I thought my shock content was all used up to until I saw that. And then last night I saw a story about a private youth detention centre (i.e. children's jail) in Pennsylvania where the owners paid judges millions of dollars to lock up kids for up to a year on the basis of minor transgressions, for example, writing an online page mocking their school principal (again, so much for American free speech). The payments were due to the fact that the more inmates there were, the more money for the prison contractor got: Viva Capitalism! On top of that, the kids were kept in beyond the length of the sentences given on the discretion of the prison employees. This is the kind of capitalist nightmare the far right want to turn the whole country into.
Reply to Baden I had to study the American penal situation once. It was horrific, and remains so. It makes me sad when I say that although I haven't heard of that particular case, I'm also not surprised by it.
And then last night I saw a story about a private youth detention centre (i.e. children's jail) in Pennsylvania where the owners paid judges millions of dollars to lock up kids for up to a year on the basis of minor transgressions, for example, writing an online page mocking their school principal (again, so much for American free speech). The payments were due to the fact that the more inmates there were, the more money for the prison contractor got: Viva Capitalism! On top of that, the kids were kept in beyond the length of the sentences given on the discretion of the prison employees. This is the kind of capitalist nightmare the far right want to turn the whole country into.
The judge (aka Federal inmate #15008-067 F) was sentenced to 28 years in prison. He was no more a product of capitalism than any other sociopathic kidnapper.
He was no more a product of capitalism than any other sociopathic kidnapper.
Except Mr. Ciavarella received bribes ($$$) from the owners of private, for-profit juvenile for sentencing children to extended stays for minor offences. Hard to imagine that a situation in which there is a profitable market for throwing children into prison isn't interrelated to the unrestrained ideal of Capitalism.
As per Maw's answer, I wasn't decrying his criminal tendencies but the situation in which they were allowed to flourish. He, as a sociopathic kidnapper, was allowed to do what he did for far too long out in the open in full view of society because he was enabled by a sick system. I'm glad he eventually got 28 years but it should have been more and imprisoning people should not be a for-profit enterprise as it opens up opportunities for this kind of corrupt behaviour.
Reply to Baden Typical nanny state! What's the world come to when you can't throw a kid in jail for a year or two in exchange for money because he had the cheek to answer back?
Hard to imagine that a situation in which there is a profitable market for throwing children into prison isn't interrelated to the unrestrained ideal of Capitalism.
A communist regime with a corrupt and abusive judicial system where people are murdered and abused en masse is really hard to imagine.
I'm glad he eventually got 28 years but it should have been more and imprisoning people should not be a for-profit enterprise as it opens up opportunities for this kind of corrupt behaviour.
We should rethink the entire system because of a single sociopath?
There were two judges involved not one. But you shouldn't need to wait for these kind of abuses to understand that imprisoning people for profit will inevitably result in greedy people taking advantage of the system and causing harm. Your predominantly for-profit healthcare suffers from the same problem, which is why it's not rated even in the top twenty in the world and is by the estimation of your own politicians a complete mess. Again, no-one's recommending communism here, just saying look at the non-profit systems that have demonstrably better outcomes in Europe, particularly in Northern Europe and copy them. It's like you're standing there trying to play soccer with your butt while the other team is doing it far better with their feet and you wonder why you're losing. Don't be afraid of taking on better ideas that are staring you in the face.
A communist regime with a corrupt and abusive judicial system where people are murdered and abused en masse is really hard to imagine.
It's hard to take these posts seriously.
Yet another tired "whataboutism" comment, in which the poster, unable to accept moral flaws of capital accumulation, needs to point to another political extreme that no one here supports.
An example of a country with far better outcomes than yours in terms of their prison system is Norway. This is the type of thing if not the exact thing you should be aiming for. Look and learn. The answers are out there and they don't lie in profit for punishment. It takes a large investment in money and intelligence and the patience to allow it to pay off over time.
But you shouldn't need to wait for these kind of abuses to understand that imprisoning people for profit will inevitably result in greedy people taking advantage of the system and causing harm.
The vast majority of prisons are state run.
Judges have massive power and preside over multi-million dollar disputes and decide people's fates all the time. A judge on the take in any system can take bribes. This isn't an American or capitalistic phenomenon, but is actually seen far more in non-democratic, government controlled economies. Regardless, your finding this isolated abuse evidence of a systemic flaw is empirically unfounded and reveals a general anti-American bias, or, more generously, a poor understanding of the American criminal justice system.
Or Norway and Australia, or Norway and Japan. Odd then that they have similar and similarly better health care systems than your country, isn't it? What's holding you back is not some magical retrograde cultural gene, it's your bad choices along with continuous negative thinking and excuses like you're demonstrating here. Where's that American can-do attitude when it's most needed?
I know state-run prisons are in a majority (though you still do that poorly as is evidenced by your 70% recidivism rate vs. Norway's 20%), but I'm objecting to a system that allows any for-profit prisons. And then I was broadening the conversation by pointing out that other countries that are less rampantly capitalist do these kinds of things better in general. But you seem to consider that as some kind of an insult. So, OK, you tell me then what is the ideal model of a prison system you would like to see in the US and how does it differ from the one you have now?
Whose opinion are you mocking? Is there someone who doesn't find the situation as reprehensible as you?
No one in particular. Don't read too much into it.
Actually, Jesus. I was mocking the opinion of Jesus Christ, who it turns out is not all he's cracked up to be. Someone ought to teach the little rapscallion a lesson. Perhaps a trip to the clink would set him straight. For the right price, that can be arranged. Just say the word.
By the way @Hanover, you know the more you show how much you hate us doing the superior European thing, the more I'm going to do it? You do know that, right? :hearts:
So, OK, you tell me then what is the ideal model of a prison system you would like to see in the US and how does it differ from the one you have now?
Ideally we wouldn't have prisons, but if we must have prisons, I'd propose one comprised disproportionately of inner city minorities, where rape is common, it's a rite of passage to attend, and it'd be a family tradition, passed down primarily through the male line. I suspect you advocate something in between the heaven and hell, the ideal and the reality, but I'm a man of extremes and custom, and I go with the America I know.
So for real, the problem lies not in prisons, although tinkering with reforms is always a fun thing to do, and actually Republicans are as progressive as any, considering prisons tend to bleed tax money if left to grow. The hardest streets of Norway look nothing like the semi-hard and only partially aroused streets of random city USA and the comparisons are few. It would be difficult to fail as the warden of a Norway prison and difficult to succeed as a warden of a Peoria prison. The solution must occur well before the failure sounded by the slamming of the prison door.
You need to lay off the Guinness. You sound like you just emerged from a bog caked in mud never having spoken to another human being in your life. So, the problem does (partly) lie in prisons. Higher recidivism rates = more crime, and crime is the major problem here, right? You are at about 70% and Norway at about 20%. So, don't you think this might go some way to explaining why their hardest streets are only partially aroused (to use your amusingly implicative Freudian lingo :100: )? Because they know how to reduce crime rates and they use their prison system to do it? Your reason then for not using changes in prison policy to reduce crime rates boils down to "because crime rates are high". See the problem.
Emotionally, I admit I'm all for the type of retributive punishment you primarily dish out over there, but I know that it doesn't work and it punishes the unnecessary victims of repeated crime as much as the prisoners it's aimed at. And even if it did work, you still lock up too many people in conditions that end up being schools for crime. And then your solution is to build more prisons because there's more crime. Or in your case, your solution is to pretend the problem lies exclusively elsewhere in some cultural no man's land you have no clue how to access let alone deal with.
That's at best defeatist. Yes, there are other reasons for crime including lack of investment in inner cities, lack of opportunity, poor schooling, shitty individual choices, etc. but if you want to solve it, you take a multi-pronged approach, and that includes prisons. And high crime rates are more not less reason to get on that and not accept the status quo. You keep telling us how great America is, so why do you accept failure so easily? I'm starting to feel I'm more American than you and you really do belong in that quiet corner of the Irish bog you've just emerged from with only potatoes and sheep and some various works by Sigmund Freud for company.
By the way Hanover, you know the more you show how much you hate us doing the superior European thing, the more I'm going to do it? You do know that, right? :hearts:
Thank you for the unintended enlightenment. :heart:
That was a somewhat ironic joke considering my traditional lack of patriotic fervour, but the points of substance I made stand. It's not just a claim that things like recidivism rates and healthcare outcomes are better in Europe. A lot of that is empirically measurable. And on those measures we do it better at least in Northern and Western Europe (I'm sure your sons will confirm that with you). My beef with Hanover is he doesn't believe in the US's ability to catch up on those measures. I do. So, I'm not really trying to tease anyone on this. It's not us vs. them. It's a matter of being constructive. I'm more than happy for Europe to steal the good ideas you have, and you should do the same with us.
Put it another way, if you can't recognize your own country's or your own leader's faults because you are stuck with some kind of patriotic block, you're doomed. You'll never progress or achieve anything and will continue to make the same mistakes over and over. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case here but it's something to be aware of and resist.
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 18, 2018 at 14:14#1980130 likes
Anti-Trump is not anti-American, it's pro-American as far as I'm concerned especially after recent events. But we're off-topic. Going back to the prison system. Do you think your prison system could be improved? If so, how?
ArguingWAristotleTiffJuly 18, 2018 at 14:30#1980200 likes
Do you think your prison system could be improved? If so, how?
Our prison system would be improved if it was taken out of the hands of private- for profit companies managing the incarceration system. Why?
A for profit prison system is detrimental to both the incarcerated citizen and the state that has them incarcerated. For those incarcerated, there is no incentive for the company managing them to acknowledge good behavior because a full jail cell is a paying jail cell. When there is a need for more jail cells, more prisons are built, rather then trying to rehabilitate those incarcerated.
A for profit prison system encourages those who police the state to lean on illegal means of filling those cells by the use of profiling, discrimination and fabrication of facts to support their continued business.
Totally agree. My other major point was about retributive punishment and recidivism rates. That we should aim for lower recidivism rates as Nordic countries do because the ones who suffer most from high recidivism rates are the extra victims of the extra crimes of reoffenders. In other words, I would support better conditions in prisons even if that meant prisoners had an easier time there if they could at the same time be weaned off crime instead of schooled on how to do more because I'm less interested in hurting them than lowering the overall crime rate which is driven by re-offenders.
You need to lay off the Guinness. You sound like you just emerged from a bog caked in mud never having spoken to another human being in your life. So, the problem does (partly) lie in prisons. Higher recidivism rates = more crime, and crime is the major problem here, right? You are at about 70% and Norway at about 20%. So, don't you think this might go some way to explaining why their hardest streets are only partially aroused (to use your amusingly implicative Freudian lingo :100: )? Because they know how to reduce crime rates and they use their prison system to do it? Your reason then for not using changes in prison policy to reduce crime rates boils down to "because crime rates are high". See the problem.
You accuse me of being hopelessly sheltered, yet you wish to compare Norway to the US, as if it offers the US some direction, yet the US has never thought to consider it. A largely homogenous, educated society comprised of those with generally shared values is likely to get along quite well with or without any great innovation or leadership in the criminal justice context. I live in a relatively crime free area myself, and I'd suspect that the city jail is largely empty in a given week except for the occasional drunk. Perhaps I should call the folks in downtown Atlanta and have them tour my little town so that they can figure out how to bring their crime rate down just like mine. If only they would leave their four walls and venture out to the burbs, they'd see how to do it better. Quoting Baden
You keep telling us how great America is, so why do you accept failure so easily? I'm starting to feel I'm more American than you and you really do belong in that quiet corner of the Irish bog you've just emerged from with only potatoes and sheep and some various works by Sigmund Freud for company.
America is a great big place, so it's not like every state does things the same. There have been plenty of innovations. I'm not just throwing my hands up and giving up, but I'm more just rejecting your claims that the answers are just sitting there before us in a Scandinavian ice field, but we're all just too stubborn to see it.
We need to transition from criminalizing drug use to offering government controlled rehab. Money needs to be channeled into inner cities for job creation and urban renewal.
There isnt any political will to do any of that at present. There's a socialist-democratic movement appearing among millennials. Maybe once they take over...
Can you deal with the point about retributive punishment and recidivism and stop going on about the fact that Norway is different from the US? Forget Norway if it makes you happy. How do you think you can reduce your sky-high recidivism rates?
Alright, I'll forget about it, but now I'm confused because there's a land mass without a name.Quoting Baden
How do you think you can reduce your sky-high recidivism rates?
It's sort of like how do we get the inner city schools to perform as well as the suburban schools. If we swapped all the students and put the inner city kids in the suburban schools and sent all the suburban kids down to the city, the dropout rates and performance results would stay the same among the students. What this means is that the differing schools, each with all their wonderful ideas and teachers, don't really amount to squat. It's the students as formed by their parents, their upbringing, their values, and their families. The same holds true to the amazing results of non-recidivism achieved in that now nameless place with the breathtaking fjords. They were going to get those results regardless of what they did. It's like asking how do I coach a team in the World Cup with all the greatest players of all time. I just show up and the wins happen.
The way I fix the crime problem is by fixing the societal problems. The prisons can't fix them once they show up at the door. If your kid is a hellion in high school, the time to have fixed him done came and went as they say not where I'm from.
Comments (36)
I thought my shock content was all used up to until I saw that. And then last night I saw a story about a private youth detention centre (i.e. children's jail) in Pennsylvania where the owners paid judges millions of dollars to lock up kids for up to a year on the basis of minor transgressions, for example, writing an online page mocking their school principal (again, so much for American free speech). The payments were due to the fact that the more inmates there were, the more money for the prison contractor got: Viva Capitalism! On top of that, the kids were kept in beyond the length of the sentences given on the discretion of the prison employees. This is the kind of capitalist nightmare the far right want to turn the whole country into.
The judge (aka Federal inmate #15008-067 F) was sentenced to 28 years in prison. He was no more a product of capitalism than any other sociopathic kidnapper.
Except Mr. Ciavarella received bribes ($$$) from the owners of private, for-profit juvenile for sentencing children to extended stays for minor offences. Hard to imagine that a situation in which there is a profitable market for throwing children into prison isn't interrelated to the unrestrained ideal of Capitalism.
As per Maw's answer, I wasn't decrying his criminal tendencies but the situation in which they were allowed to flourish. He, as a sociopathic kidnapper, was allowed to do what he did for far too long out in the open in full view of society because he was enabled by a sick system. I'm glad he eventually got 28 years but it should have been more and imprisoning people should not be a for-profit enterprise as it opens up opportunities for this kind of corrupt behaviour.
A communist regime with a corrupt and abusive judicial system where people are murdered and abused en masse is really hard to imagine.
It's hard to take these posts seriously.
We should rethink the entire system because of a single sociopath?
There were two judges involved not one. But you shouldn't need to wait for these kind of abuses to understand that imprisoning people for profit will inevitably result in greedy people taking advantage of the system and causing harm. Your predominantly for-profit healthcare suffers from the same problem, which is why it's not rated even in the top twenty in the world and is by the estimation of your own politicians a complete mess. Again, no-one's recommending communism here, just saying look at the non-profit systems that have demonstrably better outcomes in Europe, particularly in Northern Europe and copy them. It's like you're standing there trying to play soccer with your butt while the other team is doing it far better with their feet and you wonder why you're losing. Don't be afraid of taking on better ideas that are staring you in the face.
Don't worry, I've called my favorite judge and Sap's going down. I just need you to wire me a couple of grand though... :grimace:
Yet another tired "whataboutism" comment, in which the poster, unable to accept moral flaws of capital accumulation, needs to point to another political extreme that no one here supports.
An example of a country with far better outcomes than yours in terms of their prison system is Norway. This is the type of thing if not the exact thing you should be aiming for. Look and learn. The answers are out there and they don't lie in profit for punishment. It takes a large investment in money and intelligence and the patience to allow it to pay off over time.
https://www.businessinsider.in/Why-Norways-Prison-System-Is-So-Successful/articleshow/45483042.cms
The vast majority of prisons are state run.
Judges have massive power and preside over multi-million dollar disputes and decide people's fates all the time. A judge on the take in any system can take bribes. This isn't an American or capitalistic phenomenon, but is actually seen far more in non-democratic, government controlled economies. Regardless, your finding this isolated abuse evidence of a systemic flaw is empirically unfounded and reveals a general anti-American bias, or, more generously, a poor understanding of the American criminal justice system.
Or Norway and Australia, or Norway and Japan. Odd then that they have similar and similarly better health care systems than your country, isn't it? What's holding you back is not some magical retrograde cultural gene, it's your bad choices along with continuous negative thinking and excuses like you're demonstrating here. Where's that American can-do attitude when it's most needed?
I know state-run prisons are in a majority (though you still do that poorly as is evidenced by your 70% recidivism rate vs. Norway's 20%), but I'm objecting to a system that allows any for-profit prisons. And then I was broadening the conversation by pointing out that other countries that are less rampantly capitalist do these kinds of things better in general. But you seem to consider that as some kind of an insult. So, OK, you tell me then what is the ideal model of a prison system you would like to see in the US and how does it differ from the one you have now?
No one in particular. Don't read too much into it.
Actually, Jesus. I was mocking the opinion of Jesus Christ, who it turns out is not all he's cracked up to be. Someone ought to teach the little rapscallion a lesson. Perhaps a trip to the clink would set him straight. For the right price, that can be arranged. Just say the word.
:grin: Thirty silver dollars I believe.
Ideally we wouldn't have prisons, but if we must have prisons, I'd propose one comprised disproportionately of inner city minorities, where rape is common, it's a rite of passage to attend, and it'd be a family tradition, passed down primarily through the male line. I suspect you advocate something in between the heaven and hell, the ideal and the reality, but I'm a man of extremes and custom, and I go with the America I know.
So for real, the problem lies not in prisons, although tinkering with reforms is always a fun thing to do, and actually Republicans are as progressive as any, considering prisons tend to bleed tax money if left to grow. The hardest streets of Norway look nothing like the semi-hard and only partially aroused streets of random city USA and the comparisons are few. It would be difficult to fail as the warden of a Norway prison and difficult to succeed as a warden of a Peoria prison. The solution must occur well before the failure sounded by the slamming of the prison door.
You need to lay off the Guinness. You sound like you just emerged from a bog caked in mud never having spoken to another human being in your life. So, the problem does (partly) lie in prisons. Higher recidivism rates = more crime, and crime is the major problem here, right? You are at about 70% and Norway at about 20%. So, don't you think this might go some way to explaining why their hardest streets are only partially aroused (to use your amusingly implicative Freudian lingo :100: )? Because they know how to reduce crime rates and they use their prison system to do it? Your reason then for not using changes in prison policy to reduce crime rates boils down to "because crime rates are high". See the problem.
Emotionally, I admit I'm all for the type of retributive punishment you primarily dish out over there, but I know that it doesn't work and it punishes the unnecessary victims of repeated crime as much as the prisoners it's aimed at. And even if it did work, you still lock up too many people in conditions that end up being schools for crime. And then your solution is to build more prisons because there's more crime. Or in your case, your solution is to pretend the problem lies exclusively elsewhere in some cultural no man's land you have no clue how to access let alone deal with.
That's at best defeatist. Yes, there are other reasons for crime including lack of investment in inner cities, lack of opportunity, poor schooling, shitty individual choices, etc. but if you want to solve it, you take a multi-pronged approach, and that includes prisons. And high crime rates are more not less reason to get on that and not accept the status quo. You keep telling us how great America is, so why do you accept failure so easily? I'm starting to feel I'm more American than you and you really do belong in that quiet corner of the Irish bog you've just emerged from with only potatoes and sheep and some various works by Sigmund Freud for company.
And we all know where Freud, sheep and lack of women lead to. :zip:
Thank you for the unintended enlightenment. :heart:
That was a somewhat ironic joke considering my traditional lack of patriotic fervour, but the points of substance I made stand. It's not just a claim that things like recidivism rates and healthcare outcomes are better in Europe. A lot of that is empirically measurable. And on those measures we do it better at least in Northern and Western Europe (I'm sure your sons will confirm that with you). My beef with Hanover is he doesn't believe in the US's ability to catch up on those measures. I do. So, I'm not really trying to tease anyone on this. It's not us vs. them. It's a matter of being constructive. I'm more than happy for Europe to steal the good ideas you have, and you should do the same with us.
Put it another way, if you can't recognize your own country's or your own leader's faults because you are stuck with some kind of patriotic block, you're doomed. You'll never progress or achieve anything and will continue to make the same mistakes over and over. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case here but it's something to be aware of and resist.
Have you been reading the posts of the last two weeks? [s]Anti Americanism is running and is being encouraged to run rampant.[/s]
Anti-Trump is not anti-American, it's pro-American as far as I'm concerned especially after recent events. But we're off-topic. Going back to the prison system. Do you think your prison system could be improved? If so, how?
Recent events have blurred the line between the two.
Quoting Baden
Our prison system would be improved if it was taken out of the hands of private- for profit companies managing the incarceration system. Why?
A for profit prison system is detrimental to both the incarcerated citizen and the state that has them incarcerated. For those incarcerated, there is no incentive for the company managing them to acknowledge good behavior because a full jail cell is a paying jail cell. When there is a need for more jail cells, more prisons are built, rather then trying to rehabilitate those incarcerated.
A for profit prison system encourages those who police the state to lean on illegal means of filling those cells by the use of profiling, discrimination and fabrication of facts to support their continued business.
Totally agree. My other major point was about retributive punishment and recidivism rates. That we should aim for lower recidivism rates as Nordic countries do because the ones who suffer most from high recidivism rates are the extra victims of the extra crimes of reoffenders. In other words, I would support better conditions in prisons even if that meant prisoners had an easier time there if they could at the same time be weaned off crime instead of schooled on how to do more because I'm less interested in hurting them than lowering the overall crime rate which is driven by re-offenders.
You accuse me of being hopelessly sheltered, yet you wish to compare Norway to the US, as if it offers the US some direction, yet the US has never thought to consider it. A largely homogenous, educated society comprised of those with generally shared values is likely to get along quite well with or without any great innovation or leadership in the criminal justice context. I live in a relatively crime free area myself, and I'd suspect that the city jail is largely empty in a given week except for the occasional drunk. Perhaps I should call the folks in downtown Atlanta and have them tour my little town so that they can figure out how to bring their crime rate down just like mine. If only they would leave their four walls and venture out to the burbs, they'd see how to do it better.
Quoting Baden
America is a great big place, so it's not like every state does things the same. There have been plenty of innovations. I'm not just throwing my hands up and giving up, but I'm more just rejecting your claims that the answers are just sitting there before us in a Scandinavian ice field, but we're all just too stubborn to see it.
There isnt any political will to do any of that at present. There's a socialist-democratic movement appearing among millennials. Maybe once they take over...
Can you deal with the point about retributive punishment and recidivism and stop going on about the fact that Norway is different from the US? Forget Norway if it makes you happy. How do you think you can reduce your sky-high recidivism rates?
Alright, I'll forget about it, but now I'm confused because there's a land mass without a name.Quoting Baden
It's sort of like how do we get the inner city schools to perform as well as the suburban schools. If we swapped all the students and put the inner city kids in the suburban schools and sent all the suburban kids down to the city, the dropout rates and performance results would stay the same among the students. What this means is that the differing schools, each with all their wonderful ideas and teachers, don't really amount to squat. It's the students as formed by their parents, their upbringing, their values, and their families. The same holds true to the amazing results of non-recidivism achieved in that now nameless place with the breathtaking fjords. They were going to get those results regardless of what they did. It's like asking how do I coach a team in the World Cup with all the greatest players of all time. I just show up and the wins happen.
The way I fix the crime problem is by fixing the societal problems. The prisons can't fix them once they show up at the door. If your kid is a hellion in high school, the time to have fixed him done came and went as they say not where I'm from.