Depression and the Will
I just reread my old topics about the Philosophy of Depression and Embracing Depression. It seems that in my view depression is fundamentally about the will. Schopenhauer is perhaps the best philosopher about the issues of depression and the will or just depression and philosophical pessimism in general.
What I'm trying to say is, why is there a link between depression and willpower? People stuck in depression often chastise themselves over their own lack of willpower to lift themselves out of their depression. Is it that pessimism robs one's self from the ability to will oneself out of depression?
What do you think?
What I'm trying to say is, why is there a link between depression and willpower? People stuck in depression often chastise themselves over their own lack of willpower to lift themselves out of their depression. Is it that pessimism robs one's self from the ability to will oneself out of depression?
What do you think?
Comments (66)
Pessimism im terms of depression seems to be a pessimism of overcoming or changing; that is, living a life that is not chained to that pessimistic depression.
Depression is usually constitutive of an inability to overcome certain aspects about one's existence that have associated with them negative emotions or pain.
The pessimistic depression consists of an inability of not finding a way out but finding a way around, onto a different path atop different premises. These different premises would be what would be constitutive of happiness or positive emotions. Often a depression is because of an overwhelming number or magnititude of negative emotions and experiences, and the future seems to be determined by these experiences.
In order to find a different path and a different future, one must inevitably act and think and plan based on something else, which is extremely hard. Depression is often because one has a reason to be depressed: they will the depression. They will the depression because they do not want to let go and accept the indefinability of these negative emotions and experiences. People do not want to let go of how they feel because that would be departing from oneself... That is where the radical acceptance comes in.
It seems to me that the inability or unwanting to let go and accept completely the unchangeability of the past is because one is uncomfortable with that past. It is easy to accept having been happy, because one allows these happy experiences to lose their determining quality and add to their totality of personality. A negative experience, on the other hand... One does not often want negative experiences to be integrated into the personality. But this must happen. One must accept the darkness in order to not have a light that only exists in relation to such a darkness.
"A tree can only reach the heavens if its roots reach down to Hell." C G Jung
Yes, if you care to expand please do. I'm quite interested in his views on the will and mental ailments like depression. I'm not sure if he explicitly talked about depression though.
The meaning of life is reaching something, but in reaching that something the meaning will have been in the reaching.
Sadness would not exist if it were not juxtaposed with happiness. And thus it is that we base ourselves in how far we have reach down into the abyss but, consequently, we will know how deep we ourselves are.
"When you look into the abyss the abyss looks into you." Nietzsche
So, again an issue of motivation, and the power of the will. Is that correct?
Quoting Blue Lux
Huh? How can one will one's self into depression? That would be extremely irrational, no? Unless this is an unconscious process, yes?
Quoting Blue Lux
I thought depression was remedied by realizing those feelings, and not suppressing them? Or are you talking about suppressing them and not realizing them? Perhaps, I got the reasoning wrong?
http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/willpower.aspx
Pretty good read. Seems intrinsically linked with motivation; but, motivation is more internal than willpower, which is more malleable and external facet of human nature.
This is interesting. So, you're saying that a negative emotion is inconsequential insofar as it is not accepted? Therefore, the talk therapy of psychology is helpful, yes?
Quoting Blue Lux
So, therefore you are talking about the unconscious process' of defence mechanisms or such?
Quoting Blue Lux
Unsuppressed or suppressed, not sure I'm understanding you here.
...and overcome it?
Depression, seems to me, to be a completely useless and destructive human-condition. Allmost like fear, but not quite. As fear can be a rational feeling, and warn us of dangers, yet be an irrational feeling that prevents us from thinking rational.
Not necessarily. What I am referring to is the fact that, subsequently, down the line after accepting an emotion, the emotion's power over the will becomes suppressed. The accepting is not the will to a suppression but a will to allowing different emotions to come and influence and be accepted and integrated as well... And the more and more this happens... The more integrated emotions constitute the personality, and therefore the less power and influence each singular emotion could have. For the integration of an emotion does not completely strip the emotion of its power, it simply allows other emotions to materialize and show their significance, which is an aim of talk therapy or psychoanalysis.
Quoting Posty McPostface
Sometimes people think that suppressing an emotion is not bringing awareness toward it, or remaining unconscious of it, allowing it to metastasize. This is the case prior to the acceptance of an emotion, which suppresses it in terms of its determining power and influence OVER the will.
I could not summarize this along the lines of Nietzsche (as he is really hardcore), but the general statement would be it is not the inability to "lift (yourself) out of depression" but the inability to stop yourself sinking into it. The depression itself, the painful thought as uncontrolled will to effect, as exercise of power in the absence of power to effect the world.
Or, perhaps, after the integration of so many negative emotions into the personality, one finds themselves still at a loss. One simply has too negative of a personality.
But this is not the end.
Creativity is the key. Creating new experiences. Creating new understandings for oneself. Living differently.
The true definition of insanity and furthermore irrationality is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
But, what do you do if someone does not want a different life? What if someone does not want to change?
In that case...
Psychoanalysis could uncover a subjugated will that is, prior to anything else, not able to find meaning in changing.
What do you mean by this? Do you mean this in the manner that emotions that are suppressed are also affecting the will in a negative way?
So, it's an endless spiral out of control? Perhaps, the issue, then-past willpower-is control?
Yes, there's certainly a causal relationship between the two. But, chicken or egg? When one has no willpower they feel out of control of their lives or some situation; but, not being out of control and having no willpower?
I have no willpower, therefore, I feel out of control? (The converse doesn't sound right.)
One side is the reflected judgement, the other is the urge.
How long could you blink with one eye first and then the other instead of blinking simultaneously?
I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Please elaborate on what you have in mind.
And, how does one go about this? How do you integrate those emotions that are a drain on one's willpower?
We are sorry to inform you that Mr. Posty McPostface has established a firm claim to the unique characteristic of "Wallowing". "Wallowing -- it's what I do." That was in his pig avatar phase. Perhaps he has relinquished the claim, but probably not.
Quoting Blue Lux
I'm not buying this theory.
Quoting Posty McPostface
"realizing those feelings" (whatever they are) makes them available for evaluation and intervention. Just realizing them doesn't make them go away.
The reason they call it "depression" and not something else is that "depression" is a dysfunctional, lowering of mental/emotional functioning. Depression can be mild (feeling sort of blue these days); moderate (I can't sleep, can't get my work done, i feel awful); severe (Maybe I should kill myself; I have a gun and nobody cares, anyway); and terminal (catetonia -- one is emotionally, cognitively, physically unresponsive, and if this goes on long enough, one will die.
Many people with depression actually exhibit quite a bit of will power. They do not feel like it, but they make themselves get out of bed, take care of the children, do their work, take the dog for a walk (the dog isn't depressed, after all and insists on it), and so forth. One can not will one's self out of depression -- I don't care how much of an übermensch/Superman one thinks one is. What one can will are decisions: changes in life that will perhaps make one feel better. Quitting a bad job, moving into a better neighborhood with less dirt, noise, disorder; quitting a bad relationship; and so on. None of these sorts of changes are guaranteed to make one less depressed, but wallowing (sorry Posty) in the same shithole month after month is certainly not going to result in progress.
Some people seem to have depression which is moderate to severe, is not caused by circumstances, and will not improve with a change in circumstances. They may have to receive extra care, and these days, medication and/or electroshock therapy (which seems to help severe and terminal depression).
I haven't wallowed all that much today. Perhaps, a little; but, significantly less today. :blush:
Quoting Bitter Crank
All good. I think the Prozac is kicking in so, no harm was done... :blush:
Go ahead. Nobody's judging.
No one asked you to buy it. No one asked you to completely adopt it.
Perhaps you could elaborate on it and tell how it could be false or incomplete or not taking into consideration other important factors of a depression.
Yes, depression has a lot of will. I will reference Freud again. "Depression is not a sign of weakness; it is a sign one has been trying too hard for too long."
And btw, I have based this conception not on my own accord, but on personal experience in helping my own depression. And this was done by an analysis of Freud, Jung and Lacan.
Yes, they are compelled to do these things, otherwise, the anxiety, which is the identical twin of depression, tends to kick in. But, I would surmise that depression is robbing one's self of their willpower. As to why is a general mystery still...
I've been depressed for a long time and I haven't seen one single benefit from it. Disease is not beneficial. Disease is harmful. We don't have to find some hidden silver lining under the shit pile.
Depression is the result of strong emotions. Strong emotions are inevitably an expression of the depth of a person. There is much a person can do with depression. Just because you have not personally witnessed a benefit to 'depression' does not mean that there is absolutely no benefit. The benefit will be in pulling yourself out. You are in a hole and you can beat yourself up about it and say that you do not have the ability to get out... But once you find a way out you will not be downing yourself anymore. You will premise, pre reflectively, your totality and realize your strength.
ECT is more complicated than it looks. For instance, most patients are properly sedated before they receive ECT. However, it was found that severely depressed patients with certain kinds of neurological disorders responded much better to ECT if they received a small dose of caffeine first. I don't know why the caffeine helped, but it did.
Still, most people who are depressed, or have other mental illnesses, are NOT candidates for ECT.
This ties in with the observation that depressed people are often perfectionists. The set very high standards for themselves which they can not fulfill, and feel like failures for not achieving the undoable. I don't know why depression stimulates perfectionist tendencies, but it seems to in many people -- it certainly did for me. By nature I am a big picture person and do not like dealing with the details that are involved in perfection. "Close enough for government work" is more my approach.
Another problem with "depression" (Freud, Jung, and World Congress of Psychoanalysts not withstanding) is that a lot of things get labeled as "depression" which are not. For instance, many people are...
intensely frustrated by their circumstances
very angry
over-worked
lonely
terminally bored
deeply in debt
drink too much
use too many drugs
grew up or are living in chaotic families and do not know what "normal" looks like
very angry
unemployed
socially marginalized and excluded
and so on and so forth. Various combinations of these conditions can look like vague mental illness or "depression". Medication isn't going to help much. Xanax may calm you down; Prozac may or may not make you feel better. In general, one won't feel better until one does something about the problems in ones life that are unsatisfactory.
These people aren't sick -- they are more likely just screwed, or are very unlucky and unfortunate.
Let's say that one loved literature, was encouraged to major in English and later got an MFA in poetry writing, but then finds that one can't make anywhere close to enough money to pay one's college loans back (and one can't declare bankruptcy to get rid of them). Our well-read poet is now working as a bartender and a waiter. He feels totally screwed. And guess what -- he is. He is suffering from SBL Syndrome. He should have majored in molecular biology or gone to trade school.
Here's another case: A couple didn't do a great job raising their children. It's hard to tell what went wrong, but they're not terribly responsible and seem to need continuing parental help, even though the children are now in their mid-30s. The parents, meantime, are getting old and feel they should retire. But they can't because they helped their children too much. They are tired, hopeless, peeved, and dissatisfied -- as well they should be. They too are victims of SBL Syndrome. Maybe they shafted themselves through the best of intentions, but they are broke now, and too old to do anything about it.
:lol:
Katharsis is said to help dealing with emotional conflicts and surely the urge to just bemoan one's fate is understandable in our culture. Nietzsche (more or less) pointed out that thanks to cultural achievements you can virtually always feel sad and thereby suffering itself managed to become some kind of positive value: If you suffer you must be good man. Especially if there is no real reason to. It indicates high culture - just take a look at gothics. The fineness of the princess is indicated by her being affected by the pea under several mattresses.
All I know is that when I stopped feeling depressed a few years ago, I changed from reflexive pessimism ("that will never work") to a much more hopeful and positive outlook ("Hey, give it a try.") My opinions haven't changed -- I still think capitalism totally sucks, I think global warming will probably kill us off, but in the meantime, I feel great.
As far as I'm aware, depression is reflexively not an itch. We shirk away from a problem we face due to depression and tend to bury the issue under a pile of rationalizations.
I wonder how much of our world views are shaped by emotions. There is a term for this. It's called emotional reasoning; but, seems to fade away when the level of abstraction increases in some dispute.
It's strange to think that your perception can change while your world views remain the same. Meaning, you can still believe we're all screwed by climate change, and still have an optimistic outlook on some other issues? An overly compartmentalized mind?
I was in a relationship with a person whom I loved very deeply. It was the first time I really knew I loved someone in that kind of way. I screwed up do to my impulsive behavior and I lost their trust. I could not forgive myself. And though I did everything I could possibly do to try and get that trust back and prove to them that I did love them and would probably never feel that way about anyone ever again... It didn't work. They abandoned me at the lowest point of my life, having had no family and becoming homeless, while also being addicted to drugs.
Since I was 12 I was depressed due to too much thinking about my life, and realizing the troubles of the world, and realizing my impotence. I suffer from PTSD as well, due to childhood abuse.
I thought the world could get no worse and I attempted suicide. I woke up a few days later on the verge of death. I am not sure how I survived... I took 180mg of oxycodone, 15mg of Xanax and about 30 other pills that were prescribed to me. And I did a few shots and chugged a beer on top of all that.
After I woke up I was still depressed. But I realized through this depression and through all of this how strong I really was, being able to take care of myself ALONE after I should have been dead.
I realized that these emotions that had been affecting me... I never accepted them. I never accepted their reality. I always could not come to grips with their actuality.
In integrating these emotions into myself, I empowered myself and I become autonomous and independent. I realized that I could conquer my own world, and I didn't have to be chained and unfree like a prisoner to my experiences. I realized that my experiences were me. I realized that my emotions were me. I no longer held onto this ideal me that I knew now to be an illusion.
I remember staring at myself in the mirror. I remember hearing music like I had never heard music ever before. So much then came to me and overwhelmed me. Tears of joy and happiness came to me realizing that I could be and that I didn't need anything but me in this life. I could become to be and be okay with that realizing that I am the final cause of my life.
I grew.
I stumbled a few more times but ever since then I have realized to always accept my desires, regardless of how contradictory and strange they are, or how irrational they are. We are at base irrational. We are emotional... No... We are arational!
I lost everything and I woke up to realizing that I had everything that I would ever need. And now I am a completely different person. I have all of my past within me, but it does not define me. Nothing defines me. I am indefinable. I am all of my possibilities. I am radically free. This is what diverted my life from depression.
I also feel like I've lived my life. I'll accept more good years, for sure, but I know that my death is not all that far away -- a lot of these things will happen after I'm dust. Were I 30 years old, everything being equal, this all would be a lot harder to maintain. There were times during the the 1980s AIDS crisis that I thought I was probably doomed to die in just a few years -- wouldn't make it to 50, maybe. Lots of guys I knew were dying. I am still surprised I didn't get AIDS.
Maybe I am sometimes confusing "relinquishment" with "optimism". I can let go of some concerns, because they are history (like bad jobs), or they are beyond my influence (like CO2 emissions). Yes, I recycle, compost, and add as little garbage to the pile as I can, like any responsible person does. But I know the major reductions have to be decided by people way above me. I've let go of that problem. I've let go of the problems of the Church, too. Capitalism? Not going away tomorrow. Socialism? Dream on. Etc.
I wrote one about 80,000 words. I lost about half of it back in the blast but I am planning on making it way better. You should write one.
But... Congratulations! You found a way back to the surface; you found a new life; you experienced a metanoia, butterfly emerging from its chrysalis. All that takes courage, to accept what is and integrate it into a positive new whole.
All to the good!
I've done lots of research on national gay history, interviewed a batch of people, and have been interviewed myself for some other people's books on local gay history. The trouble is, a lot of my curiosity was sated in the process of doing the research. But yes, I should write the damn book.
Since then I have found someone I love more and whom loves me much more. So I didn't lose the love of my life, but at the time I thought I did!
Glad you are OK, and able to share the story. I've heard that it's the cowards way out; but, it definitely takes some balls to commit suicide.
It is well known that a lot of unpleasant physical symptoms - inflammation, muscle spasm, fever, and so on, are the result of the body's healing processes and defences. So it is quite reasonable to suppose that mental symptoms are similarly the attempt of the mind to heal itself. The question I tend to ask of a depressed person, at some stage is "what are you depressing?" And it is exactly those unacceptable, unbearable feelings that depression protects one from, at the cost, unfortunately, of protecting one from any positive feelings as well. I think of depression as a mind-spasm protecting a mental trauma.
Thanks for telling your story so eloquently.