Living and Dying
We don't generally talk about death with other people. The topic, in general, is often seen as a negative or faux pas. Yet, all of us eventually die. It's just a matter of when you become a statistic to some event. So, why all the hush hushness about death and dying.
I'm taking a class on the subject of the title of this thread, and the professor is very vigilant in case anyone feels bad or wants to leave class so that he may be able to intervene with psychological help in case there need be.
So, why is it taboo to talk about death?
I'm taking a class on the subject of the title of this thread, and the professor is very vigilant in case anyone feels bad or wants to leave class so that he may be able to intervene with psychological help in case there need be.
So, why is it taboo to talk about death?
Comments (50)
Also, one's relationship to death is fairly personal. So talking about death is something you do with people you are close with, since you are revealing something that is vulnerable about yourself.
Would that make us irrational then, to fear death? If nothing can be done about it's inevitability then isn't the proper attitude to calmy accept it?
It's after finitude, for sure.
So, whereof one cannot speak, one must be silent?
But, this just reinforces the social stigma of talking about death.
I don't know. I think I'd put it like this -- there are different kinds of fear. And one kind of fear of death is where death ends up ruling your life. I think I'd term this sort of fear an irrational fear. This, I believe, was the target of Epicurean therapy -- in some interpretations the fear of death was thought to be the root cause of accumulating wealth and power, for instance, as if you could literally stave off death by becoming powerful or immortal in the minds of others.
But simply feeling the fear? I don't think that's irrational. I don't know if it's rational either. But I do believe that death and vulnerability are closely linked together, and that the ancient therapies which made nothing of death were also aiming at something almost inhuman -- invulnerability. Since we are mortal they aimed at an invulnerability of the mind or heart.
I suppose I'd say that if you or someone happens to land in a place where death is nothing to you, and you live in ataraxic equanimity then that's great. But I don't know if it's necessarily a goal. More like -- if it happens to you and you're happy then fine, but if not then you can come to terms with your fear, feel it, without it dominating your life. And the latter seems like a much more achievable, human goal.
There's no agenda beyond people getting together and talking about death and dying. They don't have to be anywhere close to dying (at least as far as they know).
Death is a buzz kill, no doubt.
When I was a young man I didn't think about dying, didn't happen to have many funerals to attend, didn't talk about death much. AIDS changed that. People I knew who were my age or younger were dying difficult -- agonizing -- deaths. Later on my parents died, a brother and a sister died, my partner died, and there were others -- brothers in law, a niece, two nephews, friends, acquaintances. Cancer, old age, heart disease...
Get used to dying; it helps to be on a first name basis. You won't die sooner or later because of it, but it's less of a dread.
I haven't. Thanks for bringing that up. I doubt I'll attend any meetings; but, it's cool that they have those.
But, I'm alive right now, and my own death is pure fiction. Right now is all that exists, and my own death doesn't, but all of those pressures trying to slowly kill me... that's another story.
That's not death. That's life under less than ideal conditions (which is generally the case).
Just remember... you're slightly uncomfortable? Pains in too many joints? Don't see well? Can't hear worth a damn? You tire easily? Your hair is gone? You're no longer beautiful/handsome/just too marvelous for words? Oh dear...
Just consider the alternative. As it says in Ecclesiastes, "It is better to be a live dog than a dead lion."
Stop bellyaching. We're all in the same boat.
I only mean to say that "death" isn't a thing, it's an abstraction, that's definition has changed over time, from failure of the heart, until we started restarting them, to failure of the brain. It's abstract, and vague, but the things that are killing you are very crisp, and very real.
I don't know what you're identifying with through time. Clearly we are our body and faculties, and like the heap problem, at what point we are no longer ourselves, as we've been too damaged, or altered isn't clear. Even a drastic change in outlook, one can say that they are not the same as before. Under ideal conditions... perhaps, but I think that the ideal conditions we're speaking of is the health and functionality of our faculties which as a totality constitute us, and the degradation and loss of those faculties until their complete loss.
Well its after (following on @unenlightened's post) anything you can think. you just cant get there from here, thinking. tho youre fated to get there nonethless.)
It's only taboo to those who've not come to acceptable terms with it. Many are taught to fear it. That teaching can run deep. Others are taught that it can be an honorable thing, in specific instances, including suicide in ancient Japanese cultures. This is honorable as a result of not allowing oneself to be captured or killed by the enemy. Hence, the kamikaze pilots and the samurai falling onto his own sword.
Indeed, yet we are here talking about it.
I don't feel as though we are taught to fear it. Think about elephants or chimpanzees that mourn the dead. They don't show fear towards the dead, just a sense of loss.
Certainly some animals mourn. I do not see the relevance of that to death being a taboo subject to some people.
You may not have been taught to fear death. Many are. Not all.
Well, animals mourn and are not fearful of death. It's just a natural thing for them that they witness every day. Animals can become depressed or sad or anxious; but, never fearful of death. Is it our self-awareness that comes into play that makes us fear death?
Sure, as a noun naming a completed process it's abstract, but in concrete terms, death is a material process. Except if we are killed instantly (as in exploded, vaporized) death follows various courses. Various diseases instigate progressive organ failure, for instance. Death finally occurs when the life-supporting capacity of the vital organs (heart, lung, kidney, liver, lower brain functions) collapses altogether.
Sherwin B. Nuland wrote a best seller, "How We Die" in 1994. He himself died at 84 of prostate cancer in 2014. Nuland, a surgeon, provides straightforward information on how we make our departures from this world -- what tends to fail first, how how one organ failure can cascade, etc. Good book.
Are we? It seems to me we're talking mostly about the fact people fear it, people and other animals mourn the death of other people and animals, and whether and why it's a taboo subject. True, there has been some mention of causes of death, and when death occurs. We can talk about planning for death, how to face death, how death is caused in various cases, how we react or should react to death, whether there's an afterlife, whether the soul survives death, whether there are ghosts, but death itself?
Talking about death can be cathartic, I think, and seeing as we have only a finite amount of emotion in us with regard to any topic, once you've exhausted that, you can probably equally take it or leave it. And I don't think there's a particular taboo surrounding death any more than any other depressing topic, more so than just confusion about what to meaningfully say. Like, what do you say about it beyond platitude in the context of the way we live now? Maybe the way we live now just is on the basis that nothing can be said of death beyond platitude. As long as we keep that going, all's well. Just thinking aloud, but that's what occurs to me.
Well, yes, all of that constitutes what death is. The planning, reaction, and whole drama with death are conducive to elucidating what death is.
Why is that?
I read a quote once I forget by who that reads.
He was afraid of death because he never lived.
Or words to that effect.
I suspect that we fear death more these days because we are so full of our own sense of self importance, the undeniable counter argument to our self importance and validity is death.
The notional construct of God is perhaps a derivative of our fear of death and regardless of its origins, it has certainly been significantly diluted since the advent of science. I suspect that we fear death more in the West because we are so wealthy and so removed from God, from the truth of ourselves, from community and from nature. Our wealth allows us to live very independent lives, we have our own cars houses, private worlds and lives on the internet etc. The more materially independent we are the more we are removed from nature and from the realities of nature. Death is final word from nature, and when we are removed from a dialogue with nature death is more distant and more alien to us.
Today we face the ultimate challenge (death) relatively more alone than ever before. Undoubtedly when the environment begins to collapse and man is returned towards a dependent interaction with and reliance upon nature and community death will be far less. I suspect that people who are more fundamentally honest with themselves and who are more intouch with 'nature' are less worried by death.
M
I think God factors in only insofar that we have a notion of what death ought to look like. Death just doesn't fit the narrative of identity. We are used to the idea of identity having a non-temporal permanence; but, that just isn't so. So, death is a direct onslaught on our conception of our/ones/my identity. I don't want to die because I have identified with myself in a non-temporal fashion.
Indeed.. but lots of presumption here.
What does it mean to have 'lived'.?
What does it mean to identify with ones self.?
I think if one gets a really good slice of life's pie, one will be satisfied and have less fear of dying, just like its hard to feel or fear hunger after Christmas dinner.
M
It means what it says. To have lived. My only hope is that it was done in an ethical manner of sorts or the event of death came at an elevated age.
Quoting Marcus de Brun
It means to say that one is self-conscious. One doesn't go through life as a zombie, I hope.
Quoting Marcus de Brun
I suppose we can head down this hedonistic past; but, I don't think there's any point to it at all.
Death (imop) is only difficult when there are regrets that pertain to ones life. If one has few real and few deep regrets about ones life one is less likely to fear death and if one fears it less the experience is going to be less unpleasant.
Now the thing about life is that no matter how we choose to live it... we will have regrets, so the key to a 'good' death is having as few regrets as possible.
Not sure about the importance of ethics? An adherence to certain ethics is important.. but I think the universal ethical code of 'do no harm to others' is good enough for me.
I regret that i am not a vegetarian (animals are 'others') and this might make my death more unpalatable and hence more difficult, but I will take that on the chin because I love a rib-eye with a glass of cab-sav.
I don't think hedonism is an answer to the question.. but a love of self, a love of nature and as few regrets as possible are (I think) the personal ingredients for a relatively nice death.
M
There is no commiseration in death, even if one can commiserate during its process, however briefly. You can't take a friend with you. There are no photos or video after the fact. We have no tour guides to help us to enjoy a better journey....whatever that means.
In that sense, I think the subject is simply too stark and obscure to discuss at length. It's heavy, dark, and conclusive. It just has no real appeal in social gatherings, any more than one's bowel movements would.
I don't doubt that. But, what is this grounded on? The satisfaction of wants and needs? Again, psychologism. There's more to life than the brute calculus of a utilitarian.
In that sense, I think the subject is simply too stark and obscure to discuss at length. It's heavy, dark, and conclusive. It just has no real appeal in social gatherings, any more than one's bowel movements would.
I disagree, I think death has only lost its appeal because technology removes us from its reality.
Ones bowel movements are very interesting, but equally removed from the general dialogue because of a delusion of human sophistication that is bourne out of technology.
The ancients had a great respect and enthusiasm for bowel motions and the Druids or Shamans of old Ireland once practiced the noble art of 'gastromancy' predicting the future and communicating with the spirit world through and interpretation of flatulence and bowel sounds.
When our 'sophistication' and romance with technology comes to an end... when it is recognized as the cause of our undoing.. we shall return to a worship of the natural.. a dialogue with death... and we might well listen to the wisdom of our bowels.
M
I don't doubt that. But, what is this grounded on? The satisfaction of wants and needs? Again, psychologism.
Is there something more to the world... other than your own wants and needs?
M
Yes, surely. That's the mystical aspect of life. Spirituality and all that jazz.
Yet, we do share them. And we can talk successfully about them. They're relatable by nature.
The ancients had a great respect and enthusiasm for bowel motions and the Druids or Shamans of old Ireland once practiced the noble art of 'gastromancy' predicting the future and communicating with the spirit world through and interpretation of flatulence and bowel sounds..."
When we become the 'ancients', I don't think that those who come after us, even if more enlightened, will have any stronger a penchant for discussing death than we do at present, and for the same reasons. It just isn't that interesting, even if it is definable and describable in a one-sided-view way.
"...When our 'sophistication' and romance with technology comes to an end... when it is recognized as the cause of our undoing.. we shall return to a worship of the natural.. a dialogue with death... and we might well listen to the wisdom of our bowels."
Who dialogs with death now, and who did among the 'ancients' you speak of? I think technology tells us much more, and reliably, about our bowels than did the musings of the 'ancients' who merely drew sticks through scat and human waste in order to predict outcomes. The lowly microscope, now 400 years old and hardly a technical darling except to those who know what it's good for, has shown us more about bowel movements than the sticks and the Mark I Eyeball ever has. In any case, it's beside the point...death...and bears no light to it.
I guess I reject your premise that it is a taboo subject. Difficult, perhaps, not conducive to a parlor game party surely, and best avoided when attempting to seduce your partner, but otherwise....it's just a fact of life.
Perhaps it's the target audience that my professor was worried might cause distress. If your 18-23 years old then you don't want to think about death that much. I do agree that it can become a national topic in the case of Switzerland for example. The Puritan and warped USA is different though.
Yeah, well... the 18-23 year olds probably don't want to think about the balance of payments problem; the state of American railroad unions; the annual Christmas bird count; commodity price supports; lice, bedbugs, and tapeworms; opera; and so on. Why should death be any different?
It could be that we're a generation of snowflakes. I suppose this is true to some degree. I don't mind talking about death; but, it's inherently more emotional than talking about the state of affairs of our union or the debt from college or the commodity price supports. :smile:
The rate of death in some communities is much higher than others. A young black person living in a high crime neighborhood is more likely to know someone who died by gunfire than a young white person living in a calm low-crime neighborhood.
Another factor in how often one will be confronted by death is how much community life one participates in. Many families have fairly limited community involvement. They don't belong to churches, social organizations, don't participate in scouting, extra-curricular activities at school, and so on. They are fairly isolated. That decreases the likelihood of knowing people who die.
So... they haven't encountered people dying; they are young; why would they talk a lot about death?
All that aside, I think it is good for people to think about the future deaths of themselves and people they know and love (or like a lot). Sooner or later, it's guaranteed to happen. Becoming familiar with the "idea" of death makes it less scary. Thinking about what people go through on their way to the grave should help clarify their thinking about what they themselves are willing--or not willing--to put up with.
For instance, if one is diagnosed with a fatal disease, it isn't necessary to "wage a war against one's cancer". When people are diagnosed with cancer at a probable terminal stage, radical treatment (surgery, radiation, chemotherapy, etc.) may not be worth it in terms of added suffering. If one hasn't thought about death and dying until that moment in the doctor's office where you hear "the prognosis is not good", it will be very difficult to make congruent personal decisions in the days and weeks ahead.
I'm not saying that one should be ready to throw in the sponge at the first mention of cancer, heart disease, COPD, or various other pieces of bad news. But thinking about death and dying ahead of time will enable one to make a more measured response.
A friend of mine who had become immobile because of obesity, circulatory problems, and injured joints, was not enthusiastic about life. When she was diagnosed with uterine cancer (usually a fairly slow, curable cancer) she decided to not get treatment. She felt she had nothing to live for. She had, in fact, passed the circumstance where she said she would commit suicide (if she couldn't get around and take care of herself). Unfortunately, she found that once one is in that situation, suicide is much more difficult to arrange. Even if she had been willing, she would never have been able to get to a bridge, crawl over the railing, and drown herself. Her collection of drugs had been confiscated by a nurse (suicide risk), so just letting the cancer go was her "best option". She died in her mid 60s.
She had been a nurse, knew what she was in for, and pursued it anyway. I had known her for 40 some years, and her actions were entirely consistent with what she had always expressed.
Her choice was suitable for her. Other people have to face their own circumstances and decide what to do.
I wouldn't think so, but it may be the case given the sheer complexity built into our self-awareness.
My cat is self-aware in some rudimentary sense unlike human self-awareness. At least that is what her use of a mirror shows. She knows that that's her in the mirror. She also knows how to look into the mirror and see something behind her. She looks at me through the mirror. I call her, and she then turns around and looks directly at me. That aside...
I think the human fear of death is akin in a specific way to many of our other fears... the unknown and unfamiliar.
There is a very narrow spectrum of animals that are capable of recognizing themselves in a mirror. I don't think cats are complex enough to fit the description.
Powerful story. I'm sorry to hear that she decided to go out like that. Being a nurse, I don't know what the suicide statistics for a female nurse in the US; but, sounds like a rare case to me. I know veterinarians and dentists score the highest though.
It was always difficult to figure her out. On the one hand, her assessments of other people were very rational; when it came to herself, she wasn't quite so clear. But too, her options in life were very limited. Minimal income, minimal options, inability to engage in life the way she was accustomed to (theater, travel, parties, etc.)--what was left for her? In her view, not much.
Yes, it was difficult; but dying is sometimes prolonged -- years of physical deterioration and disability before the final crisis. My mother declined for... maybe a decade? before she died at 87. Life just became more challenging. Some people are lucky. They are lively and mentally sound into advanced old age (90s, 100) and then die after short illnesses. There are several 90+ people at church, one 104, who are still very much engaged in life.
But "super seniors" are not the rule. Most people die before the reach that age, and if they are 95, are not in great shape.
[i]Death:
1 a : a permanent cessation of all vital (see vital 2a) functions : the end of life ·The cause of death has not been determined.
·managed to escape death
·prisoners were put to death
·death threats
— compare brain death
b : an instance of dying ·a disease causing many deaths
·lived there until her death
Also:
4 : the state of being no longer alive : the state of being dead[/i]
I think you folks are talking about something else.
I think it comes down to the fundamental reason that anyone who knows how it truly ends cannot communicate back to us, in a PROVABLE, scientific manner, even though I am fully convinced about spirits who have passed over, still communicating just through different means.
Posty, I am really glad you are taking this class because I am intrigued as to what they are going to teach and how much they will cover the "after" that happens after we cease living. My Mom working Hospice for 15 yrs gave me a wealth of true, unaltered recounts of how humans really cease living, if there are spirits, what it takes to release them and who is truly in charge of the departing process. So know I look forward to hearing about your class and your professor.
Having said that: there is a bumper sticker that I read years ago that still seems appropriate:
"I don't know and neither do you"