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Behavioral diagnoses for p-zombies

The Great Whatever May 29, 2016 at 03:47 12925 views 101 comments
If you wanted to behaviorally test for the existence of p-zombies, assuming there was some way to empirically distinguish between them and non-p-zombie humans, wouldn't one of the most obvious options be to ask them whether they're p-zombies? You might think, oh, but the p-zombies would be behaviorally identical, so they'd just deny they were.

But that's not true -- lots of philosophers claim they're p-zombies. So why not believe them? Maybe p-zombies arent just a thought experiment. Maybe there literally are p-zombies, but we only notice in certain fringe situations, like reflectively asking people about it. What if some philosophers are so appalled at or confused by the idea of qualia, which ordinary people find not only perfectly reasonable, but difficult to conceive of even denying, because they don't have qualia, i.e. because they're p-zombies?

Comments (101)

Deleteduserrc May 29, 2016 at 03:56 #12383
Which philosophers claim to be p-zombies?
_db May 29, 2016 at 04:18 #12385
I highly doubt there are actually p-zombies. It'd be begging the question to assume that a structurally similar human being doesn't have consciousness...just because.

Those who deny qualia don't deny the seduction of appeals to qualia. You need to understand what people are talking about when they refer to qualia in order to even argue against it. Dennett does not deny that there are prima facie qualitative experiences, for example.

I would like to know which philosophers claim they are p-zombies. P-zombies are entities that distinctively lack something, while philosophers like Dennett don't think they lack something while others have it - they think that qualitative experience as a whole is a myth.
shmik May 29, 2016 at 04:44 #12386
I am completely blind, I don't experience sight at all. But I can function just as well as someone who does see, in every way. If we hung out you wouldn't even notice I was blind.

What would you think of someone who made that claim?
The Great Whatever May 29, 2016 at 05:10 #12388
Reply to shmik I'd think they were lying (like the aforementioned philosophers) ;)
The Great Whatever May 29, 2016 at 05:10 #12389
Quoting csalisbury
Which philosophers claim to be p-zombies?


Quoting darthbarracuda
I would like to know which philosophers claim they are p-zombies.


The majority of mainstream analytic philosophers.
The Great Whatever May 29, 2016 at 05:11 #12390
Quoting darthbarracuda
Dennett don't think they lack something while others have it - they think that qualitative experience as a whole is a myth.


Right, so since this view is obviously false, one hypothesis is that Dennett thinks this because he has no qualitative experiences, so they're incomprehensible to him.
Deleteduserrc May 29, 2016 at 05:47 #12391
Well it's obviously false that the majority of mainstream analytic philosophers profess to be p-zombies. But I see your point. I guess it's more that they move the goalposts.

One thing Dennett does a lot is give proust-if-proust-were-really-shitty sketches of e.g. watching the light play across the floor of his study. Or listening to some classical piece. (You almost expect him to nostalgically recount the twilight splendor of 18th century Versailles. When Dennett tries to prove he 'gets' the 'myth,' he always strives to be refined and delicate. Like Chaplin's tramp trying to appear a gentleman.) If he were really a p-zombie, the whole thing becomes almost a tragically beautiful pinocchio story. He's doing his best! 'Perhaps being conscious is like this? Is this not what it's like to see light? To hear music? See, I'm real!' Except I guess it would be a pinocchio story where pinocchio wants to be just real enough to prove that real boys are puppets too.
Deleteduserrc May 29, 2016 at 06:02 #12392
I think the answer is probably more like: people who rail against qualia
(1) have rigid self-images of being v serious, no-bullshit ppl (like more refined, socially respected, versions of those ppl who put darwin-jesus-fish stickers on their car)
(2) prob have a past of traumatic humiliation which they've tried to overcome via mastery of abstract language-games, to the point where they have trouble admitting there's anything outside the game. And so
(3) have a need - prob largely unconscious - to attack others who undermine the self-sufficient enclosure of their game.

The Great Whatever May 29, 2016 at 06:39 #12395
Reply to csalisbury That's a little psychoanalytical. I don't think an entire cultural or professional tendency can be reduced to individual quirks, unless these are somehow common to a large number of philosophers.
Deleteduserrc May 29, 2016 at 06:47 #12396
Not just a little, but unabashedly psychoanalytical. Institutions (including, natch, academic ones) attract certain tendencies and then reinforce them. Vast echo chambers that not only confirm your beliefs but make it difficult to network or get tenure without doubling down.

(+ are you not making the same appeal to individual eccentricity by positing the existence of p-zombie types? As in "I don't think an entire cultural or professional tendency can be reduced to individual p-zombiehood, unless this is somehow common to a large number of philosophers" )
The Great Whatever May 29, 2016 at 06:51 #12397
Quoting csalisbury
(+ are you not making the same appeal to individual eccentricity by positing the existence of p-zombie types?)


What if there's qualia gene buried somewhere? Outward signs include professing belief in qualia, being homosexual, and browsing DeviantArt?
Deleteduserrc May 29, 2016 at 06:58 #12398
lol I think it'd make a good Time cover story. "Could your children be having 'Experiences'?
The Great Whatever May 29, 2016 at 07:14 #12399
Reply to csalisbury The magical new breed of Indigo Children: kids claim to 'see' colors.
_db May 29, 2016 at 14:49 #12404
Quoting The Great Whatever
Right, so since this view is obviously false, one hypothesis is that Dennett thinks this because he has no qualitative experiences, so they're incomprehensible to him.


But Dennett is a typical human being with a similar structure to other human beings that profess having qualitative experiences. If those other people are right in that qualia is something, then Dennett most likely also experiences qualitative episodes. If those other people are wrong that qualia is something, then Dennett is right and everyone does not have qualia.

Should we think that those who believe in god are somehow structurally different than those who do not? No, one group just lacks a belief in what another group has. The phenomenon is the same, the interpretation is different. Otherwise it's basically begging to question.
Deleteduserrc May 29, 2016 at 16:20 #12406
[quote=darth]The phenomenon is the same, the interpretation is different.[/quote]
hmmmmmm
The Great Whatever May 29, 2016 at 19:26 #12408
Quoting darthbarracuda
Should we think that those who believe in god are somehow structurally different than those who do not?


I think that's a realistic possibility.
_db May 30, 2016 at 00:23 #12412
Reply to The Great Whatever Absurd. Those who believe in god are not so radically different from those who do not in the way that someone without qualia is different from someone with qualia. A belief regarding the ontology of qualia does not lead to you actually representing this ontology.
_db May 30, 2016 at 00:28 #12413
Reply to csalisbury What's wrong? The phenomenon is the existence of the world. The explanation or interpretation of this are various appeals to god (theism) or a rejection of these appeals (atheism).
Deleteduserrc May 30, 2016 at 00:38 #12415
Reply to darthbarracuda
Yes, but you mention this as analogous to qualia. What's the phenomenon which Dennett interprets one way and qualia-supporters another?
_db May 30, 2016 at 01:49 #12417
Reply to csalisbury Subjective, qualitative experiences. Dennett uses intuition pumps to try to break down this qualia and make it seem like a concept of folk psychology. He doesn't deny the prima facie ontology of qualia, though. Qualia is just a myth, according to Dennett.

It's not as if when defenders of qualia try to point out flaws in Dennett's reasoning, Dennett is metaphorically plugging his ears "lalala I can't hear you!" It's not as if Dennett and his opponents are talking about two different things. Dennett seems to be able, like any other rational human being, to change his mind. Should we automatically think that those who believe qualia is non-real are p-zombies? Shouldn't we give them the benefit of the doubt?

A philosophical zombie wouldn't even be able to comprehend the very concept of qualia. It would be like a blind man denying the color spectrum. Dennett is not a philosophical zombie (from the perspective of a supporter of qualia) because he clearly understands what qualia is supposed to be, and tries to reduce qualia to something non-qualitative. To his opponents, Dennett does not lack qualia, and to his supporters, everyone lacks qualia because qualia is seen as a myth.

I happen to disagree with Dennett on his position, but I certainly don't think that just because Dennett thinks qualia isn't real means that Dennett somehow is a philosophical zombie. I just think he's missing some pieces, and I believe that if these pieces were adequately brought forth, he might change his mind on his position.
The Great Whatever May 30, 2016 at 02:07 #12418
Quoting darthbarracuda
Should we automatically think that those who believe qualia is non-real are p-zombies? Shouldn't we give them the benefit of the doubt?


I don't understand. Wouldn't believing they're p-zombies be giving them the benefit of the doubt?

Quoting darthbarracuda
A philosophical zombie wouldn't even be able to comprehend the very concept of qualia.


But philosophers claim precisely not to be able to understand it, or that it's fundamentally confused, mistaken, or unintelligible. Aren't you just helping my case?
_db May 30, 2016 at 02:38 #12419
Quoting The Great Whatever
But philosophers claim precisely not to be able to understand it, or that it's fundamentally confused, mistaken, or unintelligible. Aren't you just helping my case?


You're equivocating not being familiar with something with not understanding what it is. Dennett, for example, is familiar with the concept of qualia, but does not seem to understand it in the way that qualia-supporters do.

If I give good reasons for denying the reality of color (say I create an argument that attempts to reduce color to something non-colorful in the same way Dennett attempts to reduce qualia to something non-qualitative), you wouldn't call me blind. I'm just arguing that color as an actual thing is a myth, better understood by appeals to reduction.

So Dennett isn't plugging his ears and claiming the elephant in the room doesn't exist. He's just claiming that the elephant (simpliciter) isn't an elephant but something else.
The Great Whatever May 30, 2016 at 14:19 #12432
Quoting darthbarracuda
So Dennett isn't plugging his ears and claiming the elephant in the room doesn't exist. He's just claiming that the elephant (simpliciter) isn't an elephant but something else.


I'm not saying he's plugging his ears. I'm saying maybe he doesn't understand the concept because he has no qualia.
Deleteduserrc May 30, 2016 at 15:56 #12437
Reply to darthbarracuda

What's the phenomenon which Dennett interprets one way and qualia-supporters another?

Darth: Subjective, qualitative experiences.


But this is to say that some people interpret qualitative experience as qualitative experience (which is not an interpretation) and that others interpret qualitative experiences as non-existent, even as phenomenon (which would mean there would be nothing to interpret at all, rendering the very idea of interpretation nonsensical.)

The analogy to religion doesn't work so well. What we interpret when we interpret religion (qua phenomenon, with ourselves at a distance) is human behavior, speech, texts. If Dennett's giving an interpretation of qualitative experience, as you say, then he's already conceded the point. (Now Dennett does want to interpret qualitative experience in a way similar to the interpretation of religion. Hence his goofy 'heterophenomenological method.' But this means evaulating claims about qualia based only on third person accounts, on the accounts of others or self-as-other. Just the way a p-zombie would go about handling the problem, since for him qualitative experience is necessarily always somewhere else, somewhere other.)
_db May 30, 2016 at 16:10 #12438
Quoting The Great Whatever
I'm not saying he's plugging his ears. I'm saying maybe he doesn't understand the concept because he has no qualia.


But this begs the question. Do we all have qualia? I'm apt to say that anything conscious does have qualia. But to say that Dennett is a p-zombie because he denies qualia is to beg the question that it is already proven that we have qualia.
_db May 30, 2016 at 16:20 #12439
Reply to csalisbury Of course we can't prove that Dennett has qualia, just as we can't prove that Dennett or anyone else outside of our own even have minds. This is Witty's box-beetle analogy all over again.

From a naive point of view, pain in the left big toe actually is in the big toe. But after contemplation we understand that there is no actual pain in the left big toe. It just seems that way. Should those who adhere to the naive point of view think that we don't actually feel pain in our left big toe when we stub our toe? Both camps feel pain, but identify them in different areas.

So Dennett "feels" (tongue in cheek) qualia but does not think there is actually any qualia at all. He does not assert this, he actually goes to great lengths attempting to show how our feelings of qualia are misguided. He attempts to deconstruct qualia.

Now, if we could adequately show or prove that qualia is a real thing, and Dennett still did not change his mind, then we would think him dogmatic or mentally compromised. We might even be able to claim that he is a p-zombie. But until we show the qualia is an actual thing, we're begging the question.
Deleteduserrc May 30, 2016 at 16:45 #12440
How would you define qualia?
_db May 30, 2016 at 16:48 #12441
Reply to csalisbury Individual instances of subjective, conscious experience. If Dennett can succeed in deconstructing qualia, he must show that somehow there is no such thing as conscious experience (what it is like-ness) and that this concept is somehow fundamentally flawed.

We shouldn't think Dennett to be a p-zombie for suggesting this. We should think of him as a rather dogmatic materialist, though. Someone who has made up his mind about materialism without considering all the angles.
Deleteduserrc May 30, 2016 at 16:51 #12443
How can you be conscious of qualia enough to 'get the myth' without being conscious?
_db May 30, 2016 at 16:55 #12444
Reply to csalisbury This is as I suspected: the thread is going to devolve into a thread about qualia itself, since without arguing for qualia, we can't assert that Dennett is a p-zombie without begging the question.

I don't really get Dennett's position. He has some good points but overall they don't convince me. Like I said before, I think this shows that Dennett is hell-bent on materialism, not that he is a p-zombie.
Deleteduserrc May 30, 2016 at 16:58 #12445
Yeah, but it's a funny idea
_db May 30, 2016 at 17:04 #12446
Reply to csalisbury About as funny as claiming nobody else has minds.
Deleteduserrc May 30, 2016 at 17:06 #12447
No, only claiming that those who claim they don't have minds, don't have minds
The Great Whatever May 31, 2016 at 04:07 #12458
That's what the Socratic method is all about. "You said it, not me." Why would Dennett take offense at people agreeing with him?
Michael May 31, 2016 at 08:03 #12460
I don't think (m)any philosophers claim to be p-zombies. What they claim is that the notion of qualia is not the proper way to understand consciousness.
TheWillowOfDarkness May 31, 2016 at 08:26 #12462
Reply to csalisbury I don't think we can, at least not in this sense it's proponents want. "Qualia" is more a less a placeholder for living the moment of consciousness. Since any description we give is only that, it always fails to amount to any moment of quaila. There is no such thing as a "what a likeness" because description is distinct from living. Our descriptions are only ever pointers to life, never the lived moment itself.

Dennett sort of alluding to this I think. We are readily fooled into thinking qualia is about describing. Supposely, it's the great failure of materialism and why the immaterialist is reflective of our experience. The immaterialist is thought to account for our lived experience to a greater extent.

The direction Dennett seems to be going is that this is an illusion. Since the lived moment is never description of that moment, there can be no account of quaila which IS the qualia of in question. The supposed strength of immaterialism, it's accounting of qualia, is a delusion because no such account is possible.

Given this, the supposition qualia needs to be described and that descriptions fail if they are not qualia fall into incoherence. No description was ever trying to be life. If are describing, we are always settling for something less than a lived moment of consciousness. By the inability of description to account for the lived moment, the supposed failure of materialism is shown to be an error based on the immaterialist's equivocation between description and life.

There are not "first person" and "third person" we experiences . All experiences are lived ( what "first person" is trying to talk about) and any description is different to what it is describing ( what "third person" is trying to speak about). The very idea of having a description which is life ("what is a likeness") is nonsensical and has us trying to replace life with mere description.
Deleteduserrc May 31, 2016 at 14:40 #12464
Reply to TheWillowOfDarkness Could you cite some quotes from Dennett supporting this idea you're attributing to him?
The Great Whatever May 31, 2016 at 15:01 #12465
Reply to Michael Aren't p-zombies just people with no qualia? So doesn't every philosopher who denies there are qualia, claim to be a p-zombie?
Michael May 31, 2016 at 16:14 #12468
Reply to The Great Whatever

P-zombies lack consciousness. Only if consciousness is to be understood as qualia would a lack of qualia mean a lack of consciousness. But some, e.g. Dennett, claim that this isn't the case. Although he's claiming to not have qualia he's not claiming to not have consciousness and so isn't claiming to be a p-zombie.

Although at best you could perhaps say that if consciousness really is to be understood as qualia then Dennett is inadvertently claiming to be a p-zombie.

Original post
P-zombies are people who are physiologically and behaviourally identical to conscious people but lack consciousness. Chalmers claims that because this is coherent it must be that consciousness is non-physiological/non-behavioural.

But some philosophers claim that if something is physiologically and behaviourally identical to conscious people then ipso facto it is conscious. So they're not claiming to be p-zombies; they're claiming that the notion of p-zombies doesn't make sense.
The Great Whatever May 31, 2016 at 17:48 #12469
Quoting Michael
But some philosophers claim that if something is physiologically and behaviourally identical to conscious people then ipso facto it is conscious.


If they claim people are conscious, then there is no dispute, since they don't think they're p-zombies.

But for those who think that consciousness at least as popularly conceived in terms of qualia is illusory, they literally are claiming that people who are behaviorally identical to humans (namely, all humans) lack consciousness (in the relevant sense), and so are p-zombies.

Of course, they may be justified in this claim using their own case, since as p-zombies they can't conceive of qualia. But for those who aren't, the argument won't be compelling.

Quoting Michael
they're claiming that the notion of p-zombies doesn't make sense.


That depends on what you mean. On certain understandings of the terms, many philosophers not only believe the concept makes sense, but is actualized in their own case and presumably for the case of all human beings. This won't be the case if you have some lame understanding of what 'consciousness' is (i.e., something other than consciousness) that is functional, behavioral, etc. But that's just definition-gerrymandering and produces nothing of substance, since it will probably end up borderline tautological and have nothing to say about consciousness in the interesting sense, i.e. subjective experience. If the latter is meant, of course the notion of a p-zombie makes sense, in the sense that the average person understand what's meant by it with no difficulty.
Michael May 31, 2016 at 17:49 #12470
Reply to The Great Whatever Oops. I heavily edited my post before you posted that. Apologies. I'll try and put it back in.
Hogrider May 31, 2016 at 19:18 #12472
A p-zombie, lacking in consciousness, would be incapable of understanding the question, let alone answering it.
The Great Whatever May 31, 2016 at 19:28 #12473
Quoting Michael
P-zombies lack consciousness. Only if consciousness is to be understood as qualia would a lack of qualia mean a lack of consciousness. But some, e.g. Dennett, claim that this isn't the case.


I can't understand the claim that consciousness doesn't consist in qualia as anything other than a redefinition of consciousness from its lay meaning to some technical meaning. But isn't the lay meaning what we're interested in? You can gerrymander the definition to show whatever you want, but the result won't be interesting.

By 'consciousness' I don't, and don't think I can, understand anything but qualia, at least if the term is used in anything like its ordinary way.
Michael May 31, 2016 at 19:43 #12474
Reply to The Great Whatever

It may be that Dennett is wrong in dismissing the sensibility of qualia, but because he isn't claiming that he doesn't have consciousness he isn't claiming to be a p-zombie.

At the very most you could argue that the claim "I am conscious and the concept of qualia is meaningless" is a contradiction.
The Great Whatever May 31, 2016 at 19:55 #12475
Reply to Michael But suppose that we can't make sense of consciousness on terms that doesn't somehow equate it with the presence of qualia. It would follow that the only way to deny that one has qualia is to deny that one is conscious.
Michael May 31, 2016 at 20:11 #12476
Reply to The Great Whatever

If I claim that the President is white and if I believe that Barack Obama isn't the President, am I claiming that Barack Obama is white?
The Great Whatever May 31, 2016 at 20:13 #12477
Reply to Michael Obviously not, but I don't see what that has to do with anything.
Michael May 31, 2016 at 20:13 #12478
Reply to The Great Whatever

So if I claim that I don't have qualia and if I believe that consciousness isn't qualia, am I claiming that I don't have consciousness?
The Great Whatever May 31, 2016 at 20:14 #12479
Reply to Michael You will be claiming that you don't have consciousness if your belief that consciousness isn't qualia can't be made sense of. For instance, suppose I claim I have no legs, but that I believe walking has nothing to do with legs -- do I therefore claim I can't walk? Of course I do, even though I deny it, because my belief that walking doesn't require legs is wrong (and perhaps nonsensical).
Michael May 31, 2016 at 23:17 #12481
Reply to The Great Whatever

With your approach we could always reverse the consideration. You claim you can walk. Walking requires legs. Therefore you claim you have legs. Dennett claims to have consciousness. Consciousness is qualia. Therefore Dennett claims to have qualia.

So if we make two contradictory claims, which one takes priority? Being able to walk or not having legs? Being conscious or not having qualia?

I don't think it makes sense to choose one way or the other. Just take them at their word. You're claiming to not have legs and to be able to walk. Dennett's claiming to be conscious and to not have qualia. The claims might be nonsensical, but that's a different matter.
The Great Whatever June 01, 2016 at 00:37 #12483
Quoting Michael
Just take them at their word.


But that's what I'm doing, taking Dennett at his word that he doesn't have qualia, and is is a p-zombie. Why not take him at his word that he has consciousness instead? Because the former, not the latter, is his primary theoretical motivation.
_db June 01, 2016 at 02:15 #12485
Reply to The Great Whatever If you believe that the absence of qualia makes someone a p-zombie, then the conclusion is rather trivial. It's like saying the disbelief in god makes someone an atheist. Of course it makes them an atheist, it's the definition of atheism. So of course if you define p-zombies in such a way that it means they lack any and all qualia, then they become p-zombies.

P-zombies are only a thing for those who take qualia seriously. Dennett doesn't take qualia seriously and would find the entirely concept of a p-zombie incoherent and empty. To say that Dennett is a p-zombie would again beg the question that qualia is something coherent.
The Great Whatever June 01, 2016 at 02:21 #12486
Quoting darthbarracuda
So of course if you define p-zombies in such a way that it means they lack any and all qualia


I didn't define anything?
_db June 01, 2016 at 02:27 #12488
Reply to The Great Whatever Come now, didn't you just define a p-zombie as a specimen that lacks qualia?

Quoting The Great Whatever
Aren't p-zombies just people with no qualia?


That's what I thought.
The Great Whatever June 01, 2016 at 03:55 #12493
Reply to darthbarracuda That's not my definition. That's just what the word means.
_db June 01, 2016 at 04:35 #12495
Reply to The Great Whatever So my point stands. If you don't have a definition of what a p-zombie is, your entire argument is empty. And if you stand that p-zombies are entities without qualia, your argument is trivial and question-begging.

unenlightened June 01, 2016 at 07:00 #12499
Perhaps one might ostensively define a philosophical zombie as something like one of those self-driving cars. It sees, it thinks, it decides, but it does not experience. Or so we might want to claim. The radical mechanist claims that we are all machines - it is a metaphor that pervades psychology and neuroscience at the moment.

So the notion of qualia seeks to reify (if you're agin'it) a substance of experience. Subjectivity is the soul of the irreligious. It's not that Dennett does not have legs but miraculously walks, so much as the legs miraculously walk without a Dennett.
Janus June 01, 2016 at 07:33 #12501
I'm coming to this thread rather late, but it intrigues me as to why TGW thinks that consciousness must be defined in terms of qualia. I wonder whether he has an argument to support that contention? I'm also wondering what TGW's descriptive account of qualia is.
Hogrider June 01, 2016 at 07:57 #12502
Quoting John
I'm coming to this thread rather late, but it intrigues me as to why TGW thinks that consciousness must be defined in terms of qualia. I wonder whether he has an argument to support that contention? I'm also wondering what TGW's descriptive account of qualia is.


Sometimes people are just wrong: maybe from a misunderstanding of "qualia" or a misunderstanding of the context of consciousness.
Hogrider June 01, 2016 at 07:59 #12503
The trouble with staring a philosophical discussion from a hypothetical which is impossible is that the discussion tends to find impossible results.
Michael June 01, 2016 at 08:20 #12505
Reply to Hogrider You mean p-zombies? They might not be (metaphysically) impossible. If consciousness really is something above-and-beyond brain activity and behaviour and whatnot then the p-zombie hypothesis is coherent.
Michael June 01, 2016 at 08:23 #12506
Reply to The Great Whatever I'd think that his commitment to his own consciousness takes priority. If he could be shown that consciousness really is qualia then he's more likely to accept that he has qualia than deny that he is conscious.
The Great Whatever June 01, 2016 at 17:30 #12515
Reply to Michael That's not the impression I get from the way he talks about his position. but okay.
The Great Whatever June 01, 2016 at 17:30 #12516
Quoting John
but it intrigues me as to why TGW thinks that consciousness must be defined in terms of qualia.


That's how the word is ordinarily used -- it isn't 'defined' that way.
Janus June 02, 2016 at 07:25 #12519
Reply to The Great Whatever

I don't think so. Consciousness is ordinarily understood to be consciousness of oneself, other people, animals, things, thoughts, bodily feelings, emotions, memories, not qualia.

The notion 'qualia' is itself not a naturally occurring, ordinary everyday idea, but an artificially produced, extraordinary philosophical idea, probably incomprehensible to, and certainly not spontaneously entertained by, most people.

The very fact that it is widely rejected by philosophers shows that it is far from being a necessary idea.
schopenhauer1 June 02, 2016 at 11:41 #12523
Quoting John
The very fact that it is widely rejected by philosophers shows that it is far from being a necessary idea.


I am not sure what is more immediate than the warmth and cold of touch, the taste of ice cream, the color of the sky, smell of something cooking, and the sound of a familiar song. Even if one or more of these senses are missing, other senses usually become dominant to one's conscious experience. Someone might call them sense perception. Association, reasoning, and conceptual analysis, recognition, or combination thereof, would be various other kinds of mental processes. One may be aware of certain qualias depending on where the mind is putting its attention, but that does not necessarily make the qualia go away, that just makes the value regarding that qualia change. The phenomena of qualia still remains, even if the mind's relationship to it changes. Many classical theories start with the fact that humans have sense experiences and work their way up from there. I don't see how it is relegated to practically nothing in your notion of consciousness.

Also, what are thoughts, bodily feelings, emotions, and the like without linkages to memories of qualia? Objects, even in the mind, have qualia associated with them. Emotions may bring up images and memories that also have qualia. Bodily feelings, arguably are qualia, but that of touch.
Janus June 02, 2016 at 11:46 #12524
Quoting schopenhauer1
I am not sure what is more immediate than the warmth and cold of touch, the taste of ice cream, the color of the sky, smell of something cooking, and the sound of a familiar song.


Why do think the things you list are qualia? Remember qualia are defined as something like 'qualities of experience'. I would say that when you see the blue sky you see blue sky not a quality of blueness or the experience of blueness. And likewise for your other examples.
schopenhauer1 June 02, 2016 at 12:11 #12525
Quoting John
Why do think the things you list are qualia? Remember qualia are defined as something like 'qualities of experience'. I would say that when you see the blue sky you see blue sky not a quality of blueness or the experience of blueness. And likewise for your other examples.


I am a bit confused by your definition of qualia then. When you see a blue sky, you see immediate sensations of quality such as blueness- even if you do not recognize what blueness is. The immediate sensation/experience that is perceived is the qualia. The discernment as to "which sensation is blue?" and the concept of "blue in sky vs. blue in pants", is not the same as the quality that is immediately given. In the human mind, qualia may be linked with these mental processes, but they are not the same. The qualia itself is, as you say, the qualities that we perceive or the qualities of experience. The attention given to these qualities, the feelings associated with it, the memories of similar qualities, the bundling of them into immediate concepts, etc. are interesting, but not necessarily the same thing.
Michael June 02, 2016 at 12:29 #12526
[quote=John]I would say that when you see the blue sky you see blue sky not a quality of blueness or the experience of blueness.[/quote]

I've never understood this sort of objection. It seems to me like saying "when I punch a person I punch a person; I don't punch a striking fist".

To punch someone is to strike them with your fist. To see a blue sky is to have certain qualitative sensations. That's what's claimed.

There's a difference between the intentionality of experience (the blue sky) and the substance of experience (the qualia, allegedly).
The Great Whatever June 02, 2016 at 12:39 #12527
Quoting John
I don't think so. Consciousness is ordinarily understood to be consciousness of oneself, other people, animals, things, thoughts, bodily feelings, emotions, memories, not qualia.


Not really. First of all, if someone asks, 'is he conscious?' what they mean is something like 'is he having experiences?' as opposed to being 'blacked out.' They don't mean 'is he conscious of x?' Second of all, you're not conscious of your emotions, at least not primarily; you have emotions, which are feelings. To be conscious is to have qualia, or experiences, not to be conscious of them.

This seems to me what people mean by 'consciousness,' and an attempt to redefine it and then deal with that technical notion isn't of that much interest.
The Great Whatever June 02, 2016 at 12:41 #12528
Quoting John
The notion 'qualia' is itself not a naturally occurring, ordinary everyday idea, but an artificially produced, extraordinary philosophical idea, probably incomprehensible to, and certainly not spontaneously entertained by, most people.


The word isn't naturally occurring, but the idea is. To deny that people have a notion of experience that's pretty much exactly what philosophers call qualia (and ordinarily people just call 'experience' or something like that) seems to me to be absurd and a losing battle. Philosophers don't want there to be such a thing, but that's a different matter.

Quoting John
The very fact that it is widely rejected by philosophers shows that it is far from being a necessary idea.


It obviously shows no such thing, but since you knew that I'm not sure why you said this.
The Great Whatever June 02, 2016 at 12:43 #12529
Quoting Michael
There's a difference between the intentionality of experience (the blue sky) and the substance of experience (the qualia, allegedly).


When people say things like this, I just don't know. Maybe there are p-zombies. Allegedly.
Deleteduserrc June 02, 2016 at 14:13 #12534
[quote=John]The notion 'qualia' is itself not a naturally occurring, ordinary everyday idea, but an artificially produced, extraordinary philosophical idea, probably incomprehensible to, and certainly not spontaneously entertained by, most people.[/quote]

Over on the other forum, somebody once characterized the invention of qualia (qua concept) as a dialectical response to eliminative materialism. Seems right. All that's really important about qualia is that, whoa, we actually do have qualitative experience which wouldn't be worth pointing out, because everyone knows that, unless someone started truculently denying it. Arguing with such a person, on their terms, is a fool's errand (like arguing with a solipsist) and can lead to desperate attempts to characterize consciousness in a way such a person might find palatable (though of course, they never do, and never will.) That's the real problem with qualia - that so many philosophers clumsily try to fit consciousness into a mould that doesn't make sense. Most objections to qualia are objections to the reification of consciousness, the idea of qualia as individual things. Obviously problems crop up when you use the language of substantives for something that's more like a verb (or adverb.) That's why the blue sky example misses the point, as Michael pointed out.

(By the by, much of what passes, in Dennett, or Churchland for the denial of consciousness is really the denial of a simple, unified, substantial soul. Dennett loves railing on the Cartesian theater. And that's well and good, but consciousness has been distinguished from a substantial soul for a long time, in many ways (one obvious touchstone here is Kant's antinomy re: the soul's substantiality which, for him, has nothing to do with the transcendental unity of apperception.) It's kind of the perfect sleight of hand. Conscious qualitative experience=Cartesian theater. Argue against the cartesian theater. Pretend you've thereby KO'd conscious qualitative experience. )
Hanover June 02, 2016 at 15:29 #12536
The OP seems to be the flip side of the question of whether rocks have consciousness. It's entirely possible that folks who are walking around appearing to be conscious are not, and it's entirely possible that things that don't appear conscious are (like rocks).

All that this means is that we can't know for certain what is taking place inside someone's mind, but it doesn't suggest that there'd be no difference between conscious and unconscious entities with exact behavior.
Michael June 02, 2016 at 17:38 #12541
Reply to John

Perhaps a better example than my first:

A painting of a cup is a painting of a cup, not a painting of paint and a canvas. But it is nonetheless the case that the painting is just paint and a canvas.

So an experience of a cup is an experience of a cup, not an experience of an image. But it is nonetheless the case that the experience is just an image (or so one theory goes).

You need something better than "I see a blue sky, not the quality of blueness" to actually address the core issue(s). Those who argue for qualia can accept that the intentional object of the experience is not qualia whilst still maintaining that the substance of the experience is qualia, just as one can accept that the intentional object of the painting is not paint whilst still maintaining that the substance of the painting is paint.
Janus June 03, 2016 at 00:23 #12555
Reply to schopenhauer1

I would say that we have no reason to think that prior to seeing anything as something, for example seeing a blue sky, it is any more a case of seeing Quoting schopenhauer1
immediate sensations of quality such as blueness
than it is of seeing a blue sky. I would say the notion of seeing "immediate sensations of quality" is secondary to and derivative of seeing anything as something.

Perhaps it may be said that primordially there are patterns, but primordial patterns do not count as qualities, since qualities are the reflexive judgements of subjects, and on any view of 'perception as constructed' (whether by nature or culture) subjects arise co-temporally with objects (such as the blue sky).

Perhaps it is not even appropriate to say that primordial patterns are seen (as opposed to say, simply registered) ( but then, is even the idea of simple registaration consonant with ideas of primordial noumenality?) prior to seeing as unless you want to posit unitary souls in both animals and humans, souls for whom the world is always already pre-conceptually intelligible.

The Great Whatever June 03, 2016 at 00:25 #12556
Quoting John
than it is of seeing a blue sky. I would say the notion of seeing "immediate sensations of quality" is secondary to and derivative of seeing anything as something.


This is just wrong, though. You can have visual experiences without seeing anything 'as' anything, but the reverse isn't true. So what sense of secondary can you possibly mean?
Janus June 03, 2016 at 00:43 #12560
Reply to The Great Whatever

Can you give an example of a visual experience that does not consist in seeing something as something?
The Great Whatever June 03, 2016 at 00:46 #12561
Reply to John Afterimages, having light flash at you, jaundice, shutting your eyes, scintillating scotoma, the ever-elusive and mythical phenomenon of not being sure what you're looking at, you know, crazy philosopher shit.
Janus June 03, 2016 at 00:54 #12562
They are not examples of not seeing something as something. You see an afterimage as an afterimage. a light flashed at you as a light flashed at you, scintillating scotoma as scintillating scotoma and so on. Otherwise how would you be able to identify and differentiate those experiences as such?

Remember, seeing something indefinite counts as seeing something as something as much as seeing something definite does. Both experiences are always already conceptually articulated as either definite or indefinite.
The Great Whatever June 03, 2016 at 01:28 #12564
Quoting John
They are not examples of not seeing something as something. You see an afterimage as an afterimage. a light flashed at you as a light flashed at you, scintillating scotoma as scintillating scotoma and so on. Otherwise how would you be able to identify and differentiate those experiences as such?


Not really, no. You don't have to individuate something as 'a flash of light' to experience a flash of light. In fact that would make seeing really fucking hard, you'd never be able to see anything, always having to think about what it was before you could experience anything.

Quoting John
Remember, seeing something indefinite counts as seeing something as something as much as seeing something definite does. Both experiences are always already conceptually articulated.


So evidence against your position counts as evidence for it.
Janus June 03, 2016 at 01:47 #12566
Quoting The Great Whatever
Not really, no. You don't have to individuate something as 'a flash of light' to experience a flash of light. In fact that would make seeing really fucking hard, you'd never be able to see anything, always having to think about what it was before you could experience anything.


You're misunderstanding what I am saying; I am not saying you have to explicitly think about what you are seeing in order to see things. Animals see things too, I imagine. The understanding of what you are seeing is pre-explicatory; but if there is no implicit (I hesitate to say "pre-conceptual" but would certainly say "pre-linguistic") understanding of what you are seeing then it makes no real sense to say that you are seeing anything.
The Great Whatever June 03, 2016 at 01:50 #12567
I don't understand how anything could be evidence against your position. Not seeing something as something for you is just evidence you see it 'as' something indistinct.
Janus June 03, 2016 at 02:00 #12568
If there is no possible evidence against it, then it must be correct, no? 8-).

But then again, we are supposedly talking philosophy, and philosophical positions generally do not admit of evidence, but are rather judged in terms of clarity, coherence and consistency, no?

What would constitute evidence against any of the well-worn standpoints? Plato's Forms, Aristotle's notion of causality, Spinoza's idea of substance, Hegel's Absolute Spirit: what do you imagine could constitute evidence against any of those ideas?
Janus June 03, 2016 at 02:04 #12569
Reply to The Great Whatever

And I would not word it that way. I would say that not seeing something as distinct is seeing something as indistinct; in both cases something is seen as something. It simply does not make sense to speak of seeing in cases where nothing is seen.
The Great Whatever June 03, 2016 at 02:05 #12570
Reply to John OK, I disagree. So what?
The Great Whatever June 03, 2016 at 02:09 #12571
Quoting John
and philosophical positions generally do not admit of evidence,


Sure they do -- but this insight into how you see the matter is illuminating, I guess.
Janus June 03, 2016 at 02:17 #12573
Reply to The Great Whatever

Can you give an example of some evidence (presuming here that you mean empirical evidence and not merely 'evidence' from a theory's "clarity, coherency and consistency") that supports or goes against any philosophical position?
_db June 03, 2016 at 04:58 #12621
Reply to John I smell an epistemicist.
Michael June 03, 2016 at 08:05 #12624
Reply to John Some say that current science is evidence against traditional materialism (which differs from modern physicalism) and the naïve realist view of perception.
Janus June 03, 2016 at 09:27 #12626
Reply to darthbarracuda

I have no idea why you would say that.
Janus June 03, 2016 at 09:36 #12627
Reply to Michael

I would agree that the kind of physicalism that seems to go so well with modern science (specifically QM) is evidence that the older materialist views that seemed to go so well with Newtonian mechanics, have waned along with the older mechanistic science. In other words it is evidence that human worldviews are profoundly influenced by science. This is certainly an empirically attested sociological fact.

There would not seem to be any empirical evidence which will answer the philosophical question as to whether human worldviews should be profoundly influenced by science, though
schopenhauer1 June 03, 2016 at 11:41 #12628
Quoting John
but if there is no implicit (I hesitate to say "pre-conceptual" but would certainly say "pre-linguistic") understanding of what you are seeing then it makes no real sense to say that you are seeing anything.


So, pre-linguistic babies don't see color due to not having language? I see. I think, even if that was correct as to the proper cognitive origin of sense experience, the qualia is not explained away, it is there, but via that mechanism. The qualia itself remains, just given a different take on its origins. Some people focus on the rods and cones and optic nerves.. If I replace that with your explanation or anything "x" with your explanation, it will only be an explanation. The explanation is not the experience. You cannot talk yourself out of the fact that a blue sky is presenting itself to your mind's integration of things and that this feeling of quality exists.

It happens your explanation seems to be a bit odd, since I can imagine a baby that was not taught language does, in fact, experience qualia and is not a p-zombie. Do animals not have any internal "what it's like to feel" aspect because they do not have language? The senses, one can say, works independently from the mechanism which encapsulate them into integrated concepts.
_db June 03, 2016 at 15:26 #12633
Reply to John It means a philosophical theory and its competitors are empirically equivalent.
Janus June 04, 2016 at 00:49 #12656
Reply to schopenhauer1

No, I haven't said that a pre-linguistic baby (or a suitably equipped animal) does not see colour, but I would say it does not experience seeing colour.

Also, a p-zombie is defined as not experiencing anything. So, on that account people are not p-zombies, obviously. I say that people do not experience qualia or 'qualities of experience', that is just an aberrant notion, in my view. People experience things, other people, cities, landscapes, animals and so on.

Also with the notion of 'qualia' itself there is some equivocation about whether it refers to something like 'raw sense data' or 'the subjective quality of experience', both of which I would say are different chimeras.
Janus June 04, 2016 at 00:57 #12657
Reply to darthbarracuda

I was not familiar with the term, and I was hoping you would explain it.

Wiki definition:
Epistemicism is a position about vagueness in the philosophy of language or metaphysics, according to which there are facts about the boundaries of a vague predicate which we cannot possibly discover. Given a vague predicate, such as 'is thin' or 'is bald', epistemicists hold that there is actually some sharp cut off, dividing cases where a person is actually thin from those in which they are not. Epistemicism gets its name because it holds that there is no semantic indeterminacy present in vague terms, only epistemic uncertainty.


I don't believe that there are "sharp cut offs" which determine so-called vague terms. Nor do I think there is no "semantic indeterminacy" in vague terms. So, it would appear that I do not qualify as an epistemicist, unless you can show that some of my claims necessarily entail these beliefs I am disavowing.
_db June 04, 2016 at 03:34 #12665
Reply to John Nah what Wikipedia said isn't what I was talking about. I meant Karen Bennett's epistemicism - realism about metaphysical questions but skeptical of any answers to them, because they are empirically equivalent and theoretical virtues are meaningless. Thus there is no good reason to choose one position over the other.
Janus June 04, 2016 at 04:06 #12667
Reply to darthbarracuda

I don't know what it could mean to be a "realist about metaphysical questions". For me metaphysical questions deal with what different possibilities we can (logically speaking) think; and what the presuppositions involved in those different possibilities would be. We may very well have good reasons to think one possibility is more likely than another, but I appreciate the fact that people differ when it comes to what they think constitutes "good reasons".

I certainly don't think, as some on these forums do, that science is necessarily our best guide to metaphysics; although I do think it should be taken into account.
_db June 04, 2016 at 04:58 #12671
Reply to John Realism about metaphysical questions just means that they are legitimate questions, not semantic ones. I believe that questions about time, composition, universals, persistence, etc are legitimate questions and cannot be reduced to language as deflationary theorists claim.
Janus June 04, 2016 at 06:19 #12673
Reply to darthbarracuda

I agree about those being legitimate questions, but I think for me their legitimacy has nothing to do with realism; it is, rather, experiential as well as logical.

Those questions are legitimate because, for example, we actually experience time, composition and persistence and, although we do not experience them, universals present legitimate puzzles about difference, sameness and identity that are inherent to thinking itself and not confined merely to conventions of language usage.

I tend towards logical or conceptual realism, which I would also call 'metaphysical realism' except the latter is always strawmanned by anti-realists as some claim about what purportedly lies beyond experience. I don't think the claim that objects are mind-independent, for example, means anything more than that they experienced as being objects available for anyone to see, or feel or hear or whatever, as distinct from mind dependent phenomena like memories or hallucinations that are not available for more than one percipient.

What mind independent objects 'are' in some imagined 'ultimate sense' is unknowable and may not even be a coherent question. But that is what antirealists falsely proclaim that all realists are necessarily making some claim about.

'Course I dunno what that has to do with p-zombies, but you started on this particular tangent...
TheWillowOfDarkness June 05, 2016 at 05:13 #12690
Reply to csalisbury I don't think he does per se. He's too close to the rhetoric of reductive materialism. For him it's a matter of clearly asserting the non-existence of qualia due to its claimed ineffable nature. I'd go has far as to say he lacks the concept of qualia to state the argument I did. His rhetoric comes out saying "qualia" does not exist, so it rubs people interested in moments of life the wrong way. He's saying moments of experience don't exist.

My point was, however, is Dennett is doing something other than merely asserting qualia doesn't exist. He's deconstructing it say that, as proposed by the immaterialists, it doesn't make sense because they are suggesting the ineffable has description. He's attempting to break down a mistake in our understanding of consciousness.

The reason his position appears confused is becasue he's rejected qualia while still holding there is consciousness to describe. In his deconstruction of qualia, he's realised it's not needed to describe consciousness, so he's happy to say he is conscious without qualia.

Taken literally he's saying he's conscious (has experiences which are described) without his experiences ever existing (no qualia, no moment of experience). He leaves out the indexical pointer ( "qualia") to moments of experience. It like if I was to say: "I don't exist" but than say: "Willow is making a post of thephilosophyforum." It looks like he's saying things exist in description but never in the moment.

In the end he doesn't quite grasp consciousness, he says "qualia doesn't exist" when he should say "qualia cannot be described, so it has no relevance to describing our experiences."