You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

What is the origin of beauty? Why is it that things are sometimes beautiful?

Isaac Shmukler August 06, 2018 at 23:05 15000 views 67 comments
It might be that beauty doesn't have a general origin. That is to say that things are beautiful for reasons that are numerous as the things are numerous. I believe however, that beauty does have a general origin or at least a few common factors. I am willing to engage in a discussion regarding two questions:
Does beauty have a general origin? If so, then what is it?

Comments (67)

Dimitra August 07, 2018 at 18:50 #203700
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
Deleted User August 07, 2018 at 20:24 #203711
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:03 #203754
Reply to tim wood Beauty is the quality that hold sights or sounds that give rise to a pleasant feeling. More precisely, it is the quality of sights or sounds that give rise to a feeling of appreciation. This addition excludes for example, a pleasant feeling that is due to a sexual stimulation.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:11 #203756
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:15 #203757
Reply to tim wood It is a quality of sights and sounds that depends upon the beholder.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:16 #203758
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:18 #203759
Reply to tim wood It's clearer to put it this way: This is a quality that is defined through the appreciation of the beholder.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:20 #203760
Consider the concept "wanted". What is the definition of "wanted"?
The quality of things that one wants. It is the same by beauty.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:20 #203761
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:21 #203762
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:21 #203763
Reply to tim wood The quality is that it is appreciated just as the example above of "wanted."
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:23 #203764
Reply to tim wood I agree with that. The beholder decides whether something is beautiful. Although it might be yet beautiful since another beholder appreciates it.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:24 #203765
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:25 #203766
I mean that, even if one decided that something isn't beautiful, it yet might be beautiful since someone else decided that it is beautiful.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:26 #203767
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:28 #203769
Reply to tim wood They agree on a broader sens of beautiful: Appreciated by an important group of people.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:28 #203770
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:30 #203771
I should be honest Reply to tim wood Reply to tim wood I think that beautiful has many senses. When one says that something that is importantly accepted as beautiful is not beautiful, this refers to another meaning of beautiful.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:30 #203772
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:32 #203773
I mean that beautiful will be always according to a particular beholder.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:32 #203774
This is like the adjective "tasty."
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:33 #203775
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:34 #203776
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:34 #203777
If there is a disagreement about whether something is tasty it is really not a disagreement and no one is wrong.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:35 #203778
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:35 #203779
...
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:37 #203781
Beautiful is just like tasty i don't want to be more confusing.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:37 #203783
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:38 #203785
I admit that "according" is confusing and should be omitted. I'm sorry for that.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:39 #203786
Beautiful is just like tasty, no one is wrong!
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:40 #203787
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:42 #203788
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:44 #203789
Why "appreciated" is not good enough for you?
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:46 #203791
I agree that we feel that there is a difference between "appreciated" and "beautiful" but we can explain that this is due to the usually similar taste of people regarding beauty.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:46 #203792
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:49 #203795
Now, I didn't get what you mean.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:51 #203796
Anyways, now that we have defined "beauty" (at least partially), can you help me find its general origin?
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:54 #203797
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:56 #203798
Reply to tim wood Let's talk about one individual experiencing beauty, what is this experience's origin?
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:56 #203799
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 00:57 #203800
An important group is not required, unless one wants it to be importantly beautiful.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 00:59 #203801
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 01:01 #203802
If that is what you meant to ask. These sub-experiences are reactions, I would say.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 01:03 #203804
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 01:05 #203805
Reply to tim wood There could be a cultural factor or some other reasons causing individuals to react differently to the same ballerina.
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 01:08 #203806
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 01:12 #203807
Let's look through the entire life of a single individual, why is it that some things are beautiful to his eyes and some aren't?
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 01:17 #203809
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 01:23 #203812
Reply to tim wood I will try to answer my question and you are welcome to comment.
I have found a common factor to the phenomenon of beauty: The extent by which the object seems to be designed thoughtfully. The more an object gives this impression the more it will be beautiful.
This is of course, not scientific, but many examples confirm this theory.
Again, the more there is an impression that there is a "thought behind" the object, the more the object will be beautiful.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 01:24 #203813
This is why sophistication and symmetry very often contribute to beauty.
A chaotic art is not a disproof to this theory since its chaotic effect is intentional.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 01:27 #203814
Any intended simplicity is also merely another kind of sophistication.
Isaac Shmukler August 08, 2018 at 01:42 #203820
Quoting tim wood
is the beautiful a matter of psychology?
What is the other possibility?
(I am afraid that we will continue only later since I have to go now.)

Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 13:54 #204041
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Aleksander Kvam August 08, 2018 at 14:42 #204053
Reply to tim wood t.v. movies and fashion magazines probally has a hand in this...
BrianW August 08, 2018 at 21:08 #204134
Reply to Isaac Shmukler ; Reply to tim wood ; Reply to Aleksander Kvam

Beauty can be both objective and subjective. Objectivity and subjectivity do not necessarily negate each other. Suppose we defined beauty as the aspect of attraction in something. Isn't that as objective as it is subjective?
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 21:52 #204152
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
BrianW August 08, 2018 at 22:58 #204177
Reply to tim wood

Beauty is a relationship - both objective and subjective. Because everything in LIFE is dependent upon each other, therefore, everything in LIFE has the capacity to attract another and has beauty as an inherent quality. However, there is also the beauty that is a real-time relationship between aspects that are in a particular phase of activity/interrelation - this is relative and subjective.

For example: Suppose you live somewhere in the Alps and outside your house is a most captivating scenery. However, due to the demands of your employment there is never time to enjoy that beauty. Now, also, suppose your neighbour is a work/stay-at-home individual who wakes up every morning and meditates to the beautiful scenery. Though such is the predominant state of their relation to the Alps' beauty, it does not take away from it. At any time, should they wish and for whatever reasons, any of them could ignore that beauty as much as they could appreciate it. That is what free-will is about - CHOICE. To me, ugly just means a lack of appreciation!
Deleted User August 08, 2018 at 23:29 #204183
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Corvus August 08, 2018 at 23:51 #204185
To me, beauty is just my feeling about something. The feeling, like all other emotions, vacillates through time and circumstances changes.
BrianW August 09, 2018 at 02:44 #204210
Reply to tim wood

You fail to understand how both absoluteness and relativity, or objectivity and subjectivity, interrelate with each other. An inherent quality is also a relationship. To give an example closer to home:

Dna is an inherent quality in our genetic make-up. However, it is also a relationship in the sense that multifarious dominant and recessive factors combine to give the specific outcome that we are. It expresses both the overall person as well as the multiple channels of activity.

Allow me to explain in principles:

The truth, though singular and unyielding, cannot be expressed only in unity. If that were the case, then there would be no multiplicity. The ultimate is also the fundamental; the greatest is the simplest. That which is absolute is also the most relative. Hence LIFE is not just the whole but the individual as well.

Beauty is an aspect of the absolute, but only with respect to its relative aspects. If beauty was the quality of attraction in the absolute only, what would it be attracting? There would be nothing beyond itself to attract, else, it would not be absolute. However, because it operates in the whole through the many, it is both a principle and a relationship. It defines both identity and activity.
Another analogy would be a comparison with sense perception. Not only are we aware of our whole body as one, but also of each appendage independently though not detached. We can move one arm or leg while the other remains dormant even though sensation is continuously active in both.
The fundamental principle of beauty is the same - it is present within all life, though, by its activity, particular areas can be exemplified over others depending on choice.

As an identity, we can speak of that or that being the beauty of something. As a relationship, we can also speak of beauty as being in our perception, that is, in our minds, thoughts, emotions, feelings, sentiments, etc. Unfortunately, our language, as yet, does not filter perspective and cannot differentiate between subjectivity and objectivity without giving a lengthy and often tiresome discussion.

[When science discovered the atom, it proclaimed it to be the fundamental of life. Years later, simpler configurations have been discovered, but because the language is still the same, we find that we keep shifting from one ultimate to another. Scientists want to claim that what they have discovered is the furthest in human knowledge, though, over the years, philosophy has proved that literal fact and practical fact are not the same. Science works in literal activity while philosophy works in practical activity. Hence, philosophy, however primitive it may be, realized that the world was a globe thousands of years before science saw that it was.]
Deleted User August 09, 2018 at 18:32 #204379
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
BrianW August 09, 2018 at 20:59 #204399
Reply to tim wood

Instead of reducing things to fit your perspective, try expanding your perspective to include things. I believe it is how to increase our knowledge base.

The beauty of common language is, even though it does not express common thought, it does, however, express common experience. It is a fact of common human experience that beauty is a thing (identity). Hence we say, "that is beauty," or "that is not beauty,".
We also say, "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder." This expresses another fact of human experience, which is that, beauty is a relationship.

The principles I have deduced may not be agreeable but how can we doubt experience? Unless, perhaps, my understanding of it is mistaken... ?
Aleksander Kvam August 09, 2018 at 23:49 #204424
im a bit dim :) but could anyone explain the "objective" and the "subjective" for me :) its "beauty" and "beautiful" right?
Aleksander Kvam August 09, 2018 at 23:52 #204426
Quoting BrianW
beauty is a relationship


...if a relationship is beautiful? :razz:
BrianW August 10, 2018 at 02:08 #204484
:halo:
Tim3003 November 25, 2018 at 20:53 #231091
Keats said: "Truth is beauty, beauty truth. That's all ye know on Earth and all ye need to know." I think he was right, although he couldn't know why. What we see as beautiful attracts us, ugliness repels us. The reason is simple; evolutionary necessity. Clearly, beauty in a person matches what we as individuals need to produce and raise children. More abstractly: what defines a beautiful day? Most would agree it is sunshine, warmth, a pleasant comfortable open location. By contrast an ugly day would be dark, cold, wet, in a hostile - perhaps confined location. It's easy to see how these extremes match with our necessities for survival. Cold, dark, wet - all good for sudden death via predators, pneumonia, damage to shelter etc. Whereas sunshine, calm, open countryside - good for safety and helpful to grow our crops, build shelter and so on. Keats can't have been too hot on Darwinism, but I'm sure he'd have seen in it the truth he instinctively knew.
One here November 25, 2018 at 21:13 #231096
Beauty is this.
Order, disorder, order, disorder.....
It goes this way.
For example I have a tree farm. If I look at the distance i see mess, chaos, but when i come closer, i see this beautiful trees, each one. and so on.