfaction of want. The genericness of C-M-C' only makes sense if indeed there is a universal equivalent M which workers can use to satisfy their wants and needs (C') and that commodities are produced which satisfy those wants and needs (social division of labour).

The two-fold social character of the labour of the individual appears to him, when reflected in his brain, only under those forms which are impressed upon that labour in every-day practice by the exchange of products. In this way, the character that his own labour possesses of being socially useful takes the form of the condition, that the product must be not only useful, but useful for others, and the social character that his particular labour has of being the equal of all other particular kinds of labour, takes the form that all the physically different articles that are the products of labour, have one common quality, viz., that of having value.


This bit links commodity fetishism to the theme of alienation, not broached yet in the book. The link here is 'In this way, the character that his own labour possesses of being socially useful... takes the form of condition...of having value', the economic role that a worker's skills play is only the value which is created through their application and the exchange value of their labour power (their wage). The only way you matter is your productivity, not the skill which makes your productivity possible, or the social roles your skills could facilitate.
fdrake December 12, 2018 at 21:31 #236486
Marx continues, reading the fetishism of commodities further back towards the foundations of his analysis; the distinction between abstract and concrete labour and the social division of labour which comes along with this.

Hence, when we bring the products of our labour into relation with each other as values, it is not because we see in these articles the material receptacles of homogeneous human labour. Quite the contrary: whenever, by an exchange, we equate as values our different products, by that very act, we also equate, as human labour, the different kinds of labour expended upon them. We are not aware of this, nevertheless we do it.[28] Value, therefore, does not stalk about with a label describing what it is. It is value, rather, that converts every product into a social hieroglyphic. Later on, we try to decipher the hieroglyphic, to get behind the secret of our own social products; for to stamp an object of utility as a value, is just as much a social product as language. The recent scientific discovery, that the products of labour, so far as they are values, are but material expressions of the human labour spent in their production, marks, indeed, an epoch in the history of the development of the human race, but, by no means, dissipates the mist through which the social character of labour appears to us to be an objective character of the products themselves. The fact, that in the particular form of production with which we are dealing, viz., the production of commodities, the [b]specific social character of private labour carried on independently, consists in the equality of every kind of that labour, by virtue of its being human labour, which character, therefore, assumes in the product the form of value – this fact appears to the producers, notwithstanding the discovery above referred to, to be just as real and final, as the fact, that, after the discovery by science of the component gases of air, the atmosphere itself remained unaltered.


A lot of this is a restatement of the previous analysis of commodity fetishism, but interpreted into the relationship between abstract and concrete labour. Such a relationship is accompanied by a form of value, of which Marx has already characterised, and a social coordination of labour - independent production of commodities for profit. But I think the special emphasis in this part is on the mediating role value plays in economic and social life.

Value, therefore, does not stalk about with a label describing what it is. It is value, rather, that converts every product into a social hieroglyphic.


We can only imagine the complexities hidden under the decisions to price commodities for sale. The specific price obtained must weigh the costs accrued in the supply chain, the logistic efficiency and its costs, forecasted demand, how much purchasers are willing to spend, a weighing of required profit margins per unit sold and the affordability of those units. Not to speak of competitors selling competing goods, forecasted revenue from advertising, efficiency gains from outsourcing... Or of the concrete labour done by those who produce these goods in the first place. While we may disagree with Marx on his account of value, it seems to me difficult to disagree that labourers who produce commodities for the most part interact with economic life only through the their value productivity - of the costs of labour versus the profits of sale. In this manner, the price tag on a good in a supermarket represents a catastrophic condensation of human life into, first, the economic analysis of price, and then finally into a single number.

Psychological interventions are often scored on operationalised scales, how sad do you feel on a scale of 1 to 10? These are rightly seen as quite ridiculous, and at least are a terribly lossy representation of mood, not to speak of how feelings relate to lifestyles. One wants to say a single number should not bear such a burden of complexity - that we can say the same for prices is an indication that commodity fetishism is actually operative in our lives.

Though, the opacity of the conditions which produce every good has become a talking point in recent years, through the problematisation of climate change and pollution accrued to put an item on a shelf, and of ethical ('fair trade') which allows the creation of premium goods through the transparency of their supply chain. All facilitated of course through the evocation of moral consumption by advertising campaigns. Which goes to show, even the formal structure of commodity fetishism can be repurposed for the creation of revenue.

Still, for the most part the price is all we see.
fdrake December 20, 2018 at 05:41 #238990
There are two notes in the next paragraph, the first analyses the relationship of socially necessary labour time (SNLT) to commodity fetishism, the second is an update of the concept of SNLT in the light of a (slightly) more realistic depiction of exchange.

What, first of all, practically concerns producers when they make an exchange, is the question, how much of some other product they get for their own? In what proportions the products are exchangeable? When these proportions have, by custom, attained a certain stability, they appear to result from the nature of the products, so that, for instance, one ton of iron and two ounces of gold appear as naturally to be of equal value as a pound of gold and a pound of iron in spite of their different physical and chemical qualities appear to be of equal weight. The character of having value, when once impressed upon products, obtains fixity only by reason of their acting and re-acting upon each other as quantities of value. These quantities vary continually, independently of the will, foresight and action of the producers. To them, their own social action takes the form of the action of objects, which rule the producers instead of being ruled by them. It requires a fully developed production of commodities before, from accumulated experience alone, the scientific conviction springs up, that all the different kinds of private labour, which are carried on independently of each other, and yet as spontaneously developed branches of the social division of labour, are continually being reduced to the quantitative proportions in which society requires them. And why? Because, in the midst of all the accidental and ever fluctuating exchange relations between the products, the labour time socially necessary for their production forcibly asserts itself like an over-riding law of Nature. The law of gravity thus asserts itself when a house falls about our ears.[29] The determination of the magnitude of value by labour time is therefore a secret, hidden under the apparent fluctuations in the relative values of commodities. Its discovery, while removing all appearance of mere accidentality from the determination of the magnitude of the values of products, yet in no way alters the mode in which that determination takes place.


The first part situates value in the context of exchange, aiming at exhibiting how value clings to commodities so tightly it has been interpreted as a material innate/internal property rather than a socially constructed external/emergent one. The mechanism which does this must 'fix' values relative to each other in a total fashion, so that upon encountering an arbitrary good in the act of exchange we treat it as if its value is an innate property of the good rather than in terms of its social construction.

The idea here is that value determinations must act upon each other in a good-good fashion, internalising commodity fetishism as a procedural component of capitalist production. What is required is an account of how agent-agent relations of politically mediated producers take on the character of good-good relations of market values. In other words, values come to relate to each other as magnitudes over and above their structure of abstract labour; material relations of people become social relations between things.

What sets the ball rolling in the account are aggregate properties of labour fixing SNLT, but this is only an initial impetus of value dynamics in the market - the market in reality is reflexive, it perpetually reacts to itself and not just the structure of labour which underpins it...

The character of having value, when once impressed upon products, obtains fixity only by reason of their acting and re-acting upon each other as quantities of value.


which changes the account of socially necessary labour times determinately fixing prices;

Because, in the midst of all the accidental and ever fluctuating exchange relations between the products, the labour time socially necessary for their production forcibly asserts itself like an over-riding law of Nature.


now, rather, fluctuations in relative value occur around the socially necessary labour time; relative values - what was once a deterministic output of a regime of production, are now a regulator of a stochastic process of relative value fixing. In essence, the socially necessary labour times make commodity values (as stochastic processes) float around their value magnitude obtained deterministically from the structure of labour. SNLC no longer operates in a manner of strict conversion of quantities from time to value (which Marx explained using raw proportions), is now an attractor for values induced by the social structure of labour.

Marx has employed the Aristotelian dichotomy between essence and accident - the essence of value magnitude is socially necessary labour time, the accidents are market fluctuations in relative value. This invites considering this essence as expectation (mean) and accident as variance of the stochastic process of values.

This reflexivity, coming about by the fact that value relations are grounded in labour relations, makes the market appear as a system independent of labour:

To them, their own social action takes the form of the action of objects, which rule the producers instead of being ruled by them


and moreover as independent from the decisions of agents. I touched on this in the last post, so I won't go into more detail here. Marx is also using fetishism to take potshots at other economists, but I don't think (their alleged) mystification by commodity fetishism matters much for my exhibition here.









fdrake December 20, 2018 at 11:09 #239028
Marx continues on this theme of the reflexivity of the market (more precisely the reflexivity of value relations) and attempts to tease out how this reflexivity annihilates the political and historical character of our economic relations. A typical 'moment' in economic life is an encounter with a commodity (even if it's exchanging one for money), and this renders the interaction of agents which produced that commodity opaque. Rather, then, the capacity for having a value gets aligned with market fluctuations; and the relation of supply and demand of pre-established commodities get equated with its monetary expression.

Man’s reflections on the forms of social life, and consequently, also, his scientific analysis of those forms, take a course directly opposite to that of their actual historical development. He begins, post festum (after the fact), with the results of the process of development ready to hand before him. The characters that stamp products as commodities, and whose establishment is a necessary preliminary to the circulation of commodities, have already acquired the stability of natural, self-understood forms of social life, before man seeks to decipher, not their historical character, for in his eyes they are immutable, but their meaning.


As CEO Nwabudike Morgan from Alpha Centauri puts it (from the bourgeoise immutable self regulating system perspective):

Our first challenge is to create an entire economic infrastructure, from top to bottom, out of whole cloth. No gradual evolution from previous economic systems is possible, because there is no previous economic system. Each interdependent piece must be materialized simultaneously and in perfect working order; otherwise the system will crash out before it ever gets off the ground.


Now, Marx begins to transition from discussing SNLT as a mediating feature of value to phrasing things in terms of money itself; a physical expression of value.

Consequently it was the analysis of the prices of commodities that alone led to the determination of the magnitude of value, and it was the common expression of all commodities in money that alone led to the establishment of their characters as values. It is, however, just this ultimate money form of the world of commodities that actually conceals, instead of disclosing, the social character of private labour, and the social relations between the individual producers. When I state that coats or boots stand in a relation to linen, because it is the universal incarnation of abstract human labour, the absurdity of the statement is self-evident. Nevertheless, when the producers of coats and boots compare those articles with linen, or, what is the same thing, with gold or silver, as the universal equivalent, they express the relation between their own private labour and the collective labour of society in the same absurd form.


It is the actual use of money as a universal equivalent which sets up this cyclical/reflexive annihilation of politics and agency from the market. So long as money works as it does we will end up with commodity fetishism; we end up entering the social relations we have with the producers of our needed goods solely through their resultant products.

The absurdity Marx notes here is that commodities really do behave in this fetishised manner; the price of a commodity is simultaneously derived from the aggregate of labour conditions but hides those conditions by coalescing them in a priced object. It is as if 'the kidney' was an organ of the body, or 'the animal' walked among animals. In using money we are influenced by the global conditions of production, the whole world is in every commodity, but precisely because of that we cannot see it.
unenlightened December 20, 2018 at 15:24 #239112
That last paragraph actually made me understand something about 'fetishisation' at last. Cheers!
fdrake December 20, 2018 at 18:47 #239177
Reply to unenlightened

I'm surprised you've continued reading the section on fetishism if my explanations are that bad!
fdrake December 24, 2018 at 22:44 #240314
Christmas is busier than I thought it would be.

It's worthwhile to linger here for a bit to gather the various uses Marx is making out of commodity fetishism, and how that relates to the maxim 'the material relations between people become social relations between things'.

Firstly, we have that labourers typically only influence labourers in general through the commodities they produce (or the services they give). In this way, the social division of labour leads to a political division of production. Economic life for the labourer typically will not include economic negotiations between them and labourers in different places of work, this is done by the wage payers rather than the wage workers. So, workers in one workplace typically relate to workers in different workplaces only through the use of workplace services. As a corollary, the political agency of people in determining their own conditions of work and influencing workplaces is diminished relative to their wage payers, whose job it is (partially) to make those negotiations. Labourers stand in relation to value and exchange as producers rather than coordinators. The material relations of people = the sphere of relevant economic events to their lives, the social relations of things - exchanging money for goods and services.

Secondly, we have the 'universal equivalent' - money - acting as a unified medium for the relationships of labourers. Everyone needs access to money to satisfy their wants and needs, and we have access to goods whose prices (values) embody their production - so that the material objects (goods, use values) are made parasitic upon their production for profit (money, exchange values). The logic of the universal equivalent is that it summarises all things relevant to the ascription of price through the value that becomes attached to a product, but as soon as that attachment occurs and the commodity is for sale, the deliberations and political events which gave rise to its price become altogether inaccessible epistemically (without independent effort to produce transparency).

Thirdly, we have the first two parts (previous 2 paragraphs in this post) in tandem casting shadows on intellectual analysis of capitalism. From the first part; all the political and historical specificity gets drained out of commodity production, they become numbers related to other numbers as far as the economy is concerned. Every externality, like starvation, freezing to death, shelter, is 'external' to the conceptualisation of the market, and the social costs become addressable only through coordinated patterns of investment; a more extreme version of this error is treating capitalism itself as a necessary material/natural thing rather than a contingent/historical social organisation. From the second part; the relations between people that give rise to prices are secreted away within the commodity. This can introduce two linked errors, one is that it is easy to make the conceptual leap from the materiality of a commodity (its use value; its capacities for desire satisfaction) directly to its prices (through calculations of supply and demand), without the analysis of where value (the capacity to be bought and sold) comes from conceptually and historically. Secondly, the withdrawal of the world which influenced the ascription of a price to its commodity is highly suggestive of the removal of political agency from forming prices. If we start from social relations between things, it will appear all the economy's constitutive social relations are relations between things (insofar as we're talking about the economy). So we assume too much unanalysed context, posing our inquiry badly. Marx discusses these errors in terms of Robinson Crusoe later in the chapter.

The material relations of people - acts of valuation and production which give commodities their price, physical characteristics and social roles - become social relations between things - mediated by valuation, or directed towards price/profit production.

The categories of bourgeois economy consist of such like forms. They are forms of thought expressing with social validity the conditions and relations of a definite, historically determined mode of production, viz., the production of commodities. The whole mystery of commodities, all the magic and necromancy that surrounds the products of labour as long as they take the form of commodities, vanishes therefore, so soon as we come to other forms of production.


Marx is emphasising the historical specificity of capitalism, rather than treating it as a necessary social formation. Other than that, this is a preparatory remark whose themes I broadly covered above.
fdrake December 25, 2018 at 21:29 #240448
Marx addresses the 'Robinson Crusoe Economy' here, which has been used as a thought experiment for assessing how value and labour relate. The overall thrust of the argument is (1) to highlight problems in using this thought experiment to analyse capitalist production and exchange relationships and (2) to use commodity fetishism; in the sense of the character of capitalist production being 'hidden in' value; to explain why it's a popular example.

Since Robinson Crusoe’s experiences are a favourite theme with political economists,[30] let us take a look at him on his island. Moderate though he be, yet some few wants he has to satisfy, and must therefore do a little useful work of various sorts, such as making tools and furniture, taming goats, fishing and hunting. Of his prayers and the like we take no account, since they are a source of pleasure to him, and he looks upon them as so much recreation. In spite of the variety of his work, he knows that his labour, whatever its form, is but the activity of one and the same Robinson, and consequently, that it consists of nothing but different modes of human labour. Necessity itself compels him to apportion his time accurately between his different kinds of work. Whether one kind occupies a greater space in his general activity than another, depends on the difficulties, greater or less as the case may be, to be overcome in attaining the useful effect aimed at. This our friend Robinson soon learns by experience, and having rescued a watch, ledger, and pen and ink from the wreck, commences, like a true-born Briton, to keep a set of books. His stock-book contains a list of the objects of utility that belong to him, of the operations necessary for their production; and lastly, of the labour time that definite quantities of those objects have, on an average, cost him. All the relations between Robinson and the objects that form this wealth of his own creation, are here so simple and clear as to be intelligible without exertion, even to Mr. Sedley Taylor. And yet those relations contain all that is essential to the determination of value.


The thing to notice is that Marx highlights that the division of labour works a lot differently in Crusoe's island. Instead of having groups of people producing different things to be put on the market and later bought with currency when they satisfy a need/want, Robinson Crusoe apportions his time directly to satisfy his needs and wants. Keeping a ledger of how long it takes him to do certain things really adds very little to this 'one person economy', as there is no notion of exchange to buttress the formation of capitalist value forms. Moreover, Crusoe is only dependent upon himself for the satisfaction of his wants/needs; this also means that his labour is not social - it does not relate to a grander system of wants and needs over and above the requirements of Mr Crusoe. Nor is it social in the capitalist sense as it is not value productive (profit-motivated).

Let us now transport ourselves from Robinson’s island bathed in light to the European middle ages shrouded in darkness. Here, instead of the independent man, we find everyone dependent, serfs and lords, vassals and suzerains, laymen and clergy. Personal dependence here characterises the social relations of production just as much as it does the other spheres of life organised on the basis of that production. But for the very reason that personal dependence forms the ground-work of society, there is no necessity for labour and its products to assume a fantastic form different from their reality. They take the shape, in the transactions of society, of services in kind and payments in kind. Here the particular and natural form of labour, and not, as in a society based on production of commodities, its general abstract form is the immediate social form of labour. Compulsory labour is just as properly measured by time, as commodity-producing labour; but every serf knows that what he expends in the service of his lord, is a definite quantity of his own personal labour power. The tithe to be rendered to the priest is more matter of fact than his blessing. No matter, then, what we may think of the parts played by the different classes of people themselves in this society, the social relations between individuals in the performance of their labour, appear at all events as their own mutual personal relations, and are not disguised under the shape of social relations between the products of labour.


Marx moves onto a brief characterisation of European middle ages economies. The distinction he draws between this and capitalist ones is that the interdependence of people's labour takes the form of overall production for need satisfaction, including elements of barter without regulating value. This characterises the European middle age economy as an interdependent network of concrete labour and incidental acts of exchange done by human agents unmediated by a well developed exchange system, where money takes a secondary role to labour and has no 'mystical' fetish character. Emphasising the presence of concrete labour without its capitalist dual (abstract labour), Marx continues:

For an example of labour in common or directly associated labour, we have no occasion to go back to that spontaneously developed form which we find on the threshold of the history of all civilised races.[31] We have one close at hand in the patriarchal industries of a peasant family, that produces corn, cattle, yarn, linen, and clothing for home use. These different articles are, as regards the family, so many products of its labour, but as between themselves, they are not commodities. The different kinds of labour, such as tillage, cattle tending, spinning, weaving and making clothes, which result in the various products, are in themselves, and such as they are, direct social functions, because functions of the family, which, just as much as a society based on the production of commodities, possesses a spontaneously developed system of division of labour. The distribution of the work within the family, and the regulation of the labour time of the several members, depend as well upon differences of age and sex as upon natural conditions varying with the seasons. The labour power of each individual, by its very nature, operates in this case merely as a definite portion of the whole labour power of the family, and therefore, the measure of the expenditure of individual labour power by its duration, appears here by its very nature as a social character of their labour.


the social character of labour is indexed to localised social interactions; like family units; and 'abstract labour' in the capitalist sense Marx exhibited earlier is not part of work. As he says, the articles produced are not commodities - not because they do not have use, but because they do not have exchange value and its derivative abstractions.







fdrake December 26, 2018 at 19:11 #240654
Marx moves on to considering a freely associating group of producers whose production aims to satisfy collective need, and their share of the distribution of goods is proportionate with that need.

Let us now picture to ourselves, by way of change, a community of free individuals, carrying on their work with the means of production in common, in which the labour power of all the different individuals is consciously applied as the combined labour power of the community. All the characteristics of Robinson’s labour are here repeated, but with this difference, that they are social, instead of individual. Everything produced by him was exclusively the result of his own personal labour, and therefore simply an object of use for himself. The total product of our community is a social product. One portion serves as fresh means of production and remains social. But another portion is consumed by the members as means of subsistence. A distribution of this portion amongst them is consequently necessary. The mode of this distribution will vary with the productive organisation of the community, and the degree of historical development attained by the producers. We will assume, but merely for the sake of a parallel with the production of commodities, that the share of each individual producer in the means of subsistence is determined by his labour time. Labour time would, in that case, play a double part. Its apportionment in accordance with a definite social plan maintains the proper proportion between the different kinds of work to be done and the various wants of the community. On the other hand, it also serves as a measure of the portion of the common labour borne by each individual, and of his share in the part of the total product destined for individual consumption. The social relations of the individual producers, with regard both to their labour and to its products, are in this case perfectly simple and intelligible, and that with regard not only to production but also to distribution.


While this is a rather twee picture, it is quite relevant. Freely associating individuals, that is, individuals which choose their work partners and acquaintances, being apportioned produce in relation to how hard they work... Looks a lot like the ideology we heard from free market libertarians. The idea that people choose their workplace and what that entails, and people take part in the coordination of the total social product through purchase, is an extremely distorted conception of working life under capitalism. The distortion arises by assuming individuals as free associators attempting to produce for their needs directly rather than through the medium of value/monetary exchange and commodity production. The division of labour looks more like a spontaneous development of politically independent agents rather than a historically influenced matching of worker competence/availability considerations/requirements to a job; it makes it appear that workers have dominion over their own workplaces and workplace policy, rather than needing to organise independently of their managerial staff to obtain some modicum of influence. Each person as a Robinson Crusoe removes all the relevant social texture that makes capitalism capitalism.

Edit: Just to draw out an implication here: Marx does not see the above quote as a good description of capitalism, by way of contrast the description has: worker control of total production, worker control of association, payment in proportion to need and payment in proportion to effort. By structural symmetry then, Marx sees that the worker under capitalism has limited control of total production, limited control of association, reward in disproportion to need and reward in disproportion to effort. It is as if the economy runs people.

Edit2: Another implication, Marx sees that removing the value abstraction also removes commodity fetishism. People's interactions need to be mediated by the market for commodity fetishism to take hold, and free association does not have this mediation.

fdrake December 27, 2018 at 22:35 #241099
Marx takes a tangent next, relating religious belief to capitalism. Specifically, he diagnoses that religions which have a structural symmetry with the metaphysics of capital he's developed; the forms with a universal equivalent and resultant commodity fetishism; have their styles of belief promoted. Beginning:

The religious world is but the reflex of the real world.


Which is quite a bold assertion, but it is likely that Marx believes it is justified by the preceding stages of argument about commodity fetishism. So we can expect Marx to analogise some 'moving parts' of his brief analysis of religion to his analysis of value. The statement alone, however, characterises religions as reactive to the conditions of life in which they develop - taking an anthropological or descriptive stance towards them rather than a theological one. Marx elaborates:

And for a society based upon the production of commodities, in which the producers in general enter into social relations with one another by treating their products as commodities and values, whereby they reduce their individual private labour to the standard of homogeneous human labour – for such a society, Christianity with its cultus of abstract man, more especially in its bourgeois developments, Protestantism, Deism, &c., is the most fitting form of religion.


which draws the prefigured analogy between concrete labour being a bearer of abstract labour, and money's reifying power towards the social relations underlying its function. To borrow from Discworld cosmology, Marx probably sees Christian God(s) as anthropomorphic personifications of humanity itself. To arrive at a God, strip away all the base and fleshy worldliness of our bodies and wants, and in doing so eviscerate humanity to a ghostly form. Attribute the material and social relations which we value, what finally remains of a human when all their bodily organs and social necessities are removed, to the attitudes and attributes of a God. This is quite similar to the removal of all specificity of work when a product enters exchange; the transition from concrete to abstract labour. To repurpose Hamlet:

What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god!


we should not be surprised to find Gods who exonerate the good in man, as they are embodiments of that good seen in reverse. It has been said that morality flows from God, more accurately God flows from humanity.

More importantly, though, what this comment emphasises is a materialist view of religion; religions as a social construct with an internal logic that adapts itself to the conditions of life surrounding it. For an example, Franciscan monks still take a vow of poverty, but now that vow of poverty allows computer access - even the monasteries need PR.

Marx continues his elaboration on the theme of the reactivity of religion, drilling down to its core:

In the ancient Asiatic and other ancient modes of production, we find that the conversion of products into commodities, and therefore the conversion of men into producers of commodities, holds a subordinate place, which, however, increases in importance as the primitive communities approach nearer and nearer to their dissolution. Trading nations, properly so called, exist in the ancient world only in its interstices, like the gods of Epicurus in the Intermundia, or like Jews in the pores of Polish society. Those ancient social organisms of production are, as compared with bourgeois society, extremely simple and transparent. But they are founded either on the immature development of man individually, who has not yet severed the umbilical cord that unites him with his fellowmen in a primitive tribal community, or upon direct relations of subjection. They can arise and exist only when the development of the productive power of labour has not risen beyond a low stage, and when, therefore, the social relations within the sphere of material life, between man and man, and between man and Nature, are correspondingly narrow. This narrowness is reflected in the ancient worship of Nature, and in the other elements of the popular religions. The religious reflex of the real world can, in any case, only then finally vanish, when the practical relations of every-day life offer to man none but perfectly intelligible and reasonable relations with regard to his fellowmen and to Nature.


Religion then is a sign of an immature humanity mystified by its relation to nature and its relations with itself. Mysticism fills the spiritual, explanatory and political gaps in the world. The spiritual void between works and grace reflects the material conditions of the working poor and the workless rich, where works diminish in importance relative to grace as wealth increases. The explanatory hole between the worker and the systems they partially constitute but are constrained by engenders a powerless trust and trust in our own powerlessness; the desolation of shared social life manifests in a faith in the interconnection of everything. The absence of political power the worker has relative to all economic life relevant to their welfare manifests in valuations where a person is judged on their ability to lead a happy life rather than a meaningful one. Faith grows in these holes like scar tissue on our body politic, reconnecting essentially what has only been contingently severed. Only when humanity has mastery of itself and accommodates reasonably to nature will we have no wounds for religion to heal.

fdrake December 27, 2018 at 23:15 #241121
Marx concludes this line of thought on the development of humanity:

The life-process of society, which is based on the process of material production, does not strip off its mystical veil until it is treated as production by freely associated men, and is consciously regulated by them in accordance with a settled plan. This, however, demands for society a certain material ground-work or set of conditions of existence which in their turn are the spontaneous product of a long and painful process of development.


saying that a society which does not have all the above socio-economic-political growing pains will only come out of a similarly painful process of development.

He then concludes the section on commodity fetishism, and Chapter 1, with a discussion of the image of capitalism in economic thought in his time and how that image relates to commodity fetishism. Much of it is minor elaboration and summary.

Political Economy has indeed analysed, however incompletely,[32] value and its magnitude, and has discovered what lies beneath these forms. But it has never once asked the question why labour is represented by the value of its product and labour time by the magnitude of that value.[33] These formulæ, which bear it stamped upon them in unmistakable letters that they belong to a state of society, in which the process of production has the mastery over man, instead of being controlled by him, such formulæ appear to the bourgeois intellect to be as much a self-evident necessity imposed by Nature as productive labour itself. Hence forms of social production that preceded the bourgeois form, are treated by the bourgeoisie in much the same way as the Fathers of the Church treated pre-Christian religions.[34]


The take home message here is that Marx believes it is very common for economists to inappropriately retroject commodities with the social form they have under capitalism into precapitalist modes of production; summarising his analysis of Robinson Crusoe like scenarios.

To what extent some economists are misled by the Fetishism inherent in commodities, or by the objective appearance of the social characteristics of labour, is shown, amongst other ways, by the dull and tedious quarrel over the part played by Nature in the formation of exchange value. Since exchange value is a definite social manner of expressing the amount of labour bestowed upon an object, Nature has no more to do with it, than it has in fixing the course of exchange.


Moreover, Marx believes it is common for economists to believe that exchange value rises out of natural properties of produced goods, rather than out of the relationship of their having utility and only being available through purchase. IE, he thinks that people treat use value and exchange value in an inverted way, use deriving from social custom and exchange deriving from physical property.

The mode of production in which the product takes the form of a commodity, or is produced directly for exchange, is the most general and most embryonic form of bourgeois production. It therefore makes its appearance at an early date in history, though not in the same predominating and characteristic manner as now-a-days. Hence its Fetish character is comparatively easy to be seen through. But when we come to more concrete forms, even this appearance of simplicity vanishes. Whence arose the illusions of the monetary system? To it gold and silver, when serving as money, did not represent a social relation between producers, but were natural objects with strange social properties. And modern economy, which looks down with such disdain on the monetary system, does not its superstition come out as clear as noon-day, whenever it treats of capital? How long is it since economy discarded the physiocratic illusion, that rents grow out of the soil and not out of society?


Marx notes that the value form in capitalism contained its seeds in precapitalist value forms, some of which are analysed. He leaves a question hanging, whether the analysis he's developed so far is really appropriate for the full complexity of observed economic development (spoilers: almost everything here is an oversimplification in some regard).

But not to anticipate, we will content ourselves with yet another example relating to the commodity form. Could commodities themselves speak, they would say: Our use value may be a thing that interests men. It is no part of us as objects. What, however, does belong to us as objects, is our value. Our natural intercourse as commodities proves it. In the eyes of each other we are nothing but exchange values. Now listen how those commodities speak through the mouth of the economist.

“Value” – (i.e., exchange value) “is a property of things, riches” – (i.e., use value) “of man. Value, in this sense, necessarily implies exchanges, riches do not.”[35] “Riches” (use value) “are the attribute of men, value is the attribute of commodities. A man or a community is rich, a pearl or a diamond is valuable...” A pearl or a diamond is valuable as a pearl or a diamond.[36]


From the perspective of commodity-commodity relations, they are mediated by value, so through the 'eyes of the commodity' see only values rather than uses (which are not realised in exchange). From the perspective of the commodity, then, other commodities appear as price stamps alone mediated through exchange, rather than a composite relationship of the market and labour to commodity production and the political structures which facilitate this (like the social division of labour).


So far no chemist has ever discovered exchange value either in a pearl or a diamond. The economic discoverers of this chemical element, who by-the-bye lay special claim to critical acumen, find however that the use value of objects belongs to them independently of their material properties, while their value, on the other hand, forms a part of them as objects. What confirms them in this view, is the peculiar circumstance that the use value of objects is realised without exchange, by means of a direct relation between the objects and man, while, on the other hand, their value is realised only by exchange, that is, by means of a social process. Who fails here to call to mind our good friend, Dogberry, who informs neighbour Seacoal, that, “To be a well-favoured man is the gift of fortune; but reading and writing comes by Nature.”[37]


Marx concludes the section by attempting to show that commodity fetishism invites the inversion of use an exchange as abstractions. Exchange appears natural, use appears incidental, which ties together with the previous theme of inappropriate retrojection of capitalist commodities into pre-capitalist production.

Now I'm at where I said I'd stop. I might return later to continue, or write summaries, highlights and reference more contemporary things.
frank March 07, 2019 at 02:42 #262229
This is an example of finding value in labor time:



We ask why the tunic was left behind because we recognize that it must have been time consuming to make it. If the tunic was sold in a market, another kind of value would be attached to it. That the tunic represents a lot of labor would be only one component of market value.
fdrake November 14, 2019 at 12:44 #352384
Gonna get back to this.

Chapter 1: Summary.

(1) Commodities are things that have a use value ( a use ) and an exchange value ( they're worth something in trade).
(1a) The value of a commodity is at once how much it is worth, what labour has gone into it, and the relation of those two things to the system of labour of exchange they partake in.

(2) Labour produces commodities.

(3) A specific act, or contiguous class of acts, that produces a given thing is called concrete labour. Like a specific potter's pottery. Concrete labour imbues a natural resource with a use value. Like being a cup.

(4) When a labourer labours to produce a commodity, they don't just produce a thing to be consumed for their own private use or given as a gift. That is, they do not just perform private labour. They also perform social labour, that is labour for the production of a good that satisfies human needs generically within a system of exchange and/or labour.

(5) The value of a commodity depends upon the relation of the social labour of its creation to the system of exchange and labour it is embedded within; that is, it depends upon the condition of human labour in the abstract, or abstract labour associated with the acts of labour of that commodity's creation.

(6) The value of a commodity renders it commensurable to all other commodities; that is, it can be exchanged. This requires that the labour of its process of production is social, but also that it is produced for exchange. This is a necessary feature of value in a capitalist economy.

(7) The value of a commodity within a capitalist mode of production admits of a numerical measure; that is, a specific quantity of a specific commodity is always of some definite numerical worth. This is expressible as a price or as an amount of labour.
(7a) The logical/mathematical/social structure of exchange and worth equivalences in an economy is called a value form.
(7b) "Amount a of commodity X is worth amount b of commodity Y" is the general formula of a value form, the specifics of how it works indicate the specifics of a value form.
(7c) In the statement (7b), the commodity X expresses its value relative to an amount of commodity Y. Rephrased, X expresses its relative form of value with Y serving as its equivalent form.
(7d) When all commodities can express their values in a privileged commodity Y (within an economy), Y is called the universal equivalent.

(8) The expressibility of a commodity's value in terms of a specific amount of a privileged commodity (or representative of a commodity) occurs in an economy in which, in principle, all commodities are exchangeable with every other and their exchange ratios are quantified in terms of that one privileged commodity. This value form is the money form, with that privileged commodity (or representative of it) as a universal equivalent (skipping lots of detail here).

(9) The value of a commodity is simultaneously a relation of commodities of equal worth but also a relation of the conditions of their production that render them of equal worth. In life, we only interact with the commodities' production processes through the medium of exchange; we buy shit. This gives rise to commodity fetishism; the material relations between people become social relations between things.
Baden November 14, 2019 at 13:28 #352391
Reply to fdrake

Great stuff. :cheer:

Quoting fdrake
This gives rise to commodity fetishism; the social relations between people become material relations between things


And of course, he goes further as you mentioned earlier in the discussion, characterising the transference of social relations between people into not just material but also social relations between commodities.

[quote=Marx]
Whence, then, arises the enigmatical character of the product of labour, so soon as it assumes the form of commodities? Clearly from this form itself. The equality of all sorts of human labour is expressed objectively by their products all being equally values; the measure of the expenditure of labour power by the duration of that expenditure, takes the form of the quantity of value of the products of labour; and finally the mutual relations of the producers, within which the social character of their labour affirms itself, take the form of a social relation between the products.
.
... with commodities ... the existence of the things quâ commodities, and the value relation between the products of labour which stamps them as commodities, have absolutely no connection with their physical properties and with the material relations arising therefrom. There it is a definite social relation between men, that assumes, in their eyes, the fantastic form of a relation between things. In order, therefore, to find an analogy, we must have recourse to the mist­ enveloped regions of the religious world. In that world the productions of the human brain appear as independent beings endowed with life, and entering into relation both with one another and the human race. So it is in the world of commodities with the products of men’s hands. This I call the Fetishism which attaches itself to the products of labour, so soon as they are produced as commodities, and which is therefore inseparable from the production of commodities[/quote]

https://web.stanford.edu/~davies/Symbsys100-Spring0708/Marx-Commodity-Fetishism.pdf

This outsourcing of social relations to the material and absorption of material relations into the social is for me the most interesting and significant idea in the first chapter.
fdrake November 14, 2019 at 17:43 #352448
Quoting Baden
This outsourcing of social relations to the material and absorption of material relations into the social is for me the most interesting and significant idea in the first chapter.


I really like the value form bit.

Chapter 2: Exchange

Preparatory note:

Chapter 1 dealt with commodities and how they have value. They have value because of how exchange works. Chapter 2 looks at exchange as a social phenomenon. The focus is not on how and why people make particular exchanges of commodities, but on the general structure of exchange.

It is customary nowadays to analyse the value of an asset by what a reasonable individual would pay for it; which includes an analysis of supply, demand, and return on investment if relevant. When you go to the supermarket, what you buy and how much influences the calculations of supply and demand and expected return on investment driving the pricing mechanisms of the company which owned the product you bought; the owning company uses these things to forecast expected demand and return on investment for production of that good.

This is not the immediate topic at hand.

The topic at hand is analysing how our economy produces and maintains value at all; and how it comes to obtain given magnitudes for given goods. This is not first and most a method for analysing the specific prices that commodities obtain; as we've already seen that prices diverge from values.

So what is the value of value as a construct? What insights do we get from seeing things through its eyes? If it doesn't help in pricing schemes, why talk about it?

The value of value as a construct: it tracks changes in production and the generation of material wealth in the aggregate over interlinked economies. It allows you to do so qualitatively. Such a level of abstraction is not, as Popper would have it, a sin of the theory, it is a vital component of a description of how capital works. Prices day to day come and go in terms of "lawless irregularities" of the market; and the theoretical resolution here is not on a specific act of commodity exchange; it's on the level of what it means to purchase something with a given value to begin with, and how that value is given.

This is not to say that pricing models are irrelevant or untrue, but that Marx's analysis and economic forecasting for prices and purchases have different concerns. "What is the overall developmental trajectory of capital?" vs "What is the developmental trajectory of my utility function over the next relatively short time period?". We don't attack history or anthropology for being merely descriptive any more; why should we do the same for a descriptive take on capital?

We should not expect a "master formula" that allows us to predict the long term development of the price of every asset from this book; we should expect an attempt at a general description of how capital develops and sustains itself; and this is precisely what is provided.
waarala November 15, 2019 at 14:26 #352750
What is your opinion on the role of the Hegelian dialectics in this first part where Marx deduces the category of money?
fdrake November 15, 2019 at 15:25 #352755
Quoting waarala
What is your opinion on the role of the Hegelian dialectics in this first part where Marx deduces the category of money?


Marx:(The) method of presentation must differ in form from that of inquiry. The latter has to appropriate the material in detail, to analyse its different forms of development, to trace out their inner connexion. Only after this work is done, can the actual movement be adequately described. If this is done successfully, if the life of the subject-matter is ideally reflected as in a mirror, then it may appear as if we had before us a mere a priori construction.

My dialectic method is not only different from the Hegelian, but is its direct opposite. To Hegel, the life process of the human brain, i.e., the process of thinking, which, under the name of “the Idea,” he even transforms into an independent subject, is the demiurgos of the real world, and the real world is only the external, phenomenal form of “the Idea.” With me, on the contrary, the ideal is nothing else than the material world reflected by the human mind, and translated into forms of thought.





I like sushi November 22, 2019 at 13:36 #355259
Just curious, does Marx ever bother to mention aesthetic value or something like it in Das Kapital?
fdrake November 22, 2019 at 14:53 #355274
Quoting I like sushi
Just curious, does Marx ever bother to mention aesthetic value or something like it in Das Kapital?


I imagine it would be part of use value.
I like sushi November 22, 2019 at 16:00 #355286
Reply to fdrake I’ve been having a search around and there isn’t much said in terms of ‘art’ as a ‘utility’, but it does seem to fall vaguely into that category.
Jamal November 22, 2019 at 16:24 #355291
Reply to I like sushi I think art is an exception to the kind of commodity production that Marx identifies as being the normal capitalist way of going on. Art is more akin to previous, less alienated modes of production. In any case, Marx wasn't remotely concerned with it in Capital, because it's atypical.

But if you're thinking of art production as a model of un-alienated production and exchange, then maybe you're on to something.

In Capital, as fdrake suggests, Marx identifies anything that we value as a use value before we consider whether and how it's being produced for and exchanged in a market. It doesn't matter for his purposes, in that work, in what way these things are useful or desired: they can be any kind of wanted things, not only necessities but also works of art, entertainment, gratification, etc.

By the way, don't mistake Marx's neglect here, in Capital, for a temperamental or moral neglect of art in general.
I like sushi November 22, 2019 at 16:36 #355293
Reply to jamalrob Thanks.

The most appropriate section I’ve come across to back this up is the following:

Although use-values serve social needs and therefore exist within the social framework, they do not express the social relations of production. For instance, let us take as a use-value a commodity such as a diamond. We cannot tell by looking at it that the diamond is a commodity. Where it serves as an aesthetic or mechanical use-value, on the neck of a courtesan or in the hand of a glass-cutter, it is a diamond and not a commodity. To be a use-value is evidently a necessary prerequisite of the commodity, but it is immaterial to the use-value whether it is a commodity. Use-value as such, since it is independent of the determinate economic form, lies outside the sphere of investigation of political economy. It belongs in this sphere only when it is itself a determinate form. Use-value is the immediate physical entity in which a definite economic relationship—exchange-value—is expressed.
I like sushi November 25, 2019 at 04:02 #356054
After reading a little more I now see how some people espousing severe leftist ideologies have cherry-picked certain sections of Marx to justify claims that an hours labour by one person deserves the same pay as another.

It’s pretty badly written from my perspective. The concept of Value used alongside value and several other subcategories of ‘value’ hack the colloquial meaning to pieces - nothing new in terms of ‘business’ jargon having enough pomposity to make the theories sound authoritative and justified.

This could’ve been written more precisely and detailed with less words. The important definitions used don’t seem to have been given proper definitions. There is also what appears to be a forced position in regards to how to approach ‘skilled labour’ by reducing the argument to a point where all labour is viewed as ‘equal’ for some of his definitions - I understand the use of this to outline certain concepts, but it seems to have been carried through into other areas that have provided the kind of people I mentioned in the first paragraph with dangerous ammunition to make rather crazy claims about ‘labour’ and ‘value’.

All that said I can now see that when I was talking about ‘aesthetics’ it falls outside the circle of ‘commodity’ by Marx’s definition. I’m a little disappointed this important human trait (aesthetic sensibility) wasn’t given more thought.
I like sushi November 25, 2019 at 04:50 #356069
Also, as I read another contradiction pops up. It is hard to see these contradictions as they’re obscured by the obtuse and ill-demarcated definitions.

Something appears to be lost in translation or am I mistaken about the ‘obtuse’ nature of the various categories of ‘value’ used. The capitalisation of Value is significant I feel in regards to how German is written (capitalised words are always nouns).

I’m curious if anyone has insight regarding this detail?

Note: Just checked another translation which shows ‘Values’ to mean ‘Commodity Values’.
fdrake November 25, 2019 at 14:00 #356187
Reply to I like sushi

It would help if you described the contradiction.
I like sushi November 25, 2019 at 14:44 #356192
Reply to fdrake Now I’ve looked further it’s partly down to a poor translation.

One that does stick out is the term ‘useless’ where I can only assume that it should read ‘unused’? If not I’d appreciate if you could explain why and provide quotes - referring to end of section one:

Finally, nothing can be a value without being an object of utility. If the thing is useless, so is the labor contained in it; the labor does not count as labor, and therefore does not create value.


http://content.csbs.utah.edu/~ehrbar/cap1.pdf
fdrake November 25, 2019 at 15:06 #356194
Reply to I like sushi

People will only buy things they can use. Something needs to have a use value in order for it to have an exchange value. When both apply, an item is a commodity and it has value.

There can be use values produced without exchange values; or an item made which is not made to be sold for profit; like art can be in @jamalrob's take.

I like sushi November 25, 2019 at 15:39 #356197
Reply to fdrake But what is a ‘useless’ thing? What had no ‘use value’? Nothing. So why not say ‘unused value’?

jamalrob’s take doesn’t work here because Marx has already made explicit that ‘wheat’ or ‘iron’ have ‘use value’ yet are we to assume the Earth itself as ‘making’ these items for us to use? I don’t see how that position can work given that raw materials are said to have ‘use value’. Whether or not an item is ‘produced’ for selling is irrelevant to it’s ‘use value’ - Marx states this clearly enough.

The exchange makes a ‘product’ a ‘commodity’ and then the ‘use value’ alters to ‘Value’. If I produce art with no intention of selling it and then someone steals it from me they can most certainly sell it regardless of my personal intentions.

I can only charitably assume ‘useless’ means ‘unused’. The other option is equivalent to closing my eyes and saying I’m blind. Is it at all reasonable to think that maybe, just maybe, there is a common error in translation here? It does say “nutzlos” though which is “useless” ... so I guess Oscar Wilde would be in agreement with his statement that ‘Art is useless’? What other ‘work’ or ‘product’ could be deemed absent of Value (even potential value)?

This would lead back to my initial concern. That Marx pays no attention to aesthetics, artistry, human value or social relationships in terms of ‘economics’. It seems like a deeply flawed approach to me when looking at economic structures and issues surrounding ‘value’.
fdrake November 25, 2019 at 16:32 #356214
Quoting I like sushi
That Marx pays no attention to aesthetics, artistry, human value or social relationships in terms of ‘economics’.


An odd claim, considering seeing money as a social form of exchange is central to the value theory.

Quoting I like sushi
The exchange makes a ‘product’ a ‘commodity’ and then the ‘use value’ alters to ‘Value’. If I produce art with no intention of selling it and then someone steals it from me they can most certainly sell it regardless of my personal intentions.


So there are two sources of profit. One is profit through exchange. One is profit through producing goods for exchange. The two unify into the operation of profit for capital. You can't produce profit through exchange without produced goods. Nor can you sell (things which have been created for private use or have no labour expended in their creation or application) without there being an economy capable of such exchange. Ultimately for Marx, all sources of profit come from labour expended in production (the creation of surplus value). He's explicit on this point in Theories of Surplus Value in his comment on Steuart:

(For Steuart) The price of goods therefore comprises two elements that are completely different from each other; firstly their real value, secondly, the profit upon alienation, the profit realised through their transfer to another person, their sale.

||221| This profit upon alienation therefore arises from the price of the goods being greater than their real value, or from the goods being sold above their value. Gain on the one side therefore always involves loss on the other. No addition to the general stock is created. Profit, that is, surplus-value, is relative and resolves itself into “a vibration of the balance of wealth between parties”. Steuart himself rejects the idea that surplus-value can be explained in this way. His theory of “vibration of the balance of wealth between parties”, however little it touches the nature and origin of surplus-value itself, remains important in considering the distribution of surplus-value among different classes and among different categories such as profit, interest and rent.


The overall picture is: you have a ledger with a piece of art in it worth x, the person you're selling it to has a ledger with x money in it. You exchange the good. You've now got x money. The other person has the piece of art. The total over all ledgers remains the same. Profit through exchange is a redistribution of value among participants, not value creative. It requires there to be a value structure to "immerse" the apparently independently produced commodity in. Once you exchange it, you establish "this piece of art is worth x".

Moreover, prices can diverge from values, and usually do. You can assign a price to things which are not products of value creative labour - like pieces of art and natural resources, so having 0 labour time embodied vs having a nonzero price.

Objects that in themselves are no commodities, such as conscience, honour, &c., are capable of being offered for sale by their holders, and of thus acquiring, through their price, the form of commodities. Hence an object may have a price without having value. The price in that case is imaginary, like certain quantities in mathematics. On the other hand, the imaginary price-form may sometimes conceal either a direct or indirect real value-relation; for instance, the price of uncultivated land, which is without value, because no human labour has been incorporated in it


I don't think you're studying patiently enough. If it helps, imagine the account so far as having all value coming from production of commodities for exchange. If there's some external thing - like a natural resource or a piece of art (anything which is created through private labour or is not created through labour at all) - it must be introduced to the economy through exchange; that is, it obtains a valuation consistent with the value form which is operative in the economy that exchange takes place within.
I like sushi November 25, 2019 at 18:18 #356267
Quoting fdrake
Something needs to have a use value in order for it to have an exchange value.


Of course, because everything had ‘use value’ so why bother stating this? Unless Marx says otherwise somewhere that there is some ‘object’ that had no ‘use value’. Please show me where?

You seem to be avoiding the thrust of the issue here. WHAT is meant here:

If the thing is useless, so is the labor contained in it; the labor does not count as labor, and therefore does not create value.


What is a ‘useless’ thing? I’m simply suggesting this means ‘unused’ OR it’s a terrible way of saying ‘not value, but still use value’ meaning the ‘useless’ as ‘value’ not ‘use value’.

What comes later does concern me right now as this is within the opening section of the work. It’s needless obtuse or contrary.

fdrake November 25, 2019 at 18:52 #356278
Reply to I like sushi

So what you want from Marx is an analysis of what it means for something to be useful. Rather than more cursory remarks regarding how something has to be useful in order for it to be sold. I can't think of a particularly good definition of use value that doesn't require knowing how "use" works.

A use value is a thing's capacity to be used for a range of activities (including biological processes, aesthetic appreciation, social lubricant...). Use values depend on the thing's material properties and the role those material properties together play in the social contexts associated with the thing.

I say capacity because a spoon in a submarine wreck could still be used as a spoon even if it is not used as a spoon now. This comes from the social function of spoons as cutlery, and our propensity to consume food which is liquid.

Maybe this will do: a use value is a thing which can satisfy human want or need. We tend to produce things which do this. We tend to produce use values.

Are there things which cannot satisfy human want or need? Dunno, humans are pretty flexible. We'd probably be better off looking historically there (as Marx says, discovering use values is the work of history) - would a powdered egg shell be of use to anyone in 20,000BC? Maybe they'd still enjoy snorting it... maybe there're social customs that would develop based on snorting powdered eggs. Who knows.
I like sushi November 25, 2019 at 19:38 #356284
Reply to fdrake What I wanted was the meaning of ‘useless’ explained. I was pretty explicit about the issue I had. If you cannot think of anything then I’ll just have to put that term down as a mistake or needless obtuse. Either way, something is off.
fdrake November 25, 2019 at 20:20 #356302
Quoting I like sushi
What I wanted was the meaning of ‘useless’ explained.


Satisfies no human want or need?
I like sushi November 26, 2019 at 06:55 #356425
Reply to fdrake Can you at least see my issue here? The conflict of terms?

If a ‘use value’ becomes a ‘Value’ (commodity) then the ‘use value’ is covered up. So is he saying that both ‘Value’ is useless because ‘use value’ is out of sight, and/or that a kind of ‘unpotentialised use value’ is useless, because it is again out of sight.

For instances of these confusions:

So is also the establishment of social measures for the quantities of these useful objects.
The diversity of these measures of commodities originates in part from the diverse nature of the objects to be measured, and in part from convention.

The usefulness of a thing makes it a use-value.

But this usefulness does not dangle in midair. Conditioned by the physical properties of the body of the commodity, it has no existence apart from the latter.

The body itself of the commodity, such as iron, wheat, diamond, etc., is therefore a use-value or a good.

This characteristic of a commodity does not depend on whether appropriating its useful properties costs more or less labor.


Pay particular attention to the bold. I am saying there no thing that is wholly absent of ‘usefulness’ - there is no ‘useless’ item. As this is a key concept I have instant doubts about where this is going already as there is a lack of precision - repeated later with over simplification regarding skilled labour.

Also:

The commodity is at first an exterior object, a thing, which by its properties satisfies human wants of one sort or another.

[b]The nature of such wants, whether they arise, for instance, from the stomach or from
imagination, makes no difference.[/b]

Nor does it matter here how the object satisfies these human wants, whether directly as object of consumption, or indirectly as means of production.


Can anyone suggest anything that doesn’t have the potential to satisfy ’human wants or needs’? It’s a chimera.

The last bold part does seem to suggest ‘self-entertainment’- but I’m being generous. The thrust of my point here is that producing something without the intent of it being open to the public as a utility doesn’t take away the ‘use-value’ as Marx defines. Yet as we’ve seen he is happy to later talk about something as ‘useless’ - which we both seem to assume means an object absent of ‘use value’ and further still he states that the ‘labour is not labour’.

The contradiction is well hidden I’ll grant that. I’m not against contradictions - I’ve read Kant - but these contradictions are presented in the same section it is not the case that he’s set up different sets of limitations and then set them out parallel to each other.

The problems continue:

Every useful thing, such as iron, paper, etc., is to be looked at under two aspects: quality and quantity.


‘Quality’ here means ‘utility’. The is the ongoing problem of human existence in many ways and an age old question. How to measure different ‘qualities’ against each other. To then dress up ‘quality’ as ‘utility’ is to say the quality of something has nothing to do with aesthetics as it is all about how an object can be utilized not about any direct consideration of ‘qualities’ just practical functions irrespective of any human sense of aesthetic taste.

I assume all he is trying to say here is that the ‘utility’ (‘use-value, not ‘quality’) of resources are Valued (as in ‘Value’) by how they function the production of a commodity. The ‘utility’ for every item conceivable is always present, yet not always fulfilled - by ‘wants or needs’ due to ignorance or knowledge.

There is NO ‘useless’ resource present in opposition to ‘use-value’. It’s a value dichotomy. There most certainly are unfulfilled ‘use-values’. The fulfilled ‘use-values’ inevitably embody an object with value regardless of whether this ‘value’ extends beyond the personal sphere into the public.

To return to the first quote and provide another translation:

But this usefulness does not dangle in midair. Conditioned by the physical properties of the body of the commodity, it has no existence apart from the latter.


The utility of a thing makes it a use value. But this utility is not a thing of air. Being limited by the physical properties of the commodity, it has no existence apart from that commodity.


This is wrong. There is ‘existence’ within the conscious human being. We don’t merely act upon the world as an exterior influence, we actively impose ourselves upon it. The ‘utility’ of resources don’t jump out to us like sentient beings. We have an intent, a sense of time and place, and go to play in the word of things directed partly by our aesthetic disposition not entirely as reactionary beings absent of agency.

The whole premise is actually based on this thought. We brought resources into a position where we can refer to them as ‘commodities’ to be exchanged, improved and engaged with. We simply have a drive to utilise our environment and the ‘Value’ is an aspect of measuring ‘efficiency’. Even this barely touching on the ‘utility’ of human interactions outside of what many consider ‘economics’. From what I’ve read Marx has done no more than sharpen the capitalist sword rather than offer a new means of engagement in the sphere of ‘economics’ - maybe I was expecting way too much :)

Anyway, maybe I’m not discussing what you wished to discuss in this thread? Either way I think my time would be better spent keeping my thoughts mostly to myself for now as I work my way through the text. I like the line of questions he presents even if I find the presentation wanting.
fdrake November 26, 2019 at 08:09 #356443
Quoting I like sushi
Anyway, maybe I’m not discussing what you wished to discuss in this thread? Either way I think my time would be better spent keeping my thoughts mostly to myself for now as I work my way through the text. I like the line of questions he presents even if I find the presentation wanting.


To be honest I think what you're saying is irrelevant to the argument.

Use value - (a use value is...) item that satisfies human wants or needs. Item considered under the aspect of human want or need satisfaction. The wants or needs a human can attempt to fulfil with the device (use value of...). These are facilitated by the properties of the object. If something can't be used for a specific purpose, it does not have that use value - it is useless for that task.

Exchange value - (an exchange value is) what a commodity trades for. (an exchange value of) What a commodity is of equal worth to.

Value - a system of valuation that gives specific values of a specific form to commodities in a network of exchange.

Also:

Quoting I like sushi
From what I’ve read Marx has done no more than sharpen the capitalist sword rather than offer a new means of engagement in the sphere of ‘economics’ - maybe I was expecting way too much :)


Value does come to cover up use value. Things are produced to be sold for profit rather than to be used. Value also comes to cover up social relationships. Commodity fetishism.
I like sushi November 26, 2019 at 08:26 #356453
I tried to deal with that here with the proposition that this condition is changing due to what I guess we can call ‘status value’ being subsumed by ‘aesthetic value’.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/7076/marxs-commodity-fetishism/p1

I was mostly thinking out loud at the start of the thread, but I think the last 2-3 posts of that thread expressed my thoughts more concisely.

Anyway, thanks for the exchange :) it’s been extremely useful in helping me see what I mean and where I’m looking. Lots of things bouncing around my stupid little skull so I better vomit on some paper more before returning.
fdrake November 26, 2019 at 09:21 #356465
Reply to I like sushi

I quite like reading Marx as something of a metaphysician; what would metaphysics have to look like for what he's saying to be true? I enjoy reading him with that emphasis - as a social metaphysician as well as an economist.
I like sushi December 16, 2019 at 09:23 #363572
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eMJk4y9NGvE