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Problem of the Criterion

Shawn June 02, 2018 at 00:23 12900 views 31 comments
In the field of epistemology, the problem of the criterion is an issue regarding the starting point of knowledge. This is a separate and more fundamental issue than the regress argument found in discussions on justification of knowledge.

(A) What do we know? What is the extent of our knowledge?

(B) How are we to decide whether we know? What are the criteria of knowledge?

Below is a short video illustrating the case:


Here is the original paper proposed by Roderick Chisholm.

And finally, here is a rundown on the whole idea presented.

Comments (31)

Shawn June 02, 2018 at 00:27 #184471
[Disregard]

Shawn July 04, 2018 at 05:15 #193662
Anyone?
TheMadFool July 04, 2018 at 06:05 #193671
Reply to Posty McPostface Nice corner. The paint is still fresh. How long has it been? A thousand years?

I like the following version. Allegedly it is the most general formulation of the problem:

(1) Which propositions are true?

(2) How can we tell which propositions are true?

Both 1 and 2 can be answered with "LOGIC" - the ultimate and only truth determiner in our world.

Of course, the problem loops back and asks how one determines the truth of LOGIC itself? The answer is LOGIC is self-proving mechanism.

SELF-PROVING MECHANISM:

1. If MOST/ALL predictions of LOGIC come true then LOGIC is true
2. MOST/ALL predictions of LOGIC come true
Therefore,
3. LOGIC is true

We move from a vicious circularity to a benign one.
Shawn July 04, 2018 at 06:13 #193674
Quoting TheMadFool
Of course, the problem loops back and asks how one determines the truth of LOGIC itself? The answer is LOGIC is self-proving mechanism.


Not sure about that last part, but I like where you're taking this. :smile:
TheMadFool July 04, 2018 at 06:31 #193676
Quoting Posty McPostface
Not sure about that last part, but I like where you're taking this. :smile:


We know a proposition to be true because we have the method of logic.

The criterion problem spills over into logic as logic itself is in a similar circularity. We can't prove logic is true because we would be assuming it's true if we do that.

But...

We can employ a strong argument in favor of logic which depends on its predictions coming true in every field of knowledge we know of since we even began thinking.
Shawn July 04, 2018 at 06:39 #193682
Quoting TheMadFool
We can employ a strong argument in favor of logic which depends on its predictions coming true in every field of knowledge we know of since we even began thinking.


Oh, well that's a monumental task at which Russell and the positivists have tried approaching. The positivists tried to tackle the problem through devising a method without addressing the particular, I think. You have to address both at the same time to not fail. Not sure. If you address the issue with logic alone you fail to address how we can pick out particulars, I think.

Wondering what others think about this...

Edit: You can see the culmination of the failure the positivists had, in the verification principle, in my opinion.
Shawn July 04, 2018 at 06:58 #193688
On the other hand, it seems like the particularistic aspect of addressing this problem has been easier to appeal to.

Anyone think science is a particularistic or methodist approach to the problem of the criterion?
TheMadFool July 04, 2018 at 06:59 #193689
Reply to Posty McPostface What I'm saying is there's a plethora of ''particulars'' in favor of the logical method. Using another logical progeny - mathematical probability - we see that the consistent performance of logic can't be a coincidence. Said differently, logic works as the method to prove the truth of propositions.

I guess the key ingredient in my argument is mathematical probability.
Shawn July 04, 2018 at 07:56 #193710
Quoting TheMadFool
What I'm saying is there's a plethora of ''particulars'' in favor of the logical method.


How so?

Quoting TheMadFool
Said differently, logic works as the method to prove the truth of propositions.


Yes, but knowledge and truth aren't the same. So no cigar, yet...
TheMadFool July 04, 2018 at 08:28 #193712
Quoting Posty McPostface
How so?


There are truths and falsehoods. In the beginning we have a method or a few particulars, it doesn't matter.

Say we start with particulars and we develop a method. As we accumulate more particulars the method gets automatically verified. The more particulars, the more stronger our method.

Now, imagine we had a method. We accumulate particulars. As we accumulate more particulars the method, again, gets automatically bolstered.

I guess I'm saying the required distinction for the Criterion problem to be a problem, viz. Particular vs method, isn't that clear enough. They seem to be in some kind positive loop instead of a negative one.
Shawn July 04, 2018 at 08:56 #193714
Reply to TheMadFool

Hmmm... So, to win you have to have each complementing the other?
TheMadFool July 04, 2018 at 09:01 #193716
Reply to Posty McPostface If there's a failure in either of the two (particular or method) inconsistencues would pop up every now and then and we wouldn't be able to comprehend the world. The fact that we do (most people think so) implies that the circularity is a positive feedback loop.

One could say that many of the problems in the world stem from the Criterion problem. Not enough particulars to go on to devise a suitable method or not good enough a method to cover all particulars.
Shawn July 04, 2018 at 09:05 #193718
Reply to TheMadFool

So, science is a method, hence; the scientific method...

Can you name any particular stances?

And, is the method approach winning against the particularistic one?
TheMadFool July 04, 2018 at 09:28 #193721
Quoting Posty McPostface
So, science is a method, hence; the scientific method...

Can you name any particular stances?

And, is the method approach winning against the particularistic one?


Both are two sides of the same coin and only together can we make a purchase.
Shawn July 04, 2018 at 09:29 #193722
Quoting TheMadFool
Both are two sides of the same coin and only together can we make a purchase.


Hmm, unsure about that. I think both cannot be spoken without the other. Kind of like dialectics?
TheMadFool July 04, 2018 at 10:12 #193730
Quoting Posty McPostface
Hmm, unsure about that. I think both cannot be spoken without the other. Kind of like dialectics?


I don't know. I can see them both come together like yin and yang; the parts may be confusing but the whole makes sense. I wonder what others have to say about this.
unenlightened July 04, 2018 at 12:23 #193766
If I knew, or even hypothesised, what Roderickite was - say that it was heavy and shiny - I would have a method, 'panning', for separating it from the sand. And I would have a criterion for recognising it when I obtained a sample. Marie Curie hypothesised [s]radium[/s] an unknown element as something with distinguishing properties (atomic weight) that gave her a method of distinguishing and separating it. Application of the method produced a substance with distinguishing properties, one of which was that it radiated light, and so the name, Radium.

But perhaps Roderickite is less like gold, and more like salt. In that case, the method would be to try and dissolve the sand in water and then filter and evaporate. If I have no idea what Roderickite is, then not only do I not have a method of separation, but I have no way of knowing whether any separation I might make has separated out Roderickite, or Unenlightendite, something completely different.

I think I am a dissolutionist about this problem. To pose the problem is already to have distinguished properties of knowledge that make it different, and thus to already have both a sample and some criteria and a method. To deny it is to deny knowing what the problem is that one is posing. It is to talk of 'knowledge' whilst denying that there is knowledge. That's nonsense.

Shawn July 04, 2018 at 12:37 #193769
Reply to unenlightened

I think I know where you're going with this. You mean to highlight how do names attain/obtain their meaning? Kripke might have the answer to this question, if anyone here is knowledgeable enough on Kripke... I ain't unfortunately.
Shawn July 04, 2018 at 12:49 #193776
Quoting unenlightened
I think I am a dissolutionist about this problem. To pose the problem is already to have distinguished properties of knowledge that make it different, and thus to already have both a sample and some criteria and a method.


Then, taking a step back, what does 'properties of knowledge' entail or mean to you? I feel as though we're setting the horse behind the cart here.

Quoting unenlightened
To deny it is to deny knowing what the problem is that one is posing. It is to talk of 'knowledge' whilst denying that there is knowledge. That's nonsense.


Again, we don't first arrive at knowledge without having some method or criteria for considering first as knowledge. So, maybe those have to be addressed first before we can talk about particulars instead of method. But, again, we're stuck in a loop again.

unenlightened July 04, 2018 at 15:26 #193828
Reply to Posty McPostface You're stuck in a loop, because you think you know what a loop is and how to be stuck in it. Don't start with knowledge at all, start with a method - the method of no method. "Fuck about and see what happens." There's your solid foundation. Then start giving names to what happens when you fuck about like this. Call that naming 'knowledge'. Only then can you even ask the question about samples and criteria. Otherwise, you are dealing with Roderickite and unenlightenedite, made up stuff devoid of meaning - so of course knowledge of it is impossible.
Shawn July 05, 2018 at 06:50 #193988
Quoting unenlightened
Don't start with knowledge at all, start with a method - the method of no method.


Oh, well I have nothing to go about on here. It's just nonsense all the way down from this starting point.

Quoting unenlightened
"Fuck about and see what happens." There's your solid foundation. Then start giving names to what happens when you fuck about like this.


Can we lay off the F-bombs? Seriously @unenlightened...

ChatteringMonkey July 05, 2018 at 08:44 #194087
Yeah well Posty McPostface that's the problem with framing these problems as logical problems in a vacuum. We start with a method allready build-in, our biology, and are taught language that has allready been develloped over the ages. We never start from a situation like proposed in the problem of the Criterion, it's an imaginairy problem.

The method of F-ing about is how it actually works.
Shawn July 05, 2018 at 08:51 #194090
Quoting ChatteringMonkey
The method of F-ing about is how it actually works.


Hu? Hows does that work out?
ChatteringMonkey July 05, 2018 at 09:30 #194097
We don't entirely know how the brain works, something with neural networks is the short of it... So we do things, information gets inputted in the brain via the senses and neural networks in the brain do their magic... rinse and repeat => knowledge.
unenlightened July 05, 2018 at 10:53 #194112
Quoting Posty McPostface
It's just nonsense all the way down from this starting point.


If I put it politely for you, it is play that is the beginning of knowledge. Play is imitation, recitation, messing about. This is not nonsense at all, it is the creativity of experimentation and exploration that starts without goal as purpose and becomes purposeful. The joy of smearing mud on a rock becomes the joy of art; playing dollies tea party with mud and water becomes panning for gold, or running a restaurant. Babble becomes philosophy.

One does not go looking for Roderickite that one has no idea what it is, one plays in the sand and something different comes out of that, and one calls it Roderickite.
Shawn July 05, 2018 at 16:14 #194141
Quoting unenlightened
If I put it politely for you, it is play that is the beginning of knowledge. Play is imitation, recitation, messing about.


Yes, but we do have to know the rules of the game first, if we want to play...

Quoting unenlightened
One does not go looking for Roderickite that one has no idea what it is, one plays in the sand and something different comes out of that, and one calls it Roderickite.


I feel as though we're getting lost here. Here is the gist of the criteria for determining knowledge:

Quoting Cardinal D. J. Mercier
If there is any knowledge which bears the mark of truth, if the intellect does have a way of distinguishing the true and the false, in short, if there is a criterion of truth, then this
criterion should satisfy three conditions: it should be internal, objective, and immediate.

It should be internal. No reason or rule of truth that is provided by an external
authority can serve as an ultimate criterion. For the reflective doubts that are essential to
criteriology can and should be applied to this authority itself. The mind cannot attain to
certainty until it has found within itself a sufficient reason for adhering to the testimony
of such an authority.

The criterion should be objective. The ultimate reason for believing cannot be a
merely subjective state of the thinking subject. A man is aware that he can reflect upon
his psychological states in order to control them. Knowing that he has this ability, he
does not, so long as he has not made use of it, have the right to be sure. The ultimate
ground of certitude cannot consist in a subjective feeling. It can be found only in that
which, objectively, produces this feeling and is adequate to reason.

Finally, the criterion must be immediate. To be sure, a certain conviction may rest
upon many different reasons some of which are subordinate to others. But if we are to
avoid an infinite regress, then we must find a ground of assent that presupposes no
other. We must find an immediate criterion of certitude.

Is there a criterion of truth that satisfies these three conditions? If so, what is it?


Found in the paper referenced in the OP.

It seems clear, elegant, and simple enough, yes?
Shawn October 26, 2018 at 21:20 #222690
Shameless bump.
Moliere October 26, 2018 at 22:50 #222707
Heh. I've read this thread a few times over and just couldn't think of a good response. Sorry posty. I know that my inclination is to say we know things, first. But I don't have much more than that to say.
Shawn October 26, 2018 at 23:01 #222712
Reply to Moliere

Well, yes, We do use knowledge about assessing the true and falsity of determinating knowledge. I was wondering about what criteria we use in determining knowledge.
Moliere October 26, 2018 at 23:09 #222713
Reply to Posty McPostface Aren't the criteria multifarious? It seems so to me. We can divide knowledge, roughly, into know-that and know-how -- but it is a rough division when we come to experience knowledge, I think. We can know-how to act in a play, we can know-that when acting we do this that and the other. We can know-that elements behave in a certain way under certain conditions, and we can know-how to demonstrate said knowledge.

But in both cases the knowledge we obtain isn't exactly commensurate, though we call both knowledge -- one is artistic and one is scientific; just to create another division of sorts.

It seems to me that the criteria of knowledge are highly specific to not just area of study but even time and place. Acting in a Shakespearean play when Shakespeare was alive would be different from acting in a Shakespearean play today. Doing chemistry in the time of Lavoisier differs from doing chemistry now. It all depends on our social arrangements, in a way, which are highly specific. Lavoisier could prove atoms existed through a fairly basic electrochemical reaction, and that mattered to the time because of the conflict between materialism and religion. Nowadays? You are kind of appealing to different groups. We are divided due to our experiences.

As to which starts first -- I don't know. I start with knowledge, but even starting with knowledge presupposes some element of what it is we know. Just as starting with a method presupposes some element of how we know.

How could you sort such a conundrum?
Shawn October 26, 2018 at 23:27 #222716
Quoting Moliere
Aren't the criteria multifarious? It seems so to me. We can divide knowledge, roughly, into know-that and know-how -- but it is a rough division when we come to experience knowledge, I think. We can know-how to act in a play, we can know-that when acting we do this that and the other. We can know-that elements behave in a certain way under certain conditions, and we can know-how to demonstrate said knowledge.


Experiential knowledge is prone to such analysis. It' more about how to do deal with ethical sentiments.

Quoting Moliere
It seems to me that the criteria of knowledge are highly specific to not just area of study but even time and place. Acting in a Shakespearean play when Shakespeare was alive would be different from acting in a Shakespearean play today. Doing chemistry in the time of Lavoisier differs from doing chemistry now. It all depends on our social arrangements, in a way, which are highly specific. Lavoisier could prove atoms existed through a fairly basic electrochemical reaction, and that mattered to the time because of the conflict between materialism and religion. Nowadays? You are kind of appealing to different groups. We are divided due to our experiences.


The gist of the sentiments is ethical ones.