About mind altering drugs

I have far too little experience with marijuana, and none with the other popular mind-altering drugs to say anything about it. I can say this, however: people have used psychotropic drugs for a very long time. Much of that was use was in ritual settings, meaning people used the drugs as part of a search for meaning. (Granted, they might have enjoyed the drugs as well). The Eleusinian Mystery cult, which held its rituals at Eleusis. was connected with Demeter and Persephone, used hallucinogens as part of the effort to achieve visions of an afterlife.

The principle risks these days are connected with a) impure drugs, b) reckless mixing of drugs and alcohol, and c) over use. If a little LSD is enlightening, acid trips every weekend are not necessarily going to be a good thing.

I take Rx mind altering drugs -- have for years. My chief complaint about them is that even when they are highly effective, they tend not to be enlightening or amusing. I also drink caffeine, have inhaled nicotine, and drink alcohol -- all of which have mind altering properties. Life without coffee would not be worth living. Ditto for alcohol, and maybe ditto for cigarettes, even though I haven't smoked for 20+ years.

Reply to Posty McPostface Generally speaking, I think all the (relatively safe) psychoactive drugs can be valuable in giving insight and getting the ol' noggin' joggin', but they all have considerable downsides too - some have high tolerance, some have other adverse side-effects, etc. And often, at some point you notice that the insights get a bit samey after a while (at a meta level, the different drugs have their own "groove," induce particular types of thoughts).

On the whole, I think it would be better if they were folded into society in a more ritualized context (as with ayahuasca, etc.), rather than "wild" usage, but I'm not sure that's feasible in the current social context.

We use drugs for all kinds of reasons, some therapeutic, some merely for the pleasure of the experience. The main problem I see with drugs (albeit not the only problem) is the laws we have against them, and the enforcement of those laws. They seem to me to cause so much more harm than the drugs do, to the individual or to society.

I have MS, and use cannabis to moderate the rather unpleasant experiences that MS can deliver. No other substance that I know of can offer the benefit I get from cannabis. And I like the feeling of being stoned; I find it enjoyable. And it helps with the pain. Win-win. :up:

Quoting Bitter Crank

Much of that was use was in ritual settings, meaning people used the drugs as part of a search for meaning.

It's interesting that one thinks that drugs will give them more meaning in life. It depends on the drug obviously, but I don't think this is a safe idea to profess or be lured into.

Quoting Pattern-chaser

We use drugs for all kinds of reasons, some therapeutic, some merely for the pleasure of the experience. The main problem I see with drugs (albeit not the only problem) is the laws we have against them, and the enforcement of those laws. They seem to me to cause so much more harm than the drugs do, to the individual or to society.

Yeah, I guess then we ought to be more pragmatic about the issue then? Why haven't we already adopted this attitude?

Quoting Pattern-chaser

I have MS, and use cannabis to moderate the rather unpleasant experiences that MS can deliver. No other substance that I know of can offer the benefit I get from cannabis. And I like the feeling of being stoned; I find it enjoyable. And it helps with the pain. Win-win.

Yeah, I used to use cannabis for treating my ADD. I can't really utilize it though due to its psychoactive effects. If you could remove the psycho-activity, then it would be the most promising ADD drug possible, due to not being able to develop tolerance to the positive effects. Other drugs like stimulants develop tolerance to some degree, or their effects are too rewarding in general.

Reply to Posty McPostface Where I mentioned drugs and meaning, I was speaking of drug use in a ritual context where there was more than mere drug-taking going on. The drugs were intended to enhance the ritual at a particular moment.

Otherwise, I totally agree that drugs, alone, do not give meaning any more than Coca Cola gives meaning.

Quoting Bitter Crank

Where I mentioned drugs and meaning, I was speaking of drug use in a ritual context where there was more than mere drug-taking going on. The drugs were intended to enhance the ritual at a particular moment.

So, the process of taking drugs themselves has a attained or undergone ritualization, which is a sort of unrealistic idealization of their use? Hence, the false lure that they have attained?

Not, the same kind of morning ritual of making coffee, taking a shower, and pumping yourself up with positive feedback or thoughts?

Quoting Posty McPostface

So, the process of taking drugs themselves has a attained or undergone ritualization, which is a sort of unrealistic idealization of their use? Hence, the false lure that they have attained?

He's talking about the entheogenic use of mind altering substances.

Not, the same kind of morning ritual of making coffee, taking a shower, and pumping yourself up with positive feedback or thoughts?

Not unless you take a near lethal dose of coffee every morning. Most of those entheogenic uses come down to ordeal rituals (like sweat huts, dancing until exhaustion, fasting for extended periods etc).

Quoting Ying

He's talking about the entheogenic use of mind altering substances.

What's that, enlighten me(?)

Reply to Posty McPostface I do not believe in drugs for non-recreational purposes.

Reply to Arne

What do you mean by that?

Reply to Posty McPostface :smile:

Reply to Arne
Ah, a smiley face. Here's one too: =]

When I came of age in the sixties, cannabis was hugely fashionable, so too LSD. But my perspective on them was, it wasn’t simply about cheap thrills and the desire for a rush, but about heightened awareness. Listening to music became a much more intense experience because you would notice details that you otherwise had never heard and it would spark amazing internal vistas. Ideas, humour, and many other things, took on an intense kind of reality that you felt you had never noticed before. [Of course, wisdom says that much of this is imaginary. There’s the legendary story told by Betrand Russell about the man who managed to write down something whilst high from nitrous oxide, and when he looked at it later, it said ‘the smell of petrolieum prevails throughout’.]

Of course there is also a hedonistic side to cannabis along with the fact that it’s too easy to become dependent on it; it’s true that cannabis dependency interferes with your ability to mature and get on with life. I’ve seen it happen to friends. But it’’s not only that. Recently, after many decades of abstinence, I encountered some ‘edibles’ - cookies. Again, there was a sense of a heightened appreciation of reality. It’s totally different from the effects of liquor.

Cannabis use is being legalised in many countries now, and I can’t see too much wrong with that, with the caveat that it really ought not to become highly commercialised and certainly not advertised. But it’s a very benign drug compared to crystal meth or cocaine and even alcohol. I can’t imagine a group of twenty-somethings brawling in the streets after smoking pot. They’re more likely to be giggling.

Quoting Posty McPostface

What's that, enlighten me(?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen

Reply to Ying

So, I'm going to point out the elephant in the room and ask to you or anyone else, why has these ethnogenic rituals been outlawed by so many governments and societies instead of others given how profound and important they are to some?

Quoting Posty McPostface

So, I'm going to point out the elephant in the room and ask to you or anyone else, why has these ethnogenic rituals been outlawed by so many governments and societies instead of others given how profound and important they are to some?

Wat.

https://thethirdwave.co/legality-ayahuasca/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_psilocybin_mushrooms
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_Salvia_divinorum

Quoting Ying

Wat.

Yeah, why is cannabis illegal or other Schedule I drugs in that category or status, at least here in the US?

Even better, you can get some entheogenic substances straight from your local garden center. The number of those go up if you're in for particularly harrowing experiences too, since they sell the really hard shit; deliriants mostly. Why? Because they look nice (sold as ornamentals). Not particularly nice highs though, from what info I've gathered. Not something I would like to try anyway.

I mean, highly addictive drugs like amphetamine, methylphenidate, and methamphetamine are available through prescription in the US; but, it's punishable by law to posses non-addictive (comparatively) Cannabis or MDMA or LSD. Why?

Humans have been self-medicating since time immemorial... Incorporating some sort of psycho-active substance or inebriant into diet or rituals is absolutely ubiquitous among traditional contemporary and ancient cultures.

Though I'm not convinced by it, stoned ape theory deserves a mention. It's entirely possible that psychoactive substances did play a direct role in the evolution of intelligence, but there's no proof for this.

I do however see plenty of evidence showing the general fragility of human minds, and everywhere I look I see humans consciously and unconsciously doping their brains on semi-regular and regular baseis. Nicotine, caffine, and THC (three of my favorites) don't even need to be mentioned to demonstrate the truth of this: sugar alone is psychoactive and we consume it not just because it tastes good, but because we like the short term effect it has on our minds (energizes).

Alcohol is almost never consumed for the taste alone, it is consumed only for the effect it has on our minds (some exceptions exist), many of us compulsively consume it on a regular basis, and almost every culture and people known to man consume some form of alcohol. Of the aboriginal groups who aren't a fan of fermentation, instead they have other substances: ayahuasca, poisonous frogs, peyote, tobacco, mushrooms, etc...

Since we're all so dependent on regulating our minds by constantly self-administering substances which affect how and what we think and do, I can only imagine that it is of net benefit rather than a net detriment. I'm forced to imagine that regular inebriation can somehow bring stability or fortitude to an individual mind: perhaps inebriation helps to destroy malformed or weak or detrimental beliefs and models/understandings which then makes minds subsequently more robust; perhaps it simply endows us the ability to manage arbitrarily large amounts of stress, allowing us to achieve more. By all accounts Winston Churchill (and all of our great grandparents) drank and smoked constantly, and by his own account they were of religious importance to him.

And maybe this touches on one of the proper functions of religion as a whole in addition to drugs: the emotions we feel near the sacred altar are absolutely psychoactive experiences, and something about this mental shakeup is probably a good thing given the hard hardships of life (toil, tragedy, rejection, failure, death). There's too much stress and confusion in the universe to endure and reconcile it all, which is why the euphoria of inebriation seems to be requisite.

Until now I think I've failed to realize just how similar the effects of drugs and religion actually are. They both seem to have come from the same place: arguably schizophrenic/schizotypal shamans with neat ideas about nature prepare the inebirant for the rest of their tribes, and transport us on guided trips through the ineffable self and the imagined worlds.

Religion isn't the opiate of the masses, it IS an opiate, and it makes sense why modern religions air against mind altering substances: it's uncontrollable competition against their refined product. Drugs provide the feel good aspect that we all covet, and they even yield some of the "enlightenment"/self improvement effect that religion has claimed as tangible raison d'etre.

Personally I do not like being severely inebriated whatsoever. If I cannot think with some clarity then all I have to gain is nausea instead of relaxation. I'm definitely not after enlightenment when I smoke tobacco or marijuana, but I am after some kind of psychoactive alteration that either makes thought easier, more interesting, or more enjoyable. I very much enjoy learning for its own sake, and chemically altering my perspective on a regular basis seems to be some kind of bulwark against exhaustion.

To condense this down to a brief evolutionary perspective, individuals who regulate their minds with psychoactive stimulation (achieving relaxation and perhaps greater "awareness") can endure greater hardship and thus be more reproductively successful, which is why nearly all humans today do so.

Quoting Posty McPostface

I mean, highly addictive drugs like amphetamine, methylphenidate, and methamphetamine are available through prescription in the US; but, it's punishable by law to posses non-addictive (comparatively) Cannabis or MDMA or LSD. Why?

Quoting Posty McPostface

Yeah, why is cannabis illegal or psilocybin mushrooms or other Schedule I drugs in that category or status, at least here in the US?

"You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."
-John Ehrlichman, former Nixon domestic policy chief.
https://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html

Quoting Wayfarer

But my perspective on them was, it wasn’t simply about cheap thrills and the desire for a rush, but about heightened awareness.

The beatniks became hippies, the hippies became yippies, and then the yippies became staunch neoliberals or yuppies. What does that say about 'heightened awareness'?

Quoting VagabondSpectre

Humans have been self-medicating since time immemorial...

True, though I don't know if it has actually changed is in any manner of form.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

Since we're all so dependent on regulating our minds by constantly self-administering substances which affect how and what we think and do, I can only imagine that it is of net benefit rather than a net detriment.

Yes, being pragmatic, psychoactive substances have their use; but, the point is that it has to be directed of governed (medical professionals, etc.) by someone who has figured out what benefit it actually has.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

I'm forced to imagine that regular inebriation can somehow bring stability or fortitude to an individual mind: perhaps inebriation helps to destroy malformed or weak or detrimental beliefs and models/understandings which then makes minds subsequently more robust; perhaps it simply endows us the ability to manage arbitrarily large amounts of stress, allowing us to achieve more.

Funny that you say that, because most people realize that achievement is an illusory concept imposed by society to maintain it. So, you're faced with a dilemma, in some sense.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

There's too much stress and confusion in the universe to endure and reconcile it all, which is why the euphoria of inebriation seems to be requisite.

So, drugs are for the weak minded? I'm pretty sure psychoactive drugs are only for the strong minded.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

I'm definitely not after enlightenment when I smoke tobacco or marijuana, but I am after some kind of psychoactive alteration that either makes thought easier, more interesting, or more enjoyable.

So, hedonism?

Quoting VagabondSpectre

To condense this down to a brief evolutionary perspective, individuals who regulate their minds with psychoactive stimulation (achieving relaxation and perhaps greater "awareness") can endure greater hardship and thus be more reproductively successful, which is why nearly all humans today do so.

I don't know if that's true. If it we're then why did the all hippies die out or recede into irrelevancy?

Quoting Posty McPostface

The beatniks became hippies, the hippies became yippies, and then the yippies became staunch neoliberals or yuppies. What does that say about 'heightened awareness'?

Nothing.

It's true that addiction and hedonism are destructive behaviours, but there's also a sense in which society taboos such substance because it calls the consensus reality into question.

Quoting Wayfarer

Nothing.

So, drugs we're just another 'fad' of the 60's, so to speak?

Quoting Wayfarer

It's true that addiction and hedonism are destructive behaviours, but there's also a sense in which society taboos such substance because it calls the consensus reality into question.

Well, yes, the aberration of reality or perversion of it though psychoactive drugs is not natural. Therefore, society knows better, I think.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Yes, being pragmatic, psychoactive substances have their use; but, the point is that it has to be directed of governed (medical professionals, etc.) by someone who has figured out what benefit it actually has

Medical professionals might not be intimately acquainted with our individual emotional ups and downs, and when to have a beer, a smoke, or a toke is probably better decided by ourselves so long as over-use isn't an issue.

Quoting Posty McPostface

because most people realize that achievement is an illusory concept imposed by society to maintain it. So, you're faced with a dilemma, in some sense.

Most people aren't so cynical about it I reckon. Wanting a fancy car or romantic gratification might be partially illusion-infused drives, but we still enjoy achieving them profusely. Enduring greater stress to achieve these ends with the crutch of substance seems to be in our nature, else we might have been content in a more primitive state.

Quoting Posty McPostface

So, drugs are for the weak minded? I'm pretty sure psychoactive drugs are only for the strong minded.

There's a great deal of neurodiversity within human groups, so different types and dosages of substances could be more or less beneficial/detrimental for a given individual and the environment they are in.

I think that regular periods of chemically assisted relaxation or pleasure can make an otherwise stressed mind more robust by giving it reprieve. Certainly some substances in some dosages can damage minds, and predicting the effects of harder drugs on individuals can be difficult (there is some risk). When it comes to things like THC, nicotine, caffine and alcohol it's not so dangerous. People who do physically demanding labour seem to like how alcohol relaxes their body; people who do mentally demanding labour seem to enjoy how nicotine relaxes their mind; people who do work which requires consistent or extreme focus seem to enjoy caffeine, and people who smoke THC seem to enjoy it for it's own sake (or some combination of the aforementioned effects).

I think that psychoactive substances when properly consumed can make individuals more robust, some more than others, weak and strong alike

Quoting Posty McPostface

So, hedonism?

Pleasure is inexorably why we do anything isn't it? In this case I enjoy the different ideas which occur to me because of THC. Marijuana is not a drug that puts you into some kind of orgasmic comatose state such as with injecting heroine (chemical hedonism if it exists).

Inexorably we all chase the dragon, but no I do not chase him directly.

Quoting Posty McPostface

I don't know if that's true. If it we're then why did the all hippies die out or recede into irrelevancy?

Hippies were less about drugs as they were about peace, free love, and like, cool ideas, man. But my point is more broad than experimentation with recreational drugs. It's about a broader underlying reliance on consuming substances and performing rituals which psychoactively impact and regulate our minds, and that we have naturally done so for thousands of years. The hippies didn't die our per se, their tie-dye faded and many of them went back to church and booze. Marijuana stuck around though, and it's edging/crowding out other substances and rituals much vigor.

Culture can change somewhat rapidly but human biology is more constant. Apparently our biology is such that we cannot stand to face the world straight and sober 100% of the time, and those who pretend to do so are usually those who derive the most emotion and happiness from non-substance psychoactive rituals (prayer, prostration, worship, exercise, competition, sex, poetry, prose, music, hippy drum circles, political rallies, etc...).

Where we get our fixes, how, and how much, are matters which fluctuate with the times, that we inexorably get our fix, however, does not.

@Posty McPostface
Have you ever held a hand blown German Christmas ornament?
If you are any thing like me and I have asked everyone from my Psychiatrist to those with decades of experience what affect am I missing out on in not taking mind altering drugs like MDMA or Mushrooms and every one has agreed with what my Dr. said.
He said that I have a loose enough grip (which is a plus in western pleasure horse back riding) on reality, that he just wouldn't do it if I could stay away from it.
As a recovering meth addict with this Sunday marking my 10nth year anniversary of my first Full Day of an Opiate free life, I can only speak from my own withdrawal experiences, which proves there is always a down for every up.
The first 45 days I functioned at 15% of my pre opiate addicted body. I had atrophy of my muscles and it was as I said 45 long grueling days, feeling a blunt razor shaved every nerve in my body raw until I got my first Dopamine dump. The first signs of life that my Dopamine receptors were needed to function again as they had been supplemented for 5 years was fucking amazing! I broke down crying knowing that I had walked through the worst of the storm and saw the tinyist light a bit further ahead and that kept me going.
My Dr is right, for me, to advise me against toying with my sense of reality, as it is too delicate to mess with. My OB Dr. warned me 19 yrs ago that my youngest son should be my last pregnancy. Interesting wording, I pressed on. He said the degree of Post Pardom Depression I have is treatable now. He openly said he didn't think my psyche would respoond if I were to.have another pregnancy.
Years later I told my OB/Gyn what happened with my.Opiate addiction he looked at me and said you are one lucky lady to have made it through the other side of the storm
And and normally I tell people that "luck" had nothing to do with it but seeing as he delivered my kids, while the Cubs broke my heart, I let it slide.
It was love and.support that if I jumped off this Dr. prescribed 'ride' there was a network of people who were around me to hold me up, including Dr's as well as family and friends.
I have had to find humor in other people's intoxication.

Reply to Posty McPostface

You are indulging in gross generalizations!

Quoting VagabondSpectre

Medical professionals might not be intimately acquainted with our individual emotional ups and downs, and when to have a beer, a smoke, or a toke is probably better decided by ourselves so long as over-use isn't an issue.

Then they are poor medical professional, at that. That's why I always would ask for a second or third opinion.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

Most people aren't so cynical about it I reckon.

Or not cynical enough?

Quoting VagabondSpectre

Wanting a fancy car or romantic gratification might be partially illusion-infused drives, but we still enjoy achieving them profusely.

Yeah, it's the placebo effect manifest in reality. Quite a phenomenon if you ask me.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

Enduring greater stress to achieve these ends with the crutch of substance seems to be in our nature, else we might have been content in a more primitive state.

Then, you open up the can of worms, that we are really weak if we need that crutch. I have always felt impotent whenever I have indulged in stimulants to treat my ADD.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

I think that regular periods of chemically assisted relaxation or pleasure can make an otherwise stressed mind more robust by giving it reprieve. Certainly some substances in some dosages can damage minds, and predicting the effects of harder drugs on individuals can be difficult (there is some risk). When it comes to things like THC, nicotine, caffine and alcohol it's not so dangerous. People who do physically demanding labour seem to like how alcohol relaxes their body; people who do mentally demanding labour seem to enjoy how nicotine relaxes their mind; people who do work which requires consistent or extreme focus seem to enjoy caffeine, and people who smoke THC seem to enjoy it for it's own sake (or some combination of the aforementioned effects).

I guess we can reduce the issue to a matter of taste. But, nobody gives you informed consent that what you may be doing is actually bad for your health or mental stability. It all smacks of some wishful thinking, and some such matters.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

I think that psychoactive substances when properly consumed can make individuals more robust, some more than others, weak and strong alike

Yeah, this is interesting. College students are always looking to get an edge on their peers at college through the consumption of various stimulants. Just one manifestation of the above sentiment.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

Hippies were less about drugs as they were about peace, free love, and like, cool ideas, man.

I wish I knew a Hippie that didn't have to indulge in drugs to propound such noble goals. Did they sabotage themselves/their message in some sense?

Quoting VagabondSpectre

It's about a broader underlying reliance on consuming substances and performing rituals which psychoactively impact and regulate our minds, and that we have naturally done so for thousands of years.

Not everyone, some yes.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

Apparently our biology is such that we cannot stand to face the world straight and sober 100% of the time, and those who pretend to do so are usually those who derive the most emotion and happiness from non-substance psychoactive rituals (prayer, prostration, worship, exercise, competition, sex, poetry, prose, music, hippy drum circles, political rallies, etc...).

Sleep is enough of a trip for me, every night. I heard DMT levels rise during REM sleep or something like that.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

Where we get our fixes, how, and how much, are matters which fluctuate with the times, that we inexorably get our fix, however, does not.

Depressing, really.

Reply to ArguingWAristotleTiff

I'm really glad you made it through those terrible ordeals, Tiff. Sounds horrible. But, progress has been made, yay!

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff

He said that I have a loose enough grip (which is a plus in western pleasure horse back riding) on reality, that he just wouldn't do it if I could stay away from it.

I'm in the same boat. No point in breaking yourself down, and them reassembling yourself if there's no need to, yea?

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff

As a recovering meth addict with this Sunday marking my 10nth year anniversary of my first Full Day of an Opiate free life, I can only speak from my own withdrawal experiences, which proves there is always a down for every up.

I can relate. Though, my tendencies were always guided with the noble ideal of performing better at college due to treating ADD-PI, until things spiraled out of control.

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff

The first signs of life that my Dopamine receptors were needed to function again as they had been supplemented for 5 years was fucking amazing! I broke down crying knowing that I had walked through the worst of the storm and saw the tinyist light a bit further ahead and that kept me going.

:up:

Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff

He openly said he didn't think my psyche would respoond if I were to.have another pregnancy.

Yeah, women are special. It's a miracle of life; but, can be too much for some minds.

Quoting Janus

You are indulging in gross generalizations!

I think it goes both ways though. One sees these mind altering drugs as some cure or panacea for some issue, and the fantasy and wishful thinking begins. It's like the square root of the placebo effect.

@Posty McPostface
Your core on this seems a lot more stable than mine. :heart:

Reply to Posty McPostface

I don't think that psychedelics are seen as "cure or panacea" so much as, just in some special contexts, therapeutic aids.

Some people might fantasize about psychedelics, to be sure, but not that many i would say. There will always be a limited number of people who fantasize about almost anything you can imagine, so psychedelics are not a special case. A lot of young meatheads fantasize about getting pissed and "cracking on" to "chicks", or getting the chicks pissed and rooting them, for example, but that is no reason to condemn alcohol tout court.

Quoting Posty McPostface

So, the process of taking drugs themselves has a attained or undergone ritualization, which is a sort of unrealistic idealization of their use? Hence, the false lure that they have attained?

I would say that the use of drugs in our time has been de-ritualized, compared to what the Greeks were doing at Eleusis.

The "Mysteries" at Eleusis was celebrated over a few days. We don't know what all they did in their rituals, but one of the things they did was enter a dark underground chamber and stay there for a while. This may have been the place of drug taking. Why? Because Persephone had been kidnapped by the god of the underworld, Hades, and taken to his dark kingdom (Persephone was very attractive, after all). Her mother, Demeter was grief stricken and caused a great drought, which would have eventually devastated the land AND ended the practice of sacrificing food to the gods. Demeter also went into the underworld looking for her daughter. The time periods they were there correspond to the Mediterranean agricultural seasons of 8/4 months.

This was important stuff having to do with agriculture, worship of the gods (who were dependent on humans for sacrificial food) and the underworld. Plus, people returned to Eleusis for second visits (thereby becoming a bit privileged).

In Christianity, people didn't start sharing bread and wine at church as an intermission snack. They ate the food as a commemoration of the incarnation of Jesus Christ and his sacrificial death -- so central to the whole Christian structure of meaning. The situation at eleusis was similar.

So, the lady in the lower right is either holding a tray of snacks or a tray of the drugs to be consumed. Some of the well-heeled worshippers are carrying torches.

Not, the same kind of morning ritual of making coffee, taking a shower, and pumping yourself up with positive feedback or thoughts?

Pumping one's self up in the morning with positive sounding non-inferential statements is disgusting.

For some of us making and drinking coffee in the morning is more sacred and sustaining than the Eucharist, and the morning shower is a daily remission of filth and dirt.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Psilocybin is quite an interesting drug too due to its potential utility for treating depression, OCD, and phobias.

I have considered trying mushrooms for this reason and also obviously curiosity. Though I'm a little iffy about the loss of "control" in a psychoactive experience. I think I might be more sensitive to "drugs" than normal, so even weed can give me a bad time if I have too much or am in the wrong situation. No big deal though. I smoke weed occasionally and I do it because it's a ([s]probably[/s], hopefully?) harmless recreation that makes me laugh and relax.

My epistemological views have shifted to being more skeptical - it is not false to say that everyone is technically "on drugs" when "drugs" are any chemical that influences cognitive function. I'm not really entertaining the notion of absolute relativity. Just a little more flexibility in what counts as veridical perception, or what is justification for belief. When experience is conditioned by things like neurotransmitters, you have to wonder why one experience-chemical correlate is favored over another experience-chemical correlate. In general, though, I see drugs as potentially helpful in a cognitive sense but probably misleading in a spiritual sense.

My opinion on drugs is that while they all have the potential to be abused, they can also be very positive. I think this is a moderate view that is held by most people on the political left. It seems ridiculous to me that marijuana possession is a felony while alcohol isn't. The drug policy of the United States is anti-intellectual and based on fear and racism and is counter-productive to the understanding of drugs. If we had more research on the effects drugs have on people, I think people would be able to make smarter decisions on what they put in their bodies. But dumb programs like DARE just make drugs into a taboo which only makes people, especially adolescents, more tempted to try them.

Quoting Janus

I don't think that psychedelics are seen as "cure or panacea" so much as, just in some special contexts, therapeutic aids.

Right, but what do you mean by 'some special contexts'? I feel as though many people wonder about that too.

Quoting Janus

Some people might fantasize about psychedelics, to be sure, but not that many i would say.

Well, yea, because the experience is inherently irrational and pertains to the illogical.

Quoting Janus

A lot of young meatheads fantasize about getting pissed and "cracking on" to "chicks", or getting the chicks pissed and rooting them,for example, but that is no reason to condemn alcohol tout court.

I haven't condemned psychedelics per se, so don't get the wrong idea. I'm just against people advocating their use in what you call 'special contexts'.

It seems simple.

If we need to numb ourselves, that spells some kind of problem. We would want to tackle the cause and not the symptoms.

If we want to enhance our cognitive state, that sounds useful. We would want to understand the causality of that so we can produce the said symptoms. Although there may still be a question about why we think it is such a good thing ... like all the time, in some extreme superhuman way.

So if drugs are being used as a numbing mechanism, that ain't a good thing if it is to avoid an underlying problem being addressed. But then, hey, maybe this idea of being wired - cognitively energised all the time - is bad too as relaxing, chilling out, goofing off, are part of being human too?

However are drugs actually good at producing relaxation. Isn't mediation or exercise way better?

And maybe there is a third thing - social lubrication. People feel very self-conscious and distant from each other. Drugs are a way to blur those interpersonal boundaries. But isn't it better to address the causes of this more than the symptoms? What is it about society and other people - or your own habits - that could be changed to remove the same awkwardness that booze or weed allegedly removes?

So actually, it's all a bit complicated.

But the posts that focus on the social framing of the perils and benefits are more relevant than the ones that talk about personal neurobiology.

Pharmaceutical science sure likes us believing that neurotransmitters are like the volume and contrast knobs on the side of the TV set. Others like the Romantic notion that there is some secret little door in our heads that opens into another more splendid world.

But drugs are really crude and rely on their social framing to produce most of any effect.

Inject some adrenaline and the jolt to your sympathetic nervous system will be read as excited or irritating depending on the context. You are suddenly aroused. Now you have to work out whether that is to get you busy in a good or bad way because of what is happening in the world around you.

Personally I have found that it is the boringly obvious stuff - hard exercise, quality sleep, clean diet - that does the most you can do for your biology. Then you have to deal with the social side of life the best way you can. You have to strike some balance of engagement and detachment that results in a long-term strategic sense of growth and flourishing.

And the toughest part of that is it is never something structurally stable. Shit happens. Circumstances change. Rebuilding is part of the game.

But anyway, everything people seek from "recreational" drugs is ultimately about that social thing, and so ought to be judged against other social mechanisms (like hiking, clubs, whatever). What impresses is that drugs seem more potent than the other choices as they promise to go right to the neurobiological source.

That is true in the bullshit sense they stick a crude spanner in the works. But then that still leaves you having to make sense of what you just did. And that in turn takes things back to the social context which is the ultimate arbiter on the issue.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Right, but what do you mean by 'some special contexts'? I feel as though many people wonder about that too.

Well, it's been claimed that they may be helpful in some psychotherapeutic and sacramental contexts, for example. are you contending that all such claims are spurious? if so, on what basis would you claim that?

Reply to Janus

No, I'm trying to delineate when and which context are best to utilize said drugs from other contexts. So, for example, I'm feeling depressed and think eating some Psilocybin Cubensis might alleviate the depression, so I take the mushroom, but have a harrowing experience of losing control over my thoughts and thinking the police are outside of my home and are waiting to put me in straights, then what has gone wrong here? And, yes this was an actual experience of mine.

Nowadays I just laugh about it. But it took some years for me to recover from it and the concern that I permafried myself.

Quoting apokrisis

And maybe there is a third thing - social lubrication. People feel very self-conscious and distant from each other. Drugs are a way to blur those interpersonal boundaries. But isn't it better to address the causes of this more than the symptoms? What is it about society and other people - or your own habits - that could be changed to remove the same awkwardness that booze or weed allegedly removes?

Excellent observation and nicely articulated.

Reply to apokrisis

I have had some extremely positive and vivid memories of experiences on psilocybin, LSD and MDMA. These memories make perfect sense to me. They are not troubling at all, so I don't see what harm such occasional experiences could do. They certainly enrich the stock of aesthetic memory and affect, if nothing else. They may and certainly do inspire creative work. The painting which is my current avatar was inspired by an overwhelming, extraordinary experience I had looking at the very tree which is the central subject.

Reply to Posty McPostface

Sure, and I have had absolutely terrifying experiences, in my case more to do with feeling i was about to die than worrying about the cops. The only possible answer is to be able to let go and accept your fear, adopting a disposition of acceptance which I have found usually dissolves the anxiety, and often transforms it into ecstatic visions. I think this applies to life in general, no amount of agonizing or thinking over your fears will solve the problem.

I can't remember ever having suffered afterwards from experience which were, at the time, unspeakably terrifying, and with the time dilation, seemed to go on forever. In fact usually after coming down from hallucinogens and having a good sleep I have felt purified and more rested than at most other times.

But then I am not you, so I am by no means recommending hallucinogens for you, or for anybody else. The point is, I don't generalize; such experiences may be greatly beneficial for some people and detrimental to others. They may even be nothing more than light fun for some, and of no great consequence at all.

Quoting apokrisis

And maybe there is a third thing - social lubrication. People feel very self-conscious and distant from each other. Drugs are a way to blur those interpersonal boundaries. But isn't it better to address the causes of this more than the symptoms? What is it about society and other people - or your own habits - that could be changed to remove the same awkwardness that booze or weed allegedly removes?

This is a good approach, and some people find that hallucinogens and entheogens will help them to implement the changes that need to be made. There is simply no 'one rule for all', that is the point.

Reply to Janus

That's not the point. People who seek to resolve issues through psychadela need therapy and analysis instead of overwhelming and possibly frightening experiences. So, it kind of renders the whole point of taking them as moot, as if you don't have any issues then why take them at all?

Hence I think guided therapy with using them as a tool/means instead of some grand end is the proper attitude to adopt in regards to their.potential use.

Reply to Posty McPostface

The fact that some people might misguidedly seek such experiences is irrelevant to what I have been arguing. People have to take responsibility for their own decisions as to what therapies or potential aids to make use of.

You continue to overgeneralize.

Reply to Janus

That's an awfully careless thing to say though. Nobody tells you that the experience can even be life threatening or even detrimental to your health if you have an underlying psychological issue that is hard to address outside of controlled settings. Why is that?

Reply to Posty McPostface

Why is it careless? Are you saying that nobody tells anybody? if you are then I would say that you are generalizing again and it is not true. And the drugs we are discussing are not addictive and are very rarely life-threatening anyway. Aren't you being a tad alarmist here?

Quoting Posty McPostface

Well, yes, the aberration of reality or perversion of it though psychoactive drugs is not natural.

That assumes that the natural state, or rather the ordinary state that humans predominantly exemplify, is normal. Certainly, experiences with psychoactive agents can call that sense of normality into question. But then so too can some forms of asceticism or martial and spiritual disciplines - in fact, that is their aim. And that aim is predicated on the state that the 'consensus reality' that many live in, is itself an illusory or sub-optimal state, which becomes self-reinforcing.

I would agree that nothing good can ever come from crystal meth or crack cocaine- from what I can ascertain, they have nothing to do with realising visionary states and their use is wholly and solely pernicious and destructive. But not all psychoactive agents are the same - the point of a 'heightened state of awareness' is the realisation that what you have hitherto taken to be real, may not be so concrete after all. That realisation, to me, was worth all the risk, and I think it has permanently, and positively, altered my view of life.

But you seem to firmly want to answer your question

Quoting Posty McPostface

Is the prejudiced belief that people are hedonists or want to 'escape' from reality for a brief while, actually the case?

in the positive, so I sense there's no use in further discussing it, and besides, I don't want to act as an advocate.

Quoting Wayfarer

That assumes that the natural state, or rather the ordinary state that humans predominantly exemplify, is normal.

I don't see how you can argue with that.

Quoting Wayfarer

Certainly, experiences with psychoactive agents can call that sense of normality into question.

Which has been pontificated and idealized on as far as I'm aware.

Quoting Wayfarer

But then so too can some forms of asceticism or martial and spiritual disciplines - in fact, that is their aim.

Yes, but that doesn't entail the rejection of 'base undistoreted reality'.

Quoting Wayfarer

And that aim is predicated on the state that the 'consensus reality' that many live in, is itself an illusory or sub-optimal state, which becomes self-reinforcing.

Well, we can poison the well, and say that everything is illusory; but, I don't think that gets us anywhere really.

Quoting Wayfarer

I would agree that nothing good can ever come from crystal meth or crack cocaine- from what I can ascertain, they have nothing to do with realising visionary states and their use is wholly and solely pernicious and destructive. But not all psychoactive agents are the same - the point of a 'heightened state of awareness' is the realisation that what you have hitherto taken to be real, may not be so concrete after all.

Quoting Wayfarer

That realisation, to me, was worth all the risk, and I think it has permanently, and positively, altered my view of life.

So, then the issue is me-centered again. I've always believed that one can surmount the trappings of one's self and come to a better realization of reality through other means than psychoactive drugs.

Quoting Wayfarer

in the positive, so I sense there's no use in further discussing it, and besides, I don't want to act as an advocate.

I guess you can trivialize it down to a matter of prejudices or some such matter; but, I've resented the fact that the counter-culture movement was centered around individualism. Doesn't that detract from the message 'mind-altering-drugs' meant to portray?

Quoting Janus

Aren't you being a tad alarmist here?

Perhaps.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Certainly, experiences with psychoactive agents can call that sense of normality into question. — Wayfarer


Which has been pontificated and idealized on as far as I'm aware.

The way we see the world is conditioned by our attitudes, many of which are unreflectively taken for granted. Philosophy, (as well as other activities) can help to loosen the grip unreflective attitudes have on us. experiences with psychoactive drugs may give us a different perspective, and also help in this 'loosening'. I say "may" because obviously they are not for everyone. I believe they can short-circuit some of the culturally accumulated cognitive patterns, and plunge us into the 'raw' affective, precognitive process of experience. That is why the experience can seem so extremely strange, and yet eerily familiar.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Yes, but that doesn't entail the rejection of 'base undistoreted reality'.

So, in light of what I said above, when you say this I would question what you think this "base undistorted reality" is. Can it be the culturally accumulated cognitive patterns we have been conditioned by, if these patterns are culturally relative?

Quoting Posty McPostface

I've resented the fact that the counter-culture movement was centered around individualism. Doesn't that detract from the message 'mind-altering-drugs' meant to portray?

No...individualism does not equate with egotism.

None of what I say here should be taken as a recommendation for you or anyone else to try psychoactives. each individual has to decide for themselves whether such experiences are for them. That is what is meant by "individualism"; the free determination (as much as is possible, obviously) by the individual of their own experiences.

Quoting Janus

None of what I say here should be taken as a recommendation for you or anyone else to try psychoactives. each individual has to decide for themselves whether such experiences are for them. That is what is meant by "individualism"; the free determination (as much as is possible, obviously) by the individual of their own experiences.

Isn't that the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy in a nutshell?

Quoting Posty McPostface

Isn't that the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy in a nutshell?

Why would you say that? I even haven't talked about anything following anything else, much less about anything being caused by anything else.

It seems to me that you are not genuinely interested in discussing this subject. It is puzzling that you would start a thread on it, and then seem to do everything you can to avoid engaging with any of the responses you receive.

Reply to Janus

Well, I'm saying that because you assume that the psychedelic experience will provide, in some cases, the needed shift in perception to fulfill whatever is thought to be the change needed in perception to challenge or change ones view of oneself or place in reality, thus the fallacy.

Reply to Posty McPostface

That's nonsense, Posty; I haven't assumed any such thing, and even if I had it would not be an example of said fallacy.

I have said, or alluded to the fact, that some psychologists and therapists have claimed that psychedelics have helped their patients to overcome addictions and cognitive 'blocks'. I have said that in regard to my own experience they have been helpful in some respects, and that I cannot find any way in which they seem to have harmed me.

Even if I thought that psychedelics provide in some cases, "the needed shift in perception to fulfil whatever is thought to be the change needed in perception" it would not be an example of a post hoc fallacy any more than if I thought that certain nutrients provide in some cases the needed boost to plant growth to fulfil whatever is thought to be the change needed in plant growth. If a certain kind of change in perception is believed to be needed in certain cases, and it is believed that psychedelics will provide that kind of change, then that is merely a hypothesis to be tested, not a logical fallacy.

Reply to Janus

I digress. Thanks for entertaining these musings of sorts.

Reply to Posty McPostface

Sure, thanks for starting a thread on what I think is a very interesting and important topic.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Then they are poor medical professional, at that. That's why I always would ask for a second or third opinion.

We're talking about booze, nicotine, and THC, not crack-cocaine or Fentanyl. Different substances do different things, and many of them do not require professional advice before each use.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Yeah, it's the placebo effect manifest in reality. Quite a phenomenon if you ask me.

I'm not sure where this is coming from, but buying the car you fancy and getting the girl you've crushed on aren't placebos; the car actually drives, the woman actually womans. It can be quite an actual affair.

But if cars and chicks are placebos, illusions, then so is everything, right?

Quoting Posty McPostface

Then, you open up the can of worms, that we are really weak if we need that crutch. I have always felt impotent whenever I have indulged in stimulants to treat my ADD.

I'm not saying anyone who takes drugs is weak or impotent, I'm saying that some substances for some people can strengthen them, allowing them to accomplish more (i.e, endure the stress of having more children). To say that psychoactive medication can make us more robust is not to say that anyone who indulges is therefore weak.

Quoting Posty McPostface

I guess we can reduce the issue to a matter of taste. But, nobody gives you informed consent that what you may be doing is actually bad for your health or mental stability. It all smacks of some wishful thinking, and some such matters.

My experience with the effects of such substances (and available data) along with my awareness of my own mental health allow me to choose when to indulge in things like booze or marijuana (when it might actually be relaxing/have a positive effect). I could ask whether or not you have a professional opinion stating that there is no detriment to NOT indulging from time to time.

Quoting Posty McPostface

I wish I knew a Hippie that didn't have to indulge in drugs to propound such noble goals. Did they sabotage themselves/their message in some sense?

Hippies weren't nearly as drug heavy as today's youth. Perhaps someone of finer vintage can back me up here, but their main shtick was smoking the lowest quality weed known to man, talking about spiritualism/poetry, and having sex; enjoying themselves. It was a political and cultural movement AFAIK, not one based around substance use or abuse. There were definitely drugs at the hippie scenes, but there always have been mind altering substances present at gatherings of young adults, and they didn't exactly require drugs to found their existential platforms.

"Beat" (as in beatnik) culture was born of post war anti-conformity, which put them at odds with America's return to normalcy following WW2. They were anti-materialist black-beret sporting poetry-spouting anti-conformist free-loving jazz types, and many of them did experiment with drugs in search of new perspectives. The 60's gave way to hippiedom, which inherited beat ideas, vernacular and its shitty weed. Beats became hippies, and when LSD finally struck mid 60's it was popular among all the counter-cultures. Meanwhile mainstream culture was as saturated in tobacco, alcohol, et al., as ever. Different tokes...

Why did the hippies decline? I'm not entirely sure, but aside from the natural progression and continual evolution that all cultures undergo, the end of the Vietnam war was perhaps their final victory. Without the war to protest (and with hippie culture seeming less and less hip), it just naturally went away. Hippies and hippie culture grew up and out of themselves, though they've surely left some lasting marks.

Reducing them to a bunch of drug addicts is far too simple. The original Beat generation was reactionary: rejected the post-war mainstream as futile, materialistic, repressed, and narrow minded. By the end of the 70's American culture was far less repressed and much had changed, diverged, and diversified. The 80's came with harder and more dangerous drugs (in greater quantities) than ever before (new gangs too), which probably sucked up and destroyed a lot of nostalgia chasing late-era hippies.The rest went straight.

Drugs may have been a final nail in the hippie coffin, but were not alone the cause of death.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Not everyone, some yes.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Sleep is enough of a trip for me, every night. I heard DMT levels rise during REM sleep or something like that.

When you eat a chocolate bar you alter your mind; when you do squats you alter your mind; when you watch T.V you alter your mind; when you read and write forum posts you alter your mind.

Changes to your body affect your mind, and changes to your mind affect your body. Diet, physical activity, and mental activity/stimulus of all kinds have ramifications on your health and behavior which extend well beyond our ability to fathom. Hormones, phermones; neurotransmitters: eating sugar filled junk food can cause your body to produce more things like tryptophan, insulin, and serotonin. Eat enough of it on a regular basis and you can become addicted in the sense that you will have constant cravings and experience withdraw symptoms. Like so many things, it alters our reactionary minds. Too much sleep, or too little, and you'll be harming yourself substance free. Moderation is a useful skill.

Quoting Posty McPostface

Depressing, really.

Our dreams are only depressing if you want them to be. And while we cannot directly control what we want, we can through some perhaps wholesome practices such as exercise, good diet, and meditation/self reflection, improve our desires and our general outlook; we can alter our minds. The relaxation and perspective altering effects of some substances can be useful on the whole. After millennia of such consumption we're practically optimized for it.

We all get our fix though. It's why we come here; it's why we eat; it's why we work; it's why we strive, reproduce, build, enshrine, etc...

We're all seeking happiness, a life worth living, so what's the use in begrudging one path and not others so arbitrarily? If the quality of the road is high, and the destination desirable, why not?

Here's Jack Kerouac, the quintessential beatnik, reading the last page of his novel "On the Road" which supposedly encapsulates the beat movement:



He more than embraces the bleakness of reality in his writings, and somehow he manages to savour it. Beat culture was a reaction to a depressing reality, marked by a concerted effort to have a good time.

It's really not all that bad.

Quoting Posty McPostface

what's the lure of mind altering drugs to a person?

I'm a bit late here, but I thought I'd chime in anyway.

Recently, I've been listening through quite a lot of stoner doom metal and on pretty much every album that's on YouTube I find loads of comments about how great the music is when you're blasted, high, whatever. The irony is that most of these albums are hopelessly ponderous and drab, making me wonder if the music somehow becomes great just because you're on drugs. Except, I don't think they do. The music is bad whether you're high whilst listening to it or not. The listener changes, in other words, not the music. If the music is good, it's good, and if it's bad, no degree of drug taking will make it good. I mean, I love Dopesmoker, it's a great album. But I don't do drugs or drink or whatever else. Am I missing out? Are the punishingly heavy riffs any less emotive because I listen cleanly? Not to me. If you need weed or meth to enjoy music, then you're a loser. The same goes for someone who can't get through the day without shooting heroin.

I guess the crux of what I'm trying to say is that when somebody does drugs, they do so in order to feel a certain way. And for the people who think that the world begins and ends with how they feel, reality for them becomes a shifting sands. This is one reason why drug rehab is so painfully difficult, because addicts can't see a world outside of the needles, joints, and highs. I guess I'm a prude, but in the end I'd rather enjoy a glass of sweet tea than shoot myself up with some drugs if we're talking simple pleasures.

If anyone is interested in first hand accounts and criticism of old school beatniks and hipsters , I just came across this absolute gem:



Basically it's the mind altered father of the beat movement (drunk Kerouac) bopping for an old school cheeky gentlemen (the interviewer), a critical sociologist (Yablonsky), and a next-gen hippy musician (Sanders). It touches on the essence and causes of beat and hippy movements and indirectly addresses the nature of drugs in the movements. It was filmed half a century ago, the year following "the summer of love" (a bunch of hippies reached critical mass in some random Californian town or something). The different perspectives and language of these four individuals paints a really vivid and intimate picture of this bygone culture and the environment it grew out of and into.

Did the hippy beatniks find enlightenment or cosmic consciousness?

No...

They really should have listened to Kerouac, in the end all they did was just have a good time.

Quoting VagabondSpectre

Perhaps someone of finer vintage can back me up here, but their main shtick was smoking the lowest quality weed known to man, talking about spiritualism/poetry, and having sex; enjoying themselves. It was a political and cultural movement AFAIK, not one based around substance use or abuse.

Yes, I can back you up. :grin: That's more or less how it was. :grin: