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Epistemology solved.

Kaiser Basileus July 10, 2018 at 18:25 12300 views 89 comments
Epistemology is all about certainty, not “Truth”. Real Truth is inaccessible to us because of physical and mental filters between us and the real world, namely biological, cultural, and psychological.

There are only two ways of knowing, empirical probability and logical necessity.

Some claim a third, revelation, but this cannot be tested or adequately expressed externally and cannot therefore be verified as reliable.

Empirical probability is the realm of science. It is that things keep happening the same way. As we increase the resolution of our instruments, either outward/upward or downward/inward, we effectively increase the size of our reality as well as the level of certainty we can have about it. We increase truth, for all intents and purposes.

Logical necessity is semantic - the words mean what they mean, but absolute. It is not possible for a circle with three sides to exist, by definition. The logical premise that makes this necessarily true is based on the identical foundation as science - it keeps working.

Statistics is a way of quantifying our level of certainty, whether in science replicability or emotional anecdote.

To the extent we use patterns internally, internal versions of words suffice and they need only be internally consistent sufficient for internal purposes. To be used externally, they must be externally consistent (that is, accurately represent the material/sensable/testable world sufficient for whatever purpose they’re being used toward), and the extent to which we agree on them is the extent to which we can communicate effectively.

When making decisions, a certainty of 51% is as good as 100% because nothing may exceed it. However, certainty is not actually a percentage, but a range (for which a percentage may stand in at the average). You may be between 25-60% sure of one thing and 44-78% sure of another, contradictory explanation, for example. When you have an average level of certainty sufficient to outweigh other options, this is called epistemological warrant. It means that you are justified in making the decision or in accepting the fact as true.

Comments (89)

Deleted User July 10, 2018 at 19:28 #195745
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Kaiser Basileus July 10, 2018 at 21:25 #195764
I'm sorry you didn't understand but everything you mention is perfectly accounted for. I know there are better ways to explore the terminology but "truth" v "Truth" or "reality" v "Reality" is the best way I've found to express it. A fact is a piece of truth just as a choice is a piece of freedom. There is no difference otherwise.
Banno July 10, 2018 at 23:52 #195787
Quoting tim wood
You're aware of the contradictions you have stepped into, yes?


No.

(Edit: a detailed critique of the OP starts at https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/199489)
Janus July 11, 2018 at 00:29 #195792
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Real Truth is inaccessible to us because of physical and mental filters between us and the real world, namely biological, cultural, and psychological.


By saying there is an inaccessible "real world" you are reifying the determinacy of the experienced world as an absolute actuality. I don't think this is legitimate. If there is a reality independent of us it would seem to be a dynamic potentiality, not a determinate actuality. Determinate actuality exists only within the experienced world.

So, if the real is a dynamic potentiality which we are part of, then the world of human experience is a "biologically, culturally and psychologically" actualized potential, not a "filtered" (and by implication possibly illusory) version of some absolutely independent actuality.
Kaiser Basileus July 11, 2018 at 02:01 #195812
Determinate actuality exists only within the experienced world - to us. We have every reason to believe it exists prior to and beyond us. Empirical probability will get us as far as what we experience. Logical necessity can carry us the rest of the way.

Banno July 11, 2018 at 02:02 #195813
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Determinate actuality exists only within the experienced world


Are you sure?
Deleted User July 11, 2018 at 02:34 #195816
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Banno July 11, 2018 at 02:47 #195820
Reply to tim wood The Tractatus thread would be a good place for @Kaiser Basileus to start.

Compare Quoting Kaiser Basileus
A fact is a piece of truth
against "The world is everything that is the case".
Streetlight July 11, 2018 at 03:00 #195823
The OP is a fine series of entirely unargued-for assertions. Shame there is nothing to discuss as a result.
Banno July 11, 2018 at 03:05 #195825
It's what the author does next that counts. Do they stop and think or blunder on?

Streetlight July 11, 2018 at 03:18 #195829
Reply to Banno Sweet summer lamb, you think there is hope!
Deleted User July 11, 2018 at 03:27 #195831
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Banno July 11, 2018 at 03:33 #195838
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
There are only two ways of knowing, empirical probability and logical necessity.


Is that you know you are writing in English a logical necessity or a mere probability?

I suggest it is neither, and that as a result, there are more than two ways of knowing.
Banno July 11, 2018 at 03:33 #195839
Reply to StreetlightX It's what I do.
Banno July 11, 2018 at 03:37 #195841
Quoting tim wood
But I do suppose that a decent respect for the limitations of most of us (i.e., me) would place some restraint on your instinct for irony


Damn. Can't find the ladder to climb back down to your level. :wink:

Shouldn't have thrown it away.

I didn't say the Tractatus would be easy; I said it might be one place from which to proceed. Of course, there are others.
Srap Tasmaner July 11, 2018 at 03:54 #195848
Reply to Kaiser Basileus
Have a look at the SEP article on Formal Epistemology

Here's the first paragraph:

Formal epistemology explores knowledge and reasoning using “formal” tools, tools from math and logic. For example, a formal epistemologist might use probability theory to explain how scientific reasoning works. Or she might use modal logic to defend a particular theory of knowledge.


Quoting Kaiser Basileus
certainty is not actually a percentage, but a range


This might be trouble though. I think it turns out that to go this way, you need confidence to be quantifiable. Ramsey argues for this view in "Truth and Probability", which you should read as soon as possible. The principal arguments are based on wagering, but there's also this, which I cannot resist quoting:

I am at a cross-roads and do not know the way; but I rather think one of the two ways is right. I propose therefore to go that way but keep my eyes open for someone to ask; if now I see someone half a mile away over the fields, whether I turn aside to ask him will depend on the relative inconvenience of going out of my way to cross the fields or continuing on the wrong road if it is the wrong road. But it will also depend on how confident I am that I am in the right; and clearly the more confident I am of this the less distance I should be willing to go from the road to check my opinion. I propose therefore to use the distance I would be prepared to go to ask, as a measure of the confidence of my opinion
Banno July 11, 2018 at 04:23 #195852
Quoting tim wood
Would you accept that every fact is an historical fact (and no fact is non- or a-historical)?


No.
Janus July 11, 2018 at 05:17 #195853
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Determinate actuality exists only within the experienced world - to us. We have every reason to believe it exists prior to and beyond us. Empirical probability will get us as far as what we experience. Logical necessity can carry us the rest of the way.


Is anything determinate beyond its being determined? Perhaps you are thinking instead of something else:determinability. I'd say that what is potential becomes actual in the act of being determined. It is not only humans that determine; all life does, so when I referred to 'the experienced world" I was not confining that to the humanly experienced world.

So, if determinate actuality exists only in the experienced world; it is determinable potentiality that gives rise to it. It is determinable potentiality that "exists prior to and beyond us". I don't see what logical necessity has to do with: I think the idea of logical necessity is bogus. Logic is a purely formal abstraction from determinate actuality.
Kaiser Basileus July 11, 2018 at 05:30 #195855
Reply to Srap Tasmaner I'd call that part of "Spiritual Math" (tiny.cc/ontology)
Kaiser Basileus July 11, 2018 at 05:33 #195856
Reply to Janus Simpler to stick with the human context for this, otherwise it's a bog. I'd say you "observe things into being". All things are a pattern with a purpose and the resolution of the purpose determines the resolution of the pattern. In other words, The stuff is there, but ti becomes things when we contextualise it into our phenomenology. As for logic, it "just works", and that's as good as you can ask a system to be.
Deleted User July 11, 2018 at 12:25 #195911
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Banno July 11, 2018 at 21:59 #196038
Reply to tim wood Why are we doing this?

five is less than six; iron oxidises in the presence of oxygen; animals with hearts also have kidneys.
Deleted User July 12, 2018 at 01:35 #196076
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Banno July 12, 2018 at 04:08 #196095

Quoting tim wood
Would you accept that every fact is an historical fact (and no fact is non- or a-historical)?


Quoting tim wood
Five is less than six is true. Iron oxidises in the presence of oxygen is a fact. Were I the sort of person whose business it was to know that iron oxidises & etc., I should have observed and described it. Subsequently the only way to know is to know the historical fact that such a person did observe and describe it. As such, no one observes facts. One only becomes aware of historical propositions taken to be accurate.


Your suggestion was that facts are historical. But what you have argued is that knowledge of facts is historical.

Not the same thing.

Quoting tim wood
at some moment in the discussion it made a difference.


Where?
Deleted User July 12, 2018 at 04:42 #196101
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Banno July 12, 2018 at 05:07 #196105
Quoting tim wood
To be a fact requires particularity and specificity (sez I).


Yeah - we are choosing a grammar here.

I go with facts as such things as are true. Then we can have facts we don't know.
jkg20 July 12, 2018 at 06:38 #196122
Reply to tim wood
Obviously there are things that no one knows.

Do you mean to say that there are things which 1) are the case and which could be known, but which 2) no one currently knows? I presume not, since that would quickly lead to those unknown things being facts. So, how do you fill out the idea of a "thing that no one knows"? Are you a realist about such things?
BrianW July 12, 2018 at 13:12 #196173
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Real Truth is inaccessible to us because of physical and mental filters between us and the real world, namely biological, cultural, and psychological.


I'm not so sure about this. I think what you call filters are channels through which knowledge comes to us. They seem like filters because of their limitations but, through generations of human evolution, we keep expanding them and they maintain their service.

Quoting Kaiser Basileus
There are only two ways of knowing, empirical probability and logical necessity.


This I think is an over-simplification. Usually, intuition gets the first bite long before the scientific method is applied.

Quoting Kaiser Basileus
When making decisions, a certainty of 51% is as good as 100% because nothing may exceed it.


Quoting Kaiser Basileus
You may be between 25-60% sure of one thing and 44-78% sure of another, contradictory explanation


Doesn't knowing the percentage of certainty imply an idea of what the absolute truth is. Can you know that you have 26% without an idea of 100%? Because, then, the 26% would be arbitrary and not necessarily significant.

I do believe there is no absolute knowledge but there is comprehensive knowledge for a particular stage in life. Also, I think knowledge applies to all levels of life, including galaxies, stars, planets, animals, plants, even atoms and beyond, the differences being the modes of life and the degrees of application.
For me, one of the signs of knowledge is the awareness/response mechanism, another is differentiation and utility, all of which are expressed by all of life. I believe every life partakes of its share of knowledge.
BrianW July 12, 2018 at 13:20 #196174
Instead of a percentage of certainty, perhaps a level of confidence in our expectations...?
Kaiser Basileus July 12, 2018 at 18:14 #196207
Reply to BrianW I'd say percentage of certainty and level of confidence are identical. In any case, it's a fuzzy number so to think of it as numbers isn't really important anyway. Level of certainty is the point. Things in the sensable, replicable world that keep being replicable we call truth/fact. When there is no evidence to the contrary, the tiniest shred of evidence is actionable. If you believe there is additional information available then the salience of the decision determines how much you delay the decision in favor of gathering additional information.
BrianW July 12, 2018 at 20:48 #196226
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
When there is no evidence to the contrary, the tiniest shred of evidence is actionable. If you believe there is additional information available then the salience of the decision determines how much you delay the decision in favor of gathering additional information.


I think this refers more to choice than to knowledge. It suggests a kind of response or activity born of perception; something distinctly subjective.

When a person says, "The world is flat." Is this a statement with reference to knowledge or perception? The person may have no evidence to the contrary (perhaps due to lack of due diligence in acquiring said evidence), and may as well be confident in his claim. It is also actionable (many sailors and navigators did set out to discover the end of the world based on such ideas and propositions). So, my question is, Can knowledge be wrong? Or, does knowledge bear any relationship to truth?

I believe application of knowledge can be subjective but I don't think knowledge is.
S July 12, 2018 at 21:23 #196239
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Epistemology is all about certainty...


Is it? I thought that it was about knowledge.
Deleted User July 12, 2018 at 22:34 #196269
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Banno July 12, 2018 at 23:32 #196286
Quoting tim wood
Can we have facts we don't know?


This trades on the ambiguity of "Have".

Can we know facts we don't know? of course not.

Can there be facts we don't know? of course there can.



Deleted User July 13, 2018 at 03:52 #196332
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Banno July 13, 2018 at 04:04 #196334
Quoting tim wood
One problem: if there can be facts we don't know, that should cause us to ask if there are any criteria for being a fact. If nothing is such a criteria, then why cannot we have alternate facts, alternate nothings? And there is a very large supply of nothing - there can be as many facts as you like. Accuracy doesn't matter. Nothing about any contentless fact can be either true or false.

You are over-thinking it. There are things you don't know, that are nevertheless facts - the colour of the cup I had coffee from this morning, and so on. It's not hard to see that there are facts that no one knows.

The inability to account for such a commonplace suggests that that an approach in which all facts must be known is just plain wrong.
Deleted User July 13, 2018 at 17:44 #196569
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Sam26 July 21, 2018 at 16:20 #198871
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Epistemology is all about certainty, not “Truth”. Real Truth is inaccessible to us because of physical and mental filters between us and the real world, namely biological, cultural, and psychological.

There are only two ways of knowing, empirical probability and logical necessity.


Epistemology is about knowledge, and knowledge deals with beliefs, justification, and truth. If I say that I know algebra, that statement is either true or false.

There are at least two ways I can talk about certainty. One way is a subjective portrayal of my inner feelings about what I claim to know, and it can be expressed by emphasis. Another way that the word certainty is used, is as a synonym for knowing or knowledge. For example, I am certain that I saw Tom shoot Mary, or I am certain that Abraham Lincoln was the 16th president, etc.

There are many uses of the word know that go beyond your limited description of knowledge. I can know by sensory experience, I can know based on testimony, I can know based argument, inference, or proof, and I can know based on linguistic training, to name a few. The use of the word know is much more expansive than people seem to think.
Relativist July 21, 2018 at 16:39 #198878
Quoting tim wood
Not that all facts must be known, but that to be a fact, there must be content in the fact.

Three broad questions have surfaced here: 1) are true and fact synonyms? Do they mean the same thing? 2) What does fact mean? 3) Under that definition/understanding of "fact," is "fact" applicable where there is no knowledge? Or, in order to be a fact, does not the fact have to comprehend something as knowledge of that something - in simplest terms, to aver possession of a fact is to claim to have knowledge?

These are questions of semantics. Are you just trying to get a consensus on the meaning of the terms, or are you looking for the implications based on some particular definitions you have in mind?
Dfpolis July 21, 2018 at 19:50 #198951
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Real Truth is inaccessible to us because of physical and mental filters between us and the real world, namely biological, cultural, and psychological.


Of course this is meaningless in the absence of a definition of "real truth" as opposed to faux truth. Fr me, truth is the adequacy of what is inthe intellect to reality. Adequacy is a relative concept, depending on contextual need.

Further, you seem unaware that all knowledge is both subjective and objective. There is always some known object and some knowing subject. Further, the objective content we know has both an objective object, and a subjective object. If we see an apple the objective object is the apple and the subjective object (the data about the knowing subject) is that we can see, see these colors, etc. Thus, there is no biological, cultural, or psychological distortion -- there is only biological, cultural, and psychological data admixed with data on the objective object. If someone is too unreflective to recognize this, that can be corrected if the person is open-minded.

There is no a priori knowledge, no logical necessity independent of metaphysical necessity. What we call a priori is a posteriori with resect to our learning experiences, and the only "a priori" thereafter because it is constrained by our experiential understanding of being. Logic is not about laws of thought, but about laws of thought applicable to reality. I can think but I can't make a real square circle, nor can I instantiate an image of a square circle. These are ontological, not conceptual limitations. The ideas and are abstracted form experience, not granted from on high. So, logical necessity isn't an independent category, but something we grasp by experiencing reality.

Finally, as we have no way of measuring subjective certainty, assigning it a mathematical value is only a way of clothing subjective bias in mathematical garb.
A Christian Philosophy July 21, 2018 at 20:57 #198963
Reply to Kaiser Basileus Hello. I agree with most of what you wrote.

Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Real Truth is inaccessible to us

What about, as you mention later on, logical necessities? Truth does not contradict truth; therefore any self-contradicting statements are necessarily false; therefore any negation of self-contradicting statements are necessarily true. E.g. "Timeless objective truths don't exist" = self-contradiction; therefore "Timeless objective truths exist" = true.

Also, what about first principles, such as the laws of logic? Knowledge of logical necessities implies that we have a priori knowledge of the laws of logic as being true, for we cannot logically prove the laws of logic to be true. And in the off chance they are not part of eternal truths, then we are all screwed.
Kaiser Basileus July 21, 2018 at 22:41 #198998
Paradox simply doesn't exist in reality. It's a shortcoming of language. Every "thing" is a pattern with a purpose and the pattern is subservient to the purpose. Words that are self-referential or phrases that are self-refuting can't go anywhere - they have no purpose, therefore the pattern is meaningless. #paradoxsolved

There's no reason why logic works, it simply works. It's descriptive of the relationships between other concepts. Nothing is a priori. It's all based on our experience, individually, socially in the current moment, and historically as cultures evolve. You don't need to question logic. "Just works" takes you all the way to infinity, or until it stops working.
Kaiser Basileus July 21, 2018 at 22:43 #198999
Reply to Sam26 Everything you mention can be categorised either as empirical or logical. There really are only two ways of knowing.
Kaiser Basileus July 21, 2018 at 22:45 #199000
Reply to Relativist A fact is an individual instance of truth just as a choice is an individual instance of freedom. Knowledge is equivalent to epistemological warrant.
Kaiser Basileus July 21, 2018 at 22:46 #199002
I don't know if i got these responded to in order. The response threading here is confusing me.
Kaiser Basileus July 21, 2018 at 22:47 #199003
Reply to Banno If you don't know it, it's not a fact to you, or for any of your purposes. Likewise if we collectively don't know it, it's not a fact for all intents and purposes. In other words, identical to fiction.
Banno July 21, 2018 at 23:22 #199016
Reply to Kaiser Basileus All you have done is mandate that a fact is something you know rather than something that is true.

Go right ahead, if you like; but that's not how the rest of us use it.
Kaiser Basileus July 22, 2018 at 03:17 #199067
You can never know anything is "true" with 100% certainty. Certain *enough* for a given purpose is all that knowledge can possibly mean.
Banno July 22, 2018 at 04:14 #199072
Reply to Kaiser Basileus Are sure of that?
Kaiser Basileus July 22, 2018 at 05:00 #199079
Reply to Banno Yes. Logic works for 100% of applications that i'm aware of, but i'm no expert in logic.
Banno July 22, 2018 at 05:08 #199082
Reply to Kaiser Basileus so both:

Quoting Kaiser Basileus
You can never know anything is "true" with 100% certainty.


and

Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Logic works for 100% of applications


Hmm.

So logic does not tell us what is true?
Relativist July 22, 2018 at 06:18 #199091
Reply to Kaiser Basileus
"A fact is an individual instance of truth just as a choice is an individual instance of freedom. Knowledge is equivalent to epistemological warrant. "

Then I take it that a fact = a true proposition = a truth.

So when you ask "What does fact mean? " you're asking "what makes a proposition true?"
The most commonly accepted theory of truth is correspondence theory of truth. What makes a proposition true is that it corresponds to some actual aspect of reality. The proposition "the ball is read" is true if the ball is actually red.

(I questioned semantics, because epistemologists often use the term "fact" to refer to the element of reality to which a proposition corresponds, if true. )

You also asked," Under that definition/understanding of 'fact,' is 'fact' applicable where there is no knowledge"
Knowledge = a belief that is true, justified, and (somehow) avoids Gettier problems. Can there be a fact (i.e.a true proposition) if no one has knowledge of that proposition? Absolutely: I believe X, but I believe it for a bad reason, therefore I don't have knowledge of X. Nevertheless, X is actually true (i.e. it's a fact). There's an example of there being a fact without knowledge.

Perhaps you're using the term "knowledge" in the less technical, but more common sense, as equivalent to a belief, one that may or may not be justified. That makes for a more controversial analysis: is there a fact (true proposition) if no one actually believes that proposition? It depends on your stance on propositions. If (like me) you consider propositions as a set of words formulated by, and contained within, minds - then if no one has formulated a proposition then it doesn't exist. Consider the universe 100 years after the big bang. There were no true propositions (facts) at the time because there were no minds to formulate and contain them.

On the other hand, some treat propositions as abstractions, like numbers - they consider there to exist a proposition to describe every aspect of reality, irrespective of whether anyone has actually articulated it They would say, "yes, truths/facts exist even if no one believes the truth/fact/proposition".
Sam26 July 22, 2018 at 12:33 #199133
Quoting Banno
So logic does not tell us what is true?


No, logic doesn't tell us what's true. Logic is a tool to help us draw proper conclusions, but it certainly doesn't guarantee truth. If certain propositions are true (for e.g. a proof), then it follows that the conclusion is true, but that is contingent on whether the premises are true. So in that sense it doesn't tell us what's true. Logic is a tool of correct reason.
Banno July 22, 2018 at 13:48 #199161
Reply to Sam26 Lies to children, for Kaiser's sake.
Kaiser Basileus July 22, 2018 at 15:17 #199181
Reply to Banno Sure it does. But can you ever be 100% sure that you used it correctly? Can you be so sure of the premises that you plugged into that 100% certain logic? You can certainly get to epistemological warrant with logic, and that's the line that's always sufficient.
Kaiser Basileus July 22, 2018 at 15:25 #199184
Reply to Relativist Justified "true" belief is a step too far. If everyone in the entire species thought something was a fact and it turned it not to be, it would still have been true "for all intents and purposes" until the new information came to light. Hypothetical future changes are an unknown unknown and so can never be accounted for.

I'm a relativist, yes, but that doesn't mean arbitrary. The truth isn't relative to imaginary transcendent knowledge, but to our best attempts at verification.. "for all intents and purposes.

As for numbers; math is descriptive of the relationships between idealised entities that do not exist in reality.
Relativist July 22, 2018 at 15:45 #199191
Reply to Kaiser Basileus
Kaiser Basileus

18

?Relativist

 Justified "true" belief is a step too far. If everyone in the entire species thought something was a fact and it turned it not to be, it would still have been true "for all intents and purposes" until the new information came to light.
That is confused because it redefines "truth" by equating it with popular belief or conventional wisdom.

Kaiser Basileus July 22, 2018 at 16:49 #199228
Reply to Relativist Truth in any more absolute sense is inaccessible to us. It's statistical probability at best, which is a sort of knowledge, but not a fact. It's not "popular" or "conventional" at all. It's the extent of whoever is involved. The truth for humanity is something like the sun will rise tomorrow, but the truth for an individual might be "i'll be dead by then." which clearly usurps the sun rising in any sense relative to them. If the best knowledge available turns out to be wrong, should it not have been considered truth before that? If the best available information isn't enough, there is no truth at all. If it is, my definition stands.
Relativist July 22, 2018 at 17:11 #199240
Reply to Kaiser Basileus
I agree that, in most cases, truth is inaccessible. But we need an idealized concept of truth to grasp the very concept that objective truth is usually inaccessible.

" If the best knowledge available turns out to be wrong, should it not have been considered truth before that? "
No! We should be fully cognizant that the things we believe may be false. Only then can we explore why we might be wrong. The biggest obstacle to seeking truth is certainty: if you "know" x, then you won't entertain the possibility of not-x, which closes doors. Even if the truth we seek is unobtainable in principle, it is the direction we should try to head toward.
Banno July 23, 2018 at 00:00 #199299
Reply to Kaiser Basileus ok. So we can be 100% certain of the truth of logical rules.

What about maths? Can we be sure that twice two is four?
Banno July 23, 2018 at 00:08 #199302
Then the semi-logical things like the rules of chess or the value of a ten dollar note. Can we be certain of them?
Kaiser Basileus July 23, 2018 at 00:12 #199303
Math rests on the same foundation as logic - it keeps working. It has, as far as we can tell, always worked, and will, as far as we can tell, continue to work. As long as the sun keeps rising, there's no reason to question it. Our purposes are met by using these tools. That's how we know they're good tools, not because they're true in some esoteric transcendent sense (which we cannot know).
Kaiser Basileus July 23, 2018 at 01:14 #199307
Reply to Relativist Justified "true" belief is a step too far. If everyone in the entire species thought something was a fact and it turned it not to be, it would still have been true "for all intents and purposes" until the new information came to light. Hypothetical future changes are an unknown unknown and so can never be accounted for.

I'm a relativist, yes, but that doesn't mean arbitrary. The truth isn't relative to imaginary transcendent knowledge, but to our best attempts at verification.. "for all intents and purposes.

As for numbers; math is descriptive of the relationships between idealised entities that do not exist in reality.
Banno July 23, 2018 at 01:34 #199311
Reply to Kaiser Basileus just to be sure, is twice two is four true because it is useful, or because four is just what we mean by twice two?
Kaiser Basileus July 23, 2018 at 01:39 #199312
Both. We have the semantic version only because it keeps working that way. The ontological answer is that individual things do not exist until and for a particular purpose. But i'm feeling like i'm not tracking this conversation very well right now and this could go a million directions. tiny.cc/realityis tiny.cc/ontology and tiny.cc/epistemology hold the foundational elements of what i'm getting at. There is no Practical difference in why or how these things work. But a lot of things become clear when we understand that our intentions set the framework in which all else matters. Man is not the measure of all things precisely, man is the measurer of all things. Until then it's just stuff. Unless we're trading physical stuff, math doesn't have a purpose, and so forth.
Banno July 23, 2018 at 02:23 #199315
Reply to Kaiser Basileus thinking about it, things can be true just because they are useful. There are useful lies. So maths can’t be true just because it is useful. It must be true even without stuff.
Kaiser Basileus July 23, 2018 at 02:30 #199318
Maths doesn't even exist beyond useful. There's no way to strictly delineate one thing from another, so individuation is subject to the same rule. There's only numbers to the extent we use things distinctly. There's one apple to someone interested in one apple, but there's only the barrel to someone interested in making applesauce. Likewise there is no zero/nothing in reality, only the lack of specific things in context. Math, in other words, is about organising our experience and relies upon nothing else. There's no reason to believe it exists anywhere else or any way else.
Banno July 23, 2018 at 02:32 #199319
Reply to Kaiser Basileus So if it proved useful
To say one plus one equals one, that would be fine? One drop of rain meeting one more drop makes one drop?
Kaiser Basileus July 23, 2018 at 04:07 #199327
Both. We have the semantic version only because it keeps working that way. The ontological answer is that individual things do not exist until and for a particular purpose. But i'm feeling like i'm not tracking this conversation very well right now and this could go a million directions. tiny.cc/realityis tiny.cc/ontology and tiny.cc/epistemology hold the foundational elements of what i'm getting at. There is no Practical difference in why or how these things work. But a lot of things become clear when we understand that our intentions set the framework in which all else matters. Man is not the measure of all things precisely, man is the measurer of all things. Until then it's just stuff. Unless we're trading physical stuff, math doesn't have a purpose, and so forth.
Banno July 23, 2018 at 04:38 #199329
Reply to Kaiser Basileus So we can be certain of our intentions?
apokrisis July 23, 2018 at 04:48 #199330
Quoting Banno
So we can be certain of our intentions?


If we can doubt them, then we can certainly be relatively certain. Epistemology as usual boils down to pragmatics. Doubt and belief ground each other in logically dichotomous fashion.
Banno July 24, 2018 at 00:01 #199489
Problems with the OP: One.
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Epistemology is all about certainty, not “Truth”.


There is a sense in which we can be rid of truth. After all, "Twice two is four" and "'Twice two is four' is true" have the exact same truth conditions. The addition of "...is true" does not change the truth value.

But the addition of "...is certain" might change the truth value. That's because certainty is an attitude adopted by someone towards a statement, and so quite a different animal to truth. Certainty is a state of mind. Truth isn't.

Banno July 24, 2018 at 00:10 #199491
Problems with the OP: Two
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Real Truth is inaccessible to us because of physical and mental filters between us and the real world, namely biological, cultural, and psychological.

Firstly, why prefix the word "real" to "truth"? Are there unreal truths? Not a big point, but it leaves one somewhat suspicious...

Secondly, this seems to be an example of Stove's Gem:
We can know things only
  • as they are related to us
  • under our forms of perception and understanding
  • insofar as they fall under our conceptual schemes,
  • etc.

So,
  • we cannot know things as they are in themselves.



Plain, ordinary truths are transparently available to us. It is true that I am writing this on my laptop. It is true that I am writing in English. It is true that while I write this the cat is on the modem, keeping its feet warm. These are not extraordinary things in need of epistemic investigation.

In conclusion, playing epistemological games with words takes us away from the way we ordinarily use notions such as "...is true". That's why @Kaiser Basileus needs the modifier "Real truth"; it marks the place were we leave our ordinary understanding of truth behind, and start to play a different game with the same words.
Banno July 24, 2018 at 00:22 #199494
Problems with the OP: Three
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
There are only two ways of knowing, empirical probability and logical necessity.

A trite observation, perhaps: Is the sentence "There are only two ways of knowing, empirical probability and logical necessity" itself known empirically, or is it a logical necessity?

I can't see any way of assigning truth values to it to determine if it is a tautology, and hence known by logical necessity.

So is it empirical? Is it perhaps falsifiable? Well, I know I love Wife; such self-knowledge seems to be neither empirical nor tautologous... So, debatably, it stands falsified. I know how to ride a bike. Is that knowledge empirical nor tautologous?

In any case, it is by no means obvious that we ought accept that there are only two ways of knowing.

Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Some claim a third, revelation, but this cannot be tested or adequately expressed externally and cannot therefore be verified as reliable.


This is the criteria for rejecting revelation seems equally applicable to "There are only two ways of knowing, empirical probability and logical necessity". It cannot be tested or adequately expressed externally and cannot therefore be verified as reliable...

(Here I am supposing that "adequately expressed externally" is somehow like being logically true. If that's wrong, enlighten me).
Banno July 24, 2018 at 00:52 #199514
More on the first problem:
The first issue is, if epistemology is about certainty, and not abut truth, what are we to do with truth? Should we stop using it altogether? Can we replace every instance of "is true" with "is certain" without loss?
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Empirical probability is the realm of science. It is that things keep happening the same way. As we increase the resolution of our instruments, either outward/upward or downward/inward, we effectively increase the size of our reality as well as the level of certainty we can have about it. We increase truth, for all intents and purposes.
(My italics).

But here it is clear that it is difficult to remove truth entirely. That being true and being certain are not the same thing, is implicit in the setting out of the argument here.

The salient point is that, at the least, it is not a simple task to remove truth from epistemology.
Banno July 24, 2018 at 01:08 #199524
Problems with the OP: Four
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
The logical premise that makes this necessarily true is based on the identical foundation as science - it keeps working.


This seems to be saying that tautologies are only true because they are useful. That interpretation is upheld by Kaiser's answers to my questions, above. So:

Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Math rests on the same foundation as logic - it keeps working.


But tautologies are true because of their structure. Modus ponens is true regardless of how useful it is. further, and consider this with care, modus ponens can only be useful under a given interpretation; yet an interpretation in which modus ponens were not useful must by that very fact be wrong. An interpretation in which modus ponens appears to fail provides us with a reductio ad absurdum, and hence leads to the conclusion that one of the assumptions is wrong; that is, the interpretation has failed.

Logic is not true because it is useful; rather, it is useful because it shows what can be true.

Banno July 24, 2018 at 01:13 #199528
Problems with the OP: Five
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Statistics is a way of quantifying our level of certainty, whether in science replicability or emotional anecdote.
(My italics)
Is the suggestion here that one's preference for vanilla over chocolate is a result of some explicit Bayesian analysis?

I don't.

There's something more than just odd about the idea of employing a statistician in order to decide if you should propose to your significant other. But:
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
When you have an average level of certainty sufficient to outweigh other options, this is called epistemological warrant. It means that you are justified in making the decision or in accepting the fact as true.

Banno July 24, 2018 at 01:21 #199531
More on Problem two:
Here's that divide between the inside and the outside writ large:
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
To the extent we use patterns internally, internal versions of words suffice and they need only be internally consistent sufficient for internal purposes. To be used externally, they must be externally consistent (that is, accurately represent the material/sensable/testable world sufficient for whatever purpose they’re being used toward), and the extent to which we agree on them is the extent to which we can communicate effectively.


It will not do to just assume that there is a private world and a public world, and never the twain shall meet. The arguments here are long and windy, but in the end it seems incontrovertible that any private world is itself a public construction.

Further, it is this assumed segregation of mental life from the world that leads to Stove's Gem.

Reject the Cartesian notion of mind as the only source of certainty and you may have no need to explain how we bridge the imaginary gap between the mental and the physical.
Kaiser Basileus July 24, 2018 at 01:40 #199535
That's easy enough. (tiny.cc/epistemology) The external/physical/material world is that which we access through our senses.
creativesoul July 24, 2018 at 03:48 #199584
Quoting Banno
Secondly, this seems to be an example of Stove's Gem:
We can know things only
as they are related to us
under our forms of perception and understanding
insofar as they fall under our conceptual schemes,
etc.
So,
we cannot know things as they are in themselves.


I recently witnessed an introduction to philosophy professor who actually put forth this argument.

:gasp:

I was helping an intro student, so I ignored it(didn't call it out) and offered him something entirely different. Talk about trees always works.
Banno July 24, 2018 at 04:01 #199589
Reply to creativesoul

I've seen it used to great effect in intro philosophy; it quickly separates the goats and sheep. The goats get to do Honours. The sheep don't get past first year.

Many sheep wind up here, arguing for relativism or pragmatism.
creativesoul July 24, 2018 at 04:27 #199599
Well, the student maintained their average. They've never had less than an "A". I had to be very careful how I spoke though, for my understanding is not at an intro level so, I spoke of trees. Simple, effective, and damn near irrefutable if done right. My friend understood quite easily without ever doubting anything other than "why can't we know about trees?" I, of course, replaced some ambiguous notion with "trees" because it satisfied the notion and simplified the talk. Poor student was rather confused until then. The student just needed a social science credit, or something like that, so no more philo for them. Science major...

numberjohnny5 July 24, 2018 at 11:17 #199686
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
Epistemology is all about certainty, not “Truth”.


No. Epistemology is about the nature of knowledge and how we acquire it.
Banno July 24, 2018 at 23:03 #199808
Quoting Kaiser Basileus
That's easy enough. (tiny.cc/epistemology) The external/physical/material world is that which we access through our senses.


I'm not at all sure to what this refers - or even if it was directed at me.

But I winder if Proprioception is internal or external. How do I know where my foot is?

Yet Proprioception is a sense.

All up, I think we can conclude that epistemology is not as simple as you supposed.
Banno July 24, 2018 at 23:05 #199809
jorndoe July 25, 2018 at 03:36 #199881
Is this more traditional sketch reasonable?

User image

(the attached knowledge-traditional-1247x610.png is easier to read)

Belief » Formation (Wikipedia)

(Yes yes, the Gettier cases, but they're more a refinement, than a reason to bin it all.)

So, that's not so much about know-how, as it is about propositional knowledge.
Seems the work lies in justification.
creativesoul July 25, 2018 at 06:23 #199891
Reply to jorndoe

Gettier gets believing a disjunction wrong. That's all his second case amounts to, nothing more. His first case is an example of his changing the truth conditions of Smith's belief when he invokes "the man with ten coins in his pocket"... unacceptable change.

Anyway, the OP here seems a bit lost.
Banno July 26, 2018 at 01:26 #200050
Reply to jorndoe
Reply to creativesoul
Even Plato realised that the justified true belief account was inadequate ; just flatus, he says.

But @Sam26will give a good defence of it; worth listening to.

Better to treat knowing-that as a special case of knowing-how; that is, there is only one sort of knowledge, performative knowledge, knowing how to do something like ride a bike or play a guitar; or produce an argument or give a command or write an essay.

All knowledge reduces to knowing how to do something.

Hence, you demonstrate that you are knowledgeable by doing stuff.
Banno July 26, 2018 at 01:31 #200051
Further, we act within the confines of reality; there are things we cannot do, despite what we want or believe. And that's an absolute, regardless of probability and to the annoyance of any epistemic relativists.

If the battery is flat, no amount of Bayesian analysis or linguistic interpretation will charge it. You have to buy a new one or charge it.