Reply to Sapientia I have learnt that if you learn how to cook, even a few ingredients is enough and over time you can save a substantial amount of money. Spending money on maccers, it is no wonder he has no food in the fridge.
Fast food is hella expensive, if he bought real food he probably would have enough. I lost my mind when I was starving, laying on a park bench with no where to go contemplating suicide, so I think it's probably good for you. Probably good berries around, and if you are near a city they often plant pear and plum trees around, and you can find out where.
I have learnt that if you learn how to cook, even a few ingredients is enough and over time you can save a substantial amount of money. Spending money on maccers, it is no wonder he has no food in the fridge.
I see. So all he needs to do is steal a few ingredients, or prostitute himself to earn the money to buy a few ingredients.
I have no need to un or re spill anything; my aesthetic sense reigns supreme in this forum of hell-bent rational analytic couch-surfers! And that's 'cause I'm drunk and not totally sure what all I can get away with around here!
Reply to Michael Don't mess with the best movie of all time. In saying that, women are supposed to have more fat then men and yet men have more lean mass or whatever, I don't care.
Reply to Baden He just asked you to wrestle him down to the floor, while giggling and tickling one another until you find that moment where you stare into each others' glistening eyes and realise the inevitable has come.
I don't have like a medical report, or something, I'm 5'10.25, about 162, so that is like high end 22, low end 23 I think. Though, like I said, it doesn't mean much, it doesn't take other factors into account, and is average for everyone. I'm clearly more muscular than average, and have well defined musculature, so someone with the same bmi doesn't mean much to me. I imagine that it is a vague estimation, I think that waist to shoulder ratio is a way better indication. My shoulders are like 48' and my waist 31'.
Don't mess with the best movie of all time. In saying that, women are supposed to have more fat then men and yet men have more lean mass or whatever, I don't care.
All you need to know is that the BMI is a pretty useless measure. People with low fat but big muscles can classify as obese under it.
I don't have like a medical report, or something, I'm 5'10.25, about 162, so that is like high end 22, low end 23 I think. Though, like I said, it doesn't mean much, it doesn't take other factors into account, and is average for everyone. I'm clearly more muscular than average, and have well defined musculature, so someone with the same bmi doesn't mean much to me. I imagine that it is a vague estimation, I think that waist to shoulder ratio is a way better indication. My shoulders like like 48" and my waist 31.
Reply to Michael There is a difference between body fat and visceral fat ratios, though and my overall total puts me in the healthy range. We women have concentrations in particular areas.
There is a difference between body fat and visceral fat ratios, though and my overall total puts me in the healthy range. We women have concentrations in particular areas.
@Wosret I will release my BMI and show you that it is 21.98 if you take back your false accusations that I lie about myself and write me an apology letter :D
Reply to TimeLine He has to write in it "Agustino is an honourable man who has been disgraced by my false slander of his reputation. I sincerely apologise for all the nefarious consequences I have brought on his name and take back the false accusations I have made. With the warmest regards, Wosy"
Reply to Agustino It's night, the ceilings are high, I have black stockings and a black fireplace. I also can't be bothered getting up to make it more visible. Deal with it.
I can't recall if I posted any of myself at the old site. I think I did. I've lost 30kg since then so it might be worth posting some more recent shots, to banish your fat mental images.
OK, I've managed to find out that the photos of me as a Spartan are on page 127 of that thread. The Wayback Machine has page 126 and page 131 but nothing in between. Sigh.
Yes, even friendship can be harmful, depending on the stage of depression. If people are very depressed, they may further alienate themselves from their friends by being rude, etc. This would then make them feel like they are bad people, which would make them even more depressed, and so on.
Depression is very difficult to treat. And this tough guy approach of Peterson, Hanover and other conservatives of their ilk is stupid - it doesn't really work unless by work we just mean getting someone to conform to an arbitrary image that happens to be looked up to in society.
If I was depressed, without a job and without money, with no friends, and with no intimate relationship(s), and I went into Peterson's office and he told me to go get a job, get some friends, and start dating, I'd get up and leave instantly. Why? Because it takes no consideration of who I want to be, and what I value in life... Maybe I just want to fix one aspect of my life first - say the money and career aspect. I don't want to be sidetracked by other things. And so on so forth. It all depends on who you want to be. As an entrepreneur for example, who has been working for himself, I probably wouldn't accept to hold a job now, unless I was really starving. And that's just one small example.
Really, how can anyone give credence to these one-a-dime ideas? :s What's Pete promoting here if not just the "average" way recommended by Western society anyway? :s
Yes, even friendship can be harmful, depending on the stage of depression. If people are very depressed, they may further alienate themselves from their friends by being rude, etc. This would then make them feel like they are bad people, which would make them even more depressed, and so on.
Human contact is still necessary to overcome depression.
Depression is very difficult to treat. And this tough guy approach of Peterson, Hanover and other conservatives of their ilk is stupid - it doesn't really work unless by work we just mean getting someone to conform to an arbitrary image that happens to be looked up to in society.
I don't know what image you mean. I'm just saying that doing some kind of productive activity is extremely important. You will descend into greater depression by being slothful.
Human contact is still necessary to overcome depression.
Not everyone lacking human contact is depressed necessarily. There are war prisoners for example who spent years in solitary confinement, and they managed to hold together even in those circumstances. And "human" contact, in particular, isn't especially necessary. Animal contact works too. Dogs are good for depression. But I obviously agree that real isolation (check my reply to Wosret) is a problem and should be fixed (if at all possible).
I don't know what image you mean. I'm just saying that doing some kind of productive activity is extremely important. You will descend into greater depression by being slothful.
Okay so what if I am a 20 year old who quit his job, and am now spending all my days reading non-stop philosophy, science, etc.? Am I "slothful"? Do I need to "get a job"? :s
Saying that productive activity is important is true. But productive activity isn't the same as getting a job. Maybe I want to be a novelist - in which case Pete should encourage me to write, not to "get a job".
He recommends starting with starting with one small thing to change, though. His followers have a bed making meme he says it so often.
Yes, and I don't disagree with that, but it must be directed according to the person's aims. For example, there was one time when I was in University when my parents were trying to force me to date, even though I didn't want to, since it didn't jive with my aims at that time.
Reply to Thorongil In fact I remember 6 or so years ago when I went to a therapist due to anxiety/depression/OCD and guess what, I encountered these same stock questions and stock answers, and they weren't helpful at all :s - basically the therapist was totally incapable, except to parrot certain answers and attempt to convince me of their validity. She wasn't someone who could guide you - I want to get X place, how do I go about it? No, she was someone who was lazy and just gave stock answers - just one more patient, who cares, take these pills, go home, make sure you meet friends, study, etc. :s - that's when I realised that when you really need help in this world, there generally isn't any. Most people, myself included, can barely solve our own problems (and that's true even for the Bill Gateses of this world), much less those of others. Most therapists included don't want to deal with the real complexities of individual situations, but will resort to stock answers and images - good ones are very rare.
Here's a better argument: work is typically listed amongst the top causes of stress, and stress can lead to depression. One website even specifically mentioned changes of employment status, including new employment.
With regards to jobs like psychiatrist/psychologist, there's also the issue that, much like politics, economics, marketing etc. I don't think these fields are "scientific". I don't think there's anything like a "science" of management for example.
For example, it was much easier for me to add marketing to my services than to initially get into web dev. And I take some clients for marketing and I know I have no clue if what I'm proposing will help them, but I try it and adjust by trial and error etc. :s - and everyone else who I see doing this job does the same. And we all claim to "get results", to do it "methodically and scientifically" - in other words, that we really know what we're doing. But the real truth, that many marketers may not want to admit, is that nobody knows what they're doing really - it's just giving the impression to others that you know, it's all reputation... In truth, we're all pretty much using the same techniques and tactics, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
And I think management, for example, is much the same. People go around putting "manager" on their CVs, proud that they know leadership theories, they attend leadership workshops, learning how to lead......... :s Who has time to believe these people?
Well, you always talk about girls, so does it feel good runnin' around after them on your knees the whole time, always thinking about them, so on so forth? Real question :D
Yeah, but running is tiring - best not to run at all ;) .
I ran after a girl awhile ago in the park... after I let her have a big lead compared to me in running, I wanted to test myself if I could overtake her in less than 1 lap. And I did, but she had started walking...
I ran after a girl awhile ago in the park... after I let her have a big lead compared to me in running, I wanted to test myself if I could overtake her in less than 1 lap. And I did, but she had started walking...
LOL, no there was no time for that cause she was already out of sight by the time I had started running after her. I didn't think I'd actually manage to catch up to her before 1 lap, so I was quite surprised I did.
I frequently test myself in running against other runners :D - I'm very competitive like that.
That's why you started running after her; because she was out of sight and you wanted to check out her ass.
LOOL!! Actually, I always run after other runners in the park - to check how good I am compared to them. I'm a competitive person lol. I don't actually remember how she looked, or what she was wearing for that matter...
One time in first year of University, I went to an English club for the first time at a friend's birthday, and I had to literarily run away to escape from this blonde girl who wasn't leaving me alone :-O
Did you lap her, too? Because that would have been counterproductive.
No, I literarily didn't do anything to her, and even pushed her away, and still I couldn't get completely rid of her inside the club. So I had to run away >:O
She was crazy! I was still with my high-school girlfriend at that time...
No, I literarily didn't do anything to her, and even pushed her away, and still I couldn't get completely rid of her inside the club. So I had to run away
Reply to Agustino To lap someone is to pass them in a race after already being ahead of them (e.g. you're on your second lap and they're still on their first). I was referring back to your earlier claim.
To lap someone is to pass them in a race after already being ahead of them (e.g. you're on your second lap and they're still on their first). I was referring back to your earlier claim.
Oh that meaning >:O >:O - thankfully no, I never had the unfortunate chance of meeting her again.
Okay so what if I am a 20 year old who quit his job, and am now spending all my days reading non-stop philosophy, science, etc.? Am I "slothful"? Do I need to "get a job"?
That would be a job, if one is supporting oneself with it.
Saying that productive activity is important is true. But productive activity isn't the same as getting a job. Maybe I want to be a novelist - in which case Pete should encourage me to write, not to "get a job".
Being a novelist, if it supports your well being, would be a job. However, there is no possibility of simply writing novels or reading philosophy without some means of providing sustenance. I would like nothing more than to read philosophy and great literature all day. I'm actively trying to achieve just such a thing. But I can't right now, and I may not ever be able to. I'm not Schopenhauer who conveniently has a rich father to bequeath a fortune, enabling me to just go read philosophy. I have to work a shitty job and see if I can get into graduate school, and then after that, see if I can become a professor to even come close.
Here's a better argument: work is typically listed amongst the top causes of stress, and stress can lead to depression. One website even specifically mentioned changes of employment status, including new employment.
There's an equivocation going on here. What you and Agustino mean by work is not what I'm conceiving of it as.
Reply to Sapientia And if the depressed person needs to work to survive, then work they must. But if they don't, then my position remains that it is good for them to find some kind of productive activity. Learning an instrument. Exercise. Reading. Etc.
Being a novelist, if it supports your well being, would be a job.
Well, it's not a job. A job means having an employer who pays you a salary at the end of the month, and who sets your schedule, how you dress, what you have to do, etc. I don't have a job currently, for example, being self-employed.
Being a novelist, if it supports your well being, would be a job. However, there is no possibility of simply writing novels or reading philosophy without some means of providing sustenance. I would like nothing more than to read philosophy and great literature all day. I'm actively trying to achieve just such a thing. But I can't right now, and I may not ever be able to. I'm not Schopenhauer who conveniently has a rich father to bequeath a fortune, enabling me to just go read philosophy. I have to work a shitty job and see if I can get into graduate school, and then after that, see if I can become a professor to even come close.
There are ways for you to reach Schopenhauer's level. You wouldn't need that much money since I suppose you'd have low costs, and wouldn't spend a lot, like me. If you make $1 mil, that's more than plenty. Not easy to do, but not impossible either. If you start the right business you can easily reach it in less than 10 years of hard work.
And actually, if Schopenhauer went to Pete for depression, he'd tell him to get a job >:O
And if the depressed person needs to work to survive, then work they must. But if they don't, then my position remains that it is good for them to find some kind of productive activity. Learning an instrument. Exercise. Reading. Etc.
Sure, that's generally good advice. But Agustino is also right that what's generally good advice might be bad advice for a particular individual.
Well, it's not a job. A job means having an employer who pays you a salary at the end of the month, and who sets your schedule, how you dress, what you have to do, etc. I don't have a job currently, for example, being self-employed.
Sure, anyone can redefine words to fit their purposes.
There are ways for you to reach Schopenhauer's level. You wouldn't need that much money since I suppose you'd have low costs, and wouldn't spend a lot, like me. If you make $1 mil, that's more than plenty. Not easy to do, but not impossible either. If you start the right business you can easily reach it in less than 10 years of hard work.
No, this is pie in the sky optimistic nonsense. It took me several months just to find the crappy part time job I have now. I'm trained in the humanities. I don't know anything other than how to read, write, and (hopefully) think. There will be no business creating or million dollar making for me.
Sure, anyone can redefine words to fit their purposes.
Well ironically, I think that's what you've done, because to most people a job just means having an employer. If you don't have an employer, you don't have a job...
No, this is pie in the sky optimistic nonsense. It took me several months just to find the crappy part time job I have now. I'm trained in the humanities. I don't know anything other than how to read, write, and (hopefully) think. There will be no business creating or million dollar making for me.
Finding a job and starting a business are two entirely different things. You could be terrible working at a job (or even finding a job), and still succeed in the business world. They're two different skills. In fact, someone who works at a prestigious job generally does not learn what it takes to start a business.
There have been many entrepreneurs who barely made ends meet, till they got lucky and became an overnight success. The poet Felix Dennis was one of them. Before Bruce Lee mysteriously died, he was a struggling low-time British businessman barely making ends meet. He didn't even have a college degree. Lee's death, however, made his book and magazine into an instant success. He reinvested profits in computer magazines, and he made for himself a gigantic fortune (>$900 million).
And the business world is also not gradual. It's not like if you had a 70K/year job you'd be any closer to business success than if you have a 10K/year job.
Also, you can write better than most people I suppose. That's a very important skill to have, especially nowadays when most people cannot put two words together. From marketing to publishing - the entire field is open to you. Write an eBook on some narrow topic, market it. Start a blog in a niche that people are interested in, keep adding content over the years, place ads on it, start selling stuff on it, etc. Start a editing and proofreading business like Baden. You can do lots of things. You'd just need to spend a little time getting familiar with marketing, how the internet works, building a reputation for yourself, etc. If you divide your spare time between reading philosophy and this, then you can certainly do it. Your skills are far more valuable than you realise.
But I do understand the fear one feels when "starting out" in the real world, whether in getting a job, or starting a business and so on so forth. And I hate saying into "the real world" cause unfortunately we should all have been in the "real world" way sooner. But our society is messed up, and our Universities are structured so that you don't learn any real skills, so that you can be dependent on others after. You think I learned much of practical skills because I did engineering? :s Pf. If you were to try to go and be an independent engineer based just on the skills you learn from University, you wouldn't ever do it - you wouldn't even get chartered... Nobody learns what is really required in University. Nobody gives you a free bread in this world. Do not imagine that ANY employer has your interest at heart. None do. They just want to use your labour. You have to learn, study and take it yourself. You have to teach yourself the skills you need. Part of what I learned in University though is that adults know no better than me - so I learned to trust my own judgement. I had one professor especially, whom I loved, and who always asked "Why do you ask me?! You are the expert! You have to use your own judgement to determine what is right and wrong"
But it's important to always remain open-minded. When you become closed-minded like you tended to by saying you'll never end up with a lot of money, then you make it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. As Heraclitus said, if you do not expect the unexpected, you will not find it. Always remember that the gap between being broke and medium success is always larger than the gap between being broke and massive success in any field for that matter. The secret is to use what you already have - the world always wants to make you think you're not good enough, that's what its job is.
Well ironically, I think that's what you've done, because to most people a job just means having an employer. If you don't have an employer, you don't have a job...
Which rules out self-employed jobs. I guess you don't have a job, then.
From marketing to publishing - the entire field is open to you. Write an eBook on some narrow topic, market it. Start a blog in a niche that people are interested in, keep adding content over the years, place ads on it, start selling stuff on it, etc. Start a editing and proofreading business like Baden. You can do lots of things. You'd just need to spend a little time getting familiar with marketing, how the internet works, building a reputation for yourself, etc. If you divide your spare time between reading philosophy and this, then you can certainly do it. Your skills are far more valuable than you realise.
The problem is that you need money and time in order to make money this way, neither of which I have. And I'd rather not add to my university debt in some harebrained business-starting venture thank you very much.
But I do understand the fear one feels when "starting out" in the real world, whether in getting a job, or starting a business and so on so forth. And I hate saying into "the real world" cause unfortunately we should all have been in the "real world" way sooner. But our society is messed up, and our Universities are structured so that you don't learn any real skills, so that you can be dependent on others after.
This is why I continue down the academic track. And I keep becoming a monk or hermit in the back of my mind as well.
The problem is that you need money and time in order to make money this way, neither of which I have.
You do need time (obviously), but not money (though obviously, if you do have access to money that can be helpful too). You can start with $0 (a blog is free to open, you can switch to your own hosting and domain after you start getting traffic that justifies it).
And I'd rather not add to my university debt in some harebrained business-starting venture thank you very much.
I'm not sure how it in US, but in some places, you can avoid paying your uni debt (depending on how you financed it) if you earn very little officially. Most people have a wrong idea of starting a business. The idea is to start with 0 capital and earn and reinvest. I did literarily start working on my own with $0 capital investment (then you can buy more, including learning resources, etc.). Most businessmen start like this actually... very few people have access to sources of capital - Michael Bloomberg did, for example - he was a big banker before he started his business which worked, surprisingly, with big banks :-} . But most people who start in business are people with little resources, and they have to find ways to do with the little they have and ingenuity. Capital starts coming in only after you are successful - Mark Zuckerberg had a successful and popular product before he got Peter Thiel to invest, all built by himself. It wasn't perfect, but good enough.
There are others like Bill Bartmann, for example, who started his debt collection business with 0 cash and 1 million in personal debt to the bank after his previous oil business failed. Lack of resources isn't necessarily impossible to overcome through ingenuity. In fact, a tragedy like that, having $1 million in personal debt, will FORCE you to be ingenious. He realised that there was no way to repay 1 million by working a job anyway - so he started to think practically, how can I get $1 million to pay my debt?
It's not a matter of learning, it's a matter of sponsoring
:s >:O >:O >:O - yeah yeah, you forgot to pay the Three Stooges to give you access :-} - what a silly guy, doesn't even know how to work out BBCodes and thinks it's because he's not allowed access. It's the socialist state mate, they are controlling your access, that Labour Partay you keep voting for. They want your dough.
Reply to Agustino I only seek to destroy those who present themselves as rationally sexist. That guy is a clear nutter. Hence why I want to save Michael' girlfriend from the loathsome grips of that bobolyne.
Have you read The Tunning of Elynour Rummyng? Skelton's poem tells the story of Eleanor's small time ale house. Wikipedia characterizes the poem as "a long raucous poem ... and presents what many would consider disgusting images of rural drinking and drunkenness", as opposed to dignified and never disgusting urban drinking and drunkenness,
Several stanzas are devoted to describing Elynour herself:
Her lothely lere
Is nothynge clere,
But ugly of chere,
Droupy and drowsy,
Scurvy and lowsy;
Her face all bowsy,
Comely crynkled,
Woundersly wrynkled,
Lyke a rost pygges eare,
Brystled wyth here.
...
It seems to me I read a longer version which included a verse about the chickens that roosted over the ale barrel.
Which rules out self-employed jobs. I guess you don't have a job, then.
Let's apply a little logic:
If you're self-employed, then haven't you employed yourself? And wouldn't that mean that you're your own employer? Thus, you do have an employer. Thus, if you're self-employed, then you have a job.
Being more knowledgeable about your line of work than your boss kinda sucks.
Yes, it does. I have two of them at the same level on the hierarchy. [I]I'm[/I] having to train [i]them[/I]. And they were both permitted to go on holiday at the same time - at [i]the[/I] most important period - leaving me to do [I]their[/I] job, with all of the stress and responsibilities that it involves.
Yes, it does. I have two of them at the same level on the hierarchy. I'm having to train them. And they were both permitted to go on holiday at the same time - at the most important period - leaving me to do their job, with all of the stress and responsibilities that it involves.
Exactly, I think that's unfair but it's unavoidable because the "boss" isn't really a boss - he also has worker mentality - do as little as possible, and get paid as much as possible. All workers seek to do as little as possible and get paid as much as possible - since for a worker and an employee this is possible. But if you are an entrepreneur then this is impossible, for you only earn if the work is there, if it's not... impossible to earn. An entrepreneur is in this sense much more of a materialist than a worker, who is an idealist.
All workers seek to do as little as possible and get paid as much as possible
Only shitty people. Decent human beings understand that if we all attempted to take out more than we put in, everything would become pretty shitty pretty quickly. If we all put it more than we take out, everything is great for everyone. Most are doughheads that can't figure that one though.
Only shitty people. Decent human beings understand that if we all attempted to take out more than we put in, everything would become pretty shitty pretty quickly. If we all put it more than we take out, everything is great for everyone. Most are doughheads that can't figure that one though.
I agree but I don't think it's just about being a shitty person. It's also that the material reality is such that the worker's earnings are not tied to any real metric that tracks value added. So the worker is permanently tempted by his material reality to add as little value as possible.
If I'm a worker, I generally have a fixed monthly wage. My wage thus does not reflect material reality - if I'm super-productive and if I'm lazy, I get the same pay - thus why be productive? I will be productive a few times, see my boss doing nothing and earning more than me, and then I'll be like why work so hard?!
As self-employed on the other hand - or as an entrepreneur - if I don't work, if I don't add any value, then I get paid absolutely zero. My "wage" can literarily fluctuate between 0 and as much value as I add every month - so the material reality continually pressures me to be honest about my performance.
Reply to Wosret Ha! You'd have to be a doughhead to put in [i]more[/I] then what you take out, unless your job role warrants it. If you're a nurse, then yes, very noble. But if you work in retail, then no, are you some kind of schmuck?
Ha! You'd have to be a doughhead to put in more then what you take out, unless your job role warrants it.
Yes you see, but this is precisely the problem with worker mentality. Your material reality does not reward you for working harder - so you have no incentive to do it.
I always have a philosophy to charge 10% of how much my client earns from what I do. If I do a PPC campaign and bring him business of $10K, then I'll take $1K.
There is a lot more to be gained than just money, but even only based on that metric, unless your job has exactly zero movement potential, then that is not true. Working harder gets noticed, gets bigger raises from evaluations, particularly in construction or labor, they generally pay by the work, but even in normal retail jobs, upward momentum isn't all about rubbing elbows.
Working harder gets noticed, gets bigger raises from evaluations, particularly in construction or labor, they generally pay by the work, but even in normal retail jobs, upward momentum isn't all about rubbing elbows.
That's true, but my point still holds - there is a radical disconnect between wage and value added - the two aren't proportional. Wage grows significantly slower than value added. So yes, if you're a super hard worker, and know how to negotiate (because otherwise you won't get any raise), then you will get raises and the like. But they will not be anywhere near the additional value that you actually provide to the business.
You'll also be healthier, that work ethic will permeate all facets of your life and inspire those around you, reveal insight into the processes and values of a more impressive class of people, reduce stress, increase serotonin, inspire respect, and reduce feelings of resentment and victimization.
You'll also be healthier, that work ethic will permeate all facets of your life and inspire though around you, reveal insight into the processes and values of a more impressive class of people, reduce stress, increase serotonin, inspire respect, and reduce feelings of resentment and victimization.
Sure, if you have that mindset, but most people don't.
If I'm a worker, I generally have a fixed monthly wage. My wage thus does not reflect material reality - if I'm super-productive and if I'm lazy, I get the same pay - thus why be productive? I will be productive a few times, see my boss doing nothing and earning more than me, and then I'll be like why work so hard?!
That is the attitude of some employees, but not all. Hopefully a manager will be able to motivate you, but if not, fire you, because you're not only unproductive, but a poison. That's just to say I've seen plenty of workers as you describe, and they get nowhere, stuck at their low level, disgruntled, and oh so sure they've got it all figured out and are smarter than everyone else.
If I'm a worker, I generally have a fixed monthly wage. My wage thus does not reflect material reality - if I'm super-productive and if I'm lazy, I get the same pay - thus why be productive? I will be productive a few times, see my boss doing nothing and earning more than me, and then I'll be like why work so hard?!
[quote=Ephesians 6:7–8][sup]7[/sup] Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, [sup]8[/sup] because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.[/quote]
Reply to Agustino So the issue is "describing payments for opposition research as 'legal services' is entirely misleading and subverts the reporting requirements."? That's fair enough.
That is the attitude of some employees, but not all. Hopefully a manager will be able to motivate you, but if not, fire you, because you're not only unproductive, but a poison. That's just to say I've seen plenty of workers as you describe, and they get nowhere, stuck at their low level, disgruntled, and oh so sure they've got it all figured out and are smarter than everyone else.
I agree with you to a certain extent, however, I question the idea that the managers are any better - they too are more often than not of the same cloth. Just cause they have a higher position in the social hierarchy and get paid more doesn't by itself make them any better.
The thing is many people don't realise that their material conditions cannot change unless they take real material action - learn a skill more in-depth, learn new skills, start a business, etc.
Reply to Agustino Just got off the line with her. She mainly complained about having a failure of a son who still hasn't left home and spends all his time being a cocky twat on the philosophy forum whilst maintaining he has a 'business' and is trying to 'expand' said 'business'
If you're self-employed, then haven't you employed yourself? And wouldn't that mean that you're your own employer? Thus, you do have an employer. Thus, if you're self-employed, then you have a job.
Not necessarily. If an employer is always someone other than oneself, then by being self-employed, you don't have an employer. Or your employer would be all the people who buy your product, in a certain sense.
This morning I happened across this video. The girl is basically claiming that the progressive left is failing because it's "against human nature," and this failure has consequently lead to nihilism and the rise of the Alt-right. As she refers to Nietzsche and his conception of nihilism as an event, I suppose she means 'against nature' in a will-to-power sort of way, but she doesn't really go into reasons for why she believes progressive values are unnatural.
As a general rule, I'd think that centrist or moderate political views and values would be the closest to what might be considered 'natural', and extreme left or right the most 'unnatural'.
I find it a little disturbing that people can have such rigid views about human nature.
Hmmm, her views were quite reasonable actually, I agreed with her on most questions except a few, which is why I guess I'm more left than her, but about the same in terms of authoritarian/libertarian (she's actually slightly more libertarian than I am).
Well yeah, I think she's right about some of those issues.
Generally speaking, to progress may be an effort to surpass a base nature, so it could be construed as being against human nature, I suppose. But to claim such an effort is doomed to failure is to say that humans cannot progress. We know from history that is not the case, so she's wrong on a fundamental level.
On an incidental level, she seemed to claim that the 50s represented a more natural value system. This was a time when women were home makers, it was prior to the civil rights act, etc etc... a time when America was Great. But if it was so great and naturally meaningful then why has it largely failed?
Can you offer any explanation as to why progressivism may be inherently meaningless?
Of course my feeling about the issue it irrelevant to the truth of whether or not there’s an essential and immutable human nature. All actual evidence suggests otherwise, however.
That sucks. For my part, I'm in the wine retail business, and NYC is essentially the wine capital of the world in terms of imports. I've been in the business for a few years. But my boss, who does all of the buying, is doing this for the first time. But she has this vibe of pretending she knows shit, when she doesn't. For instance, when she says things like "Bordeaux and Burgundy are next to each other, right?" And I have to tell her...no...they're not...and her buying habits for the store are extremely unruly and bad business in general; she's just following what she thinks the trends are, without giving thought to how to populate the store with an appropriate variety of options. And on top of all of that, she has this vibe of trying to appear intelligent and full of wine knowledge, when in reality, I spend more time researching and tasting wines than her. But I also don't give a fuck, ultimately. And maybe that's the final irony: I'm lazy and could care less, yet I still know more than her.
But I also don't give a fuck, ultimately. And maybe that's the final irony: I'm lazy and could care less, yet I still know more than her.
Well, you should care, maybe you go into selling wine yourself. If you had money you'd have a much easier time making it in the music world. I have a friend who has been struggling for many years to get into the film industry, he's in the US at the moment actually. He's recently been thinking to do something trying to make a lot of money first as well - then he'd have an easier time getting the money he needs to make the films he wants, without depending on others. Those art industries seem to be literarily impossible to get into in the common ways in today's world. Too competitive.
But I also don't give a fuck, ultimately. And maybe that's the final irony: I'm lazy and could care less, yet I still know more than her.
What I read here is that you are very interested in wine, you've tasted and studied them, and are frustrated that your superior has knowledge, interests, and talents inferior to you. In response to this injustice, instead of attempting to rise to the challenge, you offer the unconvincing rationalization that the situation is ultimately acceptable because you really don't care. This stoicism you guys fall back on is a defense mechanism, not some honorable trait.
The irony isn't your boss is clueless, and it's certainly not you don't care. The irony is that you're clueless as to how to rectify the problem, so you roll your eyes and pretend not to care. Your boss is superior to you in having figured out how to be noticed.
There are all sorts of ways to rise up in your industry, and they all relate to developing contacts, communicating clearly, identifying opportunities, avoiding dead ends, being optimistic, and using interpersonal skills. Whatever it might take, I can assure you that resentment is not it. This goes for Sapientia as well, probably more.
I know this post has the typical Hanover "shut up and get to work" theme, but it's more sympathetic than you might think. I've just seen so much self imposed limitation by those most passionate, which truly is a failure of management in motivating. Don't let their failure to foster your passion derail you. You're just better than that and have the power to produce quality despite their ineptitude. Quality is always ultimately rewarded, regardless of the business model. That's not Hanoverian optimism. That's Darwinism.
My point is that your post had the stench of quit. If you're going to strike out, go down swinging.
Your boss is superior to you in having figured out how to be noticed.
Being noticed is irrelevant. What's relevant is gaining control over the real mechanisms of power in that industry. Which in this case involves being able to source the wine and selling it yourself, not working for someone else. Working for someone else is always being at their mercy, makes little difference whether you're CEO or just a random clerk. You can still get fired.
There are all sorts of ways to rise up in your industry, and they all relate to developing contacts, communicating clearly, identifying opportunities, avoiding dead ends, being optimistic, and using interpersonal skills. Whatever it might take, I can assure you that resentment is not it. This goes for Sapientia as well, probably more.
Well, I'm not sure what to say to them. It must be very difficult in the US or UK to start from nothing and grow. In developing countries, this is easier, which is in part why I decided to leave the UK. It is true that it is very competitive in those countries, not sure if I would manage there. So in a certain sense, this resentment and nihilism are unavoidable in the developed West.
Forgive me for this assumption, but I assume you were born and raised up in the post-war boom. That was a period marked by economic optimism, when the West grew massively, and there were a lot of opportunities. This doesn't seem to be the case anymore in Western countries. Opportunities are fewer, and competition is greater than ever. So the fact that we see greater pessimism is just the result of that. These material conditions determine it. If we went through another massive world war, I'm sure those who survive would find great optimism, booming economies, opportunities everywhere, and so on so forth. But population has been growing very fast, it's harder to make it. Even in your job, as a lawyer, it's much harder to become a big-time lawyer today than 50 years ago. Roy Cohn, Trump's lawyer, was working for Senator McCarthy and he was just 23 years old! At 23 today, a lawyer is just a small, useless pawn.
A few years ago I met a big-time lawyer in Macedonia. And I was talking to him, and I asked him, what did you do after you finished law school? And he told me simply, I found a place to rent, and made my own law firm. And I asked him, directly, just like that, with no experience? And he said, totally unsurprised, yes. As if it was nothing. So that's possible in those places (especially 50 years ago, but even today it is, but less so). But try doing the same in the US :s .
What's relevant is gaining control over the real mechanisms of power in that industry.
Nonsense. That might might be the endgame, but there are hundreds off steps between.Quoting Agustino
Forgive me for this assumption, but I assume you were born and raised up in the post-war boom.
If the war you're referring to is Vietnam. I was born in 1966. The job market sucked when I graduated.Quoting Agustino
A few years ago I met a big-time lawyer in Macedonia. And I was talking to him, and I asked him, what did you do after you finished law school? And he told me simply, I found a place to rent, and made my own law firm.
That happens all the time in the US. The legal market is cyclical like all markets, and it's currently very strong.
If the war you're referring to is Vietnam. I was born in 1966. The job market sucked when I graduated.
No, I'm obviously referring to World War II. The job market may have sucked - relatively. But the post-war boom is undeniable and is marked by the computer and internet revolution in the developed world, which allowed a lot of new wealth to be created. You would obviously have finished law school by the 1990s, right when the USA was about to notice one of the biggest booms in its economy, from 1990-2000, until the internet bubble burst. So you did go through a relatively very good economic period.
That happens all the time in the US. The legal market is cyclical like all markets, and it's currently very strong.
Ok, I obviously don't know the US that much, so I'll take your word about that. But was it easier to open your own law firm 100 years ago than today if you were educated as a lawyer? The answer is very easy and very simple - 100 years ago it was easier, as there was less competition, especially if you were well-educated. Was it easier to rise to the top 100 years ago? You bet.
Reply to Hanover And ultimately, this is the contradiction at the heart of free markets. A free market, perfectly competitive one, eliminates profits and literarily makes everyone the same. Everyone is working more and more, for less and less.
It's hard to have a monopoly today - either because there are other monopolies out there (think Google for search engines), or because it's simply too darn competitive. To do it you either need political support, which means corruption effectively, or be a mobster, or somehow or other corner the market in a way no one else can. For example, since Google is banned in China, there's room for another search engine to replace it there. Obviously with the help of the state.
I work hard, but I'm an epic hero, so I don't handle passive aggression, or bullshit well, I'm kind of a prick, I handle it with overt aggression.
Back in the day they knew how to handle being overt, and genuine, if people boasted or disrespected you, and couldn't back it up, then it was time for a beat down, or if they could, everyone would hold you both back from killing each other, even the gods would intervene to praise you both as super awesome and valuable, and tell you that you both speak the truth, accept that you're a match for one and other, it doesn't have to go too far.
These days passive aggression, plausible deniability, and ridiculous delusion reign supreme.
They knew how to reward a guy back in the day too, with something like:
"Which in his tent he pledg'd him to bestow.
Sev'n tripods promis'd he, untouch'd by fire,
Of gold, ten talents, twenty caldrons bright,
Twelve pow'rful horses, in the course renown'd.
Who by their speed have many prizes won.
Not empty-handed could that man be deem'd,
Nor poor in gold, who but so much possess'd
As by those horses has for him been won.
Sev'n women too, well skill'd in household cares,
Lesbians, whom he selected for himself,
That day thou captur'dst Lesbos' goodly isle,
In beauty far surpassing all their sex."
But of course, like a good hero, you'll vow to be their savior on compassion alone, and demand not even one super hot lesbian.
A free market, perfectly competitive one, eliminates profits and literarily makes everyone the same. Everyone is working more and more, for less and less.
This conclusion can only be reached if you believe that there are limits to human creativity and ingenuity. You speak of the impenetrability of Google as if it's an entrenched ancient immovable institution. When I was a kid, I might have wondered how anyone could have competed against Encyclopedia Britannica in the marketplace for knowledge.
There's not a company out there that isn't worried that their mousetrap isn't about to become obsolete.
That's a quote from the Iliad, and the offer is made to Achilles. I think that probably the most bad ass part though, is when Zues tells all of the other gods to stop intervening in the war, and not to forget just how OP he is, if they wished to test it, he'd hang down a golden chain from Olympus, and they could have a tug-o-war, but would be unable to move him, whereas when he decides to give it a yank, he'll haul them all up with such force that it will take all the oceans with them.
When I lived on Mt. Olympus, I had a golden trident that I'd use to pleasure the elusive three holed virgins that would sit at my feet and eat grapes and pet naked cherubs. I've lived a bit of a fucked up life, but having the responsibility of having to feed and clean up after my cat has kept me grounded. Which reminds me, did you leave my keys on the refrigerator?
Poseidon has the Trident... you know, the little mermaid's dad. Zues has thunder blots, fashioned by Hephaestus. Athena has been known to boast having access to them though.
Identifying with the voices in your head is the sane thing to do.
Reply to Wosret I do find your wealth of information about the ancient gods helpful. Which god had the magical shillelagh that used to beat the Irish out of Baden?
"Oh, the English sword in the stone, based on the Irish sword in the tree. I have the original" - Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh is in possession of all epic weapons.
I was the Norse god of sexiness until last week. Now I'm just an administrator. They didn't explain the demotion, but it really sucks. I'm thinking of quitting, maybe becoming a bank teller or a person who hands the surgeon the scalpel when he says "scalpel."
This conclusion can only be reached if you believe that there are limits to human creativity and ingenuity.
Well yeah, I agree with you with regards to human creativity and ingenuity, it's a good point actually and one of the main reasons why I'm not a communist (and why I'm a distributist). However, it doesn't contradict what I said. Google will most likely remain supreme in search engines - but someone may invent something other than a search engine which allows people to find information faster and more easily, which would make the search engine market/industry obsolete. Google didn't compete with Encyclopedia Britannica directly, they just eliminated the need for that market (along with the whole development of the internet).
But I hope you do realise what this implies. Creativity and ingenuity are very hard - they take a lot of sacrifices and they're not what most people will be willing to engage in. That's the problem with something like distributism which would encourage everyone to be an entrepreneur of some kind, or to have a society dominated by smaller entrepreneurial groups. Such a system cannot work with the profit drive of capitalism, since it makes it cut-throat and requires too much sacrifice from most people - so they don't even want to be entrepreneurs. For them, it takes the fun out, since they don't have the ambition.
So sure, those who are creative and ingenious will be ok in it, but let's face it, most people are lazy and don't want to work too much. Why do you think there are so many young people who are socialist, marxists, etc.? These people want to party most of them, have fun, relax, etc. They don't want to break their brains starting a business, being creative, inventing something new, learning etc. They lack the ambition on the one hand, and the discipline and values on the other to pursue such a thing in a competitive environment. They don't want to make the sacrifices required. Why do you think I told you before that to gain the world, one must first renounce it?
So you cannot structure society just so that the "creative, ingenious and ambitious" profit. For example, I was very ambitious even in school, so I always did well, but I remember the vast majority of people being dissatisfied with the school system - they weren't winners, they were losers in it. Someone like me may be able to work 12 hours a day every day including Saturdays, and spend their time not only making money, but gaining new skills too. But not everyone will. Most people want more social contact (not only business, or at the gym, or on a forum every now and then), they want breaks, etc.
So unless something is done, those people aren't going to tolerate this system, and will break it, even if it will take all of us down with it. So that's what I think you don't realise regarding the disgruntled workers. I don't like most of the complainers either, but it is what it is, we have to take them into account too. I wish they'd all become entrepreneurs or hard workers, etc. just like I wish all sinners would become holy and God-fearing, but it's not going to happen.
But to claim such an effort is doomed to failure is to say that humans cannot progress.
Yes, on average, there is no moral progress. Technological progress doesn't mean moral progress. The scientistic types seem to confuse the two of them. Quite the contrary, we're more violent and dangerous than ever precisely because we have grown our power with technology, but have not improved our souls.
But if it was so great and naturally meaningful then why has it largely failed?
What is great and naturally meaningful doesn't necessarily last. There is no inherent link between the two. Just the fact that a system falls apart doesn't mean that it's bad. Simply the historical conditions force it into self-destruction for one reason or another.
Can you offer any explanation as to why progressivism may be inherently meaningless?
Because, for example, equality, is a levelling of everyone to the same level. One of the biggest problems today is that we're all equal. We're all encouraged to think of each other as equal, if you think of yourself as a genius, even if you happen to be one, then you'll be reprimanded - how dare you? And this is happening in our schools. So equality just is the disappearance of values - values are precisely these differences, the lower and the higher.
Well, you should care, maybe you go into selling wine yourself. If you had money you'd have a much easier time making it in the music world. I have a friend who has been struggling for many years to get into the film industry, he's in the US at the moment actually. He's recently been thinking to do something trying to make a lot of money first as well - then he'd have an easier time getting the money he needs to make the films he wants, without depending on others. Those art industries seem to be literarily impossible to get into in the common ways in today's world. Too competitive
As you're aware, my career goal is to be a musical artist, not a wine importer. Wine is a hobby for me, so it's nice to get paid for a hobby, rather than work a job I have 0 interest in. I've considered trying to just make as much money as possible so as to then devote time and money to music, but in practice I don't think it's realistic. More money means more responsibility to do a job that I'm ultimately not that passionate about, and more responsibility means more time spent working after hours, and suddenly there's no time for music, which means i become more and more rusty at all of the different aspects of what i do as an artist.
I've considered trying to just make as much money as possible so as to then devote time and money to music, but in practice I don't think it's realistic. More money means more responsibility to do a job that I'm ultimately not that passionate about, and more responsibility means more time spent working after hours, and suddenly there's no time for music, which means i become more and more rusty at all of the different aspects of what i do as an artist.
Yeah, that is true, you would probably be looking at sacrificing at least 10-15 years if you were to try it, and there is no guarantee of success. But then the other path is also really risky - there's no guarantee that you'll make it as an artist by the more traditional ways either. From what I've talked with my other friend and with you, getting into those art related fields is extremely difficult by traditional routes, more difficult actually than making it in business. Incidentally, I think I may have discussed this with John too a long time ago, can't remember.
What I read here is that you are very interested in wine, you've tasted and studied them, and are frustrated that your superior has knowledge, interests, and talents inferior to you. In response to this injustice, instead of attempting to rise to the challenge, you offer the unconvincing rationalization that the situation is ultimately acceptable because you really don't care. This stoicism you guys fall back on is a defense mechanism, not some honorable trait.
The irony isn't your boss is clueless, and it's certainly not you don't care. The irony is that you're clueless as to how to rectify the problem, so you roll your eyes and pretend not to care. Your boss is superior to you in having figured out how to be noticed.
There are all sorts of ways to rise up in your industry, and they all relate to developing contacts, communicating clearly, identifying opportunities, avoiding dead ends, being optimistic, and using interpersonal skills. Whatever it might take, I can assure you that resentment is not it. This goes for Sapientia as well, probably more.
I know this post has the typical Hanover "shut up and get to work" theme, but it's more sympathetic than you might think
, which truly is a failure of management in motivating. Don't let their failure to foster your passion derail you. You're just better than that and have the power to produce quality despite their ineptitude. Quality is always ultimately rewarded, regardless of the business model. That's not Hanoverian optimism. That's Darwinism.
My point is that your post had the stench of quit. If you're going to strike out, go down swinging.
(Sorry to quote your whole post, I'm on my phone and don't want to scroll back up and down. That laziness :P )
As Agustino mentioned, my career goal is to be a musical artist; I'm interested in wine as a hobby, so it's nice to work a job that's a personal hobby rather than something I'm not interested in. That's what i mean when i say i don't care. And I'm not philosophically a stoic, btw.
I agree with Agustino, being noticed only has value in itself; yes, my boss has been noticed because of her interpersonal skills more than anything, which is great if you're an equal with her, but it turns out when she's your boss, all she does is critize the smallest mistakes you make at your job. Anyway, the point being that being noticed has no correlation to quality of work; "fake it till you make it". I could care less about that fake bullshit; I care about quality work.
into those art related fields is extremely difficult by traditional routes, more difficult actually than making it in business.
Yes.
The only other alternative I've considered is moving somewhere cheaper and more rural so i have more time and energy to make the music i need to make, and stop trying to make it a career. There's an insane amount of mental pressure built up from trying to do this. It's an attractive idea, but i know it would also lead to a different type of depression than what i have currently.
I agree with Agustino, being noticed only has value in itself; yes, my boss has been noticed because of her interpersonal skills more than anything, which is great if you're an equal with her, but it turns out when she's your boss, all she does is critize the smallest mistakes you make at your job.
Kiss the behind of those higher than you, step on those lower than you. I've seen this as well, I hate that type of person. They are also usually the least loyal people and the most traitorous. One of the reasons why I prefer working independently.
The only other alternative I've considered is moving somewhere cheaper and more rural so i have more time and energy to make the music i need to make, and stop trying to make it a career. There's an insane amount of mental pressure built up from trying to do this. It's an attractive idea, but i know it would also lead to a different type of depression than what i have currently.
Well, the only real way to solve your depression is to find a way to make it as a musician. I think the two of them are related. Part of the problem is of course that you're just born at a time in history when it's so crowded - everyone wants to do it.
So one way to make it is to get some experience, even small experience in US, and then move to a different country with a less developed musical scene. Being from the US will be a great asset there, so it will be much easier to be appreciated. It would also help if you found a way to get a non-music related form of income that you could acquire regardless of where you were geographically - that way you could travel to different places relatively easily.
Well, the only real way to solve your depression is to find a way to make it as a musician
I don't think that's totally true; true, doing what i love full time would improve my mental health, but there are other causes of depression in my life.
one way to make it is to get some experience, even small experience in US, and then move to a different country with a less developed musical scene. Being from the US will be a great asset there, so it will be much easier to be appreciated. It would also help if you found a way to get a non-music related form of income that you could acquire regardless of where you were geographically - that way you could travel to different places relatively easily.
Yeah, thatsthat's true. I love traveling, and I've never been to Europe. That's definitely an option; Europeans do seem to love American music for whatever reason. But again, the main issue is income.
Yes, on average, there is no moral progress. Technological progress doesn't mean moral progress. The scientistic types seem to confuse the two of them.
Progressivism is concerned with social reform, in accordance with the Enlightenment idea of progress, and not specifically with morals or technology. For instance, if there were some method to improve the conditions of an underclass, the technology used in this method, or average morality of those affected, wouldn’t matter. Improved conditions, like less crime, betters schools, etc., would facilitate moral and technical development.
Besides this, on an individual level we know that progress is possible and can be meaningful. I know that I’m more morally developed now than I was when younger. I try to work on becoming a better person each day, though life can often get in the way, and it’s meaningful.
Quite the contrary, we're more violent and dangerous than ever precisely because we have grown our power with technology, but have not improved our souls.
Just the fact that a system falls apart doesn't mean that it's bad.
Her claim is that progressivism is doomed to fail because it’s counter to human nature (will-to-power), and indeed according to Nietzschian thought all systems are doomed to failure and eternal recurrence. There are other views on human nature, such as that of Viktor Frankl (will-to-meaning), in which progressivism can be seen as meaningful or non-nihilistic, wherein natural cycles of development>corruption>reform nevertheless result in progress over the long run. Reformation is natural and progressive.
equality just is the disappearance of values - values are precisely these differences, the lower and the higher.
Egalitarian values uphold the fundamental worth of others and their political, economic, and social opportunities in society. There is value in diversity, and indeed diversity is more natural and healthy compared to a monoculture, which is prone to stagnation and degradation due to its inherent weakness.
Progressivism is concerned with social reform, in accordance with the Enlightenment idea of progress, and not specifically with morals or technology. For instance, if there were some method to improve the conditions of an underclass, the technology used in this method, or average morality of those affected, wouldn’t matter. Improved conditions, like less crime, betters schools, etc., would facilitate moral and technical development.
Besides this, on an individual level we know that progress is possible and can be meaningful. I know that I’m more morally developed now than I was when younger. I try to work on becoming a better person each day, though life can often get in the way, and it’s meaningful.
You're just looking at extremely short historical intervals, and only at one geographical location. If you were to look at Iraq for example, it would be a different picture. And just because lynching has gradually reduced from 1940s-present in the US isn't a big indication of a change in morality - it's just the end of one activity. The same immorality may very well be flowing down different channels today.
Interesting. I've long admired this poem by Skelton: http://www.poetrynook.com/poem/manner-world-nowadays
Really? I doubt such admiration is deserv'd. Now, Shakespeare used that word and indeed this certainly reminds us why he was just (L)
[i]No, Time, thou shalt not boast that I do change:
Thy pyramids built up with newer might
To me are nothing novel, nothing strange;
They are but dressings of a former sight.
Our dates are brief, and therefore we admire
What thou dost foist upon us that is old;
And rather make them born to our desire
Than think that we before have heard them told.
Thy registers and thee I both defy,
Not wondering at the present nor the past,
For thy records and what we see doth lie,
Made more or less by thy continual haste.
This I do vow and this shall ever be;
I will be true despite thy scythe and thee.[/i]
Announcement: Please do not post discussions in the philosophical categories unless you are sure your post is philosophical. And please do not reply to OPs that do or your post is likely to get deleted along with the OP. Thanks.
You should elaborate on that, so's as I know which are which. I just did a google search for descriptions and definitions of philosophy, and look what wiki says "Is there a best way to live? Is it better to be just or unjust (if one can get away with it)?", like in the first paragraph, the dilemma now is, should I be proud that my last topic was so explicitly philosophical, or disappointed that it was so explicitly philosophical?
Unless we're raising the exact questions again and again as explicitly demarcated in dictionaries, encyclopedias, or academia, how can we be sure, and when we're sure, isn't it boring? Is "what is philosophical?" a philosophical question?
No bar stool philosophizing. That can go in the lounge. The Deja Vu discussion is an example. The philosophy categories are for conversations that lean academic. I know that's not that specific but here's an example of something not very academic but acceptable:
Like most things, it's about embodiment and reiteration, continually attempting to inspire the embodiment and reiteration of the philosophical spirit in each successive generation, ergo, I am philosophy.
Hey, at least I know more about it than "most people", or see it different than how it is "commonly understood". I both like to set the bar real fucking low, and the methodologies of science, and mathematical averaging of large sets of cases leaves the bar firmly sitting in the mediocre, with no real sense or measure for the exceptional that science could possibly demonstrate by design.
Sorry, I just selfishly think it would be boring if there was too much enforcing of a canon. The canon isn't always best either. I just always feel the need to rebel, it's like my thing.
Reply to Baden Hey, the Déjà vu discussion was at least somewhat philosophical. And it provided Wosret with an opportunity to make a subtle joke: "I think I've seen this topic before..."
He also said "I don't risk sounding crazy, I strive for it" which is surely profoundly philosophical.
I didn't even read the op, I just thought that "deja vu" isn't considered significant, or is considered profound to idiots, but evolution is super significant, and a big deal to smart people, even though neither are really taught about in academic philosophical settings, though surely one could get away with an essay or dissertation on either, as long as one could bring them back to the philosophical topics of consideration in academic classrooms.
And with my help at least, we did arrive at the implications for knowledge.
“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” Ralph Waldo Emerson
But being misunderstood, does not make one great. Otherwise I would be really GREAT.
Hey, this is just my day job. At night I'm a vampire stalking the streets sucking the philosophicalness out of everything I can find and feeding it to my batlet brood. Oh, wait, it is night now. Hmm.
And just because lynching has gradually reduced from 1940s-present in the US isn't a big indication of a change in morality
Do you realize how aweful this sounds. If it wasn’t a significant change in morality then the crime couldn’t have been a significant moral transgression.
I tried to take close pictures, but holy fuck I'm ugly... every time I want a cigarette I just have to remember how fucking ugly they're making me. The constant cravings though...
Do you realize how aweful this sounds. If it wasn’t a significant change in morality then the crime couldn’t have been a significant moral transgression.
:s - what does the crime being a significant moral transgression have to do with whether it's practiced or not?
I don’t think the point is to get it right but only to try adding some semblance of credibility to her position.
She's actually quite a good speaker, and she makes many good points. I don't see why you find it lacking credibility :s - maybe if you could tell us? She actually seems like quite a sensible person from the videos regarding the views she has. She's not a neo-nazi or anything extreme right wing. Even on her political compass, she was very centre. And her YouTube channel seems to have done really well in just a couple of months.
Like most things, it's about embodiment and reiteration, continually attempting to inspire the embodiment and reiteration of the philosophical spirit in each successive generation, ergo, I am philosophy.
Sounds like you've embodied the spirit of gobbledygook.
And just because lynching has gradually reduced from 1940s-present in the US isn't a big indication of a change in morality - it's just the end of one activity. The same immorality may very well be flowing down different channels today.
Is morality not manifested in acts? If morality (a system) is not related to behavior, what significance can it have?
The reality of no blacks being subjected to mob violence (where they once were) must be considered a change in morality. The same principle applies to gay people. If gay people are beaten up (because they are gay) far less often today than they were 50 years ago, that is the result of a change in morality. Unless, of course, you want to sever any relationship between morality and behavior--in which case, you can grasp nothing about someone's moral principles by observing their behavior.
The relationship between behavior and moral principles isn't one of strict equivalence, where individuals never act in ways they consider immoral. One may hold theft as an immoral act, and steal something. Most murders-in-the-heat-of-the-moment are in all likelihood committed by people who think murder is wrong. One has to look at the larger picture. Almost all of the time people follow the guidance of their moral system.
"Immorality may very well be flowing down different channels" might be true. But you would need to show how the morality which justifies lynching "flows down different channels" and results in job discrimination, for instance. It doesn't seem altogether plausible that one could show that.
The attitudes motivating job discrimination might be very similar to the attitudes justifying lynching, but attitudes are not morality. The attitude (set of values about the worth of black people) toward black people caused lynching as well as discrimination in housing, employment, education, and health care.
Are you equating morality with attitudes? (Some people certainly equate them. Disliking groups of people -- blacks, gays, immigrants, intellectuals, white people, etc -- is equivalent to a crime in many people's view.
Reply to Bitter Crank If there are laws, and they are enforced in order to stop a certain act, that doesn't mean people suddenly became moral because less commit that said act. Just that they cease acting immorally due to fear of punishment. In their hearts, they may still be immoral.
She's not a neo-nazi or anything extreme right wing. Even on her political compass, she was very centre.
I know, that video was hilarious at the end where she sees the results. Check out the micro-expression.
She describes herself as "far right."
It might be an interesting study to see if taking a self-assessment test like this publicly tends to make folks choose the more politically correct answers, pushing everyone towards the center.
Hunger strikes are pretty childish, like playing chicken. If I were a truly malevolent or inhuman oppressive force, then what shits do I give if you starve yourself to death? If however I'm compassionate and concerned for your well being then you're forcing me to comply by using your person as a hostage.
If there are laws, and they are enforced in order to stop a certain act, that doesn't mean people suddenly became moral because less commit that said act. Just that they cease acting immorally due to fear of punishment. In their hearts, they may still be immoral.
If they obeyed the law against taking justice into their own hands, then they were behaving in a more moral manner. We really can't talk about what is in their "hearts" because we don't have ready access to whatever is in there. God didn't give the Israelites the Ten Commandments because their behavior was superbly moral. God gave them the Big Ten to help them become more moral. (Whether it worked or not is up for debate.)
When people stop behaving in a certain way, their thinking (their "hearts") will shift (in time) to match what they do. You are so right -- that idea doesn't account for everything. Some people change their thinking (their "hearts") first, and then their behavior follows suit, in time.
Do we really care how people become more moral, if more moral they become?
If there are laws, and they are enforced in order to stop a certain act, that doesn't mean people suddenly became moral because less commit that said act. Just that they cease acting immorally due to fear of punishment. In their hearts, they may still be immoral.
As far as I’m aware there’s been only one major change in laws surrounding lynching, since emancipation I guess, which was the designation of hate crime included in the civil right act of 1968. Incidents of reported lynching was reduced to zero by that time, however.
No, I am not a fan of his poetry, but I am a fan of Skelton. That is, I don't know how to appreciate his work. Is it a historical appreciation? Maybe. I myself recently attempted a pantoum that was well received, but what can you call his; a number of tercets and pantoum? I respect him though as a historical figure and a representative of the tudor period.
Reply to Wosret You fell into @Hanover' trap. If he wants something - in this case less feet and more face - rather than directly ask, he is indirectly attempting to influence others to follow his example and ultimately get what he wants. It is a game of chance.
No, I don't remember her describing herself as far right, and by all extents and purposes she is not far right. She's slightly nationalist, anti-corporatist, etc. Very similar to me politically, but a bit more right-wing. It is possible that she gets the feeling that she's far more right-wing than she is, just because of the pathetic culture we live in.
When I took it, I actually was far right, but closer to libertarian, I just didn't post it because I didn't wanna cause any strokes.
Well, Wosy, that might not impress us, but it may impress her. So why not get in touch with her? You're from Canada, she's from US, you are close geographically and share similar political position. You mentioned wanting to start your own YouTube channel too. Not to mention that Jordan Peterson is adamant about getting the girl, so what are you waiting for? 8-)
Reply to TimeLine Whatever you do, don't provide a face close up. Reverse psychology can't work on you.
I am so in your head right now, it's about to explode. You have no idea what to do except not provide a face close up, or will you? Should you now give another foot pic, or try to be clever with an ear? Maybe give a navel pic. No, you're too smart for that pervy suggestion, but it's be so edgy if you did., so maybe you will.
Reply to Wosret Send a navel pic, that way it will normalize otherwise unacceptable behavior and TL will follow suit, and I'll finally be able to finish my internet poster navel collage hanging over my bed.
I am so in your head right now, it's about to explode. You have no idea what to do except not provide a face close up, or will you? Should you now give another foot pic, or try to be clever with an ear? Maybe give a navel pic. No, you're too smart for that pervy suggestion, but it's be so edgy if you did., so maybe you will.
Listen, you incestuous porpoise, it is clear that I am in your head since only two possibilities exist here; either you are running amok in defence of being thoroughly exposed by my clear-sighted perfection or you are (albeit rather poorly) attempting reverse psychology by pretending that you are not attempting to do reverse psychology. Next thing you know you will try to influence the suggestion of taking a navel picture or something ridiculous like that.
While I acknowledge expending every ounce of energy I have in not sending a navel pic, your post fails in it's shameless attempt for something far more inappropriate.
Your also so tempted to correct my misuse of "it's" and "your" in this post, and your actuallu pissed its intentional because you can't flaunt you're grammatical smartness.
Your also so tempted to correct my misuse of "it's" and "your" in this post, and your actuallu pissed its intentional because you can't flaunt you're grammatical smartness.
She can get you for the incorrect spelling of "actually", though.
Your also so tempted to correct my misuse of "it's" and "your" in this post, and your actuallu pissed its intentional because you can't flaunt you're grammatical smartness.
While I acknowledge expending every ounce of energy I have in not sending a navel pic, your post fails in it's shameless attempt for something far more inappropriate.
Here is a picture of my legs that is kicking your ass with my dog kicking your dogs ass.
Reply to Wosret You have that much desired Auschwitz belly going. Maybe start with some soup and work your way up to solid foods just so as to not shock your depleted system.
Reply to TimeLine Your dog has excessive skin, which means it stinks to high hell. It's clearly got some basset in it, which means it's also lazy and probably makes that annoying baying sound. Your dog is a God damned idiot.
Yep, gloves are off.
And that brings me to your hands. Despite all I said about your dog (which I don't regret by the way), your hands appear as the most delightful weightless angelic instruments I have ever seen. I am truly taken aback. Might you show me more angles of those heavenly wonders?
Hanover 10
TimeLine 10 (I would be remiss in not rewarding you for those amazing digits of yours, one point for each).
I'm hardly emaciated, I'm likely about 15% body fat, which is decent, but I sure would like to be more like 10%, but I'd have to take up running, or daily cartio, dehydrate myself, or something. Most of the pics you see of people super shredded, they aren't like that all the time, that shit is hard to maintain, and still have the food energy to stand up straight.
Lets see yours though, don't be shy.
I like doing the hitt cartio, and some of those dudes look pretty huge, but they talk about burning joints from built up lactic acid, and you can see them not strongly pressing into their frame, don't rival my alignment in my view, they gotta access that demon energy, and lift up the core.
Reply to Wosret I can't show you my gut because my manhood unfortunately casts an impenetrable shadow across the lower 9/10 of my body. No flash can penetrate that shadow. I'm using the word "penetrate" here for a clever double entendre because that word is also used when describing a particular sexual act. That act is called intercourse. That's how babies are made.
Jesus, do I really have to break all this down for you?
No, I don't remember her describing herself as far right, and by all extents and purposes she is not far right.
The extent of her rightness is certainly questionable. The purpose, I suspect, is to put on a better show. Moderates are so boring.
But I was quoting her from one of those associated videos that pop up in YouTube. One were she talks about the ‘white lives matter’ rally in Tennessee. That was another odd show. I only watched part of it but she seemed to be suggesting that if these white supremacists were to improve their optics (dress in their Sunday best) their message would be better received. She may understand the concept of optics but she’s clueless when it comes to branding. A suit and tie is unlikely to resonate with the average redneck moron, their target audience.
ArguingWAristotleTiffOctober 30, 2017 at 19:09#1198170 likes
Einstein on time:
"When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute - and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity." 8-)
The extent of her rightness is certainly questionable. The purpose, I suspect, is to put on a better show. Moderates are so boring.
She isn't a moderate, I'm not a moderate either in fact. Most people would call me right-wing, or even far-right, even though I actually am not. Wosret is more right-wing than me >:O
Reply to Agustino You seem to be somewhat of a political black sheep, like a Red Tory or Blue Labour, and you seem to make more noise in support of topics associated with right-wing politics, like Trump, religion, business, social conservativism, and how things were better in the past.
The thing that gets you placed far-right is simply opinions on the economy, in strong support of free-market capitalism, and against socialism. That girl was likely surprised because she answered questions about social values, and religion and what not like a right wing person. That anything other than the economy matters for politics is annoying to me. I'm as radically libertarian as it gets when it comes to social and individual freedoms, which just also extends to the economy.
I'm just saying, that he used his rock star status as a celebrity scientist to routinely cheat on his wife, and had a list of demands that he gave her, including the demand that she forego sitting with him... so he clearly didn't mean her when he said that.
Blew a blood vessel in my eye today, maybe woke up like that, or might have done it but didn't notice at work until later, as I didn't notice until half way through the day. Looks fucking awful, indicates weakened blood vessels, or perhaps hyper tension, though last time I did my blood pressure at the mall it was in the normal near optimal range, though I used to have chromic hyper tension. Hopefully isn't the precursor to a stroke, or hemorrhage...
Haven't been to the doctor in years, not even sure if my medical card works, have to try to gets checked out tomorrow after work.
Your dog has excessive skin, which means it stinks to high hell. It's clearly got some basset in it, which means it's also lazy and probably makes that annoying baying sound. Your dog is a God damned idiot.
As your dog repeatedly barks at every Tom, Dick and Harry that walks past the house, my dog would silently walk over and with his excessive skin smother your stupid mutt like a pillow in a homicidal movie scene, soundless just like my hound.
And that brings me to your hands. Despite all I said about your dog (which I don't regret by the way), your hands appear as the most delightful weightless angelic instruments I have ever seen. I am truly taken aback. Might you show me more angles of those heavenly wonders?
I see you have taken to a new approach, knowing the jump from feet to lips was a colossal mistake.Alas, reverse psychology is as much a fail as being sycophantic. I'm not as gullible as @Wosret so you must find the right approach with someone as witty and clever as me.
That anything other than the economy matters for politics is annoying to me. I'm as radically libertarian as it gets when it comes to social and individual freedoms, which just also extends to the economy.
As your dog repeatedly barks at every Tom, Dick and Harry that walks past the house, my dog would silently walk over and with his excessive skin smother your stupid mutt like a pillow in a homicidal movie scene, soundless just like my hound.
:D
ArguingWAristotleTiffOctober 30, 2017 at 21:40#1198660 likes
There is something of a link between eye blood vessels and brain hemorrhages I read, like they can tell the health and strength of the brain ones by looking at the eye ones, but most of the time it's benign. Haven't forgotten words yet, wish I have sleepiness, so I'm fine so far. My uncle died in his early thirties from a brain hemorrhage though.
I'll see a doctor about it tomorrow, I don't work tomorrow night, and wanna get some sleep before work tonight. Canadian hospitals are free, but there is no telling how long of a wait you'll have without an appointment. Could be six hours.
ArguingWAristotleTiffOctober 30, 2017 at 21:59#1198790 likes
Reply to Wosret Wow. Mayor almost died of a brain hemorrhage out his nose, in fact they left the sterile tampons in his nose that was holding back the bleeding until surgery.
Crazy though as I have been watching this show where by applying drops on your eyes, you can experience any experience in life you want to.
Deleted UserOctober 30, 2017 at 22:02#1198840 likes
I remember that, and thought about it too. I want to experience the one where I'm immortal, and immune to health problems.
On the up side quitting smoking seems to actually magically be working, it's like day four now, which is the longest I've gone in a long long time, for some reason it isn't even that hard, like before. I think because I like scared myself by looking at all of the before and after pictures of smokers and recovery, and how shitty my skin has been looking, and know that I lose circulation and sensitivity in my hands and feet, and cannot easily maintain it. For whatever reason, it hasn't been a super hard battle so far, I feel resigned.
ArguingWAristotleTiffOctober 30, 2017 at 22:05#1198880 likes
Reply to Lone Wolf He wanted to experience scuba diving and gets lost in a diving accident and it kills one and almost two now. She (the inventor) is trying to figure out how to get her boyfriend who was involved in the actual accident back.
On the up side quitting smoking seems to actually magically be working, it's like day four now, which is the longest I've gone in a long long time, for some reason it isn't even that hard, like before. I think because I like scared myself by looking at all of the before and after pictures of smokers and recovery, and how shitty my skin has been looking, and know that I lose circulation and sensitivity in my hands and feet, and cannot easily maintain it. For whatever reason, it hasn't been a super hard battle so far, I feel resigned.
Kudos to you! Kicking any habit is hard but especially smoking.
Unlikely at your age, especially in the absence of other symptoms. If you had a severe brain haemorrhage, you'd be in a coma by now. Minor one, you'd get worse in 8-12hrs. If neither of that, unlikely to be anything, but better check with a doctor.
Do you have a blood pressure meter? (if not you should invest in one - good machine) You could check for a very wide difference between systolic and diastolic (they call it pulse pressure, 60-80+ difference) which could be indicative of increased intracranial pressure.
They have blood pressure machines at the mall, in the pharmacies. Last I checked it was all pretty good, and even as a smoker my heart rate is only like high 60s, low 70s last time I checked like a month ago.
They have blood pressure machines at the mall, in the pharmacies. Last I checked it was all pretty good, and even as a smoker my heart rate is only like high 60s, low 70s last time I checked like a month ago.
It's not a very constant thing though. I mean some people have high blood pressure at certain times in the day, and normal at others. Ideally, you'd measure it 3 times a day for like 1-2 weeks to get an idea. Some people even have a BP holter monitor, which they wear for a 24h period to see how it changes through the day. I've had to wear an EKG holter before.
Your pulse sounds normal. Mine is low 60s or high 50s. But can be higher after eating, etc.
My BP also tended to be towards the higher, and still is. I have 130/80 or even 140/80 sometimes. But I've always been like this, no known cause.
You are so under my spell, thinking you freely chose to send me the dog pic. I so manipulated that out of you.
There is a way for you to free yourself from this mind control, but you don't want to hear it. Or do you?
This must be so maddening infuriating exasperating arousing that you can't think straight.
Come now, old horse, surely I am two steps ahead of you. I know exactly how to madden, infuriate, exasperate and arouse to a point that the other fails to think straight, but that is precisely where I begin to experience the boredom of predictability. That dog pic was merely an enticement knowing it would weaken you to want more of what you cannot have, leading to yet another fail; I am no capitalist, you cannot sell me an idea as though I want it.
Come now, old horse, surely I am two steps ahead of you. I know exactly how to madden, infuriate, exasperate and arouse to a point that the other fails to think straight, but that is precisely where I begin to experience the boredom of predictability.
This only applies as long as there is enough demand for you or you have monopoly on the meat market. Newer models are coming, you know.
After these days are gone you'll become the annoying cat lady with this skill set.
Reply to Meta This is compelling, albeit rather primitive and it is unfortunate for you that not only is your understanding of capitalism lacklustre, but that I do not have self-esteem to warrant the fear of losing it. This is not about buying and selling, but rather the predictability of behaviour and whether newer models are coming, power is a sophisticated tool. Take Lysistrata.
Come now, old horse, surely I am two steps ahead of you. I know exactly how to madden, infuriate, exasperate and arouse to a point that the other fails to think straight, but that is precisely where I begin to experience the boredom of predictability.
Ahhh! I see what you've done! You taunt me with the horse reference knowing I can't resist the obvious sophomoric jokes that so define all that is Hanover.
I am no capitalist, you cannot sell me an idea as though I want it.
Capitalism is not a choice, but part of the inescapable state of nature. You will mindlessly shop for that perfect new purse (or whatever it is that chicks do) regardless of what misguided manifesto you have read.
Capitalism is not a choice, but part of the inescapable state of nature. You will mindlessly shop for that perfect new purse (or whatever it is that chicks do) regardless of what misguided manifesto you have read.
It is a choice. I choose to buy Lorna Jane just like you choose to buy leather shoes, in order to fit in and the inescapable part is the ideological part, the imagined part.
Don't call me a chick. Otherwise I will reciprocate, only I will remove the ch from the word and add a d.
It is a choice. I choose to buy Lorna Jane just like you choose to buy leather shoes, in order to fit in and the inescapable part is the ideological part, the imagined part.
It's a choice, but there is some amount of mental gymnastics one must perform to convince themselves they are not capitalistic while the Lorna Jane purse swings from their shoulder and they are otherwise adorned from head to toe in various labels.
It would seem the financial incentives of capitalism are working well if you're willing to push yourself for the reward of a designer purse.
It's a choice, but there is some amount of mental gymnastics one must perform to convince themselves they are not capitalistic while the Lorna Jane purse swings from their shoulder and they are otherwise adorned from head to toe in various labels.
It is not convincing yourself that you are not capitalistic, but rather being conscious that you are, which leads to the whole Neo/Cypher choice; the daunting and isolating desert of the real, or the delicious steak of ignorance. There are those that wear Nike shoes because others are and they want to be like others because they are taught that being like others will bring happiness and indeed, the comradeship that follows this agenda only adds to the burden that the ideology is real. In the end, it is this comradeship that people want and capitalism is merely a system driven by this desire.
Reply to TimeLine Peer pressure is a driver in all we do, but surely there are others. Dining at fine restaurants, traveling the world, and continuing your education can all be the rewards of a capitalistic society, none of which are engaged in necessarily to fit in, but are something of value for their own sake. Quoting TimeLine
In the end, it is this comradeship that people want and capitalism is merely a system driven by this desire.
This overlooks the Ebenezer Scrooge personality, where it's control they want, screw everyone else. That personality may be a rarer stereotype than people assumes exists, but it does exist.
while the Lorna Jane purse swings from their shoulder
Always fact checking. Lorna Jane doesn't sell purses, Hanover, but they do have a line of sport bras you might find interesting to project onto your imagined figure of TimeLine.
Lorna Jane's idea of an accessory is a decorated water bottle to keep the hot Lorna Jane consumers adequately hydrated. Unfortunately, there are lots of phthalates in designer water bottles, and chemicals found in PVC flooring, plastic shower curtains, processed food and other trappings of modern life LIKE Lorna Jane water bottles may be sapping women’s interest in sex, never mind what it is doing to the male brain.
Apparently to Pete it's a must to accept at least trying anti-depressants and pills (he seems to be little aware of the addiction effects and how hard it is to get rid of them), that it's a must to have a job :s , that it's a must to have friends, and that it's a must to be dating >:O >:O in order to overcome depression.
@Thorongil paged me about this a week ago. Are you saying that Pete, whoever that is, shouldn't take medication, get a job, have meaningful relationships in order to overcome depression? Also, I'd have to know what sort of depression you're attempting to describe - situational depression, seasonal depression, chronic depression, run-of-the-mill blues, etc.
Also, I'd have to know what sort of depression you're attempting to describe - situational depression, seasonal depression, chronic depression, run-of-the-mill blues, etc.
Major Depressive Disorder.
BuxtebuddhaOctober 31, 2017 at 22:29#1201700 likes
Reply to Posty McPostface Taking care of yourself mentally, physically and spiritually does not emasculate you, on the contrary if you want to find the Aristotlean mean, strive towards a goal and reach it; wallowing itself is nothing but an easily overcome obstacle.
I have experienced pain that resulted in heartbreak and self-pity and indeed it is useful when you are in a serious crises and seek to cocoon yourself like a caterpillar and find a way to heal, but eventually you need to break out the silk shield and begin again.
I just think the Cynics got it right. One ought not wallowing, but it is a harmless thing. What's the big deal anyways. Can't stand the pretentiousness here.
Reply to Posty McPostface I just find whinging annoying, and when philosophers are called mad to justify the whinge. The Cynics are the pretentious ones.
The last temptation of the Buddha is enlightenment, to maintain enlightenment, and say fuck the world, on the true knowledge that it will not be a message that can be conveyed. Brahma appears, and pleads with the Buddha to attempt it anyway, as the amount of people that will be saved isn't zero. So, then the Buddha does not wallow in enlightment, and thus the Buddha surpasses the Buddha.
My sister thinks I have some hyper-activity disorder. People often shit on me for all the dancing I do, but fuck them. Go rain on someone else's parade.
My sister thinks I have some hyper-activity disorder. People often shit on me for all the dancing I do, but fuck them. Go rain on someone else's parade.
Tell them, Fick dich, du Arschloch!
*Continues wallowing*
Even the Nazis, which exploited meth in pills called 'Pervitin', found out that it wasn't worth the hassle soon after dispensing them to troops. I heard the Allies started giving it to their own troops because they didn't feel like shooting at the 'ubermensch' attacking them. Keep in mind that what you see in Hollywood films, is actually a small percentage of people actually wanting to shoot at enemies at all.
Yeah, a significant percentage of people won't kill someone else, under any circumstance, even when their life is in danger, it's why conscription doesn't work.
I can't find the relevant papers by Aldous Huxley; but, his brother, Julian Huxley (who was instrumental in founding the United Nations), often talked with him about how a 'better future' could be created for mankind after WWII through social engineering and conditioning by the United Nations. I'll find it later need to wallow in bed some more for sleep.
Yeah, a significant percentage of people won't kill someone else, under any circumstance, even when their life is in danger, it's why conscription doesn't work.
I'm not sure this is true. Self-defense is an instinct. If someone starts attacking you, for example, you will instinctively either fight back or run away (if possible). So I'm not sure where you take this from. I think quite the contrary, it takes a lot of re-education in order to block the natural instinct of fighting back or running away when in danger.
It's fight or flight, not just fight. It isn't even just those to, there is also freeze, as in do nothing at all. If it were just the one, then everything on earth would just do the one, but since there are the three, there is variation.
It's fight or flight, not just fight. It isn't even just those to, there is also freeze, as in do nothing at all. If it were just the one, then everything on earth would just do the one, but since there are the three, there is variation.
Yeah, fight or flight, but if flight is impossible (which is what we were discussing - you said "under any circumstance"), then they will fight no? Freeze seems to be just what sometimes happens in response to the impossibility of flight and the presence of an overwhelming threat that cannot be dealt with through fight.
I misspoke, not under any circumstance tout court, but under any war circumstance, with guns and stuff. Someone shooting at them, someone shooting their friends. Probably not like just holding them down, and not hurting them enough to incapacitate them, and letting the actual physical pressure build.
AkanthinosNovember 01, 2017 at 18:17#1204390 likes
Freezing isn't really a response, tho, isn't it. Except perhaps against a T-rex with movement based-vision?
The state of intense terror which disables proper responses isn't itself a response.
The idea that a large percentage of armed forces won't actually try to kill the soldiers of the enemy force when doing battle with them has always seemed a bit suspect. You don't need to try to kill enemy soldiers 100% of the time in battle. Shooting in the air at nothing plays it's purpose as covering fire, and if you make the enemy retreat without killing it, you've still won by most standards.
Semantics. Freezing is a thing that can happen that isn't the other two things.
Well, I've heard it, based on info from Vietnam, and conscription means being forced into it, placed there against your will. It makes sense to me, and incredulity isn't a disproof, which I'm of course willing to accept, but people just telling me that they don't think that is true, well, I dunno what to say. I've heard it, and it seems right. It isn't so apodictic that I'd say anyone is ignorant for disbelieving it, but I do have some sources for it, so I'd need more than incredulity to think it's wrong.
It makes sense to me, and incredulity isn't a disproof
Except it doesn't. When you're overwhelmed by so much fear, and you see aggression as a possibility to get rid of that fear by killing off the enemy, wouldn't your natural instinct be towards aggression?
I just think that it makes sense, I retracted the stronger unqualified claim, and would rather say that in a war scenario, enough hesitation and inaction makes it not practically different.
I just think that it makes sense, I retracted the stronger unqualified claim, and would rather say that in a war scenario, enough hesitation and inaction makes it not practically different.
Maybe, although in the war situation, you're typically not alone shooting at the enemy, you'd be in a group. So wouldn't a person typically give in to peer pressure and follow what the others are doing generally, even though they don't like it or agree with it? That's similar to what prison guards in gulags and concentration camps did many times.
Again, I've heard that a significant amount of people actually didn't shoot people in Vietnam, I don't think that one can reason things into and out of existence, so that is really really powerful to me. I'd have to have actual contrary data to shake that.
Again, I've heard that a significant amount of people actually didn't shoot people in Vietnam, I don't think that one can reason things into and out of existence, so that is really really powerful to me. I'd have to have actual contrary data to shake that.
Okay, fair enough. I've never talked with people who were conscripted in a war by force, so I really don't have much experience with this, so no point contradicting you.
They aren't even disobeying, too. If the order is to "shoot", then shooting 20 feet above the enemy line still counts as shooting. And it's not exactly like it doesn't contribute, since volume of fire has been the first determinant factor in winning unsupported infantry engagement since WWII.
I can see how many people could not want to kill enemy soldiers even during a war. If Trudeau started a war against Maine tomorrow and I got conscripted, I wouldn't want to shoot anyone. But I wouldn't give back Jay Peak either. But war is not really a controlled experiment, where you can isolate the pressures at play on the individual's behaviour, so I don't think it should be taken as a test case here.
Responses to threat fall in two category : fight or flight. If a behaviour displayed doesn't fall broadly within those two (very large) categories, then it should be taken as a sign of defect in those response mecanism, or as a sign toward an additionnal property of the stimulus which disables the mecanism, i.e. psychological attacks.
AkanthinosNovember 01, 2017 at 19:16#1204730 likes
Québec, Montréal to be precise. I lived in Red Deer for something like 5 years, tho. I remember getting blizzard during Halloween back then too. Gotta love it.
I'm from the maritimes, but have lived here for about the past five years. Yeah, we don't get spring or fall here, it just moves from summer to winter in a week.
AkanthinosNovember 01, 2017 at 19:46#1204830 likes
"And, to go even a step further, is the practice of fist-fucking not the exemplary case of what Deleuze called the "expansion of a concept?" The fist is put to a new use; the notion of penetration is expanded into the combination of the hand with sexual penetration, into the exploration of the inside of a body. No wonder Foucault, Deleuze's Other, was practicing fisting: is fist-fucking not the sexual invention of the twentieth century, a new model of eroticism and pleasure? It is no longer genitalized, but focused just on the penetration of the surface, with the role of the phallus being taken over by the hand, the autonomized partial object par excellence. "
- Slavoj Zizek
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 01, 2017 at 19:49#1204840 likes
Sorry, but you'll have to pay tariffs on the import of that precious white gold.
Suck it Boeing.
I'll pay a tariff on the snow but considering Boeing is a likely future employer of one of my children, whose education I am funding, I will hold my tongue when it comes to saying anything but wonderful things about Boeing. 8-)
What kind of money are we talking?
AkanthinosNovember 01, 2017 at 20:03#1204910 likes
Look, if you promise to do your best to convince Trump not to drop NAFTA, I'll drop the tariffs.
I would love to do my best to convince Trump not to drop NAFTA if Canadians agree to not be insulted when an American refers to Canada as the USA's little sister. Fair?
Also, tell Ivanka to stop looking at Justin that way. He's taken.
I will let her know, I am sure the news will crush her. If she persists, you let me know and I will head to the barn and get some horse blinders for her and start Bedazzling them.
Do you have Justin's credit card #? Because these blinders are going to DAZZLE everyone who lays eyes on her.
Taking care of yourself mentally, physically and spiritually does not emasculate you,
Not true. Every time I take care of myself, I grow breasts. Each time they're more magnificent than the last. Then when don't give a shit, I grow bold like a horse.
I liked Sheps and xzjoel and Maia, the self proclaimed eyeless girl. Then there was the person who said she was a 17 year old girl who suffered from perennial hotness, and she couldn't figure out how to live in a normal world being so sexy.
Then there was Hanover. A giant of a man, legs like oak trees, a voice like thunder. He died though to the steam engine. True story.
Not true. Every time I take care of myself, I grow breasts. Each time they're more magnificent than the last. Then when don't give a shit, I grow bold like a horse.
Balls. If you were to have said "balls", then I think that that would have been a better fit. Balls like a horse - what a lovely thought. Almost as lovely as the thought of Hanover with breasts.
So I was talking to this woman the other day and I mentioned she sounded drunk some nights when I called her and I wondered if she was a drunk. She then called me a prickly dick, to which I agreed for the sake of argument, but reminded her that doesn't make her not a drunk. She went on and on about me being really harsh, so I apologized for my truthfulness just to end the headache that was her voice, but she kept up her critique of my brand of honesty. Finally I just said I was going to fucking burn her house to the ground, kill her God damn cats and hang all her family members from the willows. That made her laugh and we're friends again.
I tell you this in case you needed some pointers to improve your game, assuming you pursue drunks. I'm not really sure she is a drunk, which makes my behavior like really right or really wrong. That's the problem with telling it like it is. It not be like be like you thought it is.
Although it's too bad you're not, say, To Mega Therion. Why can't you be To Mega Therion? Or sheps - remember him? Ah, the good ol' days...
Why did Sheps not continue on? School, was it? To Mega Therion had some specific reason -- nothing to do with sexism or gender imbalance in the forum -- something to do with his life, work, the oscillating grundi ...
Anyone wanna know how enlightenment works, giving it up, and why it can't be communicated, and what's really going on? I normally don't say it so bluntly, but everyone is deluded, and scre scre as fuck. Because of the stories they believe, and they just remember shit, and then just do that shit they remember. Think that shit they remember. Remember remember remember. both distracting you super hard from the environment, and sensory experience. The more you spend remembering stuff, the more time you risk forgetting how it works. That's just how we work, we just forget a lot. What you forget is that you're still just remembering, and not paying attention to your senses, you're just crazy as hell, because of this. The more terrifying thing, is that words, understanding, and all of that is being understood, and interpreted by memory, because you've forgotten how to stop remembering. What you don't understand, and can't understand, is how to build your perception from this moment without history. An act of pure creation and all memories are merely echoes of those events. So that, forms of it are totally irrelevant, the expressed form of it doesn't exist past the event, until you're remembering the difference, you can't remember whether or not you're remembering. The more you do it, the more deluded you become, because the less you'll be able to pay attention, and the more you'll be just replaying memories at me without even realizing it. Just reading this, it cannot be grasped until you're doing it. Mindfulness is like using fire against fire, you have to train yourself to be able to remember how to stop remembering.
Most of the reason for why it is possible to escape is because of habit. The more time you spend in pure remembering not to forget, the easier it gets, the more frequency it occurs with. The thing is, the more time you spend reflecting both in duration, and frequency, but just because it mainly just reduces the probability of forgetting the difference, but it could still, and with inevitability most certainly will occur anyway if you spend any time at all there from the point of remembering and unword.
The difference is that in one moment, you're creating that knowledge brand new, and in the other something merely correlates to your understandings of scenes, and previous creative events of understanding in relation to them, as echoed memories. So that in the former case, something brand new, and totally accurate in every fucking way, because it is reality and not a memory of it is taking place.
So, this means that the more time you spend remembering ways to create the understanding in terms of signs and images the more likely it will become that you'll forget the difference. Memories also decay, they get more wrong with time. So stuff getting repeated, and not reiterated by you, and by the group, then it always decays over time, and gets wronger, and wronger.
I member those dudes though, they were pretty cool.
To Mega Therion had some specific reason -- nothing to do with sexism or gender imbalance in the forum -- something to do with his life, work, the oscillating grundi ...
Yes, something like that. Perhaps he went back into the sea from which he came.
We were just talking about decorum, in the "Let's get rid of Kevin" thread. Some people thought Sapientia was not nice to people. I suppose this back-handed welcome would be an example.
It's probably best if we all just go ahead and step boldly on each other's toes, instead of pussy-footing.
AkanthinosNovember 01, 2017 at 23:18#1205900 likes
We were just talking about decorum, in the "Let's get rid of Kevin" thread. Some people thought Sapientia was not nice to people. I suppose this back-handed welcome would be an example.
How could they think such a thing? I'm the nicest thing since sliced breast.
AkanthinosNovember 01, 2017 at 23:21#1205920 likes
You know, I really wish I had never read "The Crossed".
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 01, 2017 at 23:28#1205950 likes
@Wosret You are amazing! Thank you for the snowball headed towards Hell!
I really miss the seasons mostly because of the seasonal change that allows you to age. Arizona is one long, bright day with heat that is just about to give into *80 and offer a cold snap of *75.
Definitely wish that it was hotter, or sunnier. :( . I need some vitamin C, bad.
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 01, 2017 at 23:52#1206080 likes
And the Christmas music in the grocery store has begun. Right now the songs are without the words but just wait...shudders...Bing Crosby is not far away and some of the songs are nostalgic yes but some are downright sad.
Reply to Sapientia And during my transitional stage, I would have horse balls and simple, pragmatic breasts, neither mundane nor glorious, but useful both for feeding my young and arousal. I think such a person, coupled with hefty horse gonads and breasts as described, would be a perfect beast, far better than a centaur.
The polar opposite, on the other hand, with a cavernous pulsating love canal coupled with dime sized, useless man nipplets, neither helpful to feed the young nor terribly helpful during arousal, would be the most useless beast, far worse than Hitler.
Bing Crosby raped my cat, so I'm understandably not a fan, despite his sending me an apologetic fruit and nut basket every Columbus Day (as that was the day of his unwelcome intrusion) from the grave.
Not true. Every time I take care of myself, I grow breasts. Each time they're more magnificent than the last.
That's what happened to me, too.
Geez, we're kind of like virtual sisters you and I. I can just see this happy montage of us two shopping together to theme music as we pick out some fabulously cheeky underclothing together.
Reply to TimeLine You've appealed to my most basic instinct: the desire to pretend to be a woman so that I can gain access to the women's changing room. How you entered my mind is a mystery, or perhaps you spoke to a 15 year old boy for answers, as that was the moment my sense of humor and all my basic drives permanently formed.
Reply to TimeLine Curious you should deduce from my post that I was male. I simply indicated that I wished to pretend to be a woman. There are so many other logical possibilities here than me being male. Let us enumerate some of them: (1) I am a girl, (2) I am a gyrl, (3) I am a womyn, (4) I am trans-fluid (not to be confused with transmission fluid), (5) I am transmission fluid, (6) I am tri-genderish, or (7) I am a convicted felon stripped of all rights of personhood, gender, or identity.
My point is simple: it's 2017 and the days of hate (i.e. h8) you harken back to have, thank Zeus, been replaced with a striking of labels and an acceptance of people as they are.
Reply to Hanover I'm sorry, Hanover. I was momentary flustered and forgot the possibility of you being tri-genderish. I will visit the museum of tolerance to remind me of the importance of distinguishing stereotypes.
If you go see White Christmas, be sure to bring some dramamine and insulin -- yule need a couple of doses before the thing is over.
Oh my that is the exact song that just rips my heart right out of my chest. When my Grampa was in the service he said that "White Christmas" was his favorite song because it reminded him of back home, where he really wanted to be. Now? It makes me long for him to be back in the living again. ~nose scrunch so the tears don't drop~ You know what I speak of~ (L)
And for that matter, haven't seen Der Untergang either.
I saw it in the movie theater. After it ended, it was dead quiet as people were processing it and then they actually applauded. I can't remember that ever happening with another movie.
I saw it in the movie theater. After it ended, it was dead quiet as people were processing it and then they actually applauded. I can't remember that ever happening with another movie.
Cool, I'll look into it! I've never been to a movie where that happened before.
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 02, 2017 at 18:31#1208740 likes
Have you seen "The Circle"? It made me want to chuck every smart device I have. NicK has been telling me for years that the technology is there for anyone that wants to pay the price to obtain it. So much for any kind of privacy.
Phone one doesn't, but there's nothing I can do about that. I need to take pictures with phone quite often, so that's life. Can't protect everything.
If your phone is smart enough to take pictures, it is smart enough to be turned into a listening device, even if your phone is turned off.
Watch the movie :-O
If your phone is smart enough to take pictures, it is smart enough to be turned into a listening device, even if your phone is turned off.
Watch the movie :-O
Yeah, I am aware of that. That's why I behave in such a way such that even if somebody was listening, it wouldn't be a problem. And obviously, if having an important discussion, I'll leave the phone out of the room :D .
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 02, 2017 at 19:28#1208850 likes
Going to have to go to court on the 16'th to support my mom against my dad. Haven't been this stressed over what to say and how to make her case stronger over the house we live in.
Reply to Posty McPostfaceTell the truth, including all the details of all the things he's done, making sure to say that you are in fear of being in physical harm when he is around. Of course, don't say anything that isn't true.
Reply to JJJJS That is perhaps the most disconcerting video I have ever seen. But, enough of that, what I want to know is how on earth you managed to find such video and why you would post it here no less, therein exposing what it is you do to pass the time.
Hey guys I'm back. I have a feeling that I will get banned. Ive already got warned. So I love you and I love this forum. But the only way I can express my thoughts is ugly sexism :(
Reply to Agustino Oh Lord my only sin is that Im an ugly sexist man saying ugly sexist things!
Edit: Baden just wrote this to me the other day:
"Expect your unpleasant comments to be moderated in future even in the shoutbox. The drunk excuse isn't going to work anymore. And consider this a warning that the penalty for ugly sexism is banning."
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 04, 2017 at 14:01#1213100 likes
Hmmm Trump is out of the country for a week, the week when we are "supposedly" going to be putting our electrical grid through it's paces, in the event of ? What we don't know but we are trying to prepare for it.
unenlightenedNovember 04, 2017 at 14:56#1213140 likes
Going to have to go to court on the 16'th to support my mom against my dad. Haven't been this stressed over what to say and how to make her case stronger over the house we live in.
Any help appreciated.
Say to the judge that you are stressed, and that you hate being put in the position of having to side with one parent against the other. Say that you need your mother's support, and you need to live at home. Say that your mental health is at stake, because it is. Like Hanover said, "Tell the truth..."
Very doubtful. Do you present me the challenge of beating It?
On a serious note, what the fuck are they are all doing? While I found the initial duranguense-style dancing man with his oversized blue bathers filled with dirty water to merit a small chuckle, the poor gollum-creature looked like he was in serious distress.
And, no. I may be a tough cookie, but dip me in a cup of tea and i'll crumble to bits. I still don't look at sex scenes in m-rated films, so you win. Let's leave it at that.
And, no. I may be a tough cookie, but dip me in a cup of tea and i'll crumble to bits. I still don't look at sex scenes in m-rated films, so you win. Let's leave it at that.
That's how you play TimeLine, tell her to do one thing, you know she'll do the opposite ;)
That's how you play TimeLine, tell her to do one thing, you know she'll do the opposite ;)
The problem here is the idea that you think you can tell me what to do. Hanover asked. You cannot "play" me when I am not playing along with you, but even so, I will always be two steps ahead of you.
No run along to bed and let the grown-ups have their discussion.
Re the video, I'm on the side of the guy they tried to mock. I hate jock humour and whoever made the video deserves a kick in the nuts as far as I'm concerned. So, I'd happily join forces with "Gollum" on a revenge mission. Death to the jocks! Vive les Gollums!
AkanthinosNovember 05, 2017 at 01:35#1215060 likes
Re the video, I'm on the side of the guy they tried to mock. I hate jock humour and whoever made the video deserves a kick in the nuts as far as I'm concerned. So, I'd happily join forces with "Gollum" on a revenge mission. Death to the jocks! Vive les Gollums!
Those servants of Sauron. Wicked, tricksy, jockses.
Join then my rebel army of freaks and outcasts! We shall overrun the jockses and rule them with an iron fist enforcing a ban on all video games (except minesweeper :B), restricting muscle mass to [appropriately low levels which I can't be bothered to Google], and outlawing all sports involving balls! It will be a nirvana of suppressive weirdness and non-violence (except towards jockses)!
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 05, 2017 at 14:11#1216650 likes
@jamalrob 24 hours and the countdown begins....now!
She is really cute for her age, she is Holistic in nature and a Pisces. What can I tell her about you? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh and she can never know that I am the one behind this possible love connection, NicK would have my head!
On a serious note, what the fuck are they are all doing?
They are dancing in a shit pond, except for Boxcar Willie, who, after murdering a family and creating a Norman Rockwell dinner table scene (albeit headless) for the cleaning lady to happen upon the following day, will be jumping the next train to play his harmonica and tell his romantic tale, unencumbered by the binds of responsibility that oppress the rest of us.
His is a song of freedom, unfortunately harmonized with the background tones of serial murder and the impregnable sadness it predictably brings. We all laugh at first when we hear of It, but realize a few days later when we begin to realize the butchered will never return that we also realize our laughter ought have at least been mild disappointment, if not eternal mourning.
I'm rising to my self created challenge to create a more disconcerting post here than what you saw on the video. Successful?Quoting TimeLine
I still don't look at sex scenes in m-rated films, so you win. Let's leave it at that.
Well my Victorian princess, allow me to tell you what occurs when you shield your eyes. The man is writhing atop the woman rhythmically as a sign of affection, which culminates into a protracted legal battle and child support payments. It is neither romantic nor erotic, but irresponsible conduct not worth the lifetime consequences. Some wish to watch train wrecks, but your decision to avert your eyes understandable.
Speaking of trains, have I shared with you the magical fun of our favorite hobo Boxcar Willie?
He's saying, "Mental health is crooked... [i]crooked[/I]... and... let me tell you, we're going to make mental health great again... we're going to drain the swamp on mental health... and we're going to win bigly... [I]bigly[/I]... trust me, I'm a smart guy... I've made billions... and I have the best words... [I]the best[/I]...", accompanied by the usual tiny hand gestures.
He's saying don't blame guns because the NRA doesn't like when you blame guns, and he's saying he's not going to do anything about guns, so don't even talk about guns or it'll make him look bad. (I presume as that's the usual Republican thing. I'm not going to get into it again anyhow.)
I'm rising to my self created challenge to create a more disconcerting post here than what you saw on the video. Successful?
You initiated the gripping tale of murder only to thicken the plot with Boxcar Willie telling his romantic tale to... well, who? Is this person at risk of becoming headless, where like Garland 'The Marietta Mangler' Greene will wear the head like a hat as he drives down route 66?
Well my Victorian princess, allow me to tell you what occurs when you shield your eyes. The man is writhing atop the woman rhythmically as a sign of affection, which culminates into a protracted legal battle and child support payments.
Now, this was disconcerting. *cools herself with a Victorian fan
That wasn't what [I]I[/I] was suggesting. He has a better intellect and is of a better political persuasion, but I was merely suggesting that I'd love to see Trump fired by Lord Sugar after being given a good roasting.
Like that mangy guy near the bottle shop who thought John Carroll was Brian Schatz? When I was there not too long ago, the democrats were the majority. It is the Aloha way.
I have important things to do out there in the real world, yet I'm neglecting them by wasting precious time on here.
Time for a reality check!
You can't do this to me! I have the rest of the week off and I am going to enjoy my holiday at home in my trackiedacks, slowly eating that giant pack of doritos and having a fight with that stupid bird squawking outside my window every morning. Brush your shoulders off and see the good in all this... I'll... I'll show you a picture of my elbow if that helps?
You can't do this to me! I have the rest of the week off and I am going to enjoy my holiday at home in my trackiedacks, slowly eating that giant pack of doritos and having a fight with that stupid bird squawking outside my window every morning.
Don't fret! I managed to get only two of the things on my to-do list done, which took about an hour, before returning here. Procrastination is my forte.
There's no problem which can't be resolved with an elbow. Elbow is the new black.
How dare you. I would have you know that my elbows are perfectly proportioned cubital nodes as smooth as a baby's bottom. Many would die just to get a glimpse of these soft, round, arthritis-free capsules of perfection.
Like that mangy guy near the bottle shop who thought John Carroll was Brian Schatz? When I was there not too long ago, the democrats were the majority. It is the Aloha way.
I only travel on TRUMPtrain :-O - guess that means I'm not welcome in Hawaii.
Don't lie, you are only on the Trumptrain because you know it will annoy people, and you love annoying people :P
No, it's rather because I see in Trump someone like me, who everyone counts out, but who doesn't give up and ultimately finds a way to win. Watching Trump was frankly inspirational.
No, it's rather because I see in Trump someone like me, who everyone counts out, but who doesn't give up and ultimately finds a way to win.
Let us hope that it is not my sleepiness this early Australian morning with a loud bird squawking outside my window that makes me think that if you see Trump as someone like you, then you like fake tans and wear a toupee? A rather unsavoury look in my opinion.
Otherwise, we'll come to this discussion again in a few years when you will come to see that his determination to win is pointless as his mistakes begin to manifest. Until then, monsieur toupée...
They only averaged a few thousand viewers a day so they pulled it this summer.
If they still want to watch it, youtube has CNN, FOX, and BBC all streaming live for no cost as it is just someone sharing their view of the paid for show. Kind of like Morpheus was to music in it's hay day.
If they still want to watch it, youtube has CNN, FOX, and BBC all streaming live for no cost as it is just someone sharing their view of the paid for show.
If someone wants to watch the news then why would they want to watch Fox? Isn't it just angry people shouting?
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 07, 2017 at 11:41#1223120 likes
If someone wants to watch the news then why would they want to watch Fox? Isn't it just angry people shouting?
Because CNN is mind numbing, BBC isn't bad but doesn't always follow the same news stories to the depths that CNN or FOX would and FOX? When watching FOX you have to know when you are watching a report of the news or an opinion show that talks about the news, which is where most of the shouting and talking over each other happens.
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 07, 2017 at 12:00#1223250 likes
Last night was the first night of my Mother In law arriving at our ranch and the first dog fight with her dog.
Lovely
Do we get to place bets? Maybe some live streaming on youtube and you've got yourselves a business model.
No, Michael Vick, we don't get to place bets. However I am having to weigh the downside risk in my trying to break up a dog fight (which one should never do) with what the Vet bills will be vs what my medical bills will be. Right now? Separation is key....hmmm....that's not bad advice for this idea of snow birding at our ranch.
OK, so I have been invited by a trainer of mine for drink with him. I have been thinking he is gay all along. I am at risk of being totally mortified if it turns out my assumption was wrong. You don't want to know how weird I get when a younger, attractive guy approaches me.
Help me...
unenlightenedNovember 07, 2017 at 19:48#1224270 likes
Reply to TimeLine Guys like that should have to wear a burkha and be accompanied by their mother in public. If he fails to do so, he's clearly inviting whatever weirdness he provokes, and ought to compensate you for your suffering it.
I try so hard to be unpleasant, and you are still not satisfied. It is the cliched essence of womanhood to be insatiable, and this old man is unsurprised.
AkanthinosNovember 07, 2017 at 20:11#1224340 likes
I try so hard to be unpleasant, and you are still not satisfied. It is the cliched essence of womanhood to be insatiable, and this old man is unsurprised.
Indeed, your unpleasantness does not satiate the content of my apprenticeship to master the rather elusive masculine subconscious. I am no man-eater, however. I am just curious.
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 07, 2017 at 21:33#1224520 likes
Professional relationship up until now?
Does "train" you?
Will you have to encounter him again even if the date goes south?
Mmmm might not be worth the risk of temporary pleasure for a ....what was he again? Younger and attractive?
It is impossible for there to be any risk of temporary pleasure because I am not of that sort. What I am sick of is the shock of how, out of nowhere, someone confirms their affection towards me. I thought he was gay and that he was unresponsive and awkward because of personality.
This is why I find difficult to appreciate how people have accepted the idea that you can learn to become friends after intimacy; how does this pleasure precede a friendship? It's strange.
I don't care if it goes south and @Agustino the answer is yes. Ok, well, there you go. The answer must be another no.
It is impossible for there to be any risk of temporary pleasure because I am not of that sort. What I am sick of is the shock of how, out of nowhere, someone confirms their affection towards me.
Even if you are not of that sort, he may very well be as you suggest.
I say: Why put yourself in that position?
And can you take him if needed?
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 07, 2017 at 21:58#1224600 likes
Thanksgiving invites went out and the return is turning out just swell. So far both of my folks are coming (my only local family) and his Mother (my Mother in Law) who is snow birding less than 1/2 acre from the main ranch house and.......that's it so far...... unless his family gets on it, we are going to have appetizers and deserts! Screw the bird!
AkanthinosNovember 07, 2017 at 22:38#1224700 likes
It really is depressing that people here talk so much about sex. I mean really, are all philosophers frustrated perverts? Maybe I'm projecting my own concerns about it.
AkanthinosNovember 07, 2017 at 22:48#1224720 likes
It is impossible for there to be any risk of temporary pleasure because I am not of that sort. What I am sick of is the shock of how, out of nowhere, someone confirms their affection towards me. I thought he was gay and that he was unresponsive and awkward because of personality.
This is why I find difficult to appreciate how people have accepted the idea that you can learn to become friends after intimacy; how does this pleasure precede a friendship? It's strange.
I don't care if it goes south and Agustino the answer is yes. Ok, well, there you go. The answer must be another no.
Young mare, you must accept you're light years ahead of us old stallions even in your youth. If you want sophistication and savvy, chat with your friends over wine. If it is the endearing awkwardness of eternal juvenile efforts and antics, you will have stables of choices. Don't fight it or even begrudgly tolerate it. Embrace it. Such has been the case since you talked us into eating the apple.
Reply to Akanthinos It is not the libido that is the issue here. Girls who don't appreciate you likely have a libido, you just tell yourself otherwise. That is what arseholes do.
AkanthinosNovember 08, 2017 at 00:03#1224810 likes
It is not the libido that is the issue here. Girls who don't appreciate you likely have a libido, you just tell yourself otherwise. That is what arseholes do.
You clearly have very little reading comprehension. Your answer doesn't actually reply to anything I stated.
This is why I find difficult to appreciate how people have accepted the idea that you can learn to become friends after intimacy; how does this pleasure precede a friendship? It's strange.
When I was a young man, the normal way for two gay guys to begin a relationship was to have sex first. Of course sex didn't always lead to a relationship, just as having a relationship doesn't always lead to sex. If two people have good sex, it might be time to trade telephone numbers.
Young mare, you must accept you're light years ahead of us old stallions even in your youth. If you want sophistication and savvy, chat with your friends over wine. If it is the endearing awkwardness of eternal juvenile efforts and antics, you will have stables of choices. Don't fight it or even begrudgly tolerate it. Embrace it. Such has been the case since you talked us into eating the apple.
I tried to embrace the strange specimen that is man, but the awkwardness of the juvenile efforts and antics pulled me through a portal to such a deranged realm that it took me several years just to get over the question "why?" Why would anyone do that? And not wine or even savvy sophistication; just friendship first and surely that is not a strange thing? It prevents making any errors in judgement and the experience all the more enjoyable and honest. Waking up this morning to an awkward text message sent in the early hours of the morning is not my idea of mutual affection.
When I was a young man, the normal way for two gay guys to begin a relationship was to have sex first. Of course sex didn't always lead to a relationship, just as having a relationship doesn't always lead to sex. If two people have good sex, it might be time to trade telephone numbers.
I have not yet had sex and that is the problem here, I refuse to despite my attractiveness and it is certainly not that I am unwilling or uninterested, I am just sick of the bursts of out-of-the-blue spasmodic displays of affection and the refusal to get to know me as a friend first. My best friend is gay and he too has cautiously informed me of this reality in the gay community and it works in stark contrast to what I believe, which is that good sex is impossible with a mutual affection and admiration. It is just sex and that makes my ego sick because I am no object.
ArguingWAristotleTiffNovember 08, 2017 at 00:32#1224890 likes
And, just to be precise, I mentioned a libido which is compatible with mine... There's no absolute statement about how a girl should be hidden in there.
Stay tuned and try to read between the lines. The age range that is either frustrated or over indulging is vast and our experiences different.
I'll watch out for the signs. Although, to be honest, I kinda feel that some very retrograde reactions in the On Drugs thread kinda shows what you refer to. I guess that's what they mean by intersectionnality...
I'll watch out for the signs. Although, to be honest, I kinda feel that some very retrograde reactions in the On Drugs thread kinda shows what you refer to. I guess that's what they mean by intersectionnality...
My strength is with you to state the truth about yourself and your Mom's needs. I was on Father number 3 by age 8 so if you need someone to vent to, feel free to PM me. (L)
Reply to Akanthinos Oh great, not another creepy-crust. I am sure Cher, I mean Tiff would be a better option for you, if she could only turn back time.
Thank you for you concern, and out of concern for your own morale, since you seem to react to flirtatiousness the same way a face reacts to battery acid, I've been dating on and off the same girl for the last 2 years. She's a stripper, and the only girl I've ever had relations with who did not complain about my libido being so out of phase with hers.
You can think this silly or rubbish, but it isn't.
Reply to Akanthinos I don't think its rubbish. Each to their own is the very principle I follow and being brutally honest about who you actually are rather than following the herd. Despite my morals being completely different and perhaps bordering the strict, I respect you now more than I did a moment ago.
With enough compartmentalizing it has provided me a childhood that built character in me.
I agree, however there are trends where the likelihood of carrying the same mistakes over in adulthood are higher and I have been fervently cautious in analysing my decisions to avoid being surprised of any existential repetition. In saying that, power to you Miss Tiff (Y)
I have not yet had sex and that is the problem here, I refuse to despite my attractiveness and it is certainly not that I am unwilling or uninterested, I am just sick of the bursts of out-of-the-blue spasmodic displays of affection and the refusal to get to know me as a friend first.
This post is so uncharacteristically simplistic and unnaunced, the ulterior motive too transparent. "Men, hear me, I am a beautiful misunderstood virgin with a healthy libido. Befriend me and treasure awaits." An amateur attempt at best.
Now show me a elbow. That is exquisite subtlety befitting this group of sophomoric intellectuals that should elicit the gaga response you seek. We'll entertain you, but we're not Pavlovian dogs. Well, kinda sorta we are, but you get the gist.
Now show me a elbow. That is exquisite subtlety befitting this group of sophomoric intellectuals that should elicit the gaga response you seek. We'll entertain you, but we're not Pavlovian dogs. Well, kinda sorta we are, but you get the gist.
No elbow for you. I might show you navel if you answer the above.
Reply to Buxtebuddha You find indirect threats funny? I would have you know that there are many women who have battery acid thrown on their faces by psychopaths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_throwing
BuxtebuddhaNovember 08, 2017 at 02:10#1225310 likes
Reply to TimeLine I merely found his comparison amusing, so don't read into my emoticons too much. Your edginess and pomp lately has been cute, though, I'll give you that.
Reply to Akanthinos Obviously, but the comparison was disturbing to say the least. These women do get attacked for refusing to flirt with their eventual attackers.
I merely found his comparison amusing, so don't read into my emoticons to much. Your edginess and pomp lately has been cute, though, I'll give you that.
Yes, of course, next thing you know you find @Hanover' assumption amusing that all women must be a certain way and if not she is lying... so shut the fuck up and show an elbow. I am a woman and the only way I can get answers is through flirtatious attention seeking antics. Typical.
And I am not edgy!
AkanthinosNovember 08, 2017 at 02:28#1225390 likes
Ok, just so we are clear, my refering this had absolutely nothing to do with actual cases of anyone throwing acid in anyones face, for whatever reasons. It's just that I watched Let the right one in a couple of nights ago.
The only acid to face attack I'm aware of was of Yakuza's.
BuxtebuddhaNovember 08, 2017 at 02:31#1225420 likes
If it is true that you are receptive to men, are very attractive to men, but can't find any man, then you are probably not very nice to men. I mean had you told me you were really nice to men, but couldn't find a man, I'd have guessed you were ugly. Keeping it real is all, cuz I do likes me a belly button pic.
Yes, of course, next thing you know you find Hanover' assumption amusing that all women must be a certain way and if not she is lying...
To be fair, because I'm all about fairness, you sort of posited a certain social ineptitude shared by all men. So, to the extent I said all women are alike, you were owed that as old fashioned comeuppance. Quoting TimeLine
I am a woman and the only way I can get answers is through flirtatious attention seeking antics. Typical.
Change the words " the only" to "one" and you have correctly stated my position.
Reply to Hanover Hmm, so childhood trauma is not in question? Violent dad, fear of men? No, it is either attractiveness or ugly, nice or not-nice. Men who are assertive in the workplace are leaders, but women who are assertive are monsters. You ain't gonna get a belly button pic, dear Hanover, all you are going to get this:
It is just sex and that makes my ego sick because I am no object.
Two subjects who want to have sex, even if they are strangers, do not become objects to each other because of that. Sure, some subjects view others as objects. Sure, sometimes sex is just sex. However, regardless of how other subjects view you, you always remain a subject, rather than object. You have proved your subject nature by resisting casual sex. It is, however, possible to engage with others sexually and remaining a subject.
Suit yourself. If you don't want to have sex, don't. I'm only saying that a person who is a subject has executive agency to engage in sex to suit his or her own requirements.
Reply to TimeLine And that was to convince me I was wrong and that you are nice to men?
It might well be you were terribly traumatized and that your fear of men is entirely justified, and that offers a reasonable explanation for why you are not nice to men. I didn't say anything about the appropriateness of your behavior. I just said what it was. I wouldn't be more receptive to justified not niceness than I would be to unjustified not niceness. If you make me a shit sandwich because it's all you've got to give or if you make it to piss me off, either way, it tastes the same.
Two subjects who want to have sex, even if they are strangers, do not become objects to each other because of that. Sure, some subjects view others as objects. Sure, sometimes sex is just sex. However, regardless of how other subjects view you, you always remain a subject, rather than object. You have proved your subject nature by resisting casual sex. It is, however, possible to engage with others sexually and remaining a subject.
If the objective is only for the purpose of gaining sexual gratification for yourself, the other person is the object and there is no change in the morality of this decision just because they mutually have the same objective. A loveless relationship based on economy is the same. It is absolutely not true that I am the subject regardless of how others view me; I am always an object until someone attempts to befriend me, to learn more about who I am personally, the things I like, the things I don't like just the same as when I get to know some men and find that some parts of their personality I am and am not attracted to.
Suit yourself. If you don't want to have sex, don't. I'm only saying that a person who is a subject has executive agency to engage in sex to suit his or her own requirements.
My problem is that there always seems to be some justification that needs to be made for our choices, whether it is casual sex or the lack thereof. I choose this because what I find attractive is in friendship and the fact that my appearances are more appealing than the person that I am - do you know how many men have insulted me in real-life by thinking that I am dumb? - makes it hard for me.
I am always an object until someone attempts to befriend me, to learn more about who I am personally, the things I like, the things I don't like just the same as when I get to know some men I find that some parts of their personality I am and am not attracted to.
Holy Jeebus riding a raptor, now I can see how it would be hard to like men if I had that attitude.
And that was to convince me I was wrong and that you are nice to men?
It might well be you were terribly traumatized and that your fear of men is entirely justified, and that offers a reasonable explanation for why you are not nice to men. I didn't say anything about the appropriateness of your behavior. I just said what it was. I wouldn't be more receptive to justified not niceness than I would be to unjustified not niceness. If you make me a shit sandwich because it's all you've got to give or if you make it to piss me off, either way, it tastes the same.
The point is you can take your image of the standard of how a woman is to you and your comparison against all women for whether they do or do not fit that standard and shove it. I should not have to say that I am nice or not-nice or that I am attractive or not-attractive, who are you to question that or make me respond to that? And what, it is ok for you to call me a liar but if I respond to that I am "not nice"? I am consciously choosing not to be nice to you to challenge your attempted point.
What I say here is not what people know of me; they just see me as the really nice single girl and I get away with it because I dress well and blend in, but I say it here as an opportunity to articulate how I feel without the real-life ramifications. And the ramifications are clear enough here.
There is no permanency or religiosity in my choice; it was initiated by accident where I was forced into independence and isolation at a very young age until I formed my own moral system based on this experience.
?Akanthinos
Oh yes, there is always one on the sidelines cheering the mob
Because no disagreement is possible with this outlandish view of gender relations without it being attributed to mob mentality?
For crying out loud, your model doesn't even apply to how people interact with companion species, and you want to treat it as the absolute truth of how men and women relate? What a fucking joke.
I've been dating on and off the same girl for the last 2 years. She's a stripper, and the only girl I've ever had relations with who did not complain about my libido being so out of phase with hers.
Your model is not the model of how people interact with companion species. Each to their own. The only joke here is the bad smell hovering around poking randomly asinine comments.
AkanthinosNovember 08, 2017 at 06:24#1225850 likes
Your model is not the model of how people interact with companion species
I resent this. I essentially interact with V. in the same way I interact with my cats.
The point being, if I can meet someone's dog and treat him as a subject and not an object from the get go, then I'm sure I can do so with a girl. Even if I happen to want to do things with her.
The point being, if I can meet someone's dog and treat him as a subject and not an object from the get go, then I'm sure I can do so with a girl. Even if I happen to want to do things with her.
Dogs have four legs, women only have one, ergo women are not dogs.
Doesn't work. You can't apply the transitive property to possession (i.e. using the word "have"). You need to say "dogs are four-legged, women are one-legged, ergo women are not dogs" to have a sound argument.
Doesn't work. You can't apply the transitive property to possession (i.e. using the word "have"). You need to say "dogs are four-legged, women are one-legged, ergo women are not dogs" to have a sound argument.
Okay.
Dogs are four-legged, women are one-legged, ergo women do not have dogs.
Dogs have four legs, women only have one, ergo women are not dogs.
Waits for the anticipated objection that missing legs are no laughing matter, because Heather Mills and stuff...
Nah, most men are three-legged, which compensates for the loss. The only non-laughing matter I see in this post is that you are not like most men. Ergo, two-legged needs to be in there somewhere.
I agree with Posty McPosterFace above. You people are all obsessed with sex, have nothing better to talk about. Quite a useless activity that leaves you as empty-handed as you were before. If you want, we can talk about writing a book, starting a church group, starting a business, you know, something that actually changes the world for the better.
This post is so uncharacteristically simplistic and unnaunced, the ulterior motive too transparent. "Men, hear me, I am a beautiful misunderstood virgin with a healthy libido. Befriend me and treasure awaits." An amateur attempt at best.
I actually agree to some extent but I was reprimanded awhile ago for saying this :P
But TL has figured out something important, namely that the impossible object is always the one that elicits the most attraction. I'm not sure, but I would speculate that TL likes feeling men attracted to her and rejecting them, this allows her to feel power and control over them (don't hit me TL, I'm only being a good boy and speculating like a naive child who doesn't understand the adult world :D ).
If it is true that you are receptive to men, are very attractive to men, but can't find any man, then you are probably not very nice to men. I mean had you told me you were really nice to men, but couldn't find a man, I'd have guessed you were ugly. Keeping it real is all, cuz I do likes me a belly button pic.
That's not true, since most men are not worth the time ;) . You know, I always advise my clients to look for their ideal clients, not for any clients at all. Not everyone is a prospect, and not every prospect will be a quality lead.
Nah, most men are three-legged, which compensates for the loss. The only non-laughing matter I see in this post is that you are not like most men. Ergo, two-legged needs to be in there somewhere.
I agree with Posty McPosterFace above. You people are all obsessed with sex, have nothing better to talk about. Quite a useless activity that leaves you as empty-handed as you were before.
I didn't know that the possession of an extra head also confers greater intelligence upon the beneficiary
You don't need to know. Its evolutionary. We're in the 21st century man, 2,300 years. Eventually, men automatically think they know better. It doesn't matter what I am saying, apparently you know me better than I do.
Reply to Sapientia Oh, and here I was thinking you were referencing the name you gave to the door draft stopper that Aunty Bernice gave you for your birthday.
You don't need to know. Its evolutionary. We're in the 21st century man, 2,300 years. Eventually, men automatically think they know better. It doesn't matter what I am saying, apparently you know me better than I do.
@Wosret - you haven't posted for 6 days. You know what that means?! It means you're smoking weed, and should stop >:) Your Big Bro Agu is watching you!
I should not have to say that I am nice or not-nice or that I am attractive or not-attractive, who are you to question that or make me respond to that?
I am the great Hanover. That's who I am. I didn't say you weren't nice. I simply made the obvious comment that if you're nice to people, you'll attract them. I'd likely be more attractive to you if I were nicer, perhaps more considerate of your trauma, the pain produced while it was happening, the confusion produced soon thereafter, the fear that remains, and the realization that you realize it continues to impact negatively. Quoting TimeLine
And what, it is ok for you to call me a liar but if I respond to that I am "not nice"? I am consciously choosing not to be nice to you to challenge your attempted point.
Yeah, me questioning your veracity wasn't a bonding moment, but we all have our reasons, and you did convince me otherwise by opening up about your life. You stood before a group of largely introverted men and in fact presented yourself as a beautiful virgin in distress, seeking friendship and open to more. It looked attention seeking, and so I called it out. I am not sure I was wrong about what it was, but I do now believe it came more from a place of vulnerability and curiosity than manipulation, and so I was wrong in my accusatory tone and you were therefore right in your defensive response. I do find that offering reckless indictments is a catalyst to finding truth, so I'm not ready to abandon that from my quiver just yet. That tactic doesn't lead me to friendships, but more to having frienemies, where I straddle between adoration and detestation. But enough about me.
As to your other question: Should you first find a friend and fuck him silly in that order or first fuck him silly and see if he'll be your friend after that? My worldly experience tells me that if you've got a buddy, fucking him ends the buddihood 100% of the time.
One other thing, all I really meant about being nice is accepting guys for who they are. Reminding them that you are light years beyond them in emotional IQ does not build the foundation for the friendship you seek. They're just as scared, vulnerable, and friendship seeking as you, just with different limitations, and therefore similar in that they too need understanding and acceptance. Yeah, be nice. I should heal myself.
God damnit can I now get a navel pic. How much fucking game a playa gotta spit for a damn pic?
Reply to Agustino I don't touch sharks or lizards so that goes double for Hanover. No hands involved here. I'm just trying to save us 20 more pages of whining about a picture of a navel, which, when you think about it, is nothing more than a shrivelled umbilical cord.
I'm just trying to save us 20 more pages of whining about a picture of a navel, which, when you think about it, is nothing more than a shrivelled umbilical cord.
It's also a great place to hold Tequila while doing a body shot~ 8-)
Reply to TimeLine I agree that involuntary celibacy is a source of suffering for most people. I am reminded of the following story:
Criminal serving his sentence with monks pleads to be sent back to prison... because monastery life is too hard
A convicted criminal who was serving out his sentence in a monastery has escaped for the second time and asked to be sent back to prison because life was too tough.
Thief David Catalano, 31, was sent to a Santa Maria degli Angeli community run by Capuchin monks in Sicily last November.
But he found their austere lifetstyle too tough to handle and soon escaped. After a short while on the run he was caught by police and sent back.
On Monday he fled for the second time in six weeks, only to swiftly turn himself in at a police station and beg officers to send him back to jail in the nearby town of Nicosia.
He told the stunned policemen: 'Prison is better than being at that hostel run by monks.'
A police spokesman said: 'Catalano arrived out of the blue and said there was no way he could stay on with the monks.
'He said it was too tough and he wanted to go back to prison, so we happily obliged and he is now back behind bars serving the rest of his sentence.
'Life with the monks can be pretty tough - there are no mod cons and they are up early and go to bed early. There are no luxuries at the hostel and the monks run a very austere regime.'
The Santa Maria degli Angeli community is based in a monastery near Enna on the island of Sicily.
It has been run as a halfway house by the Capuchin friars for more than 12 years with around 60 prisoners accommodated there as they near the end of their sentences.
The Capuchin order broke from the Franciscans in the 16th century, saying the order had strayed from the tough regime of founder St Francis. They formed an offshoot which focused on living an austere monastic life.
The Capuchin are named after their distinctive pointed hoods and they believe in living a simple and austere life with neither monks nor their monasteries being allowed to own property.
The monks are expected to beg and rely on charity for all of their needs, never keeping more than a few days' worth of food at any given time.
Nobody at the Santa Maria community was available for comment.
It's fascinating to me how one's state of mind and what it's oriented toward can determine whether what one experiences is torture or contentment.
I am the great Hanover. That's who I am. I didn't say you weren't nice. I simply made the obvious comment that if you're nice to people, you'll attract them. I'd likely be more attractive to you if I were nicer, perhaps more considerate of your trauma, the pain produced while it was happening, the confusion produced soon thereafter, the fear that remains, and the realization that you realize it continues to impact negatively.
O, great Hanover, why be dishonest when the obvious reasons for your frustrated comments were because you realised I was inaccessible. Clearly, I am nice and pretty considering the subject-matter was about receiving a text message from an attractive man wanting to play tichy-touchy and while being open about my personal experiences is to consciously walk right into the possibility of being ridiculed, the overall curiosity stems from why men jump straight into wanting the tichy-touchy bit before wanting to get to know me as a friend. The only facts that you can get from that is that I have no male friends, which is true, and that clearly I do not like such objectification. Everything else that you said about being attractive or nice is nothing more than a reflection of who you are, which is, O great Hanover, a colossal pervert.
Yeah, me questioning your veracity wasn't a bonding moment, but we all have our reasons, and you did convince me otherwise by opening up about your life. I do find that offering reckless indictments is a catalyst to finding truth, so I'm not ready to abandon that from my quiver just yet. That tactic doesn't lead me to friendships, but more to having frienemies, where I straddle between adoration and detestation.
I wouldn't want you to be any other way despite you grossing me out 95% of the time and to be fair I do thoroughly enjoy the attention, otherwise why would I speak of it? But, me questioning your idiocy is the likely response and being feminine or "pretty" and "nice" does not mean that I wont bite your head off and eat it for breakfast. By the way, that tactic doesn't lead to frienemies either, thus you should expect that by offering reckless indictments in order to expose the truth, you will only be detested and nothing more, especially if the truth is not in your favour.
One other thing, all I really meant about being nice is accepting guys for who they are. Reminding them that you are light years beyond them in emotional IQ does not build the foundation for the friendship you seek. They're just as scared, vulnerable, and friendship seeking as you, just with different limitations, and therefore similar in that they too need understanding and acceptance. Yeah, be nice. I should heal myself.
Who they are is not as simple as this generalisation. If I want to have a sustained conversation about politics or psychology, why does my emotional IQ matter? I have been insulted with derogatory opinions about my intelligence and told I am things that I am not based on presumptions about who I am that I have every right to be angry about it. I should not pity men because they fail to see me and who I am by pretending to myself that they are 'scared and vulnerable' because that is just self-defeating gobbledegook. I am scared too. Why shouldn't they be understanding?
I agree that involuntary celibacy is a source of suffering for most people... It's fascinating to me how one's state of mind and what it's oriented toward can determine whether what one experiences is torture or contentment.
I think the torture for some people is because the quietness enables them to hear the past shadows that they are likely running from and why some people with anxiety always tend to want noise and movement in an attempt to silence the suffering. It ultimately verifies the importance of self-reflection, but I learnt that any permanent celibacy can also be a problem because we need to have others to point out our flaws and respond back to us. It is just ensuring that you have the right others or the right people in your life, and that is where I am at the moment.
Thus, it is not a source of suffering or a source of contentment, but rather a state of frustrated indifference. I had a difficult past that first required resolving and abstinence was they key to that resolution, but now that I am of healthy mind and body, I am seeking out the right people in my life and that means being highly selective; to pursue a relationship is only possible for me when genuine feelings of love are involved.
Some women have long ago learned that the key to being attractive is being inaccessible. The more inaccessible a woman is, the more she is perceived to be attractive. All this underlies the deceptive nature of sexual desire - it thirsts for what it cannot have.
Some women clearly do enjoy this power. Being attractive to them is the reward, and being attractive depends on rejecting men. It's a form of control over men. One could call it a narcissism - but I think the same phenomenon is at play as in the case of men. Women too chase that inaccessible object of sexual desire, whom they idealise to such an extent that he is nowhere to be found. Only that impossible ideal can satisfy.
And so we have the ample case of two beggars thinking that the other is a king or queen.
O, great Hanover, why be dishonest when the obvious reasons for your frustrated comments were because you realised I was inaccessible
I've long realized your inaccessibility based upon your age, your location, I'm otherwise attached, and the fact I'm never fully convinced the person I'm talking to on the internet is anything close to that portrayed.
Clearly, I am nice and pretty considering the subject-matter was about receiving a text message from an attractive man wanting to play tichy-touchy and while being open about my personal experiences is to consciously walk right into the possibility of being ridiculed, the overall curiosity stems from why men jump straight into wanting the tichy-touchy bit before wanting to get to know me as a friend.
You might be nice and pretty, but that a guy wants to have sex with you in spite of recognizing the attempt might be fraught with rejection hardly serves as evidence of it. That's sort of what guys do. Quoting TimeLine
Everything else that you said about being attractive or nice is nothing more than a reflection of who you are, which is, O great Hanover, a colossal pervert.
Again, my comments about men simply wanting positive feedback (niceness) is true and is not evidence of my colossal perversion. That evidence lies in many other places, but not here. At any rate, why seek evidence when you could easily gain an admission? Quoting TimeLine
I wouldn't want you to be any other way despite you grossing me out 95% of the time and to be fair I do thoroughly enjoy the attention, otherwise why would I speak of it?
I will hold onto that 5% for dear life. It's my reason for being. Quoting TimeLine
But, me questioning your idiocy is the likely response and being feminine or "pretty" and "nice" does not mean that I wont bite your head off and eat it for breakfast.
I'm not an idiot. I'm clever, just perverse and not entirely tactful. Please correctly insult me. It's really tiring to have to correct your insults for you.Quoting TimeLine
By the way, that tactic doesn't lead to frienemies either, thus you should expect that by offering reckless indictments in order to expose the truth, you will only be detested and nothing more, especially if the truth is not in your favour.
Your assessment is wrong. You are my frenemy. Despite all my other shortcomings, the one thing I know for certain is that I'm never wrong.Quoting TimeLine
I have been insulted with derogatory opinions about my intelligence and told I am things that I am not based on presumptions about who I am that I have every right to be angry about it.
Who cares? You are smart, so those who call you stupid are simply wrong. Why waste your time feeling insulted. I don't. If I did, I'd have long ago curled up in the fetal position and stopped posting here. People here are prickly motherfuckers, present company included. This isn't a recipe exchange website.
Some women have long ago learned that the key to being attractive is being inaccessible. The more inaccessible a woman is, the more she is perceived to be attractive. All this underlies the deceptive nature of sexual desire - it thirsts for what it cannot have.
Jesus Christ. At least my bullshit is absurd nonsense, not the ramblings of a wanna be sage.
If you want. Could the book be about sex? I'm doing my Analytical Philosophy course right now and wondering how goddamn awfully boring Gottlob's sex life must have been.
Yeah, but there's a disadvantage there - how will you build a large family with a stripper? Without a good woman, your dynasty will be forgotten.
Well, you could build a large family with a stripper, the same way you build a large family with any girl who isn't working in the sex trade. But to be honest, you'd have to be absolutely insane to want to start a family with V. I fully expect she'd smother her own child within an hour of being left alone with him. Plus she's got tattoes over a good 50% of her body, and getting more every month. She would stab me with a butcher knife before she would let herself 'be disfigured' (her terms, no mine) by pregnancy.
Plus, our dynasties will be forgotten anyhow. And there's a fair chance that Ditta Von Tease will be better remembered than either you or me.
If you want. Could the book be about sex? I'm doing my Analytical Philosophy course right now and wondering how goddamn awfully boring Gottlob's sex life must have been.
Probably it would be a useless book. Who would read a book about sex? (apart from teenagers who are just learning about it and Hanover?)
Well, you could build a large family with a stripper, the same way you build a large family with any girl who isn't working in the sex trade. But to be honest, you'd have to be absolutely insane to want to start a family with V.
Riiiight, so you could build it but at the same time you really can't :s
Plus she's got tattoes over a good 50% of her body, and getting more every month. She would stab me with a butcher knife before she would let herself 'be disfigured' (her terms, no mine) by pregnancy.
Right, to me, she sounds like a mentally unstable person who is a danger even to be around, much less do anything with.
Plus, our dynasties will be forgotten anyhow. And there's a fair chance that Ditta Von Tease will be better remembered than either you or me.
Sure, but for awhile we will be kings, and we will go down in history as having done something good for our fellow men, something that either inspired them, taught them something or helped them.
Ditta has little chance to be remembered granted that I don't even know who that is to begin with.
AkanthinosNovember 08, 2017 at 20:10#1227460 likes
Some women have long ago learned that the key to being attractive is being inaccessible. The more inaccessible a woman is, the more she is perceived to be attractive. All this underlies the deceptive nature of sexual desire - it thirsts for what it cannot have.
Maybe they are inaccessible and that just pisses you off and by inaccessible it means that they do not want you or like you. Call that power? Yes, indeed, it is empowerment. You moron.
Right, to me, she sounds like a mentally unstable person who is a danger even to be around, much less do anything with.
You say this because you don't enjoy the wonders of crazy. It's not for the faint of heart to be sure, but don't summarily dismiss those who should be summarily dismissed. And by "should," I mean those who every ounce of good sense tells you to run away from.
There are ordinary folks and there are heroes, like police officers, firemen, soldiers, and all sorts of people who make up the backbone of our society. What makes them heroic is that when ordinary folks flee the flames, the bullets, and the enemies, they move toward them, unwavering, fearless, knowing that only they form the barrier between civilization and chaos.
So, when you run from those crazy women with the snakes slithering out of their ears, it's people like me and perhaps Akanthinos who run toward them, heroically, fearlessly, and with the full knowledge we might be harmed, but fully motivated by the higher good that will come from engaging crazy in all its explosive glory.
You, my friend, are a knower of nothing. Until you have someone spending hours frantically pacing on your porch while you pretend not to be home, you just can't understand true joy.
You are every woman's dream come true, the guy who refuses to pursue them. How's that working for you, anti-Romeo?
I have had my fair number of women interested in me, and also a few girlfriends. But you have to understand, especially at this point in my life, I am totally uninterested in pursuing a relationship. I would make a woman miserable, simply because I wouldn't give her the time she deserves. I have no patience or time for it at the moment. It's the sort of time commitment and entanglement that I can't currently make. And I have refused women in the past 2-3 years. There are sacrifices to be made to have a good relationship.
What makes them heroic is that when ordinary folks flee the flames, the bullets, and the enemies, they move toward them, unwavering, fearless, knowing that only they form the barrier between civilization and chaos.
So, when you run from those crazy women with the snakes slithering out of their ears, it's people like me and perhaps Akanthinos who run toward them, heroically, fearlessly, and with the full knowledge we might be harmed, but fully motivated by the higher good that will come from engaging crazy in all its explosive glory.
Sure, but I don't see what's the higher good? Like what is actually your purpose for doing that? :s
You, my friend, are a knower of nothing. Until you have someone spending hours frantically pacing on your porch while you pretend not to be home, you just can't understand true joy.
Oh dear, I did have something similar with my high school girlfriend, and it wasn't good, trust me. I had to wonder why I ever got involved in it at some point >:O
I've long realized your inaccessibility based upon your age, your location, I'm otherwise attached, and the fact I'm never fully convinced the person I'm talking to on the internet is anything close to that portrayed.
There was quite a lot of opportunity for thy wit to be utilised with what I said, I almost handed it to you on a silver platter, but instead I woke up to this nonsense. So, when you say I will win this battle of wits, well, as said by Bruce Willis in the Last Boys Scout: "Nobody likes you. Everybody hates you. You lose."
You might be nice and pretty, but that a guy wants to have sex with you in spite of recognizing the attempt might be fraught with rejection hardly serves as evidence of it. That's sort of what guys do.
Who cares? You are smart, so those who call you stupid are simply wrong. Why waste your time feeling insulted. I don't. If I did, I'd have long ago curled up in the fetal position and stopped posting here. People here are prickly motherfuckers, present company included. This isn't a recipe exchange website.
I never waste my time feeling insulted, it is more like "dang it, back to square one" as I move on pretty quickly. I like prickly. I'm prickly. Actually, no, I am quite vigilant about shaving my legs. And moisturising. My legs look great in dresses. Here, for the sake of your 5% efforts I will for you expand those red wedding shoes.
BuxtebuddhaNovember 08, 2017 at 21:57#1227840 likes
There was quite a lot of opportunity for thy wit to be utilised with what I said, I almost handed it to you on a silver platter, but instead I woke up to this nonsense. So, when you say I will win this battle of wits, well, as said by Bruce Willis in the Last Boys Scout: "Nobody likes you. Everybody hates you. You lose."
Everyone hates me, true, but that doesn't make me a loser. For example, I could become President. I know how to be loved, I just refuse to do it. It requires that I be flirty, silly and that I act sort of dumb. I'm just not that sort of girl though, so DEAL with it. Bam! A backatcha that's got to sting.Quoting TimeLine
I'm writing this down. Lesson #1. Wait, hang on:
Ahhh, you jest in the midst of genius, overlooking a gem you'd have to spend hours in the boy's locker room trying to learn (yes, with the erotic smell of male genitalia rising with the steam from the tiles (think day old salami sandwich)). Just trying to maintain the 95/5 gross-out ratio.
When a guy speaks about guys, you should listen, lest you don't give a fuck about guys, in which case you will be without a man, and, as you know the word wo-man, means "with man" quite literally. Do you really want to be referred to as a wo-out-man? It sounds so very sad. I'd cry, but I am thinking about sex and French fries right now, so I'm a bit diverted.Quoting TimeLine
My dear frienemy. (L) Your passionate vulnerability suddenly made me all mushy inside.
Sex and French fries still. Sorry, got nothing for a while.Quoting TimeLine
I like prickly. I'm prickly. Actually, no, I am quite vigilant about shaving my legs. And moisturising. My legs look great in dresses. Here, for the sake of your 5% efforts I will for you expand those red wedding shoes.
Reply to Akanthinos It might not be funny because it suggests I was once your girlfriend. Did you feel something poking you in the belly? If so, maybe...
Ladies and gentleman, I give you "Hanover in Khaki with Socked Feet."
I previously had named this photo "Twerking that Ass!," but felt it made no sense, so I changed it up.
AkanthinosNovember 09, 2017 at 04:14#1228280 likes
When a guy speaks about guys, you should listen, lest you don't give a fuck about guys, in which case you will be without a man, and, as you know the word wo-man, means "with man" quite literally. Do you really want to be referred to as a wo-out-man?
I would rather be a wo-out-man then a woe-unto-man, as in, woe unto the man who annoys TimeLine and you are... yeah, no, I got nothing. It was too good. But, alas, as I am on my one-week holiday at home doing absolutely nothing but writing and talking to you, a grandpa who wears chinos and probably a woollen vest with a cravat perfumed by a musty scent of an old cupboard, and so as a gift I give you "TimeLine's Sofa Is Better Than Hanovers".
I am not a lawyer, but I think I can negotiate this marriage agreement between two lawyers so we don't have to go through another 2000 back-and-forth posts of you two sharing parts of your bodies bit by bit before the marriage ceremony >:O
I would rather be a wo-out-man then a woe-unto-man, as in, woe unto the man who annoys TimeLine and you are... yeah, no, I got nothing.
This is not annoyance you feel, but the frustration of not being close enough to Hanover, to hold his elbow, to caress his knee, and to otherwise soothe his aging joints. I feel that longing myself sometimes, and I am him, if that makes any sense at all, and I'm sure it doesn't. But really, does love ever make sense? And when I say "love," I don't use it to describe the conduct that occurs in the typical sweat drenched way after too many beers in some random stairwell sort of way, but real love, where people text one another "Good morning" after first having written "Good morning sunshine," but having edited it because it felt too risky. That's real love. That's when you know it's for realz, big city sophisticated love with a dangling z. Quoting TimeLine
But, alas, as I am on my one-week holiday at home doing absolutely nothing but writing and talking to you, a grandpa who wears chinos and probably a woollen vest with a cravat perfumed by a musty scent of an old cupboard, and so as a gift I give you "TimeLine's Sofa Is Better Than Hanovers".
You have described my scent almost perfectly other than pointing out the massive (and I mean huuuuge in a Trumpian sort of way) hints of day old salami sandwich.
What is that scent I detect emanating from you and your thrift store couch? I shall call it "Eau de 12 cats" with a not so subtle hint of day old salami sandwich. Are you sure you've been really doing nothing this holiday. It smells to me like you've been getting busy. 96/4 yet?
This is not annoyance you feel, but the frustration of not being close enough to Hanover, to hold his elbow, to caress his knee, and to otherwise soothe his aging joints.
I am not your nurse who will administer anti-inflammatory medication to sooth your arthritis, and the annoyance I feel is due to the several hours of having to listen to you clean your dentures with your tongue after eating the last of the vanilla slice.
And when I say "love," I don't use it to describe the conduct that occurs in the typical sweat drenched way after too many beers in some random stairwell sort of way, but real love, where people text one another "Good morning" after first having written "Good morning sunshine," but having edited it because it felt too risky. That's real love.
It is indeed true, proof even, that being nervous and afraid to say and do the wrong thing to someone is a sign of true love, but sending yourself text messages is somewhat subclinical, no? You are doing it again, like last time when you sent yourself a birthday card and when the postman delivered it to your working-class home reminiscent of the industrial revolution, you actually became overjoyed and surprised at how special you felt that someone was thinking of you.
What is that scent I detect emanating from you and your thrift store couch? I shall call it "Eau de 12 cats"
It's better than your "Eau de chimney sweep" and please don't start singing You've Got To Pick-A-Pocket Or Two as you do some silly little dance while playing with your double-up suspenders.
This is all wrong. What about all those chance encounters, the whole accidentally bumping into each other on different threads and pretending not to be flattered, those serendipitous moments of happenstance and late-night conversations where we tell one another just about anything and everything as we whisper little humorous jokes and giggle like two teenagers. Surely, the plot must be thickened!
What the heck. We'll do it your way. That's why you're the star, baby! Now can someone tell the runner that Hanny needs a new pair of dentures? And make them snappy!
Can Timey and Hanny do a version of Anchorman? Something like this?
Brian Fantana: I think I was in love once.
Ron Burgundy: Really? What was her name?
Brian Fantana: I don’t remember.
Ron Burgundy: That’s not a good start, but keep going.
Brian Fantana: She was Brazilian, or Chinese, or something weird. I met her in the bathroom of a K-Mart and we made out for hours. Then we parted ways, never to see each other again.
Ron Burgundy: I’m pretty sure that’s not love.
Brian Fantana: Damn it.
I am not your nurse who will administer anti-inflammatory medication to sooth your arthritis, and the annoyance I feel is due to the several hours of having to listen to you clean your dentures with your tongue after eating the last of the vanilla slice.
It is somewhat frightening that you were able to decipher from my comments that I was playing out a fairly involved nurse scene in my head as we were speaking. Quoting TimeLine
It is indeed true, proof even, that being nervous and afraid to say and do the wrong thing to someone is a sign of true love, but sending yourself text messages is somewhat subclinical, no?
It might also be argued that lack of concern for how you present is a better sign of love, like when a loving married couple no longer closes the bathroom door when defecating. 99/1, I get it, but just wait for the next degenerate comment. I've got a doozy. Quoting TimeLine
You are doing it again, like last time when you sent yourself a birthday card and when the postman delivered it to your working-class home reminiscent of the industrial revolution, you actually became overjoyed and surprised at how special you felt that someone was thinking of you.
Our home in Lancasterburghshire, overlooking the River Habderbregh, that burned uncontrollably throughout the Spring of 71, from the waste runoff from the tire burning plant, where the homeless roasted their rats on spits made from discarded radiators, where the young Hanover slaughtered a man for smiling too long, leaving him in juvenile hall from toddler until 12, where he impregnated a guard and was suddenly released, sure, he was in need of loving arms. The best he could do was send himself birthday cards and pretend to be surprised. So, yeah, hate me, ridicule me, whatever. Few have had it so hard. Like you'd have done better.
It's better than your "Eau de chimney sweep" and please don't start singing You've Got To Pick-A-Pocket Or Two as you do some silly little dance while playing with your double-up suspenders.
This is clever actually, and I fully get your euphemism when you say "chimney sweep," obviously referring to an enema, where the chimney represents the colon and the sweep the warm water loosening the various particles of morning breakfast. I'm a bit surprised a lady like yourself would go there, but you did, and I think we're all the worse for it. Please, stop being so disgusting.
I have had my fair number of women interested in me, and also a few girlfriends. But you have to understand, especially at this point in my life, I am totally uninterested in pursuing a relationship. I would make a woman miserable, simply because I wouldn't give her the time she deserves. I have no patience or time for it at the moment. It's the sort of time commitment and entanglement that I can't currently make. And I have refused women in the past 2-3 years. There are sacrifices to be made to have a good relationship.
(Y)
It's unfortunate that many people don't view relationships in this and similar ways. I've found that people get in and out of relationships when they've not the desire or mental fortitude to persevere and manage.
However, do be careful. You may say no to the woman that's actually worth all the time in your world.
BuxtebuddhaNovember 09, 2017 at 22:21#1229710 likes
Reply to ProbablyTrue Me, TL, and Agu used to be the ones in a threesome. Now, I suppose it's TL, Agu, and Hanover. Aw well.
AkanthinosNovember 09, 2017 at 22:34#1229740 likes
I just got an A in my first Analytical Philosophy essay.
I am euphoria. (L)
BuxtebuddhaNovember 09, 2017 at 22:42#1229780 likes
Reply to Akanthinos Grats dude/dudette, that's better than half the philosophers on this forum, :-*
AkanthinosNovember 09, 2017 at 22:44#1229790 likes
Reply to Buxtebuddha Thanks. I was super stressed, considering it was pretty much my first essay written in 2-3 years... So yeah. :)
BuxtebuddhaNovember 09, 2017 at 22:46#1229800 likes
How'd you manage 2-3 years? You take a break in the middle?
AkanthinosNovember 09, 2017 at 22:54#1229820 likes
Reply to Buxtebuddha Yes. As exposed in the On drugs thread, I am "sadly" forced to be self-reliant when it comes to paying for my education. So I had to take a pause and make my previous degree economically more profitable before continuing my current one. Didn't expect it to take 3 years tho.
BuxtebuddhaNovember 09, 2017 at 23:05#1229870 likes
Yes. As exposed in the On drugs thread, I am "sadly" forced to be self-reliant when it comes to paying for my education. So I had to take a pause and make my previous degree economically more profitable before continuing my current one. Didn't expect it to take 3 years tho.
And no debt?
AkanthinosNovember 09, 2017 at 23:08#1229890 likes
Some debts. I'd be hard to get to 33 in this day and age without some. But the 3 years of full-time work means that even now that I'm doing less hours at work, I'm still capable of living well, putting some money aside, paying my university and paying back my debts. Slowly, but still...
How is being Dutch going for you, by the way? I see you have upgraded your technology as you have been writing a little better. I'm curious to know what you upgraded to from the MS-DOS 3.3 and 56K modem?
but I learnt that any permanent celibacy can also be a problem because we need to have others to point out our flaws and respond back to us. It is just ensuring that you have the right others or the right people in your life, and that is where I am at the moment.
And these people can't be friends? They must be romantic partners as well?
And these people can't be friends? They must be romantic partners as well?
No, not at all, but my point was that one cannot be romantic and intimate without first being friends, because friendship enables one access to empathy, to actually care for someone other than yourself and such moral consciousness is thus learning or being capable of giving love genuinely. To become romantic following this is, in my opinion, a genuine and natural process because you come to learn whether or not you are compatible with another, whether you admire them for who they are and so your choice is more informed rather than instinctual and sexual. I cannot, for the life of me, become intimate with anyone without forming this initial bond because becoming intimate with someone is a very personal thing for me. If I skip that aspect or go backwards - becoming intimate with someone and then learn who they are afterwards - only leads to an increased possibility of a breakdown; I would hate to wake up beside someone who has no sense of humour or is a person who follows the crowd and cares about what other people think, two things that are very important to me.
I am not willing to try and change anyone. I just want them to be who they are and for me to like it and vice versa so that I can enjoy them for however long we are together and not struggle painfully as I deal with them, except for sporadic moments in between that keep the relationship going. The problem I am experiencing is that men just skip this part and I try to form a friendship first but they are just too overwhelming for me.
Me, TL, and Agu used to be the ones in a threesome. Now, I suppose it's TL, Agu, and Hanover. Aw well.
O, those were the days when it was just you and I. The passion. The intrigue. The debauchery. Then we produced our love child and named him Wendy, but he got all rebellious and changed his name to Agu after we split because you cheated on me with Baden. Now things have really become bad as Agu and Hanover both vie for my attention. I just want things to be like the old days.
O, those were the days when it was just you and I. The passion. The intrigue. The debauchery. Then we produced our love child and named him Wendy, but he got all rebellious and changed his name to Agu after we split because you cheated on me with Baden. Now things have really become bad as Agu and Hanover both vie for my attention. I just want things to be like the old days.
The old days where I took people around here too seriously? Hmm, no.
Yeah, it's a special inside one, that you wouldn't understand! You just don't grasp the significance of it to our special relationship that we more than share, but are privileged by -- a privilege we refuse to check!
Reply to Wosret I don't like the sound of probably... :-! As I said, it may have been a subconjunctival hemorrhage which heals itself, but still, to not know the cause of something would drive me insane. I'm a bit like that. When I see a blackhead on someone I just want it out.
Yes! It is almost an absolute must but in saying that how you are romantic is not descriptive; so that rubbish people do with giving each other flowers and chocolates or celebrating anniversaries, none of which I appreciate at all, well maybe except flowers, pink ones in particular, but that is because I grow flowers and love the smell of flowers. But, I digress. The point is that once you are in an intimate relationship, an expression of how you know the person you love by showing them is a beautiful thing. Without it, it would be rather clinical, no?
Reply to TimeLine Forgive me, but I still don't see a reason. Why should one become romantically engaged with someone, as opposed to just remaining friends? What does romantic love, whatever it is, add to friendship that makes it superior to the latter? To be blunt, I don't think it adds much of anything, save sexual intimacy. Besides this, I wouldn't know how to distinguish the two. I have seen Agustino and others try to argue that sex in a healthy relationship (i.e. among friends) is this great, beautiful, mysterious thing, but I don't see it. All I see is the satisfaction of an instinct.
I suppose I'm open to the charge that friendship is the satisfaction of an instinct as well, but if so, I think it's less clear what that instinct is. Moreover, the question is whether one ought to become romantically engaged with someone. Answering that it's "natural" to do so is to commit the naturalistic fallacy.
Forgive me, but I still don't see a reason. Why should one become romantically engaged with someone, as opposed to just remaining friends? What does romantic love, whatever it is, add to friendship that makes it superior to the latter? To be blunt, I don't think it adds much of anything, save sexual intimacy. Besides this, I wouldn't know how to distinguish the two. I have seen Agustino and others try to argue that sex in a healthy relationship (i.e. among friends) is this great, beautiful, mysterious thing, but I don't see it. All I see is the satisfaction of an instinct.
Sexual intimacy is one of a number of factors that is required for a successful romantic engagement; friendship is one such factor, as is economy, genuine honesty and admiration etc. If you want to remain friends with someone, then remain friends and there is no obligation, just as you may form a business relationship based on economy. Friendship enables the ability to give love or be empathetic as well as honest. Your friend tells you their secrets, they trust you, they laugh with you, they have fun with you, they care for your well being and want what is best for you and they hurt when you hurt. It is where honesty and love are formed and we develop an understanding of what is genuine and real.
Most people skip friendship and are attracted to and approach only who they sexually desire, expecting that afterwards they may get to know them. Instead, what happens is that they form a bond based on the satisfaction of an instinct and then deal with any differences later, trying to change them to become what they would prefer or eventually just cheating or breaking up. The worst is when they play games (I hate this the most) and I have seen men lying to their girlfriends as a way to pretend that they are being honest and women using emotional manipulation to keep relationships going etc. That is because they are not friends and if they weren't sexually intimate they would probably not be friends, probably not even like each other at all. All those factors need to work in unison - friendship, sexual intimacy, economy, genuine honesty, admiration etc - and any breakdown of one or more of those factors strains the continuity of the relationship.
People marry for looks or appearances, others for cultural reasons or restrictions, and even more because of loneliness and wanting a companion. Most are not initiated by forming a bond through friendship and often other reasons usually compel. If, however, two people form that bond, friendship becomes the foundation that carries the mutual affection even if other factors breakdown (so, say, you are no longer sexually attracted to your partner) that even if they divorce, they still carry the same mutual affection and so it becomes 'forever' so to speak, that they still desire the other to be happy, to be safe and well looked after despite no longer being together. Only friendship can do that and so marriage based on this really is 'forever' despite it not actually being forever.
When you are attracted to someone sexually - and it happens - but they are also your friend, someone you care about and you want to make happy, someone you admire and love having around, why would that be a bad thing?
I suppose I'm open to the charge that friendship is the satisfaction of an instinct as well, but if so, I think it's less clear what that instinct is. Moreover, the question is whether one ought to become romantically engaged with someone. Answering that it's "natural" to do so is to commit the naturalistic fallacy.
I think you need to re-consider the word 'instinct' - as said by Aquinas, "Love takes up where knowledge leaves off." If you take a psychological approach, the structure of our personality and psyche is made up of this evolutionary/instinctual (the Id), your relationship with the external world (the ego) and the values or moral foundation (the superego) we attempt to incorporate to manage the relationship between the instinctual and the external world. Our moral values challenge our instinctual and we learn to tell ourselves that certain behaviours are wrong; we are also taught moral values by others and our relationships with them.
An authentic friendship is not instinctual, but rather superlative of our moral foundations incorporated with our ego or our personality and response to the external world. The instinctual is blind, aggressive, biological and therein no reason or logic exists. Friendship enables us to experience conscience, to mirror ourselves and form our behavioural attitudes but our ego identifies with things that are pleasurable too and so we run the risk of making friends with wrong people in order to obtain pleasure. So, if we approach friendships as we should romantic engagements with our superego, we can find the right people who are morally worthy and hold similar values (the right people) and thus reason rather than instinct prevails.
No one ought to become romantically engaged and I do not see the necessity of saying that intimacy is natural (as mentioned, I have yet to be intimate myself) but I do believe that reason is just as pleasurable as instinct and if it is approached correctly, there is nothing wrong with pleasure. Reason allows us to consciously experience pleasure and that is something our instincts do not permit.
However, do be careful. You may say no to the woman that's actually worth all the time in your world.
There's always that risk. But then, pursuing the woman that is worth it, is also risky. It can stop you from doing the useful work you could do in the world, for your God, your church, other people, etc. As I said, relationships take a lot of time. Women (in a relationship) feel alone if you don't give them enough time. That is why I say work while you're young and strong, you can marry later - but the most productive years of your life are when you're young. That's the time you should be pursuing the greater good you can do in the world and not wasting time with partying, chasing women, etc.
Which is the bigger regret? To be with the woman you love and have failed to give anything to the world? Or to give a lot to the world but be alone? Children are not only physical children - all the traces you leave behind in the world through your impact are your children. If you successfully add even a single leaf to the tree of knowledge, you've made a lasting mark for mankind.
Hence, to answer it with, "Yes!", or, "No one ought to become romantically engaged", would be incorrect.
Why not just say it to me? Anyway, I initially got confused between romance as in being romantic, with what he was referring to, as in intimate relationship. The former was the Yes! and the latter was the 'there is no ought'.
Anyway, I initially got confused between romance as in being romantic, with what he was referring to, as in intimate relationship. The former was the Yes! and the latter was the 'there is no ought'.
And both are wrong. There's no simple "yes" or "no" answer, and there is an "ought", but it's relative.
And both are wrong. There's no simple "yes" or "no" answer, and there is an "ought", but it's relative.
That doesn't make sense, though. Are you saying that we ought to pursue an intimate relationship but how this intimacy or romance is applied is relative? The latter, yes, but no one should be obligated to pursue anything if they choose not to; there is asexuality as much as there is bisexuality, for instance.
Just happened to be reading some relevant Nietzsche (The Gay Science).
"Sexual love, however, is what most dearly reveals itself as a craving for new property: the lover wants unconditional and sole possession of the longed-for person; he wants a power over her soul as unconditional as his power over her body; he wants to be the only beloved, to live and to rule in the other soul as that which is supreme and most desirable. If one considers that this means excluding the whole world from a precious good, from joy and enjoyment; if one considers that the lover aims at the impoverishment and deprivation of all the competitors and would like to become the dragon guarding his golden hoard as the most inconsiderate and selfish of all 'conquerors' and exploiters; if one considers, finally, that to the lover himself the rest of the world appears indifferent, pale, and worthless and that he is prepared to make any sacrifice, upset any order, subordinate any other interest; then one is indeed amazed that this wild greed and injustice of sexual love has been as glorified and deified as it has in all ages - yes, that this love has furnished the concept of love as the opposite of egoism when it may in fact be the most candid expression of egoism. Here is it evidently the have-nots and the yearning ones who have formed linguistic usage - there have probably always been too many of them.
Those who were granted much possession and satiety in this area must occasionally have made some casual remark about 'the raging demon', as did that most charming and beloved of all Athenians, Sophocles: but Eros always laughed at such blasphemers; they were always precisely his greatest darlings. Here and there on earth there is probably a kind of continuation of love in which this greedy desire of two people for each other gives way to a new desire and greed, a shared higher thirst for an ideal above them. But who knows such love? Who has experienced it? It's true name is friendship."
Sexual love, however, is what most dearly reveals itself as a craving for new property: the lover wants unconditional and sole possession of the longed-for person; he wants a power over her soul as unconditional as his power over her body; he wants to be the only beloved, to live and to rule in the other soul as that which is supreme and most desirable.
But isn't this to be admired to a certain extent? What great conqueror would not give up his empire if only he could possess someone - even a single person's heart - forever?
Here and there on earth there is probably a kind of continuation of love in which this greedy desire of two people for each other gives way to a new desire and greed, a shared higher thirst for an ideal above them. But who knows such love? Who has experienced it? It's true name is friendship."
Erich Fromm refers to this friendship as a love for all human beings that lacks an exclusivity: "If a person loves only one other person and is indifferent to all others, his love is not love but a symbiotic attachment, or an enlarged egotism."
A person who has not been completely alienated, who has remained sensitive and able to feel, who has not lost the sense of dignity, who is not yet "for sale", who can still suffer over the suffering of others, who has not acquired fully the having mode of existence - briefly, a person who has remained a person and not become a thing - cannot help feeling lonely, powerless, isolated in present-day society. He cannot help doubting himself and his own convictions, if not his sanity. He cannot help suffering, even though he can experience moments of joy and clarity that are absent in the life of his "normal" contemporaries. Not rarely will he suffer from neurosis that results from the situation of a sane man living in an insane society, rather than that of the more conventional neurosis of a sick man trying to adapt himself to a sick society. In the process of going further in his analysis, i.e. of growing to greater independence and productivity, his neurotic symptoms will cure themselves.”
The correct union between two people are two independent people who are not subject to any authority, have overcome this adaptation to a sick society and learnt the following:
“Infantile love follows the principle: "I love because I am loved."
Mature love follows the principle: "I am loved because I love."
Immature love says: "I love you because I need you."
Mature love says: "I need you because I love you.”
Not from the perspective presented by Nietzsche, which is sexual love as a form of greedy and selfish possession. Hardly to be admired more than a conqueror submitting his subjects to slavery. But Nietzsche's tactic is provocative hyperbole. He omits the element of surrender here.
Not from the perspective presented by Nietzsche, which is sexual love as a form of greedy and selfish possession. Hardly to be admired more than a conqueror submitting his subjects to slavery.
It's not the same thing. The erotic conqueror wants the other to WANT them, not just to be possessed by them. Possession can be achieved by force - at least physical possession. But possession of one's heart cannot.
Comments (61561)
:-O Now I'm just confused...
Or should I say...vague or unclear sarcasm.
'bout what?
Touche >:)
About my screen name :-O
Yes, then he could cook the no food that he has in the fridge, or buy some food to cook with the no money that he has.
Lol, oh I get it. It's not necessarily true in reverse, you have to be noble to be a lady, but being noble doesn't necessarily mean one is a lady.
That is some spaghetti grammar right there.
No you don't. You just need [s]lady parts[/s] to self-identify as a lady.
Oh my, thank th' Loorddd
[wait...]
Or even better, find a woman to do the cooking.
"Lady" is an honorific.
That's what I tell her when she isn't cooking.
No, no. You just need to [s]self-identify[/s] make an outrage, to be a lday/man....
I self-identify as honoured.
Ironically, that's pretty common.
Word up, !
I see. So all he needs to do is steal a few ingredients, or prostitute himself to earn the money to buy a few ingredients.
How's he going to get the seeds with no money?
Vegetables don't grow on trees, you know. Or are you suggesting that that's a good place to steal from?
Agreeing with your own stupidity? >:O :P
I charged £1 once. That's enough for a McDonalds cheeseburger. Won't need to bother with the cooking that way.
Avocado?
Pfft.
You are much nobler dust than me :-O
Are they vegetables?
Spoken like a true commoner. :D
You're into spousal abuse aren't you? Your kids would go to school to be comforted by their peers.
Fruit? It would seem?
Hey, I already fixed that like ten min ago.
Well, being a fruit and being a vegetable aren't mutually exclusive. Tomatoes are both.
Teach me your ways... (my 1200th post, btw...I'm really quite modest...)
I quoted from Micheal's quote. You should just do what I do and edit your grammatical errors out of... never mind.
The Singularity.
There aren't enough "yes dear"s in existence to satiate your fury.
Quoting TimeLine
Well that's creepy.
No thanks, I've just had a McDonald's.
There's got to be a salad for that.
A whole one?
The usual form of consumption, yes?
No I just dragged and dropped it into an earlier position to confuse you. Or maybe the singularity did that.
Our cats are pretending to be us whilst we're away at work.
Quoting Baden
He's clever.
I'm going to take that suggestion literally because I have Asperger's.
Fuck, I'm reading Philip K. Dicks' VALIS right now. I don't need any more non-reality. Or maybe I do...
Quoting Baden
If it makes a difference, I call her a bitch even when she is cooking. I don't discriminate based on behaviour (or lack thereof).
Incidentally, it's been too long since I last hit a woman.
It's weird because I've never been able to do that before.
Without watching your vid, this feels like an aesthetically pleasing follow-up
Without watching it, I'll in turn agree.
Fuck you :D
Hey, how'd you quote me before I posted???
(Fuck you :D )
What the...?
Non-fuck you
Retro-fuck you
Unspill that milk! :D
Vat?
I have no need to un or re spill anything; my aesthetic sense reigns supreme in this forum of hell-bent rational analytic couch-surfers! And that's 'cause I'm drunk and not totally sure what all I can get away with around here!
It means "shit". Kind of like McDonald's. Only less expensive.
No, her BMI is only 19.7.
1. I didn't disbelieve you.
2. Did you just take a photo of a computer screen?
Quoting Michael
I know, but what's the value added tax on scheisse?
The shell of your understanding...
Everything I need to know is on your bio. (Y)
0%. I think it's classified as an essential.
Peter Piper's pics of piece of paper.
To quote Kindergarten Cop, "boys have a penis and girls have a vagina".
Yes. Yes it is. And I stand by it. Drunk or sober. Fight me.
Not at all. I'm flattered if anything. :-*
Uh, the milk spilling...??
All you need to know is that the BMI is a pretty useless measure. People with low fat but big muscles can classify as obese under it.
My elbow is 6.2cm.
Bet you can't lick it.
I can.
Lol, go meet up.
Damn. You didn't fall for my trap.
The arms, to aid with cooking?
@Wosret I will release my BMI and show you that it is 21.98 if you take back your false accusations that I lie about myself and write me an apology letter :D
Quoting Sapientia
:D
Quoting Agustino
Release the private messages!
I thought this was my photo:
>:O
With who? >:)
Where are these pictures? I need to see them.
Only when Wos writes me a letter of apology :D
Quoting jamalrob
Why?
Gotta get up pretty early in the morning...
I did. Too early.
>:O
That's an impossible request.
Only after he has unspilt the milk.
That makes me feel better about not getting it either.
It has to be just the right amount of early.
I also don't understand this reference.
I guess I'm not one of the cool kids. You lot and your silly clique.
Quoting Michael
It's some secret PMs between TimeLine and a lover of hers :-O
A fellow Aspie? It's a reference to the time when Agustino made demands of Timeline similar to those made by Trump of Clinton.
No need to be coy. We all know that the two of you are a couple.
Release the tax returns!
No, just a dick.
Well yeah, that's precisely the point - she tried to insinuate that it is me :-O ! But it's not, for real now! >:O
No, I don't care about it, but others do ;)
Release your hand from there! That's a private area, Mr. Trump!
I have filed my taxes a few months ago, but they still didn't charge me... so guess I get to keep the taxes now... >:O
He would be dead by now if we were an item.
You're not that heavy.
Are you this?
Let's see... you're not self-employed or somehow you've avoided the government boys >:O
You look quite scary! Don't want to have the honour of meeting you :s
Are they the people who don't pay the electricity bill? :s
I am at the beginning as well.
Maybe later I have to shave.
What does that mean?
I think the record was set by the French with the Hundred Years' War.
Lol!
It'll be even funnier when we ban you.
No, but he might be Agustino's cat.
Joke...
I wonder if there's the one of me showing off my not-so-hairy chest...
But I'm referring to a couple where I was dressed as a Spartan from 300.
I remember you all dressed as a goth.
Yeah, you did, and I remember them. You told me I had a "comely head", and then posted one of yourself on a patio.
Not even friendship?
Quoting Agustino
Which describes maybe two, at most three, people.
Quoting Agustino
Sounds like a piece of cake!
Yes, even friendship can be harmful, depending on the stage of depression. If people are very depressed, they may further alienate themselves from their friends by being rude, etc. This would then make them feel like they are bad people, which would make them even more depressed, and so on.
Quoting Thorongil
No, it describes a whole load of people actually.
Depression is very difficult to treat. And this tough guy approach of Peterson, Hanover and other conservatives of their ilk is stupid - it doesn't really work unless by work we just mean getting someone to conform to an arbitrary image that happens to be looked up to in society.
If I was depressed, without a job and without money, with no friends, and with no intimate relationship(s), and I went into Peterson's office and he told me to go get a job, get some friends, and start dating, I'd get up and leave instantly. Why? Because it takes no consideration of who I want to be, and what I value in life... Maybe I just want to fix one aspect of my life first - say the money and career aspect. I don't want to be sidetracked by other things. And so on so forth. It all depends on who you want to be. As an entrepreneur for example, who has been working for himself, I probably wouldn't accept to hold a job now, unless I was really starving. And that's just one small example.
Really, how can anyone give credence to these one-a-dime ideas? :s What's Pete promoting here if not just the "average" way recommended by Western society anyway? :s
Here's me in Cambodia.
And here's the one that I think @Sapientia remembers (of me being all edgy).
Think I prefer this one, though. Used to like the black hair but now I think the natural colour is better.
Human contact is still necessary to overcome depression.
Quoting Agustino
I don't know what image you mean. I'm just saying that doing some kind of productive activity is extremely important. You will descend into greater depression by being slothful.
Quoting Agustino
Not everyone in the world is Agustino.
Quoting Agustino
He recommends starting with one small thing to change, though. His followers have a bed making meme he says it so often.
Some good points there. There's no one size fits all solution. It's a very personal condition.
Not everyone lacking human contact is depressed necessarily. There are war prisoners for example who spent years in solitary confinement, and they managed to hold together even in those circumstances. And "human" contact, in particular, isn't especially necessary. Animal contact works too. Dogs are good for depression. But I obviously agree that real isolation (check my reply to Wosret) is a problem and should be fixed (if at all possible).
Quoting Thorongil
Okay so what if I am a 20 year old who quit his job, and am now spending all my days reading non-stop philosophy, science, etc.? Am I "slothful"? Do I need to "get a job"? :s
Saying that productive activity is important is true. But productive activity isn't the same as getting a job. Maybe I want to be a novelist - in which case Pete should encourage me to write, not to "get a job".
Quoting Thorongil
Sure, that's why each person has to be treated individually, and not with these stock answers.
Quoting Thorongil
Yes, and I don't disagree with that, but it must be directed according to the person's aims. For example, there was one time when I was in University when my parents were trying to force me to date, even though I didn't want to, since it didn't jive with my aims at that time.
You're barely as tall as that bush.
Quoting Thorongil
Here's a better argument: work is typically listed amongst the top causes of stress, and stress can lead to depression. One website even specifically mentioned changes of employment status, including new employment.
That's also true.
For example, it was much easier for me to add marketing to my services than to initially get into web dev. And I take some clients for marketing and I know I have no clue if what I'm proposing will help them, but I try it and adjust by trial and error etc. :s - and everyone else who I see doing this job does the same. And we all claim to "get results", to do it "methodically and scientifically" - in other words, that we really know what we're doing. But the real truth, that many marketers may not want to admit, is that nobody knows what they're doing really - it's just giving the impression to others that you know, it's all reputation... In truth, we're all pretty much using the same techniques and tactics, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
And I think management, for example, is much the same. People go around putting "manager" on their CVs, proud that they know leadership theories, they attend leadership workshops, learning how to lead......... :s Who has time to believe these people?
The secret to getting girls is to look like one, because all women are lesbians.™
Nice shot, Bilbo. (Y)
Well, you always talk about girls, so does it feel good runnin' around after them on your knees the whole time, always thinking about them, so on so forth? Real question :D
Sounds painful. Better to run on your feet.
Yeah, but running is tiring - best not to run at all ;) .
I ran after a girl awhile ago in the park... after I let her have a big lead compared to me in running, I wanted to test myself if I could overtake her in less than 1 lap. And I did, but she had started walking...
Invest in a lasso, then.
Good idea for a business :D - I bet I can sell millions of those to female-obsessed American teens like Meta :-$
>:O >:O
She was tired of you checking out her ass.
LOL, no there was no time for that cause she was already out of sight by the time I had started running after her. I didn't think I'd actually manage to catch up to her before 1 lap, so I was quite surprised I did.
I frequently test myself in running against other runners :D - I'm very competitive like that.
That's why you started running after her; because she was out of sight and you wanted to check out her ass.
LOOL!! Actually, I always run after other runners in the park - to check how good I am compared to them. I'm a competitive person lol. I don't actually remember how she looked, or what she was wearing for that matter...
Lol.
Thats my life philosophy, they have a monoply on hotness.
One time in first year of University, I went to an English club for the first time at a friend's birthday, and I had to literarily run away to escape from this blonde girl who wasn't leaving me alone :-O
English people really have no restraints! >:O
Did you lap her, too? Because that would have been counterproductive.
No, I literarily didn't do anything to her, and even pushed her away, and still I couldn't get completely rid of her inside the club. So I had to run away >:O
She was crazy! I was still with my high-school girlfriend at that time...
?
Do you know what it means to "lap" someone?
No, but regardless, I didn't do anything to her >:O . Even Urban Dictionary doesn't know :s
Why would chicks find you so attractive? Do you wander around dressed like this?
That is exactly and precisely why.
Oh that meaning >:O >:O - thankfully no, I never had the unfortunate chance of meeting her again.
I never said it was. I was talking about people who are depressed.
Quoting Agustino
That would be a job, if one is supporting oneself with it.
Quoting Agustino
Being a novelist, if it supports your well being, would be a job. However, there is no possibility of simply writing novels or reading philosophy without some means of providing sustenance. I would like nothing more than to read philosophy and great literature all day. I'm actively trying to achieve just such a thing. But I can't right now, and I may not ever be able to. I'm not Schopenhauer who conveniently has a rich father to bequeath a fortune, enabling me to just go read philosophy. I have to work a shitty job and see if I can get into graduate school, and then after that, see if I can become a professor to even come close.
Quoting Agustino
There are still general items of advice applicable to most people, though.
There's an equivocation going on here. What you and Agustino mean by work is not what I'm conceiving of it as.
I'm going to guess that you've been consuming alcohol.
Sure, but wouldn't the cause of the depression need to be identified?
Quoting Thorongil
Well, it's not a job. A job means having an employer who pays you a salary at the end of the month, and who sets your schedule, how you dress, what you have to do, etc. I don't have a job currently, for example, being self-employed.
Quoting Thorongil
There are ways for you to reach Schopenhauer's level. You wouldn't need that much money since I suppose you'd have low costs, and wouldn't spend a lot, like me. If you make $1 mil, that's more than plenty. Not easy to do, but not impossible either. If you start the right business you can easily reach it in less than 10 years of hard work.
And actually, if Schopenhauer went to Pete for depression, he'd tell him to get a job >:O
>:O !!!!
Sure, that's generally good advice. But Agustino is also right that what's generally good advice might be bad advice for a particular individual.
Oh dear... :s ... when @TimeLine sees this, you're going to get a lecture, as you actually deserve to get one.
Hmmm...
Let them play with a piece of string. They like that. Or you could give them some kitten food.
You must be! Look, he can't even spell "fucking"! One might almost think that it was done deliberately...
Yes, but that cause need not be isolation. My point is that isolation once depressed is generally a bad combo.
Quoting Agustino
Sure, anyone can redefine words to fit their purposes.
Quoting Agustino
No, this is pie in the sky optimistic nonsense. It took me several months just to find the crappy part time job I have now. I'm trained in the humanities. I don't know anything other than how to read, write, and (hopefully) think. There will be no business creating or million dollar making for me.
Well ironically, I think that's what you've done, because to most people a job just means having an employer. If you don't have an employer, you don't have a job...
Quoting Thorongil
Finding a job and starting a business are two entirely different things. You could be terrible working at a job (or even finding a job), and still succeed in the business world. They're two different skills. In fact, someone who works at a prestigious job generally does not learn what it takes to start a business.
There have been many entrepreneurs who barely made ends meet, till they got lucky and became an overnight success. The poet Felix Dennis was one of them. Before Bruce Lee mysteriously died, he was a struggling low-time British businessman barely making ends meet. He didn't even have a college degree. Lee's death, however, made his book and magazine into an instant success. He reinvested profits in computer magazines, and he made for himself a gigantic fortune (>$900 million).
And the business world is also not gradual. It's not like if you had a 70K/year job you'd be any closer to business success than if you have a 10K/year job.
Also, you can write better than most people I suppose. That's a very important skill to have, especially nowadays when most people cannot put two words together. From marketing to publishing - the entire field is open to you. Write an eBook on some narrow topic, market it. Start a blog in a niche that people are interested in, keep adding content over the years, place ads on it, start selling stuff on it, etc. Start a editing and proofreading business like Baden. You can do lots of things. You'd just need to spend a little time getting familiar with marketing, how the internet works, building a reputation for yourself, etc. If you divide your spare time between reading philosophy and this, then you can certainly do it. Your skills are far more valuable than you realise.
But I do understand the fear one feels when "starting out" in the real world, whether in getting a job, or starting a business and so on so forth. And I hate saying into "the real world" cause unfortunately we should all have been in the "real world" way sooner. But our society is messed up, and our Universities are structured so that you don't learn any real skills, so that you can be dependent on others after. You think I learned much of practical skills because I did engineering? :s Pf. If you were to try to go and be an independent engineer based just on the skills you learn from University, you wouldn't ever do it - you wouldn't even get chartered... Nobody learns what is really required in University. Nobody gives you a free bread in this world. Do not imagine that ANY employer has your interest at heart. None do. They just want to use your labour. You have to learn, study and take it yourself. You have to teach yourself the skills you need. Part of what I learned in University though is that adults know no better than me - so I learned to trust my own judgement. I had one professor especially, whom I loved, and who always asked "Why do you ask me?! You are the expert! You have to use your own judgement to determine what is right and wrong"
But it's important to always remain open-minded. When you become closed-minded like you tended to by saying you'll never end up with a lot of money, then you make it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. As Heraclitus said, if you do not expect the unexpected, you will not find it. Always remember that the gap between being broke and medium success is always larger than the gap between being broke and massive success in any field for that matter. The secret is to use what you already have - the world always wants to make you think you're not good enough, that's what its job is.
>:O >:O >:O @Sapientia
LOL! That crazy tool! I almost cut my boots with it once on a construction site.
Nah. For some reason, I don't think anyone wants me on the bookshelf.
Quoting Thorongil You can say that again...lol.
Would you eat all the books? :-#
O:)
Which rules out self-employed jobs. I guess you don't have a job, then.
Quoting Agustino
Lol. This only reinforces my point. Appeals to luck and a couple of anecdotes are not enough to overturn my convictions, sorry.
Quoting Agustino
The problem is that you need money and time in order to make money this way, neither of which I have. And I'd rather not add to my university debt in some harebrained business-starting venture thank you very much.
Quoting Agustino
This is why I continue down the academic track. And I keep becoming a monk or hermit in the back of my mind as well.
Yes, that's exactly my point.
Quoting Thorongil
You do need time (obviously), but not money (though obviously, if you do have access to money that can be helpful too). You can start with $0 (a blog is free to open, you can switch to your own hosting and domain after you start getting traffic that justifies it).
Quoting Thorongil
I'm not sure how it in US, but in some places, you can avoid paying your uni debt (depending on how you financed it) if you earn very little officially. Most people have a wrong idea of starting a business. The idea is to start with 0 capital and earn and reinvest. I did literarily start working on my own with $0 capital investment (then you can buy more, including learning resources, etc.). Most businessmen start like this actually... very few people have access to sources of capital - Michael Bloomberg did, for example - he was a big banker before he started his business which worked, surprisingly, with big banks :-} . But most people who start in business are people with little resources, and they have to find ways to do with the little they have and ingenuity. Capital starts coming in only after you are successful - Mark Zuckerberg had a successful and popular product before he got Peter Thiel to invest, all built by himself. It wasn't perfect, but good enough.
There are others like Bill Bartmann, for example, who started his debt collection business with 0 cash and 1 million in personal debt to the bank after his previous oil business failed. Lack of resources isn't necessarily impossible to overcome through ingenuity. In fact, a tragedy like that, having $1 million in personal debt, will FORCE you to be ingenious. He realised that there was no way to repay 1 million by working a job anyway - so he started to think practically, how can I get $1 million to pay my debt?
Quoting Thorongil
Up to you, I'm just telling you some possibilities.
:s >:O >:O >:O - yeah yeah, you forgot to pay the Three Stooges to give you access :-} - what a silly guy, doesn't even know how to work out BBCodes and thinks it's because he's not allowed access. It's the socialist state mate, they are controlling your access, that Labour Partay you keep voting for. They want your dough.
Great, big and cute mess too? :-O >:O
It's getting too late here lol, going to sleep. Goodnight to you and everyone else :)
Hmm, it takes a cute person to make a cute mess...so you decide.
"An old Tudor English word for a fool. Coined by the 15th-16th century poet John Skelton."
Interesting. I've long admired this poem by Skelton: http://www.poetrynook.com/poem/manner-world-nowadays
Have you read The Tunning of Elynour Rummyng? Skelton's poem tells the story of Eleanor's small time ale house. Wikipedia characterizes the poem as "a long raucous poem ... and presents what many would consider disgusting images of rural drinking and drunkenness", as opposed to dignified and never disgusting urban drinking and drunkenness,
Several stanzas are devoted to describing Elynour herself:
Her lothely lere
Is nothynge clere,
But ugly of chere,
Droupy and drowsy,
Scurvy and lowsy;
Her face all bowsy,
Comely crynkled,
Woundersly wrynkled,
Lyke a rost pygges eare,
Brystled wyth here.
...
It seems to me I read a longer version which included a verse about the chickens that roosted over the ale barrel.
Let's apply a little logic:
If you're self-employed, then haven't you employed yourself? And wouldn't that mean that you're your own employer? Thus, you do have an employer. Thus, if you're self-employed, then you have a job.
Yes, it does. I have two of them at the same level on the hierarchy. [I]I'm[/I] having to train [i]them[/I]. And they were both permitted to go on holiday at the same time - at [i]the[/I] most important period - leaving me to do [I]their[/I] job, with all of the stress and responsibilities that it involves.
Exactly, I think that's unfair but it's unavoidable because the "boss" isn't really a boss - he also has worker mentality - do as little as possible, and get paid as much as possible. All workers seek to do as little as possible and get paid as much as possible - since for a worker and an employee this is possible. But if you are an entrepreneur then this is impossible, for you only earn if the work is there, if it's not... impossible to earn. An entrepreneur is in this sense much more of a materialist than a worker, who is an idealist.
Only shitty people. Decent human beings understand that if we all attempted to take out more than we put in, everything would become pretty shitty pretty quickly. If we all put it more than we take out, everything is great for everyone. Most are doughheads that can't figure that one though.
I agree but I don't think it's just about being a shitty person. It's also that the material reality is such that the worker's earnings are not tied to any real metric that tracks value added. So the worker is permanently tempted by his material reality to add as little value as possible.
If I'm a worker, I generally have a fixed monthly wage. My wage thus does not reflect material reality - if I'm super-productive and if I'm lazy, I get the same pay - thus why be productive? I will be productive a few times, see my boss doing nothing and earning more than me, and then I'll be like why work so hard?!
As self-employed on the other hand - or as an entrepreneur - if I don't work, if I don't add any value, then I get paid absolutely zero. My "wage" can literarily fluctuate between 0 and as much value as I add every month - so the material reality continually pressures me to be honest about my performance.
Yes you see, but this is precisely the problem with worker mentality. Your material reality does not reward you for working harder - so you have no incentive to do it.
I always have a philosophy to charge 10% of how much my client earns from what I do. If I do a PPC campaign and bring him business of $10K, then I'll take $1K.
There is a lot more to be gained than just money, but even only based on that metric, unless your job has exactly zero movement potential, then that is not true. Working harder gets noticed, gets bigger raises from evaluations, particularly in construction or labor, they generally pay by the work, but even in normal retail jobs, upward momentum isn't all about rubbing elbows.
Only real asshats think that being a selfish asshat ever means that they're smarter, or wiser than anyone.
That's true, but my point still holds - there is a radical disconnect between wage and value added - the two aren't proportional. Wage grows significantly slower than value added. So yes, if you're a super hard worker, and know how to negotiate (because otherwise you won't get any raise), then you will get raises and the like. But they will not be anywhere near the additional value that you actually provide to the business.
You'll also be healthier, that work ethic will permeate all facets of your life and inspire those around you, reveal insight into the processes and values of a more impressive class of people, reduce stress, increase serotonin, inspire respect, and reduce feelings of resentment and victimization.
Sure, if you have that mindset, but most people don't.
I wasn't saying what is most popular or common, but which is superior.
Well, I agree, incidentally, that's also the mentality that allows you to be self-employed and even employ others.
Like a boss.
That is the attitude of some employees, but not all. Hopefully a manager will be able to motivate you, but if not, fire you, because you're not only unproductive, but a poison. That's just to say I've seen plenty of workers as you describe, and they get nowhere, stuck at their low level, disgruntled, and oh so sure they've got it all figured out and are smarter than everyone else.
[quote=Ephesians 6:7–8][sup]7[/sup] Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, [sup]8[/sup] because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.[/quote]
That's how you leftists go when you cover your ears not to hear the truth.
(I don't watch news videos; I much prefer something to read.)
Here :P
It says democrats bad, conservatives good.
Does your mother know you're talking to people like that on teh internetz?
I agree with you to a certain extent, however, I question the idea that the managers are any better - they too are more often than not of the same cloth. Just cause they have a higher position in the social hierarchy and get paid more doesn't by itself make them any better.
The thing is many people don't realise that their material conditions cannot change unless they take real material action - learn a skill more in-depth, learn new skills, start a business, etc.
No, why don't you give her a call and inform her? See what she says. Then you can get back to me ;)
Not necessarily. If an employer is always someone other than oneself, then by being self-employed, you don't have an employer. Or your employer would be all the people who buy your product, in a certain sense.
This morning I happened across this video. The girl is basically claiming that the progressive left is failing because it's "against human nature," and this failure has consequently lead to nihilism and the rise of the Alt-right. As she refers to Nietzsche and his conception of nihilism as an event, I suppose she means 'against nature' in a will-to-power sort of way, but she doesn't really go into reasons for why she believes progressive values are unnatural.
As a general rule, I'd think that centrist or moderate political views and values would be the closest to what might be considered 'natural', and extreme left or right the most 'unnatural'.
I find it a little disturbing that people can have such rigid views about human nature.
Well yeah, I think she's right about some of those issues.
Quoting praxis
I think she must have read a different Nietzsche than I did.
This one looks more interesting.
Hmmm, her views were quite reasonable actually, I agreed with her on most questions except a few, which is why I guess I'm more left than her, but about the same in terms of authoritarian/libertarian (she's actually slightly more libertarian than I am).
Did you click the link?
Yeah it was BBC in a weird language, what about it?
It's funny.
"Woman wan troway poo-poo, come trap for window"
"De one we dem de read well well"
>:O Oh, lol! Didn't bother to look in detail before, just briefly popped it open for a few seconds and then ctrl+w'ed it >:)
Generally speaking, to progress may be an effort to surpass a base nature, so it could be construed as being against human nature, I suppose. But to claim such an effort is doomed to failure is to say that humans cannot progress. We know from history that is not the case, so she's wrong on a fundamental level.
On an incidental level, she seemed to claim that the 50s represented a more natural value system. This was a time when women were home makers, it was prior to the civil rights act, etc etc... a time when America was Great. But if it was so great and naturally meaningful then why has it largely failed?
Can you offer any explanation as to why progressivism may be inherently meaningless?
Quoting Agustino
She confines her reference to nihilism as a natural phenomena, such as occurring with a significant loss of meaning.
Which is irrelevant to whether said views are true or not.
(Didn't watch the video, btw.)
Of course my feeling about the issue it irrelevant to the truth of whether or not there’s an essential and immutable human nature. All actual evidence suggests otherwise, however.
That sucks. For my part, I'm in the wine retail business, and NYC is essentially the wine capital of the world in terms of imports. I've been in the business for a few years. But my boss, who does all of the buying, is doing this for the first time. But she has this vibe of pretending she knows shit, when she doesn't. For instance, when she says things like "Bordeaux and Burgundy are next to each other, right?" And I have to tell her...no...they're not...and her buying habits for the store are extremely unruly and bad business in general; she's just following what she thinks the trends are, without giving thought to how to populate the store with an appropriate variety of options. And on top of all of that, she has this vibe of trying to appear intelligent and full of wine knowledge, when in reality, I spend more time researching and tasting wines than her. But I also don't give a fuck, ultimately. And maybe that's the final irony: I'm lazy and could care less, yet I still know more than her.
Quoting Noble Dust
Well, you should care, maybe you go into selling wine yourself. If you had money you'd have a much easier time making it in the music world. I have a friend who has been struggling for many years to get into the film industry, he's in the US at the moment actually. He's recently been thinking to do something trying to make a lot of money first as well - then he'd have an easier time getting the money he needs to make the films he wants, without depending on others. Those art industries seem to be literarily impossible to get into in the common ways in today's world. Too competitive.
The irony isn't your boss is clueless, and it's certainly not you don't care. The irony is that you're clueless as to how to rectify the problem, so you roll your eyes and pretend not to care. Your boss is superior to you in having figured out how to be noticed.
There are all sorts of ways to rise up in your industry, and they all relate to developing contacts, communicating clearly, identifying opportunities, avoiding dead ends, being optimistic, and using interpersonal skills. Whatever it might take, I can assure you that resentment is not it. This goes for Sapientia as well, probably more.
I know this post has the typical Hanover "shut up and get to work" theme, but it's more sympathetic than you might think. I've just seen so much self imposed limitation by those most passionate, which truly is a failure of management in motivating. Don't let their failure to foster your passion derail you. You're just better than that and have the power to produce quality despite their ineptitude. Quality is always ultimately rewarded, regardless of the business model. That's not Hanoverian optimism. That's Darwinism.
My point is that your post had the stench of quit. If you're going to strike out, go down swinging.
Being noticed is irrelevant. What's relevant is gaining control over the real mechanisms of power in that industry. Which in this case involves being able to source the wine and selling it yourself, not working for someone else. Working for someone else is always being at their mercy, makes little difference whether you're CEO or just a random clerk. You can still get fired.
Quoting Hanover
Well, I'm not sure what to say to them. It must be very difficult in the US or UK to start from nothing and grow. In developing countries, this is easier, which is in part why I decided to leave the UK. It is true that it is very competitive in those countries, not sure if I would manage there. So in a certain sense, this resentment and nihilism are unavoidable in the developed West.
Forgive me for this assumption, but I assume you were born and raised up in the post-war boom. That was a period marked by economic optimism, when the West grew massively, and there were a lot of opportunities. This doesn't seem to be the case anymore in Western countries. Opportunities are fewer, and competition is greater than ever. So the fact that we see greater pessimism is just the result of that. These material conditions determine it. If we went through another massive world war, I'm sure those who survive would find great optimism, booming economies, opportunities everywhere, and so on so forth. But population has been growing very fast, it's harder to make it. Even in your job, as a lawyer, it's much harder to become a big-time lawyer today than 50 years ago. Roy Cohn, Trump's lawyer, was working for Senator McCarthy and he was just 23 years old! At 23 today, a lawyer is just a small, useless pawn.
A few years ago I met a big-time lawyer in Macedonia. And I was talking to him, and I asked him, what did you do after you finished law school? And he told me simply, I found a place to rent, and made my own law firm. And I asked him, directly, just like that, with no experience? And he said, totally unsurprised, yes. As if it was nothing. So that's possible in those places (especially 50 years ago, but even today it is, but less so). But try doing the same in the US :s .
Quoting Hanover
And yeah, I obviously agree with that. Never ever give up.
Nonsense. That might might be the endgame, but there are hundreds off steps between.Quoting Agustino
If the war you're referring to is Vietnam. I was born in 1966. The job market sucked when I graduated.Quoting Agustino
That happens all the time in the US. The legal market is cyclical like all markets, and it's currently very strong.
No, I'm obviously referring to World War II. The job market may have sucked - relatively. But the post-war boom is undeniable and is marked by the computer and internet revolution in the developed world, which allowed a lot of new wealth to be created. You would obviously have finished law school by the 1990s, right when the USA was about to notice one of the biggest booms in its economy, from 1990-2000, until the internet bubble burst. So you did go through a relatively very good economic period.
Quoting Hanover
Ok, I obviously don't know the US that much, so I'll take your word about that. But was it easier to open your own law firm 100 years ago than today if you were educated as a lawyer? The answer is very easy and very simple - 100 years ago it was easier, as there was less competition, especially if you were well-educated. Was it easier to rise to the top 100 years ago? You bet.
It's hard to have a monopoly today - either because there are other monopolies out there (think Google for search engines), or because it's simply too darn competitive. To do it you either need political support, which means corruption effectively, or be a mobster, or somehow or other corner the market in a way no one else can. For example, since Google is banned in China, there's room for another search engine to replace it there. Obviously with the help of the state.
Back in the day they knew how to handle being overt, and genuine, if people boasted or disrespected you, and couldn't back it up, then it was time for a beat down, or if they could, everyone would hold you both back from killing each other, even the gods would intervene to praise you both as super awesome and valuable, and tell you that you both speak the truth, accept that you're a match for one and other, it doesn't have to go too far.
These days passive aggression, plausible deniability, and ridiculous delusion reign supreme.
They knew how to reward a guy back in the day too, with something like:
"Which in his tent he pledg'd him to bestow.
Sev'n tripods promis'd he, untouch'd by fire,
Of gold, ten talents, twenty caldrons bright,
Twelve pow'rful horses, in the course renown'd.
Who by their speed have many prizes won.
Not empty-handed could that man be deem'd,
Nor poor in gold, who but so much possess'd
As by those horses has for him been won.
Sev'n women too, well skill'd in household cares,
Lesbians, whom he selected for himself,
That day thou captur'dst Lesbos' goodly isle,
In beauty far surpassing all their sex."
But of course, like a good hero, you'll vow to be their savior on compassion alone, and demand not even one super hot lesbian.
What day exactly did all this badassery go down?
There's not a company out there that isn't worried that their mousetrap isn't about to become obsolete.
That's a quote from the Iliad, and the offer is made to Achilles. I think that probably the most bad ass part though, is when Zues tells all of the other gods to stop intervening in the war, and not to forget just how OP he is, if they wished to test it, he'd hang down a golden chain from Olympus, and they could have a tug-o-war, but would be unable to move him, whereas when he decides to give it a yank, he'll haul them all up with such force that it will take all the oceans with them.
We all definitely got better and not worse at all...
Poseidon has the Trident... you know, the little mermaid's dad. Zues has thunder blots, fashioned by Hephaestus. Athena has been known to boast having access to them though.
Identifying with the voices in your head is the sane thing to do.
"Oh, the English sword in the stone, based on the Irish sword in the tree. I have the original" - Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh is in possession of all epic weapons.
A thóin mór, téigh dtí Diabhail!
(Get thee to the devil's house, fatass!)
It's "Zeus", and they were made by the Cyclopes.
First part yes, second no... no one really made it because it wasn't real silly, and I prefer the stories that involve Hephaestus.
Well yeah, I agree with you with regards to human creativity and ingenuity, it's a good point actually and one of the main reasons why I'm not a communist (and why I'm a distributist). However, it doesn't contradict what I said. Google will most likely remain supreme in search engines - but someone may invent something other than a search engine which allows people to find information faster and more easily, which would make the search engine market/industry obsolete. Google didn't compete with Encyclopedia Britannica directly, they just eliminated the need for that market (along with the whole development of the internet).
But I hope you do realise what this implies. Creativity and ingenuity are very hard - they take a lot of sacrifices and they're not what most people will be willing to engage in. That's the problem with something like distributism which would encourage everyone to be an entrepreneur of some kind, or to have a society dominated by smaller entrepreneurial groups. Such a system cannot work with the profit drive of capitalism, since it makes it cut-throat and requires too much sacrifice from most people - so they don't even want to be entrepreneurs. For them, it takes the fun out, since they don't have the ambition.
So sure, those who are creative and ingenious will be ok in it, but let's face it, most people are lazy and don't want to work too much. Why do you think there are so many young people who are socialist, marxists, etc.? These people want to party most of them, have fun, relax, etc. They don't want to break their brains starting a business, being creative, inventing something new, learning etc. They lack the ambition on the one hand, and the discipline and values on the other to pursue such a thing in a competitive environment. They don't want to make the sacrifices required. Why do you think I told you before that to gain the world, one must first renounce it?
So you cannot structure society just so that the "creative, ingenious and ambitious" profit. For example, I was very ambitious even in school, so I always did well, but I remember the vast majority of people being dissatisfied with the school system - they weren't winners, they were losers in it. Someone like me may be able to work 12 hours a day every day including Saturdays, and spend their time not only making money, but gaining new skills too. But not everyone will. Most people want more social contact (not only business, or at the gym, or on a forum every now and then), they want breaks, etc.
So unless something is done, those people aren't going to tolerate this system, and will break it, even if it will take all of us down with it. So that's what I think you don't realise regarding the disgruntled workers. I don't like most of the complainers either, but it is what it is, we have to take them into account too. I wish they'd all become entrepreneurs or hard workers, etc. just like I wish all sinners would become holy and God-fearing, but it's not going to happen.
Yes, on average, there is no moral progress. Technological progress doesn't mean moral progress. The scientistic types seem to confuse the two of them. Quite the contrary, we're more violent and dangerous than ever precisely because we have grown our power with technology, but have not improved our souls.
Quoting praxis
I don't agree with her necessarily about the 50s, or Japanese society (don't forget the huge number of sex shops and porn-viewing in Japan).
Quoting praxis
What is great and naturally meaningful doesn't necessarily last. There is no inherent link between the two. Just the fact that a system falls apart doesn't mean that it's bad. Simply the historical conditions force it into self-destruction for one reason or another.
Quoting praxis
Because, for example, equality, is a levelling of everyone to the same level. One of the biggest problems today is that we're all equal. We're all encouraged to think of each other as equal, if you think of yourself as a genius, even if you happen to be one, then you'll be reprimanded - how dare you? And this is happening in our schools. So equality just is the disappearance of values - values are precisely these differences, the lower and the higher.
As you're aware, my career goal is to be a musical artist, not a wine importer. Wine is a hobby for me, so it's nice to get paid for a hobby, rather than work a job I have 0 interest in. I've considered trying to just make as much money as possible so as to then devote time and money to music, but in practice I don't think it's realistic. More money means more responsibility to do a job that I'm ultimately not that passionate about, and more responsibility means more time spent working after hours, and suddenly there's no time for music, which means i become more and more rusty at all of the different aspects of what i do as an artist.
Yeah, that is true, you would probably be looking at sacrificing at least 10-15 years if you were to try it, and there is no guarantee of success. But then the other path is also really risky - there's no guarantee that you'll make it as an artist by the more traditional ways either. From what I've talked with my other friend and with you, getting into those art related fields is extremely difficult by traditional routes, more difficult actually than making it in business. Incidentally, I think I may have discussed this with John too a long time ago, can't remember.
(Sorry to quote your whole post, I'm on my phone and don't want to scroll back up and down. That laziness :P )
As Agustino mentioned, my career goal is to be a musical artist; I'm interested in wine as a hobby, so it's nice to work a job that's a personal hobby rather than something I'm not interested in. That's what i mean when i say i don't care. And I'm not philosophically a stoic, btw.
I agree with Agustino, being noticed only has value in itself; yes, my boss has been noticed because of her interpersonal skills more than anything, which is great if you're an equal with her, but it turns out when she's your boss, all she does is critize the smallest mistakes you make at your job. Anyway, the point being that being noticed has no correlation to quality of work; "fake it till you make it". I could care less about that fake bullshit; I care about quality work.
Quoting Hanover
Yes this is common; I'll tell you why. Those most passionate have a low bullshit tolerance and a high pain tolerance.
There's no way i could do that.
Quoting Agustino
Yes.
The only other alternative I've considered is moving somewhere cheaper and more rural so i have more time and energy to make the music i need to make, and stop trying to make it a career. There's an insane amount of mental pressure built up from trying to do this. It's an attractive idea, but i know it would also lead to a different type of depression than what i have currently.
Kiss the behind of those higher than you, step on those lower than you. I've seen this as well, I hate that type of person. They are also usually the least loyal people and the most traitorous. One of the reasons why I prefer working independently.
Well, the only real way to solve your depression is to find a way to make it as a musician. I think the two of them are related. Part of the problem is of course that you're just born at a time in history when it's so crowded - everyone wants to do it.
So one way to make it is to get some experience, even small experience in US, and then move to a different country with a less developed musical scene. Being from the US will be a great asset there, so it will be much easier to be appreciated. It would also help if you found a way to get a non-music related form of income that you could acquire regardless of where you were geographically - that way you could travel to different places relatively easily.
I don't think that's totally true; true, doing what i love full time would improve my mental health, but there are other causes of depression in my life.
Quoting Agustino
Yeah, thatsthat's true. I love traveling, and I've never been to Europe. That's definitely an option; Europeans do seem to love American music for whatever reason. But again, the main issue is income.
Have you tried roofing?
Progressivism is concerned with social reform, in accordance with the Enlightenment idea of progress, and not specifically with morals or technology. For instance, if there were some method to improve the conditions of an underclass, the technology used in this method, or average morality of those affected, wouldn’t matter. Improved conditions, like less crime, betters schools, etc., would facilitate moral and technical development.
Besides this, on an individual level we know that progress is possible and can be meaningful. I know that I’m more morally developed now than I was when younger. I try to work on becoming a better person each day, though life can often get in the way, and it’s meaningful.
Quoting Agustino
Well, if lynching statistics is a valid metric...
Quoting Agustino
Her claim is that progressivism is doomed to fail because it’s counter to human nature (will-to-power), and indeed according to Nietzschian thought all systems are doomed to failure and eternal recurrence. There are other views on human nature, such as that of Viktor Frankl (will-to-meaning), in which progressivism can be seen as meaningful or non-nihilistic, wherein natural cycles of development>corruption>reform nevertheless result in progress over the long run. Reformation is natural and progressive.
Quoting Agustino
Egalitarian values uphold the fundamental worth of others and their political, economic, and social opportunities in society. There is value in diversity, and indeed diversity is more natural and healthy compared to a monoculture, which is prone to stagnation and degradation due to its inherent weakness.
Whatever makes you feel better...
..."self-employed" is an odd term to come up with for that. "Other-employed" would make more sense. Or simply "employed".
Whatever eh? The possibilities.
You contradict yourself.
Quoting praxis
Yes, on an individual level I have no doubt.
Quoting praxis
You're just looking at extremely short historical intervals, and only at one geographical location. If you were to look at Iraq for example, it would be a different picture. And just because lynching has gradually reduced from 1940s-present in the US isn't a big indication of a change in morality - it's just the end of one activity. The same immorality may very well be flowing down different channels today.
Quoting praxis
She never mentions will-to-power. Her understanding of Nietzsche isn't very good.
Really? I doubt such admiration is deserv'd. Now, Shakespeare used that word and indeed this certainly reminds us why he was just (L)
[i]No, Time, thou shalt not boast that I do change:
Thy pyramids built up with newer might
To me are nothing novel, nothing strange;
They are but dressings of a former sight.
Our dates are brief, and therefore we admire
What thou dost foist upon us that is old;
And rather make them born to our desire
Than think that we before have heard them told.
Thy registers and thee I both defy,
Not wondering at the present nor the past,
For thy records and what we see doth lie,
Made more or less by thy continual haste.
This I do vow and this shall ever be;
I will be true despite thy scythe and thee.[/i]
You should elaborate on that, so's as I know which are which. I just did a google search for descriptions and definitions of philosophy, and look what wiki says "Is there a best way to live? Is it better to be just or unjust (if one can get away with it)?", like in the first paragraph, the dilemma now is, should I be proud that my last topic was so explicitly philosophical, or disappointed that it was so explicitly philosophical?
Unless we're raising the exact questions again and again as explicitly demarcated in dictionaries, encyclopedias, or academia, how can we be sure, and when we're sure, isn't it boring? Is "what is philosophical?" a philosophical question?
No bar stool philosophizing. That can go in the lounge. The Deja Vu discussion is an example. The philosophy categories are for conversations that lean academic. I know that's not that specific but here's an example of something not very academic but acceptable:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/2254/philosophical-alienation-/p1
Oh, I wasn't criticizing you or anyone else anyway. Just want stuff in the right place.
He also said "I don't risk sounding crazy, I strive for it" which is surely profoundly philosophical.
I didn't even read the op, I just thought that "deja vu" isn't considered significant, or is considered profound to idiots, but evolution is super significant, and a big deal to smart people, even though neither are really taught about in academic philosophical settings, though surely one could get away with an essay or dissertation on either, as long as one could bring them back to the philosophical topics of consideration in academic classrooms.
And with my help at least, we did arrive at the implications for knowledge.
And just where would we be without our bar stools, I'd like to know!
Quoting Baden
“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” Ralph Waldo Emerson
But being misunderstood, does not make one great. Otherwise I would be really GREAT.
Too close...
Wtf are you on about?
I'm complimenting you.
Hey, this is just my day job. At night I'm a vampire stalking the streets sucking the philosophicalness out of everything I can find and feeding it to my batlet brood. Oh, wait, it is night now. Hmm.
Do you realize how aweful this sounds. If it wasn’t a significant change in morality then the crime couldn’t have been a significant moral transgression.
Quoting Agustino
I don’t think the point is to get it right but only to try adding some semblance of credibility to her position.
Two miles tall, living for ten million million years? That's how it used to be, by the end we'll all be super duper short, like Jon Stewart.
Ello.
:s - what does the crime being a significant moral transgression have to do with whether it's practiced or not?
Quoting praxis
She's actually quite a good speaker, and she makes many good points. I don't see why you find it lacking credibility :s - maybe if you could tell us? She actually seems like quite a sensible person from the videos regarding the views she has. She's not a neo-nazi or anything extreme right wing. Even on her political compass, she was very centre. And her YouTube channel seems to have done really well in just a couple of months.
Sounds like you've embodied the spirit of gobbledygook.
Is morality not manifested in acts? If morality (a system) is not related to behavior, what significance can it have?
The reality of no blacks being subjected to mob violence (where they once were) must be considered a change in morality. The same principle applies to gay people. If gay people are beaten up (because they are gay) far less often today than they were 50 years ago, that is the result of a change in morality. Unless, of course, you want to sever any relationship between morality and behavior--in which case, you can grasp nothing about someone's moral principles by observing their behavior.
The relationship between behavior and moral principles isn't one of strict equivalence, where individuals never act in ways they consider immoral. One may hold theft as an immoral act, and steal something. Most murders-in-the-heat-of-the-moment are in all likelihood committed by people who think murder is wrong. One has to look at the larger picture. Almost all of the time people follow the guidance of their moral system.
"Immorality may very well be flowing down different channels" might be true. But you would need to show how the morality which justifies lynching "flows down different channels" and results in job discrimination, for instance. It doesn't seem altogether plausible that one could show that.
The attitudes motivating job discrimination might be very similar to the attitudes justifying lynching, but attitudes are not morality. The attitude (set of values about the worth of black people) toward black people caused lynching as well as discrimination in housing, employment, education, and health care.
Are you equating morality with attitudes? (Some people certainly equate them. Disliking groups of people -- blacks, gays, immigrants, intellectuals, white people, etc -- is equivalent to a crime in many people's view.
My fake cat and my real cat are friends.
I'm an entitled millennial, I expect someone else to do it.
I know, that video was hilarious at the end where she sees the results. Check out the micro-expression.
She describes herself as "far right."
It might be an interesting study to see if taking a self-assessment test like this publicly tends to make folks choose the more politically correct answers, pushing everyone towards the center.
My condolences.
What, not a fan of Skelton?
I’m going on a hunger strike until you apologize for saying that.
If they obeyed the law against taking justice into their own hands, then they were behaving in a more moral manner. We really can't talk about what is in their "hearts" because we don't have ready access to whatever is in there. God didn't give the Israelites the Ten Commandments because their behavior was superbly moral. God gave them the Big Ten to help them become more moral. (Whether it worked or not is up for debate.)
When people stop behaving in a certain way, their thinking (their "hearts") will shift (in time) to match what they do. You are so right -- that idea doesn't account for everything. Some people change their thinking (their "hearts") first, and then their behavior follows suit, in time.
Do we really care how people become more moral, if more moral they become?
As far as I’m aware there’s been only one major change in laws surrounding lynching, since emancipation I guess, which was the designation of hate crime included in the civil right act of 1968. Incidents of reported lynching was reduced to zero by that time, however.
No, I am not a fan of his poetry, but I am a fan of Skelton. That is, I don't know how to appreciate his work. Is it a historical appreciation? Maybe. I myself recently attempted a pantoum that was well received, but what can you call his; a number of tercets and pantoum? I respect him though as a historical figure and a representative of the tudor period.
You lose. I win.
:-}
Quoting praxis
No, I don't remember her describing herself as far right, and by all extents and purposes she is not far right. She's slightly nationalist, anti-corporatist, etc. Very similar to me politically, but a bit more right-wing. It is possible that she gets the feeling that she's far more right-wing than she is, just because of the pathetic culture we live in.
Quoting Wosret
Well, Wosy, that might not impress us, but it may impress her. So why not get in touch with her? You're from Canada, she's from US, you are close geographically and share similar political position. You mentioned wanting to start your own YouTube channel too. Not to mention that Jordan Peterson is adamant about getting the girl, so what are you waiting for? 8-)
I believe the correct phrase is intents and purposes.
Actually, I believe the correct phrase is incestuous porpoises.
To all [s]extents and purposes[/s] [s]intents and purposes[/s] incestuous porpoises.
I am so in your head right now, it's about to explode. You have no idea what to do except not provide a face close up, or will you? Should you now give another foot pic, or try to be clever with an ear? Maybe give a navel pic. No, you're too smart for that pervy suggestion, but it's be so edgy if you did., so maybe you will.
You are so confused. Hanover - 1, Timeline -0.
Im highly impressionable...
I believe "to" and "for" are both acceptable porpositions in this phrase. Otherwise (Y)
Or you could just ask me for Timeline's pic.
Baden 1,000,000
Hanover 0
-0 > -1
I just wanted to say "porposition".
Quoting Michael
Roasted! :D
Listen, you incestuous porpoise, it is clear that I am in your head since only two possibilities exist here; either you are running amok in defence of being thoroughly exposed by my clear-sighted perfection or you are (albeit rather poorly) attempting reverse psychology by pretending that you are not attempting to do reverse psychology. Next thing you know you will try to influence the suggestion of taking a navel picture or something ridiculous like that.
TL: +1
Hanover: -2
Your also so tempted to correct my misuse of "it's" and "your" in this post, and your actuallu pissed its intentional because you can't flaunt you're grammatical smartness.
Hanover 6, TL a crying widdle baby.
She can get you for the incorrect spelling of "actually", though.
Nice try but not buying. Anyway dol phin bad, Han, we can't all be literate.
Quoting Baden
There's a joke somewhere here about snappy piranhas.
Just lying in the gutter shooting for the stars as usual. :)
Quoting Hanover
With:
Quoting Hanover
All I see is 'wah wah wah' like a sad trombone.
Quoting Hanover
Here is a picture of my legs that is kicking your ass with my dog kicking your dogs ass.
Hanover: -3
Yeah, thank you, I'm not a lawyer like Hanover and yourself :-}
Okay, I wanna normalize that, though I think girl navels are pretty hot, I think that necks, lower backs, hands, those are all my favorites.
C'mon, your turn.
Genetics, I suppose. I like her big eyes.
Yep, gloves are off.
And that brings me to your hands. Despite all I said about your dog (which I don't regret by the way), your hands appear as the most delightful weightless angelic instruments I have ever seen. I am truly taken aback. Might you show me more angles of those heavenly wonders?
Hanover 10
TimeLine 10 (I would be remiss in not rewarding you for those amazing digits of yours, one point for each).
WRONG! Your cat has big eyes because it's a God damned idiot.
I'm hardly emaciated, I'm likely about 15% body fat, which is decent, but I sure would like to be more like 10%, but I'd have to take up running, or daily cartio, dehydrate myself, or something. Most of the pics you see of people super shredded, they aren't like that all the time, that shit is hard to maintain, and still have the food energy to stand up straight.
Lets see yours though, don't be shy.
I like doing the hitt cartio, and some of those dudes look pretty huge, but they talk about burning joints from built up lactic acid, and you can see them not strongly pressing into their frame, don't rival my alignment in my view, they gotta access that demon energy, and lift up the core.
Jesus, do I really have to break all this down for you?
Thank the Lord!
As least give us another glimpse of them lady hips, I'm jelly.
Implying that you're a dickhead? :P
You just keep setting me up today.
The extent of her rightness is certainly questionable. The purpose, I suspect, is to put on a better show. Moderates are so boring.
But I was quoting her from one of those associated videos that pop up in YouTube. One were she talks about the ‘white lives matter’ rally in Tennessee. That was another odd show. I only watched part of it but she seemed to be suggesting that if these white supremacists were to improve their optics (dress in their Sunday best) their message would be better received. She may understand the concept of optics but she’s clueless when it comes to branding. A suit and tie is unlikely to resonate with the average redneck moron, their target audience.
"When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute - and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity." 8-)
She isn't a moderate, I'm not a moderate either in fact. Most people would call me right-wing, or even far-right, even though I actually am not. Wosret is more right-wing than me >:O
Quoting praxis
Didn't see that one.
Check out this timeless Fox.
He said before cheating on his wife, again.
"B. You will renounce all personal relations with me insofar as they are not completely necessary for social reasons. Specifically, You will forego:
1. my sitting at home with you;
2. my going out or travelling with you."
On the the list of demands he gave his wife, so he didn't mean her.
I'm just saying, that he used his rock star status as a celebrity scientist to routinely cheat on his wife, and had a list of demands that he gave her, including the demand that she forego sitting with him... so he clearly didn't mean her when he said that.
Haven't been to the doctor in years, not even sure if my medical card works, have to try to gets checked out tomorrow after work.
As your dog repeatedly barks at every Tom, Dick and Harry that walks past the house, my dog would silently walk over and with his excessive skin smother your stupid mutt like a pillow in a homicidal movie scene, soundless just like my hound.
Quoting Hanover
I see you have taken to a new approach, knowing the jump from feet to lips was a colossal mistake.Alas, reverse psychology is as much a fail as being sycophantic. I'm not as gullible as @Wosret so you must find the right approach with someone as witty and clever as me.
Urgh. (N)
Manager: TL, tomorrow is Halloween and we're going to have a theme day at work so make sure you dress up! It will be lots of fun.
TL: Oh, really? Sounds like fun.
Tuesday
TL to Manager' Voicemail: Hi, sorry, I am feeling terribly unwell. I could not sleep all last night so I am going to head over to the doctors today.
Five minutes later
TL to Friend on Messenger: I pulled a sickie today, wanna go have breakfast and watch a movie afterwards?
TL Friend: I'll pick you up once I drop the kids off to school.
WIN.
:D
Take pity on me, and my economic views, I might have a tumor. Think I'll live?
There is something of a link between eye blood vessels and brain hemorrhages I read, like they can tell the health and strength of the brain ones by looking at the eye ones, but most of the time it's benign. Haven't forgotten words yet, wish I have sleepiness, so I'm fine so far. My uncle died in his early thirties from a brain hemorrhage though.
I'll see a doctor about it tomorrow, I don't work tomorrow night, and wanna get some sleep before work tonight. Canadian hospitals are free, but there is no telling how long of a wait you'll have without an appointment. Could be six hours.
Crazy though as I have been watching this show where by applying drops on your eyes, you can experience any experience in life you want to.
Hmm, hopefully, that experience the person desired was to experience getting drops applied to the eyes.
Good. In the meantime, try not to die.
I remember that, and thought about it too. I want to experience the one where I'm immortal, and immune to health problems.
On the up side quitting smoking seems to actually magically be working, it's like day four now, which is the longest I've gone in a long long time, for some reason it isn't even that hard, like before. I think because I like scared myself by looking at all of the before and after pictures of smokers and recovery, and how shitty my skin has been looking, and know that I lose circulation and sensitivity in my hands and feet, and cannot easily maintain it. For whatever reason, it hasn't been a super hard battle so far, I feel resigned.
Kudos to you! Kicking any habit is hard but especially smoking.
Quoting Wosret
Unlikely at your age, especially in the absence of other symptoms. If you had a severe brain haemorrhage, you'd be in a coma by now. Minor one, you'd get worse in 8-12hrs. If neither of that, unlikely to be anything, but better check with a doctor.
Do you have a blood pressure meter? (if not you should invest in one - good machine) You could check for a very wide difference between systolic and diastolic (they call it pulse pressure, 60-80+ difference) which could be indicative of increased intracranial pressure.
They have blood pressure machines at the mall, in the pharmacies. Last I checked it was all pretty good, and even as a smoker my heart rate is only like high 60s, low 70s last time I checked like a month ago.
It's not a very constant thing though. I mean some people have high blood pressure at certain times in the day, and normal at others. Ideally, you'd measure it 3 times a day for like 1-2 weeks to get an idea. Some people even have a BP holter monitor, which they wear for a 24h period to see how it changes through the day. I've had to wear an EKG holter before.
Your pulse sounds normal. Mine is low 60s or high 50s. But can be higher after eating, etc.
My BP also tended to be towards the higher, and still is. I have 130/80 or even 140/80 sometimes. But I've always been like this, no known cause.
Actually, >:O I think that was @Terrapin Station
99% of accounts on this forum are me. I like to talk to myself.
Yes, including this one and the other one that I didn't create.
Lol, I know I'm at least one of those people, alright, laters.
You are so under my spell, thinking you freely chose to send me the dog pic. I so manipulated that out of you.
There is a way for you to free yourself from this mind control, but you don't want to hear it. Or do you?
This must be so maddening infuriating exasperating arousing that you can't think straight.
The 'general philosophy' category is for discussions which are philosophical, [i]but do not fit any of the specialisms[/I].
Maybe, as a mod, send this to specific offenders, rather than complain to the unwashed masses that gather here in the gutter?
Nice job editing that to sound less complaining. :-$
Come now, old horse, surely I am two steps ahead of you. I know exactly how to madden, infuriate, exasperate and arouse to a point that the other fails to think straight, but that is precisely where I begin to experience the boredom of predictability. That dog pic was merely an enticement knowing it would weaken you to want more of what you cannot have, leading to yet another fail; I am no capitalist, you cannot sell me an idea as though I want it.
Sun Tzu has taught me well.
Did you just... say... a joke? Can it be real? Did I just witness the birth of a sense of humour?
Plot twist: Agustino is actually Sapientia.
This only applies as long as there is enough demand for you or you have monopoly on the meat market. Newer models are coming, you know.
After these days are gone you'll become the annoying cat lady with this skill set.
Quoting TimeLine
Ahhh! I see what you've done! You taunt me with the horse reference knowing I can't resist the obvious sophomoric jokes that so define all that is Hanover.
Quoting TimeLine
Capitalism is not a choice, but part of the inescapable state of nature. You will mindlessly shop for that perfect new purse (or whatever it is that chicks do) regardless of what misguided manifesto you have read.
Quoting TimeLine
Stop being pretentious. You actually studied Michael Scott, if truth be told, a much wiser thinker:
https://youtu.be/DX5G47mhM28
It is a choice. I choose to buy Lorna Jane just like you choose to buy leather shoes, in order to fit in and the inescapable part is the ideological part, the imagined part.
Don't call me a chick. Otherwise I will reciprocate, only I will remove the ch from the word and add a d.
It would seem the financial incentives of capitalism are working well if you're willing to push yourself for the reward of a designer purse.
Quoting TimeLine
I do like me a good word puzzle.
It is not convincing yourself that you are not capitalistic, but rather being conscious that you are, which leads to the whole Neo/Cypher choice; the daunting and isolating desert of the real, or the delicious steak of ignorance. There are those that wear Nike shoes because others are and they want to be like others because they are taught that being like others will bring happiness and indeed, the comradeship that follows this agenda only adds to the burden that the ideology is real. In the end, it is this comradeship that people want and capitalism is merely a system driven by this desire.
This overlooks the Ebenezer Scrooge personality, where it's control they want, screw everyone else. That personality may be a rarer stereotype than people assumes exists, but it does exist.
@TranscendedRealms, @jancanc, @darthbarracuda, @XanderTheGrey
Always fact checking. Lorna Jane doesn't sell purses, Hanover, but they do have a line of sport bras you might find interesting to project onto your imagined figure of TimeLine.
Lorna Jane's idea of an accessory is a decorated water bottle to keep the hot Lorna Jane consumers adequately hydrated. Unfortunately, there are lots of phthalates in designer water bottles, and chemicals found in PVC flooring, plastic shower curtains, processed food and other trappings of modern life LIKE Lorna Jane water bottles may be sapping women’s interest in sex, never mind what it is doing to the male brain.
@Thorongil paged me about this a week ago. Are you saying that Pete, whoever that is, shouldn't take medication, get a job, have meaningful relationships in order to overcome depression? Also, I'd have to know what sort of depression you're attempting to describe - situational depression, seasonal depression, chronic depression, run-of-the-mill blues, etc.
I am being plagued by a headache that no amount of painkillers can banish.
He maybe should do some of those things, or maybe not. It depends on his particular situation.
Quoting Buxtebuddha
Major Depressive Disorder.
Slippery, non answer, this >:O
Quoting Agustino
Okay, but that's a big term.
Who's Pete anyway? Wos, Question, ?
I was actually not being two faced when I was happy the Popo did that.
Cute dog!
Hello TPF, here an old-forum-sometimes-poster from Montreal coming back for more punishment.
#JusticeforMews
That's what she said...
Seriously, 2 minutes and no one... what kind of non toxic shoutbox is this?
*Continues wallowing*
Your family plays rough.
I usually solve my issues by moving across the continent without saying and not contacting anyone for a couple of years.
*Wallows shamelessly*
It's fine as long as it's an aesthetic form of wallowing. Ask a Cynic.
There is truth in the art of wallowing. Just realize that most philosophers are quite literally mad and wallowing becomes an art.
I have experienced pain that resulted in heartbreak and self-pity and indeed it is useful when you are in a serious crises and seek to cocoon yourself like a caterpillar and find a way to heal, but eventually you need to break out the silk shield and begin again.
I actually pretend to be worse than I am. So is my splendor.
*Wallows in joy.*
The last temptation of the Buddha is enlightenment, to maintain enlightenment, and say fuck the world, on the true knowledge that it will not be a message that can be conveyed. Brahma appears, and pleads with the Buddha to attempt it anyway, as the amount of people that will be saved isn't zero. So, then the Buddha does not wallow in enlightment, and thus the Buddha surpasses the Buddha.
Some people just have a better-developed prefrontal cortex. Continues wallowing...
Jordan B. Peterson, obviously.
Quoting Buxtebuddha
Well, it's not slippery, it's what I have said ever since the very beginning if you read the context.
Yes, your misery must be indicative of your genius.
Yeah, I wish! Read my latest thread, On 'drugs', if you would like to know otherwise.
Oh, then you must take this new drug for ADHD, here ya go. That'll be a hundred Canadian dollars, please.
*Wallows profusely.*
My sister thinks I have some hyper-activity disorder. People often shit on me for all the dancing I do, but fuck them. Go rain on someone else's parade.
Tell them, Fick dich, du Arschloch!
*Continues wallowing*
Even the Nazis, which exploited meth in pills called 'Pervitin', found out that it wasn't worth the hassle soon after dispensing them to troops. I heard the Allies started giving it to their own troops because they didn't feel like shooting at the 'ubermensch' attacking them. Keep in mind that what you see in Hollywood films, is actually a small percentage of people actually wanting to shoot at enemies at all.
Yeah, a significant percentage of people won't kill someone else, under any circumstance, even when their life is in danger, it's why conscription doesn't work.
Yeah, a lot of socio-cultural [s]brainwashing[/s] ehem 'conditioning', has been going on since WWII.
You mean since time immemorial, and it's got us both. The ones you see aren't the ones to be worried about.
I'm not sure this is true. Self-defense is an instinct. If someone starts attacking you, for example, you will instinctively either fight back or run away (if possible). So I'm not sure where you take this from. I think quite the contrary, it takes a lot of re-education in order to block the natural instinct of fighting back or running away when in danger.
It's fight or flight, not just fight. It isn't even just those to, there is also freeze, as in do nothing at all. If it were just the one, then everything on earth would just do the one, but since there are the three, there is variation.
Yeah, fight or flight, but if flight is impossible (which is what we were discussing - you said "under any circumstance"), then they will fight no? Freeze seems to be just what sometimes happens in response to the impossibility of flight and the presence of an overwhelming threat that cannot be dealt with through fight.
I misspoke, not under any circumstance tout court, but under any war circumstance, with guns and stuff. Someone shooting at them, someone shooting their friends. Probably not like just holding them down, and not hurting them enough to incapacitate them, and letting the actual physical pressure build.
Freezing isn't really a response, tho, isn't it. Except perhaps against a T-rex with movement based-vision?
The state of intense terror which disables proper responses isn't itself a response.
The idea that a large percentage of armed forces won't actually try to kill the soldiers of the enemy force when doing battle with them has always seemed a bit suspect. You don't need to try to kill enemy soldiers 100% of the time in battle. Shooting in the air at nothing plays it's purpose as covering fire, and if you make the enemy retreat without killing it, you've still won by most standards.
Semantics. Freezing is a thing that can happen that isn't the other two things.
Well, I've heard it, based on info from Vietnam, and conscription means being forced into it, placed there against your will. It makes sense to me, and incredulity isn't a disproof, which I'm of course willing to accept, but people just telling me that they don't think that is true, well, I dunno what to say. I've heard it, and it seems right. It isn't so apodictic that I'd say anyone is ignorant for disbelieving it, but I do have some sources for it, so I'd need more than incredulity to think it's wrong.
Except it doesn't. When you're overwhelmed by so much fear, and you see aggression as a possibility to get rid of that fear by killing off the enemy, wouldn't your natural instinct be towards aggression?
Quoting Agustino
Lol, what?
>:O lol, didn't mean that it doesn't make sense to you, meant that as in it doesn't make much sense to me.
Messed that up again... *facepalm* lol
I just think that it makes sense, I retracted the stronger unqualified claim, and would rather say that in a war scenario, enough hesitation and inaction makes it not practically different.
Maybe, although in the war situation, you're typically not alone shooting at the enemy, you'd be in a group. So wouldn't a person typically give in to peer pressure and follow what the others are doing generally, even though they don't like it or agree with it? That's similar to what prison guards in gulags and concentration camps did many times.
Again, I've heard that a significant amount of people actually didn't shoot people in Vietnam, I don't think that one can reason things into and out of existence, so that is really really powerful to me. I'd have to have actual contrary data to shake that.
Okay, fair enough. I've never talked with people who were conscripted in a war by force, so I really don't have much experience with this, so no point contradicting you.
They aren't even disobeying, too. If the order is to "shoot", then shooting 20 feet above the enemy line still counts as shooting. And it's not exactly like it doesn't contribute, since volume of fire has been the first determinant factor in winning unsupported infantry engagement since WWII.
I can see how many people could not want to kill enemy soldiers even during a war. If Trudeau started a war against Maine tomorrow and I got conscripted, I wouldn't want to shoot anyone. But I wouldn't give back Jay Peak either. But war is not really a controlled experiment, where you can isolate the pressures at play on the individual's behaviour, so I don't think it should be taken as a test case here.
Responses to threat fall in two category : fight or flight. If a behaviour displayed doesn't fall broadly within those two (very large) categories, then it should be taken as a sign of defect in those response mecanism, or as a sign toward an additionnal property of the stimulus which disables the mecanism, i.e. psychological attacks.
Which Province are you in?
I'm in Alberta, how's aboot you?
Québec, Montréal to be precise. I lived in Red Deer for something like 5 years, tho. I remember getting blizzard during Halloween back then too. Gotta love it.
I'm from the maritimes, but have lived here for about the past five years. Yeah, we don't get spring or fall here, it just moves from summer to winter in a week.
"And, to go even a step further, is the practice of fist-fucking not the exemplary case of what Deleuze called the "expansion of a concept?" The fist is put to a new use; the notion of penetration is expanded into the combination of the hand with sexual penetration, into the exploration of the inside of a body. No wonder Foucault, Deleuze's Other, was practicing fisting: is fist-fucking not the sexual invention of the twentieth century, a new model of eroticism and pleasure? It is no longer genitalized, but focused just on the penetration of the surface, with the role of the phallus being taken over by the hand, the autonomized partial object par excellence. "
- Slavoj Zizek
If you could make a snowball and throw it for me, I would appreciate it! 8-) We are still rockin in the 80 degree range
Sorry, but you'll have to pay tariffs on the import of that precious white gold.
Suck it Boeing.
I'll pay a tariff on the snow but considering Boeing is a likely future employer of one of my children, whose education I am funding, I will hold my tongue when it comes to saying anything but wonderful things about Boeing. 8-)
What kind of money are we talking?
AH! Spoken like a great mom (Y)
What kind of snowball are we talking?
Mmm bowling ball size
Look, if you promise to do your best to convince Trump not to drop NAFTA, I'll drop the tariffs.
That's what it was going to be all about in the end anyways, right? :s
Also, tell Ivanka to stop looking at Justin that way. He's taken.
I would love to do my best to convince Trump not to drop NAFTA if Canadians agree to not be insulted when an American refers to Canada as the USA's little sister. Fair?
Quoting Akanthinos
My bet is on a wet box arriving in the Desert Southwest from Canada with a label on it saying that it was inspected by the Canadian Mail system.
Quoting Akanthinos
I will let her know, I am sure the news will crush her. If she persists, you let me know and I will head to the barn and get some horse blinders for her and start Bedazzling them.
Do you have Justin's credit card #? Because these blinders are going to DAZZLE everyone who lays eyes on her.
Welcome. Although it's too bad you're not, say, To Mega Therion. Why can't you be To Mega Therion? Or sheps - remember him? Ah, the good ol' days...
I slightly remember a sheps, but not a To Mega Therion. Désolé.
Not true. Every time I take care of myself, I grow breasts. Each time they're more magnificent than the last. Then when don't give a shit, I grow bold like a horse.
I liked Sheps and xzjoel and Maia, the self proclaimed eyeless girl. Then there was the person who said she was a 17 year old girl who suffered from perennial hotness, and she couldn't figure out how to live in a normal world being so sexy.
Then there was Hanover. A giant of a man, legs like oak trees, a voice like thunder. He died though to the steam engine. True story.
Balls. If you were to have said "balls", then I think that that would have been a better fit. Balls like a horse - what a lovely thought. Almost as lovely as the thought of Hanover with breasts.
I tell you this in case you needed some pointers to improve your game, assuming you pursue drunks. I'm not really sure she is a drunk, which makes my behavior like really right or really wrong. That's the problem with telling it like it is. It not be like be like you thought it is.
Thank you for bothering with the accent marks.
You're welcome.
Why did Sheps not continue on? School, was it? To Mega Therion had some specific reason -- nothing to do with sexism or gender imbalance in the forum -- something to do with his life, work, the oscillating grundi ...
Most of the reason for why it is possible to escape is because of habit. The more time you spend in pure remembering not to forget, the easier it gets, the more frequency it occurs with. The thing is, the more time you spend reflecting both in duration, and frequency, but just because it mainly just reduces the probability of forgetting the difference, but it could still, and with inevitability most certainly will occur anyway if you spend any time at all there from the point of remembering and unword.
The difference is that in one moment, you're creating that knowledge brand new, and in the other something merely correlates to your understandings of scenes, and previous creative events of understanding in relation to them, as echoed memories. So that in the former case, something brand new, and totally accurate in every fucking way, because it is reality and not a memory of it is taking place.
So, this means that the more time you spend remembering ways to create the understanding in terms of signs and images the more likely it will become that you'll forget the difference. Memories also decay, they get more wrong with time. So stuff getting repeated, and not reiterated by you, and by the group, then it always decays over time, and gets wronger, and wronger.
I member those dudes though, they were pretty cool.
Mayhap.
Quoting Bitter Crank
Yes, something like that. Perhaps he went back into the sea from which he came.
Welcome, whoever you purport to be.
We were just talking about decorum, in the "Let's get rid of Kevin" thread. Some people thought Sapientia was not nice to people. I suppose this back-handed welcome would be an example.
It's probably best if we all just go ahead and step boldly on each other's toes, instead of pussy-footing.
Yeah, saw that thread.
Meh, it's fine for Sapientia's welcome. We all have someone we wish we could reconnect with.
I wonder what Zizek would have to say about pussy-footing?
How could they think such a thing? I'm the nicest thing since sliced breast.
You know, I really wish I had never read "The Crossed".
I really miss the seasons mostly because of the seasonal change that allows you to age. Arizona is one long, bright day with heat that is just about to give into *80 and offer a cold snap of *75.
Definitely wish that it was hotter, or sunnier. :( . I need some vitamin C, bad.
(Y)
The polar opposite, on the other hand, with a cavernous pulsating love canal coupled with dime sized, useless man nipplets, neither helpful to feed the young nor terribly helpful during arousal, would be the most useless beast, far worse than Hitler.
Sad? Sad doesn't begin to plumb the depths.
If you go see White Christmas, be sure to bring some dramamine and insulin -- yule need a couple of doses before the thing is over.
He's a good thinker, as long as one doesn't have to watch him or listen to him.
Quoting Hanover
That's probably the most poetic thing you've ever said. Beats the hell out of your Limericks anyhow.
Really? lol.
Quoting Agustino
I didn't do that.
Boz Scaggsby? :)
That's what happened to me, too.
Geez, we're kind of like virtual sisters you and I. I can just see this happy montage of us two shopping together to theme music as we pick out some fabulously cheeky underclothing together.
[hide="Reveal"]
Good show indeed. Where shall we shop?
Yep lol .
Quoting Buxtebuddha
Clearly! ;)
>:O >:O >:O
My point is simple: it's 2017 and the days of hate (i.e. h8) you harken back to have, thank Zeus, been replaced with a striking of labels and an acceptance of people as they are.
How many times must we have this talk?
Oh my that is the exact song that just rips my heart right out of my chest. When my Grampa was in the service he said that "White Christmas" was his favorite song because it reminded him of back home, where he really wanted to be. Now? It makes me long for him to be back in the living again. ~nose scrunch so the tears don't drop~ You know what I speak of~ (L)
Hah haven't seen that one. And for that matter, haven't seen Der Untergang either.
I saw it in the movie theater. After it ended, it was dead quiet as people were processing it and then they actually applauded. I can't remember that ever happening with another movie.
Cool, I'll look into it! I've never been to a movie where that happened before.
No, but my webcam and mini iPad camera have a sticker on top of them the whole time ;)
Phone one doesn't, but there's nothing I can do about that. I need to take pictures with phone quite often, so that's life. Can't protect everything.
If your phone is smart enough to take pictures, it is smart enough to be turned into a listening device, even if your phone is turned off.
Watch the movie :-O
Yeah, I am aware of that. That's why I behave in such a way such that even if somebody was listening, it wouldn't be a problem. And obviously, if having an important discussion, I'll leave the phone out of the room :D .
Any help appreciated.
At least there are rare sightings of me ;)
By the way, granted that you stalk the internet for me, are you looking to ask me out? >:O
You really are the King of Awkward.
I'm still pondering while my stay in Poland as to why I haven't been to at least one Woodstock.
Edit: Baden just wrote this to me the other day:
"Expect your unpleasant comments to be moderated in future even in the shoutbox. The drunk excuse isn't going to work anymore. And consider this a warning that the penalty for ugly sexism is banning."
Say to the judge that you are stressed, and that you hate being put in the position of having to side with one parent against the other. Say that you need your mother's support, and you need to live at home. Say that your mental health is at stake, because it is. Like Hanover said, "Tell the truth..."
Very doubtful. Do you present me the challenge of beating It?
@TimeLine, please say yes! ;)
On a serious note, what the fuck are they are all doing? While I found the initial duranguense-style dancing man with his oversized blue bathers filled with dirty water to merit a small chuckle, the poor gollum-creature looked like he was in serious distress.
And, no. I may be a tough cookie, but dip me in a cup of tea and i'll crumble to bits. I still don't look at sex scenes in m-rated films, so you win. Let's leave it at that.
Quoting Agustino
Quoting TimeLine
That's how you play TimeLine, tell her to do one thing, you know she'll do the opposite ;)
The problem here is the idea that you think you can tell me what to do. Hanover asked. You cannot "play" me when I am not playing along with you, but even so, I will always be two steps ahead of you.
No run along to bed and let the grown-ups have their discussion.
OK :D
Re the video, I'm on the side of the guy they tried to mock. I hate jock humour and whoever made the video deserves a kick in the nuts as far as I'm concerned. So, I'd happily join forces with "Gollum" on a revenge mission. Death to the jocks! Vive les Gollums!
Are...
Are you ever nice to people? :s
The only akward thing about this video is the strange notion that dancing in a pool of dirty water is any fun at all.
I'll only answer that question when @Agustino answers whether he is always annoying to people.
No, I am only annoying to TimeLines, since they have funny reactions when they are annoyed :D O:)
Those servants of Sauron. Wicked, tricksy, jockses.
Join then my rebel army of freaks and outcasts! We shall overrun the jockses and rule them with an iron fist enforcing a ban on all video games (except minesweeper :B), restricting muscle mass to [appropriately low levels which I can't be bothered to Google], and outlawing all sports involving balls! It will be a nirvana of suppressive weirdness and non-violence (except towards jockses)!
She is really cute for her age, she is Holistic in nature and a Pisces. What can I tell her about you? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh and she can never know that I am the one behind this possible love connection, NicK would have my head!
They are dancing in a shit pond, except for Boxcar Willie, who, after murdering a family and creating a Norman Rockwell dinner table scene (albeit headless) for the cleaning lady to happen upon the following day, will be jumping the next train to play his harmonica and tell his romantic tale, unencumbered by the binds of responsibility that oppress the rest of us.
His is a song of freedom, unfortunately harmonized with the background tones of serial murder and the impregnable sadness it predictably brings. We all laugh at first when we hear of It, but realize a few days later when we begin to realize the butchered will never return that we also realize our laughter ought have at least been mild disappointment, if not eternal mourning.
I'm rising to my self created challenge to create a more disconcerting post here than what you saw on the video. Successful?Quoting TimeLine
Well my Victorian princess, allow me to tell you what occurs when you shield your eyes. The man is writhing atop the woman rhythmically as a sign of affection, which culminates into a protracted legal battle and child support payments. It is neither romantic nor erotic, but irresponsible conduct not worth the lifetime consequences. Some wish to watch train wrecks, but your decision to avert your eyes understandable.
Speaking of trains, have I shared with you the magical fun of our favorite hobo Boxcar Willie?
Including SEX??? :s
For all matters pertaining to sex, please consult our resident solicited and unsolicted advisor, Dr. Hanover, above.
I quote,
"this is a mental health problem at the highest level".
I wonder what he's saying
He's saying, "Mental health is crooked... [i]crooked[/I]... and... let me tell you, we're going to make mental health great again... we're going to drain the swamp on mental health... and we're going to win bigly... [I]bigly[/I]... trust me, I'm a smart guy... I've made billions... and I have the best words... [I]the best[/I]...", accompanied by the usual tiny hand gestures.
He's saying don't blame guns because the NRA doesn't like when you blame guns, and he's saying he's not going to do anything about guns, so don't even talk about guns or it'll make him look bad. (I presume as that's the usual Republican thing. I'm not going to get into it again anyhow.)
He's saying "Impeach me so I can go back to my leisurely life. My ego won't let me resign."
If only...
You initiated the gripping tale of murder only to thicken the plot with Boxcar Willie telling his romantic tale to... well, who? Is this person at risk of becoming headless, where like Garland 'The Marietta Mangler' Greene will wear the head like a hat as he drives down route 66?
Quoting Hanover
Now, this was disconcerting. *cools herself with a Victorian fan
That wasn't what [I]I[/I] was suggesting. He has a better intellect and is of a better political persuasion, but I was merely suggesting that I'd love to see Trump fired by Lord Sugar after being given a good roasting.
At least I can take relief in the fact that we voted to remain a member of the European Union, and that we now have a Labour government.
Wait...
I never said that about Trump becoming President ;)
Quoting Sapientia
>:O lol.
That's a funny way to spell LibDem.
That will soon become an archaic term, if it hasn't already.
Yeah. Soon they'll just be called The Government.
Time for a reality check!
What about those Hawaiians who voted for Trump?
Man, if the marxists come you're the first one to go! >:)
Too much such.
Like that mangy guy near the bottle shop who thought John Carroll was Brian Schatz? When I was there not too long ago, the democrats were the majority. It is the Aloha way.
You can't do this to me! I have the rest of the week off and I am going to enjoy my holiday at home in my trackiedacks, slowly eating that giant pack of doritos and having a fight with that stupid bird squawking outside my window every morning. Brush your shoulders off and see the good in all this... I'll... I'll show you a picture of my elbow if that helps?
Don't fret! I managed to get only two of the things on my to-do list done, which took about an hour, before returning here. Procrastination is my forte.
Quoting TimeLine
There's no problem which can't be resolved with an elbow. Elbow is the new black.
How dare you. I would have you know that my elbows are perfectly proportioned cubital nodes as smooth as a baby's bottom. Many would die just to get a glimpse of these soft, round, arthritis-free capsules of perfection.
I only travel on TRUMPtrain :-O - guess that means I'm not welcome in Hawaii.
Well, I've escaped those Marxists already, so hopefully, they're not coming back >:O .
Quoting Sapientia
Just 2.
Quoting TimeLine
That is just like me, I couldn't tell the difference between the two for my life :s - some weird names I've heard for the first time in my life.
Don't lie, you are only on the Trumptrain because you know it will annoy people, and you love annoying people :P
No, it's rather because I see in Trump someone like me, who everyone counts out, but who doesn't give up and ultimately finds a way to win. Watching Trump was frankly inspirational.
Let us hope that it is not my sleepiness this early Australian morning with a loud bird squawking outside my window that makes me think that if you see Trump as someone like you, then you like fake tans and wear a toupee? A rather unsavoury look in my opinion.
Otherwise, we'll come to this discussion again in a few years when you will come to see that his determination to win is pointless as his mistakes begin to manifest. Until then, monsieur toupée...
How did you go from liking his determination and perseverance to liking his looks? :-O
Agustino is like Trump? So much for the good Christian then.
No, no, they like, as their name states, to be right :D
Too much nevertheless.
Quoting Agustino
From riches to riches.
From riches to rags to riches.
And, hopefully, soon, to prison-orange rags...?
What? With regard to Trump? If so, when was the "rags" stage in Trump's life?
Ah, so "rags" with scare-quotes, then.
Yes, like "President".
I think I'm getting the hang of this.
Where would you take him? To a romantic candle lit dinner for two at your favourite restaurant, or to a room in a cheap hotel?
Ego,... the leading ego of the free world, the highest level indeed.
I noticed that when the news story was aired on TV last night, that phrase was edited out(dark forces).
Were you watching Fox? I bet it was Fox.
Do you get Fox across the pond?
Although that didn't stop Ofcom from ruling yesterday that they broke the rules back in January and May.
If they still want to watch it, youtube has CNN, FOX, and BBC all streaming live for no cost as it is just someone sharing their view of the paid for show. Kind of like Morpheus was to music in it's hay day.
If someone wants to watch the news then why would they want to watch Fox? Isn't it just angry people shouting?
Because CNN is mind numbing, BBC isn't bad but doesn't always follow the same news stories to the depths that CNN or FOX would and FOX? When watching FOX you have to know when you are watching a report of the news or an opinion show that talks about the news, which is where most of the shouting and talking over each other happens.
Lovely
Do we get to place bets? Maybe some live streaming on youtube and you've got yourselves a business model.
No, Michael Vick, we don't get to place bets. However I am having to weigh the downside risk in my trying to break up a dog fight (which one should never do) with what the Vet bills will be vs what my medical bills will be. Right now? Separation is key....hmmm....that's not bad advice for this idea of snow birding at our ranch.
Help me...
SEXISSSSSMMMMMMMMMMM!
*cough*
Sorry. O:)
>:O
I try so hard to be unpleasant, and you are still not satisfied. It is the cliched essence of womanhood to be insatiable, and this old man is unsurprised.
... Only the good ones?
Seriously, guys, why do you set me up like that.
I am not sexist. I am... gender bias. Wait, hang on:
Quoting Akanthinos
Hence...
No, no. I said weird old horse. Get it right, for crying out loud.
Quoting unenlightened
Indeed, your unpleasantness does not satiate the content of my apprenticeship to master the rather elusive masculine subconscious. I am no man-eater, however. I am just curious.
Professional relationship up until now?
Does he "train" you?
Will you have to encounter him again even if the date goes south?
Mmmm might not be worth the risk of temporary pleasure for a ....what was he again? Younger and attractive?
It is impossible for there to be any risk of temporary pleasure because I am not of that sort. What I am sick of is the shock of how, out of nowhere, someone confirms their affection towards me. I thought he was gay and that he was unresponsive and awkward because of personality.
This is why I find difficult to appreciate how people have accepted the idea that you can learn to become friends after intimacy; how does this pleasure precede a friendship? It's strange.
I don't care if it goes south and @Agustino the answer is yes. Ok, well, there you go. The answer must be another no.
That doesn't surprise me
Even if you are not of that sort, he may very well be as you suggest.
I say: Why put yourself in that position?
And can you take him if needed?
Yeah, how dare I appreciate girls who happen to have a compatible libido to mine?
What about discussion shows frustration?
Young mare, you must accept you're light years ahead of us old stallions even in your youth. If you want sophistication and savvy, chat with your friends over wine. If it is the endearing awkwardness of eternal juvenile efforts and antics, you will have stables of choices. Don't fight it or even begrudgly tolerate it. Embrace it. Such has been the case since you talked us into eating the apple.
Continue like this and I'll start calling you body parts too.
You clearly have very little reading comprehension. Your answer doesn't actually reply to anything I stated.
When I was a young man, the normal way for two gay guys to begin a relationship was to have sex first. Of course sex didn't always lead to a relationship, just as having a relationship doesn't always lead to sex. If two people have good sex, it might be time to trade telephone numbers.
I tried to embrace the strange specimen that is man, but the awkwardness of the juvenile efforts and antics pulled me through a portal to such a deranged realm that it took me several years just to get over the question "why?" Why would anyone do that? And not wine or even savvy sophistication; just friendship first and surely that is not a strange thing? It prevents making any errors in judgement and the experience all the more enjoyable and honest. Waking up this morning to an awkward text message sent in the early hours of the morning is not my idea of mutual affection.
I have not yet had sex and that is the problem here, I refuse to despite my attractiveness and it is certainly not that I am unwilling or uninterested, I am just sick of the bursts of out-of-the-blue spasmodic displays of affection and the refusal to get to know me as a friend first. My best friend is gay and he too has cautiously informed me of this reality in the gay community and it works in stark contrast to what I believe, which is that good sex is impossible with a mutual affection and admiration. It is just sex and that makes my ego sick because I am no object.
That is such bs....you guys wanted to eat the apple. I mean at least admit it....
Stay tuned and try to read between the lines. The age range that is either frustrated or over indulging is vast and our experiences different.
A good libido is hard to find. ;)
You talk a lot of rubbish.
It may be rubbish to you but it is not rubbish in my world.
Yes, indeed. Is that why I envision Cher whenever I read your posts?
And, just to be precise, I mentioned a libido which is compatible with mine... There's no absolute statement about how a girl should be hidden in there.
Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff
I'll watch out for the signs. Although, to be honest, I kinda feel that some very retrograde reactions in the On Drugs thread kinda shows what you refer to. I guess that's what they mean by intersectionnality...
Like speaking indirectly to someone?
It's on the 16th.
Speaking indirectly to someone has always been a great sign of libidinal tension, so I have no clue what you are on about. >:)
My strength is with you to state the truth about yourself and your Mom's needs. I was on Father number 3 by age 8 so if you need someone to vent to, feel free to PM me. (L)
With enough compartmentalizing it has provided me a childhood that built character in me.
Quoting TimeLine
Yes Ma'am, two gentlemen.
Thank you for you concern, and out of concern for your own morale, since you seem to react to flirtatiousness the same way a face reacts to battery acid, I've been dating on and off the same girl for the last 2 years. She's a stripper, and the only girl I've ever had relations with who did not complain about my libido being so out of phase with hers.
You can think this silly or rubbish, but it isn't.
Thanks. I think everything should work out. I'll just wallow instead of venting.
I agree, however there are trends where the likelihood of carrying the same mistakes over in adulthood are higher and I have been fervently cautious in analysing my decisions to avoid being surprised of any existential repetition. In saying that, power to you Miss Tiff (Y)
Now show me a elbow. That is exquisite subtlety befitting this group of sophomoric intellectuals that should elicit the gaga response you seek. We'll entertain you, but we're not Pavlovian dogs. Well, kinda sorta we are, but you get the gist.
Quoting Hanover
No elbow for you. I might show you navel if you answer the above.
>:O >:O >:O
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_throwing
Seriously? I mean, it's pretty obvious to anyone this wasn't a threat, direct or no.
Yes, of course, next thing you know you find @Hanover' assumption amusing that all women must be a certain way and if not she is lying... so shut the fuck up and show an elbow. I am a woman and the only way I can get answers is through flirtatious attention seeking antics. Typical.
And I am not edgy!
Ok, just so we are clear, my refering this had absolutely nothing to do with actual cases of anyone throwing acid in anyones face, for whatever reasons. It's just that I watched Let the right one in a couple of nights ago.
The only acid to face attack I'm aware of was of Yakuza's.
Quoting TimeLine
If it is true that you are receptive to men, are very attractive to men, but can't find any man, then you are probably not very nice to men. I mean had you told me you were really nice to men, but couldn't find a man, I'd have guessed you were ugly. Keeping it real is all, cuz I do likes me a belly button pic.
To be fair, because I'm all about fairness, you sort of posited a certain social ineptitude shared by all men. So, to the extent I said all women are alike, you were owed that as old fashioned comeuppance. Quoting TimeLineChange the words " the only" to "one" and you have correctly stated my position.
[hide="Reveal"]
Two subjects who want to have sex, even if they are strangers, do not become objects to each other because of that. Sure, some subjects view others as objects. Sure, sometimes sex is just sex. However, regardless of how other subjects view you, you always remain a subject, rather than object. You have proved your subject nature by resisting casual sex. It is, however, possible to engage with others sexually and remaining a subject.
Suit yourself. If you don't want to have sex, don't. I'm only saying that a person who is a subject has executive agency to engage in sex to suit his or her own requirements.
Answers to what? Philosophical questions?
It might well be you were terribly traumatized and that your fear of men is entirely justified, and that offers a reasonable explanation for why you are not nice to men. I didn't say anything about the appropriateness of your behavior. I just said what it was. I wouldn't be more receptive to justified not niceness than I would be to unjustified not niceness. If you make me a shit sandwich because it's all you've got to give or if you make it to piss me off, either way, it tastes the same.
You could be a celibate ascetic like me.
(Y)
If the objective is only for the purpose of gaining sexual gratification for yourself, the other person is the object and there is no change in the morality of this decision just because they mutually have the same objective. A loveless relationship based on economy is the same. It is absolutely not true that I am the subject regardless of how others view me; I am always an object until someone attempts to befriend me, to learn more about who I am personally, the things I like, the things I don't like just the same as when I get to know some men and find that some parts of their personality I am and am not attracted to.
Quoting Bitter Crank
My problem is that there always seems to be some justification that needs to be made for our choices, whether it is casual sex or the lack thereof. I choose this because what I find attractive is in friendship and the fact that my appearances are more appealing than the person that I am - do you know how many men have insulted me in real-life by thinking that I am dumb? - makes it hard for me.
This abovementioned issue.
Holy Jeebus riding a raptor, now I can see how it would be hard to like men if I had that attitude.
The point is you can take your image of the standard of how a woman is to you and your comparison against all women for whether they do or do not fit that standard and shove it. I should not have to say that I am nice or not-nice or that I am attractive or not-attractive, who are you to question that or make me respond to that? And what, it is ok for you to call me a liar but if I respond to that I am "not nice"? I am consciously choosing not to be nice to you to challenge your attempted point.
What I say here is not what people know of me; they just see me as the really nice single girl and I get away with it because I dress well and blend in, but I say it here as an opportunity to articulate how I feel without the real-life ramifications. And the ramifications are clear enough here.
There is no permanency or religiosity in my choice; it was initiated by accident where I was forced into independence and isolation at a very young age until I formed my own moral system based on this experience.
Because no disagreement is possible with this outlandish view of gender relations without it being attributed to mob mentality?
For crying out loud, your model doesn't even apply to how people interact with companion species, and you want to treat it as the absolute truth of how men and women relate? What a fucking joke.
Quoting Akanthinos
Your model is not the model of how people interact with companion species. Each to their own. The only joke here is the bad smell hovering around poking randomly asinine comments.
I resent this. I essentially interact with V. in the same way I interact with my cats.
The point being, if I can meet someone's dog and treat him as a subject and not an object from the get go, then I'm sure I can do so with a girl. Even if I happen to want to do things with her.
I preferred Let Me In. Better budget, and didn't have that weird scene with the puppet cats.
... I have good taste.
What is V? I hope you are not implying anatomy here.
Quoting Akanthinos
Are you comparing women to dogs?
Women are cute, dogs are cute, ergo women are dogs via the transitive property.
(Y)
Dogs have four legs, women only have one, ergo women are not dogs.
[I]Waits for the objection that missing legs are no laughing matter, because Heather Mills and stuff...[/I]
O right, so then men are, frogs?
Doesn't work. You can't apply the transitive property to possession (i.e. using the word "have"). You need to say "dogs are four-legged, women are one-legged, ergo women are not dogs" to have a sound argument.
Yes. But don't be fooled. Kissing them won't turn them into princes. Stay away.
Okay.
Dogs are four-legged, women are one-legged, ergo women do not have dogs.
Nah, most men are three-legged, which compensates for the loss. The only non-laughing matter I see in this post is that you are not like most men. Ergo, two-legged needs to be in there somewhere.
That would be unhygienic. Like having sex. With a stranger.
Quoting Posty McPostface
I agree with Posty McPosterFace above. You people are all obsessed with sex, have nothing better to talk about. Quite a useless activity that leaves you as empty-handed as you were before. If you want, we can talk about writing a book, starting a church group, starting a business, you know, something that actually changes the world for the better.
Quoting ArguingWAristotleTiff
Just like a good horse >:) >:O
Quoting Posty McPostface
Long time away brah! I never worry about things if they're more than 1 week away.
Quoting TimeLine
This one has a very strange way of determining whether to respect someone or not.
Quoting Akanthinos
Yeah, but there's a disadvantage there - how will you build a large family with a stripper? Without a good woman, your dynasty will be forgotten.
Quoting Hanover
I actually agree to some extent but I was reprimanded awhile ago for saying this :P
But TL has figured out something important, namely that the impossible object is always the one that elicits the most attraction. I'm not sure, but I would speculate that TL likes feeling men attracted to her and rejecting them, this allows her to feel power and control over them (don't hit me TL, I'm only being a good boy and speculating like a naive child who doesn't understand the adult world :D ).
>:O >:O >:O
Quoting Hanover
That's not true, since most men are not worth the time ;) . You know, I always advise my clients to look for their ideal clients, not for any clients at all. Not everyone is a prospect, and not every prospect will be a quality lead.
Quoting TimeLine
Dirty mind :P - it's most likely the initial of his girlfriend's name.
Two legs and an anaconda.
>:O
It's better than spending your time looking for anacondas :D
Good women can be strippers. Good women can be anything. It's the 21st century, man. Get with the times.
So's prayer.
Yeah, that's why the divorce rate is 50%+ , because it's 21st century :D
Interesting confession, but we're not at church, and I am certainly not a priest.
Well, I wouldn't know. I'm not here, you are, because you have a penis and therefore know more about me than I do.
I didn't know that the possession of an extra head also confers greater intelligence (and knowledge) upon the beneficiary :-}
You don't need to know. Its evolutionary. We're in the 21st century man, 2,300 years. Eventually, men automatically think they know better. It doesn't matter what I am saying, apparently you know me better than I do.
Sapientia's snake adventias are more exciting than Agustino's tiny pino.
Riiight... It's evolutionary :s :-}
Yet another highly articulate post. Like your preceding one with racist overtones. You must be congratulated.
That's not funny. Aunty Bernice died after having acid thrown in her face by a giant snake.
:s
Quoting Sapientia
Oh wow, it's possible to die like that? What kind of acid was it? What brand?
Russell. It was he who instigated the attack. I'll never forgive him.
Sorry, but don't you mean your anaconda had acid thrown on it after you used it to slap a stripper?
Right, why am I not surprised then...
Yes, my draft excluder had acid thrown on it after I used it to slap a wallpaper stripper. It's all Russell Brand's fault.
Ok, so why lie about Aunty Bernice?
Because the last birthday card she sent me had no money inside. She won't make that mistake again.
Dude, you're in your thirties.
He is? Sap is old.
No, that's me.
That seems uncalled for.
Here you go, working your magic.
Lol. No, I'm not. I haven't turned thirty yet.
How did everything suddenly become factual? You're in your thirties.
Yes, ma'am.
She's referring to notches on your bedpost.
He's in his threes? So, like, there was half a person this one time?
I am the great Hanover. That's who I am. I didn't say you weren't nice. I simply made the obvious comment that if you're nice to people, you'll attract them. I'd likely be more attractive to you if I were nicer, perhaps more considerate of your trauma, the pain produced while it was happening, the confusion produced soon thereafter, the fear that remains, and the realization that you realize it continues to impact negatively. Quoting TimeLine
Yeah, me questioning your veracity wasn't a bonding moment, but we all have our reasons, and you did convince me otherwise by opening up about your life. You stood before a group of largely introverted men and in fact presented yourself as a beautiful virgin in distress, seeking friendship and open to more. It looked attention seeking, and so I called it out. I am not sure I was wrong about what it was, but I do now believe it came more from a place of vulnerability and curiosity than manipulation, and so I was wrong in my accusatory tone and you were therefore right in your defensive response. I do find that offering reckless indictments is a catalyst to finding truth, so I'm not ready to abandon that from my quiver just yet. That tactic doesn't lead me to friendships, but more to having frienemies, where I straddle between adoration and detestation. But enough about me.
As to your other question: Should you first find a friend and fuck him silly in that order or first fuck him silly and see if he'll be your friend after that? My worldly experience tells me that if you've got a buddy, fucking him ends the buddihood 100% of the time.
One other thing, all I really meant about being nice is accepting guys for who they are. Reminding them that you are light years beyond them in emotional IQ does not build the foundation for the friendship you seek. They're just as scared, vulnerable, and friendship seeking as you, just with different limitations, and therefore similar in that they too need understanding and acceptance. Yeah, be nice. I should heal myself.
God damnit can I now get a navel pic. How much fucking game a playa gotta spit for a damn pic?
Thanks for your permission Big Boss :D
Oh right. I didn't know you were bisexual.
>:O Sounds like something Marcus Aurelius would say (or Buddha). For some reason, I think your name is Marcus. You do sound like a Marcus to me.
It's also a great place to hold Tequila while doing a body shot~ 8-)
When do you want to meet up? And by "meet up" I mean have vigorous anal sex followed by oral without any interim clean up.
I will win this battle of wits.
It's fascinating to me how one's state of mind and what it's oriented toward can determine whether what one experiences is torture or contentment.
Why did you edit your post, did you get too embarrassed? >:)
Nothing fails like prayer.
O, great Hanover, why be dishonest when the obvious reasons for your frustrated comments were because you realised I was inaccessible. Clearly, I am nice and pretty considering the subject-matter was about receiving a text message from an attractive man wanting to play tichy-touchy and while being open about my personal experiences is to consciously walk right into the possibility of being ridiculed, the overall curiosity stems from why men jump straight into wanting the tichy-touchy bit before wanting to get to know me as a friend. The only facts that you can get from that is that I have no male friends, which is true, and that clearly I do not like such objectification. Everything else that you said about being attractive or nice is nothing more than a reflection of who you are, which is, O great Hanover, a colossal pervert.
Quoting Hanover
I wouldn't want you to be any other way despite you grossing me out 95% of the time and to be fair I do thoroughly enjoy the attention, otherwise why would I speak of it? But, me questioning your idiocy is the likely response and being feminine or "pretty" and "nice" does not mean that I wont bite your head off and eat it for breakfast. By the way, that tactic doesn't lead to frienemies either, thus you should expect that by offering reckless indictments in order to expose the truth, you will only be detested and nothing more, especially if the truth is not in your favour.
Quoting Hanover
Who they are is not as simple as this generalisation. If I want to have a sustained conversation about politics or psychology, why does my emotional IQ matter? I have been insulted with derogatory opinions about my intelligence and told I am things that I am not based on presumptions about who I am that I have every right to be angry about it. I should not pity men because they fail to see me and who I am by pretending to myself that they are 'scared and vulnerable' because that is just self-defeating gobbledegook. I am scared too. Why shouldn't they be understanding?
Quoting Hanover
No.
I think the torture for some people is because the quietness enables them to hear the past shadows that they are likely running from and why some people with anxiety always tend to want noise and movement in an attempt to silence the suffering. It ultimately verifies the importance of self-reflection, but I learnt that any permanent celibacy can also be a problem because we need to have others to point out our flaws and respond back to us. It is just ensuring that you have the right others or the right people in your life, and that is where I am at the moment.
Thus, it is not a source of suffering or a source of contentment, but rather a state of frustrated indifference. I had a difficult past that first required resolving and abstinence was they key to that resolution, but now that I am of healthy mind and body, I am seeking out the right people in my life and that means being highly selective; to pursue a relationship is only possible for me when genuine feelings of love are involved.
Some women clearly do enjoy this power. Being attractive to them is the reward, and being attractive depends on rejecting men. It's a form of control over men. One could call it a narcissism - but I think the same phenomenon is at play as in the case of men. Women too chase that inaccessible object of sexual desire, whom they idealise to such an extent that he is nowhere to be found. Only that impossible ideal can satisfy.
And so we have the ample case of two beggars thinking that the other is a king or queen.
Quoting TimeLine
I've long realized your inaccessibility based upon your age, your location, I'm otherwise attached, and the fact I'm never fully convinced the person I'm talking to on the internet is anything close to that portrayed.
Quoting TimeLine
You might be nice and pretty, but that a guy wants to have sex with you in spite of recognizing the attempt might be fraught with rejection hardly serves as evidence of it. That's sort of what guys do.
Quoting TimeLine
Again, my comments about men simply wanting positive feedback (niceness) is true and is not evidence of my colossal perversion. That evidence lies in many other places, but not here. At any rate, why seek evidence when you could easily gain an admission?
Quoting TimeLine
I will hold onto that 5% for dear life. It's my reason for being.
Quoting TimeLine
I'm not an idiot. I'm clever, just perverse and not entirely tactful. Please correctly insult me. It's really tiring to have to correct your insults for you.Quoting TimeLine
Your assessment is wrong. You are my frenemy. Despite all my other shortcomings, the one thing I know for certain is that I'm never wrong.Quoting TimeLine
Who cares? You are smart, so those who call you stupid are simply wrong. Why waste your time feeling insulted. I don't. If I did, I'd have long ago curled up in the fetal position and stopped posting here. People here are prickly motherfuckers, present company included. This isn't a recipe exchange website.
Jesus Christ. At least my bullshit is absurd nonsense, not the ramblings of a wanna be sage.
Are you kidding me? That cat looks like she's about to go to church with that silly hat. I can't believe that!!!
What do you mean absurd nonsense? I've been accepting your word as gospel. I thought my upcoming jail sentence was just to test my faith in you.
"Becky: [to Dante] Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, it's entirely forgivable to go ass to mouth."
- Clerks II
You say 'obsessed', I say 'dedicated'
Quoting Agustino
If you want. Could the book be about sex? I'm doing my Analytical Philosophy course right now and wondering how goddamn awfully boring Gottlob's sex life must have been.
Quoting Agustino
Well, you could build a large family with a stripper, the same way you build a large family with any girl who isn't working in the sex trade. But to be honest, you'd have to be absolutely insane to want to start a family with V. I fully expect she'd smother her own child within an hour of being left alone with him. Plus she's got tattoes over a good 50% of her body, and getting more every month. She would stab me with a butcher knife before she would let herself 'be disfigured' (her terms, no mine) by pregnancy.
Plus, our dynasties will be forgotten anyhow. And there's a fair chance that Ditta Von Tease will be better remembered than either you or me.
.
Yeah, dedicated to an activity that brings no lasting rewards.
Quoting Akanthinos
Probably it would be a useless book. Who would read a book about sex? (apart from teenagers who are just learning about it and Hanover?)
Quoting Akanthinos
Riiiight, so you could build it but at the same time you really can't :s
Quoting Akanthinos
*Shakes head*
If it was me, honestly, I wouldn't even speak with such a person, much less have sex with them.
Quoting Akanthinos
Right, to me, she sounds like a mentally unstable person who is a danger even to be around, much less do anything with.
Quoting Akanthinos
Sure, but for awhile we will be kings, and we will go down in history as having done something good for our fellow men, something that either inspired them, taught them something or helped them.
Ditta has little chance to be remembered granted that I don't even know who that is to begin with.
.
.
.
----------------------------------
Agustino = reality disconnect
CQFD
Maybe they are inaccessible and that just pisses you off and by inaccessible it means that they do not want you or like you. Call that power? Yes, indeed, it is empowerment. You moron.
You say this because you don't enjoy the wonders of crazy. It's not for the faint of heart to be sure, but don't summarily dismiss those who should be summarily dismissed. And by "should," I mean those who every ounce of good sense tells you to run away from.
There are ordinary folks and there are heroes, like police officers, firemen, soldiers, and all sorts of people who make up the backbone of our society. What makes them heroic is that when ordinary folks flee the flames, the bullets, and the enemies, they move toward them, unwavering, fearless, knowing that only they form the barrier between civilization and chaos.
So, when you run from those crazy women with the snakes slithering out of their ears, it's people like me and perhaps Akanthinos who run toward them, heroically, fearlessly, and with the full knowledge we might be harmed, but fully motivated by the higher good that will come from engaging crazy in all its explosive glory.
You, my friend, are a knower of nothing. Until you have someone spending hours frantically pacing on your porch while you pretend not to be home, you just can't understand true joy.
Am I the only one here with no sense?
As you can see, I really am not trying to "access" anyone. I do not chase women, I see that as beneath me, and a waste of my time.
Quoting TimeLine
Yeah, you're so powerful you have to insult me ;) - tell that joke to someone else please.
You are every woman's dream come true, the guy who refuses to pursue them. How's that working for you, anti-Romeo?
Know what you call the hunter who finds chasing his prey beneath him and a waste of his time? Hungry.
I have had my fair number of women interested in me, and also a few girlfriends. But you have to understand, especially at this point in my life, I am totally uninterested in pursuing a relationship. I would make a woman miserable, simply because I wouldn't give her the time she deserves. I have no patience or time for it at the moment. It's the sort of time commitment and entanglement that I can't currently make. And I have refused women in the past 2-3 years. There are sacrifices to be made to have a good relationship.
Quoting Hanover
True, remember, I hate losing. More than I like winning for that matter. So the potential reward/loss ratio doesn't fit my personality.
Quoting Hanover
I agree.
Quoting Hanover
Sure, but I don't see what's the higher good? Like what is actually your purpose for doing that? :s
Quoting Hanover
Oh dear, I did have something similar with my high school girlfriend, and it wasn't good, trust me. I had to wonder why I ever got involved in it at some point >:O
There was quite a lot of opportunity for thy wit to be utilised with what I said, I almost handed it to you on a silver platter, but instead I woke up to this nonsense. So, when you say I will win this battle of wits, well, as said by Bruce Willis in the Last Boys Scout: "Nobody likes you. Everybody hates you. You lose."
Quoting Hanover
I'm writing this down. Lesson #1. Wait, hang on:
Quoting Michael
Oh, shit.
Quoting Hanover
My dear frienemy. (L) Your passionate vulnerability suddenly made me all mushy inside.
Quoting Hanover
I never waste my time feeling insulted, it is more like "dang it, back to square one" as I move on pretty quickly. I like prickly. I'm prickly. Actually, no, I am quite vigilant about shaving my legs. And moisturising. My legs look great in dresses. Here, for the sake of your 5% efforts I will for you expand those red wedding shoes.
Everyone hates me, true, but that doesn't make me a loser. For example, I could become President. I know how to be loved, I just refuse to do it. It requires that I be flirty, silly and that I act sort of dumb. I'm just not that sort of girl though, so DEAL with it. Bam! A backatcha that's got to sting.Quoting TimeLine
Ahhh, you jest in the midst of genius, overlooking a gem you'd have to spend hours in the boy's locker room trying to learn (yes, with the erotic smell of male genitalia rising with the steam from the tiles (think day old salami sandwich)). Just trying to maintain the 95/5 gross-out ratio.
When a guy speaks about guys, you should listen, lest you don't give a fuck about guys, in which case you will be without a man, and, as you know the word wo-man, means "with man" quite literally. Do you really want to be referred to as a wo-out-man? It sounds so very sad. I'd cry, but I am thinking about sex and French fries right now, so I'm a bit diverted.Quoting TimeLineSex and French fries still. Sorry, got nothing for a while.Quoting TimeLineThank you. Wow. Thank you. Blown away. Blown away.
Jesus, you and my therapist with this same question. Can't I just be me?
HA! It's even funnier for me because a girlfriend once actually replied that to me. Different question, tho.
(Y)
I previously had named this photo "Twerking that Ass!," but felt it made no sense, so I changed it up.
I'm a short short man. Whatever was poking me, probably was poking me in the chest. :P
What's that in your pocket? O:)
I would rather be a wo-out-man then a woe-unto-man, as in, woe unto the man who annoys TimeLine and you are... yeah, no, I got nothing. It was too good. But, alas, as I am on my one-week holiday at home doing absolutely nothing but writing and talking to you, a grandpa who wears chinos and probably a woollen vest with a cravat perfumed by a musty scent of an old cupboard, and so as a gift I give you "TimeLine's Sofa Is Better Than Hanovers".
Quite. And my baby blue dress are the tears of a wo-out-man.
I am not a lawyer, but I think I can negotiate this marriage agreement between two lawyers so we don't have to go through another 2000 back-and-forth posts of you two sharing parts of your bodies bit by bit before the marriage ceremony >:O
HEhe. That made me chuckle.
Yeah, but men aren't hunters and women aren't prey, so it's a bad analogy.
This is not annoyance you feel, but the frustration of not being close enough to Hanover, to hold his elbow, to caress his knee, and to otherwise soothe his aging joints. I feel that longing myself sometimes, and I am him, if that makes any sense at all, and I'm sure it doesn't. But really, does love ever make sense? And when I say "love," I don't use it to describe the conduct that occurs in the typical sweat drenched way after too many beers in some random stairwell sort of way, but real love, where people text one another "Good morning" after first having written "Good morning sunshine," but having edited it because it felt too risky. That's real love. That's when you know it's for realz, big city sophisticated love with a dangling z. Quoting TimeLine
You have described my scent almost perfectly other than pointing out the massive (and I mean huuuuge in a Trumpian sort of way) hints of day old salami sandwich.
What is that scent I detect emanating from you and your thrift store couch? I shall call it "Eau de 12 cats" with a not so subtle hint of day old salami sandwich. Are you sure you've been really doing nothing this holiday. It smells to me like you've been getting busy. 96/4 yet?
Spare me your liberalism. Men hunt down and kill women all the time. That's what we do. Right guys? Tell him!?! That's what we all do, right???
You have too much time on your hands.
I am not your nurse who will administer anti-inflammatory medication to sooth your arthritis, and the annoyance I feel is due to the several hours of having to listen to you clean your dentures with your tongue after eating the last of the vanilla slice.
Quoting Hanover
It is indeed true, proof even, that being nervous and afraid to say and do the wrong thing to someone is a sign of true love, but sending yourself text messages is somewhat subclinical, no? You are doing it again, like last time when you sent yourself a birthday card and when the postman delivered it to your working-class home reminiscent of the industrial revolution, you actually became overjoyed and surprised at how special you felt that someone was thinking of you.
Quoting Hanover
It's better than your "Eau de chimney sweep" and please don't start singing You've Got To Pick-A-Pocket Or Two as you do some silly little dance while playing with your double-up suspenders.
This episode of "When Hanny met Timey" is going way off script. Too much ad-libbing.
Let's take it from the top and get this thing wrapped up.
As in:
Timey: *Fakes orgasm in restaurant*
Hanny: "I love you"
Timey: "I love you too"
*Passionate kiss*
Roll credits
Is that too much to ask?
This is all wrong. What about all those chance encounters, the whole accidentally bumping into each other on different threads and pretending not to be flattered, those serendipitous moments of happenstance and late-night conversations where we tell one another just about anything and everything as we whisper little humorous jokes and giggle like two teenagers. Surely, the plot must be thickened!
What the heck. We'll do it your way. That's why you're the star, baby! Now can someone tell the runner that Hanny needs a new pair of dentures? And make them snappy!
It is somewhat frightening that you were able to decipher from my comments that I was playing out a fairly involved nurse scene in my head as we were speaking. Quoting TimeLine
It might also be argued that lack of concern for how you present is a better sign of love, like when a loving married couple no longer closes the bathroom door when defecating. 99/1, I get it, but just wait for the next degenerate comment. I've got a doozy.
Quoting TimeLine
Our home in Lancasterburghshire, overlooking the River Habderbregh, that burned uncontrollably throughout the Spring of 71, from the waste runoff from the tire burning plant, where the homeless roasted their rats on spits made from discarded radiators, where the young Hanover slaughtered a man for smiling too long, leaving him in juvenile hall from toddler until 12, where he impregnated a guard and was suddenly released, sure, he was in need of loving arms. The best he could do was send himself birthday cards and pretend to be surprised. So, yeah, hate me, ridicule me, whatever. Few have had it so hard. Like you'd have done better.
Quoting TimeLine
This is clever actually, and I fully get your euphemism when you say "chimney sweep," obviously referring to an enema, where the chimney represents the colon and the sweep the warm water loosening the various particles of morning breakfast. I'm a bit surprised a lady like yourself would go there, but you did, and I think we're all the worse for it. Please, stop being so disgusting.
You might be surprised to learn how little time my posts take.
(Y)
It's unfortunate that many people don't view relationships in this and similar ways. I've found that people get in and out of relationships when they've not the desire or mental fortitude to persevere and manage.
However, do be careful. You may say no to the woman that's actually worth all the time in your world.
I am euphoria. (L)
And no debt?
Some debts. I'd be hard to get to 33 in this day and age without some. But the 3 years of full-time work means that even now that I'm doing less hours at work, I'm still capable of living well, putting some money aside, paying my university and paying back my debts. Slowly, but still...
How is being Dutch going for you, by the way? I see you have upgraded your technology as you have been writing a little better. I'm curious to know what you upgraded to from the MS-DOS 3.3 and 56K modem?
And these people can't be friends? They must be romantic partners as well?
No, not at all, but my point was that one cannot be romantic and intimate without first being friends, because friendship enables one access to empathy, to actually care for someone other than yourself and such moral consciousness is thus learning or being capable of giving love genuinely. To become romantic following this is, in my opinion, a genuine and natural process because you come to learn whether or not you are compatible with another, whether you admire them for who they are and so your choice is more informed rather than instinctual and sexual. I cannot, for the life of me, become intimate with anyone without forming this initial bond because becoming intimate with someone is a very personal thing for me. If I skip that aspect or go backwards - becoming intimate with someone and then learn who they are afterwards - only leads to an increased possibility of a breakdown; I would hate to wake up beside someone who has no sense of humour or is a person who follows the crowd and cares about what other people think, two things that are very important to me.
I am not willing to try and change anyone. I just want them to be who they are and for me to like it and vice versa so that I can enjoy them for however long we are together and not struggle painfully as I deal with them, except for sporadic moments in between that keep the relationship going. The problem I am experiencing is that men just skip this part and I try to form a friendship first but they are just too overwhelming for me.
O, those were the days when it was just you and I. The passion. The intrigue. The debauchery. Then we produced our love child and named him Wendy, but he got all rebellious and changed his name to Agu after we split because you cheated on me with Baden. Now things have really become bad as Agu and Hanover both vie for my attention. I just want things to be like the old days.
No idea what you're talking about, Wos.
I knew it had to have been the world that was wrong.
How's that eye, bud? ;)
Still gets the job done. We all get old, break down, and then die.
The old days where I took people around here too seriously? Hmm, no.
Spot on. Reminds me of this:
Let's keep the uplifting theme going. Anything beats the Hanny/Timey stuff.
Down doggie, it was just a lil' joke between me and Wos.
Yeah, it's a special inside one, that you wouldn't understand! You just don't grasp the significance of it to our special relationship that we more than share, but are privileged by -- a privilege we refuse to check!
Yeah, I totally was going to go to the hospital about it, but then I just didn't do that thing. I'll probably live.
A descriptive claim. Ought you to be romantic?
Yes! It is almost an absolute must but in saying that how you are romantic is not descriptive; so that rubbish people do with giving each other flowers and chocolates or celebrating anniversaries, none of which I appreciate at all, well maybe except flowers, pink ones in particular, but that is because I grow flowers and love the smell of flowers. But, I digress. The point is that once you are in an intimate relationship, an expression of how you know the person you love by showing them is a beautiful thing. Without it, it would be rather clinical, no?
They won't know the cause, and I don't like the hospital...
It was likely just all the fish, and lack of vitamins. I thought it might be a good diet.
Sexual intimacy is one of a number of factors that is required for a successful romantic engagement; friendship is one such factor, as is economy, genuine honesty and admiration etc. If you want to remain friends with someone, then remain friends and there is no obligation, just as you may form a business relationship based on economy. Friendship enables the ability to give love or be empathetic as well as honest. Your friend tells you their secrets, they trust you, they laugh with you, they have fun with you, they care for your well being and want what is best for you and they hurt when you hurt. It is where honesty and love are formed and we develop an understanding of what is genuine and real.
Most people skip friendship and are attracted to and approach only who they sexually desire, expecting that afterwards they may get to know them. Instead, what happens is that they form a bond based on the satisfaction of an instinct and then deal with any differences later, trying to change them to become what they would prefer or eventually just cheating or breaking up. The worst is when they play games (I hate this the most) and I have seen men lying to their girlfriends as a way to pretend that they are being honest and women using emotional manipulation to keep relationships going etc. That is because they are not friends and if they weren't sexually intimate they would probably not be friends, probably not even like each other at all. All those factors need to work in unison - friendship, sexual intimacy, economy, genuine honesty, admiration etc - and any breakdown of one or more of those factors strains the continuity of the relationship.
People marry for looks or appearances, others for cultural reasons or restrictions, and even more because of loneliness and wanting a companion. Most are not initiated by forming a bond through friendship and often other reasons usually compel. If, however, two people form that bond, friendship becomes the foundation that carries the mutual affection even if other factors breakdown (so, say, you are no longer sexually attracted to your partner) that even if they divorce, they still carry the same mutual affection and so it becomes 'forever' so to speak, that they still desire the other to be happy, to be safe and well looked after despite no longer being together. Only friendship can do that and so marriage based on this really is 'forever' despite it not actually being forever.
When you are attracted to someone sexually - and it happens - but they are also your friend, someone you care about and you want to make happy, someone you admire and love having around, why would that be a bad thing?
I think you need to re-consider the word 'instinct' - as said by Aquinas, "Love takes up where knowledge leaves off." If you take a psychological approach, the structure of our personality and psyche is made up of this evolutionary/instinctual (the Id), your relationship with the external world (the ego) and the values or moral foundation (the superego) we attempt to incorporate to manage the relationship between the instinctual and the external world. Our moral values challenge our instinctual and we learn to tell ourselves that certain behaviours are wrong; we are also taught moral values by others and our relationships with them.
An authentic friendship is not instinctual, but rather superlative of our moral foundations incorporated with our ego or our personality and response to the external world. The instinctual is blind, aggressive, biological and therein no reason or logic exists. Friendship enables us to experience conscience, to mirror ourselves and form our behavioural attitudes but our ego identifies with things that are pleasurable too and so we run the risk of making friends with wrong people in order to obtain pleasure. So, if we approach friendships as we should romantic engagements with our superego, we can find the right people who are morally worthy and hold similar values (the right people) and thus reason rather than instinct prevails.
No one ought to become romantically engaged and I do not see the necessity of saying that intimacy is natural (as mentioned, I have yet to be intimate myself) but I do believe that reason is just as pleasurable as instinct and if it is approached correctly, there is nothing wrong with pleasure. Reason allows us to consciously experience pleasure and that is something our instincts do not permit.
There's always that risk. But then, pursuing the woman that is worth it, is also risky. It can stop you from doing the useful work you could do in the world, for your God, your church, other people, etc. As I said, relationships take a lot of time. Women (in a relationship) feel alone if you don't give them enough time. That is why I say work while you're young and strong, you can marry later - but the most productive years of your life are when you're young. That's the time you should be pursuing the greater good you can do in the world and not wasting time with partying, chasing women, etc.
Which is the bigger regret? To be with the woman you love and have failed to give anything to the world? Or to give a lot to the world but be alone? Children are not only physical children - all the traces you leave behind in the world through your impact are your children. If you successfully add even a single leaf to the tree of knowledge, you've made a lasting mark for mankind.
:-O
There's no simple "yes" or "no" to that question. It depends.
Hence, to answer it with, "Yes!", or, "No one ought to become romantically engaged", would be incorrect.
Why not just say it to me? Anyway, I initially got confused between romance as in being romantic, with what he was referring to, as in intimate relationship. The former was the Yes! and the latter was the 'there is no ought'.
Why does it matter? It was an answer to Thorongil's question, and you're quick enough to realise what I did.
Quoting TimeLine
And both are wrong. There's no simple "yes" or "no" answer, and there is an "ought", but it's relative.
I have to go to work now. See ya later.
That doesn't make sense, though. Are you saying that we ought to pursue an intimate relationship but how this intimacy or romance is applied is relative? The latter, yes, but no one should be obligated to pursue anything if they choose not to; there is asexuality as much as there is bisexuality, for instance.
Enjoy work.
"Sexual love, however, is what most dearly reveals itself as a craving for new property: the lover wants unconditional and sole possession of the longed-for person; he wants a power over her soul as unconditional as his power over her body; he wants to be the only beloved, to live and to rule in the other soul as that which is supreme and most desirable. If one considers that this means excluding the whole world from a precious good, from joy and enjoyment; if one considers that the lover aims at the impoverishment and deprivation of all the competitors and would like to become the dragon guarding his golden hoard as the most inconsiderate and selfish of all 'conquerors' and exploiters; if one considers, finally, that to the lover himself the rest of the world appears indifferent, pale, and worthless and that he is prepared to make any sacrifice, upset any order, subordinate any other interest; then one is indeed amazed that this wild greed and injustice of sexual love has been as glorified and deified as it has in all ages - yes, that this love has furnished the concept of love as the opposite of egoism when it may in fact be the most candid expression of egoism. Here is it evidently the have-nots and the yearning ones who have formed linguistic usage - there have probably always been too many of them.
Those who were granted much possession and satiety in this area must occasionally have made some casual remark about 'the raging demon', as did that most charming and beloved of all Athenians, Sophocles: but Eros always laughed at such blasphemers; they were always precisely his greatest darlings. Here and there on earth there is probably a kind of continuation of love in which this greedy desire of two people for each other gives way to a new desire and greed, a shared higher thirst for an ideal above them. But who knows such love? Who has experienced it? It's true name is friendship."
But isn't this to be admired to a certain extent? What great conqueror would not give up his empire if only he could possess someone - even a single person's heart - forever?
(Y)
Erich Fromm refers to this friendship as a love for all human beings that lacks an exclusivity: "If a person loves only one other person and is indifferent to all others, his love is not love but a symbiotic attachment, or an enlarged egotism."
The correct union between two people are two independent people who are not subject to any authority, have overcome this adaptation to a sick society and learnt the following:
“Infantile love follows the principle: "I love because I am loved."
Mature love follows the principle: "I am loved because I love."
Immature love says: "I love you because I need you."
Mature love says: "I need you because I love you.”
Not from the perspective presented by Nietzsche, which is sexual love as a form of greedy and selfish possession. Hardly to be admired more than a conqueror submitting his subjects to slavery. But Nietzsche's tactic is provocative hyperbole. He omits the element of surrender here.
It's not the same thing. The erotic conqueror wants the other to WANT them, not just to be possessed by them. Possession can be achieved by force - at least physical possession. But possession of one's heart cannot.
So what? What does it matter that you call it "enlarged egotism"?
Yeah, let's redefine words to make it sound wrong :-}