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Relationship between Platonism and Stoicism

Agustino January 24, 2018 at 09:03 22225 views 26 comments
In Ethics and political philosophy, stoicism and Platonism seem to be quite close to one another, and yet the schools remained quite distinct historically. Stoics did not call themselves Platonists, nor Platonists called themselves Stoics.

The main similarities seem to be in the role that both Plato and the Stoics attribute to the importance of society for the individual (namely that the quality of society is determined by the quality of individuals "society is man writ large", but at the same time the individual ought to serve the interests of society), the centrality of virtue to happiness, and the idea that the good man will benefit both in this world and in the next.

So what are the significant differences that stopped a closer relationship between the two schools when it came to ethics?

Comments (26)

Ying January 24, 2018 at 12:19 #146781
The stoics traced their lineage back to Socrates: Zeno of Citium was a student of Crates of Thebes, who supposedly studied under Diogenes of Sinope who supposedly studied under Antisthenes who was a student of Socrates. By the time stoicism was in full swing, the platonic Academy was taken over by the sceptics with guys like Arcesilaus and Karneades openly attacking the tenets of stoicism in their writings.
Agustino February 01, 2018 at 19:13 #148861
Yeah, I was more trying to refer strictly to the teachings of Plato (as found in The Republic, for example) in comparison to Stoicism.
Agustino February 01, 2018 at 20:37 #148871
One question that interests me, is why did the Platonist school, even though it was more widespread than Stoicism, didn't produce important historical figures like Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and the like. Would it be because of the overly theoretic aspect of Platonism?
Ying February 02, 2018 at 01:47 #148937
Quoting Agustino
One question that interests me, is why did the Platonist school, even though it was more widespread than Stoicism, didn't produce important historical figures like Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and the like. Would it be because of the overly theoretic aspect of Platonism?


Well, apart from the people I already mentioned (Arcesilaus and Karneades where scholarchs of the Academy), Cicero also went to the Academy during his time in Athens. Cicero wasn't exactly a platonist though.
Caldwell February 02, 2018 at 04:12 #148967
Quoting Agustino
One question that interests me, is why did the Platonist school, even though it was more widespread than Stoicism, didn't produce important historical figures like Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and the like. Would it be because of the overly theoretic aspect of Platonism?


With my utmost respect, are you even serious about asking this question?
Cavacava February 02, 2018 at 15:18 #149102
One question that interests me, is why did the Platonist school, even though it was more widespread than Stoicism, didn't produce important historical figures like Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and the like. Would it be because of the overly theoretic aspect of Platonism?


Esoteric vs exoteric
Agustino February 02, 2018 at 18:39 #149136
Quoting Caldwell
With my utmost respect, are you even serious about asking this question?

What's wrong with asking that?
Agustino February 02, 2018 at 18:39 #149137
Quoting Ying
Well, apart from the people I already mentioned (Arcesilaus and Karneades where scholarchs of the Academy), Cicero also went to the Academy during his time in Athens. Cicero wasn't exactly a platonist though.

What about, for ex. Plutarch?
Agustino February 02, 2018 at 18:44 #149139
Quoting Cavacava
Esoteric vs exoteric

I doubt that - if you read Plato's works, most of them have a fair balance between the esoteric and the exoteric. And there are Platonists like Plutarch who are very much focused on social issues.
Cavacava February 02, 2018 at 18:52 #149141
Reply to Agustino

Every narrative is a mix, but Plato never suggested a set rules for behavior like some of the Stoics. The substance of Plato's dialogues is between the lines, and not in the lines. Plato teaches how to think, not what to think.

Which do you think was more accessible to those that followed?
Ying February 03, 2018 at 13:15 #149362
Quoting Agustino
What about, for ex. Plutarch?


Uh, sure. I don't know much about that dude so didn't mention him. :)
Agustino February 03, 2018 at 13:27 #149365
Quoting Ying
Uh, sure. I don't know much about that dude so didn't mention him. :)

Okay, so then on ethical matters, do you agree more with the Platonists or the Stoics?
Agustino February 03, 2018 at 13:35 #149366
Reply to Ying I was actually discussing this here recently too:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/149344
Ying February 03, 2018 at 18:12 #149425
Quoting Agustino
Okay, so then on ethical matters, do you agree more with the Platonists or the Stoics?


Classical scepticism/daoism. I'm basically against prescriptive ethics, dualistic value judgement systems etc. 8-)
Caldwell February 04, 2018 at 20:01 #149795
Quoting Agustino
One question that interests me, is why did the Platonist school, even though it was more widespread than Stoicism, didn't produce important historical figures like Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and the like. Would it be because of the overly theoretic aspect of Platonism?

Quoting Agustino
What's wrong with asking that?

I was wondering why not ask, why had Stoicism been adopted as a practical philosophy and practiced in everyday life? (Stoicism was purported to be the basis of Christianity). And meanwhile, you could also argue that Platonism was truly a scholastic endeavor.

Agustino February 04, 2018 at 20:56 #149803
Quoting Caldwell
(Stoicism was purported to be the basis of Christianity).

As was Platonism for that matter, in fact, more so in the case of Platonism.

Quoting Caldwell
I was wondering why not ask, why had Stoicism been adopted as a practical philosophy and practiced in everyday life?

What's the significant difference between this question and mine?
Caldwell February 04, 2018 at 22:52 #149835
Quoting Agustino
What's the significant difference between this question and mine?


You blurred the difference between the two, instead of highlighting it. Short of saying you didn't know the significant difference, I suspect you were eating a really good sandwich when you blurted out this thread, no?
Agustino February 05, 2018 at 09:09 #149962
Reply to Caldwell Right... :-}
Caldwell February 06, 2018 at 03:08 #150334
Nada June 25, 2018 at 09:07 #191056
Reply to Agustino

Hope there is no problem in arriving late at the debate but the two philosophies are considerably different and seem to agree only that virtue is the way to happiness. One possesses dualism between matter and spirit, as far as I know it was not dogmatic, it is strongly based on logic and has math as necessary in its curriculum, its members were practicing vegetarians and animal rights activists. The other is a non dualist and dogmatic, mainly ethical, philosophy with little logical requirements and advocating flesh eating.
Why did one not seem to produce important politicians and the other did? I honestly don't know if it did or not but except for some branches of Stoicism there doesn't seem to be a bias about a philosopher engaging in such an activity while you can see that it was not the ideal occupation in Platonism.
Gamayun February 28, 2021 at 21:34 #504124
Reply to Nada I do not remember when Stoics advocated meat-eating. Rufus was a vegetarian, the same goes for Senecca (although his vegetarianism was mainly driven by the teachings of Pythagoras).
Valentinus February 28, 2021 at 22:31 #504140
Reply to Agustino
It might be helpful to consider Plotinus as a self-identified follower of Plato who disagreed with his Stoic contemporaries. I would like to draw more lines from actual texts but that is an academic endeavor I cannot take on at the moment. Consider the following paragraph from SEP:

The second group of major opponents of Platonism were the Stoics. The Enneads are filled with anti-Stoic polemics. These polemics focus principally on Stoic materialism, which Plotinus finds to be incapable of articulating an ontology which includes everything in the universe. More important, Stoic materialism is unable to provide explanatory adequacy even in the realm in which the Stoics felt most confident, namely, the physical universe. For example, the Stoics, owing to their materialism, could not explain consciousness or intentionality, neither of which are plausibly accounted for in materialistic terms. According to Plotinus, the Stoics were also unable to give a justification for their ethical position – not in itself too far distant from Plato’s – since their exhortations to the rational life could not coherently explain how one body (the empirical self) was supposed to identify with another body (the ideal rational agent).
Gregory March 01, 2021 at 05:10 #504211
Heat energy was divine for the Stoics. The sun particularly. The Hindu idea of "tapas" in the stomach would have resonated with them. Stoics were materialists though while Hindus are usually idealist. Few have impugned the Stoics are moral grounds, therefore they seem to have been a pretty noble band of materialistic atheists. There are many such people around these days.
Nada March 01, 2021 at 15:10 #504348
Reply to Gamayun Seneca was only briefly a vegetarian before becoming a Stoic, it seems he didn't want to be confused with some groups.
Didn't know Musonius was vegetarian, only that he advocated eating like slaves did which I imagine meant little or no meat. It is possible that some stoics and cynics were vegetarian as a matter of frugality or even for other reasons.
Zeno in his polemic Republic seems to have advocated even cannibalism, probably in justifiable situations.
Deleted User March 01, 2021 at 15:45 #504356
This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.
Ciceronianus March 01, 2021 at 17:32 #504406
The Stoics revered Socrates, but that Socrates wasn't the Socrates of Plato.

The Stoics conception of an immanent divinity also sets them apart from Plato, and served to prevent them from flying off into the Never-Never Land of Platonism and Neo-Platonism and their offshoots and, of course, Christianity to the extent it borrowed from Plato than Aristotle and others of the ancient schools.