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On the benefits of basic income.

Shawn January 17, 2018 at 09:17 13625 views 56 comments
I've had many discussions with a friend about basic income and read about it online from reputable news sources. One of the major issues in even having a discussion about the notion of basic income is establishing how much money do people get. I've taken the lower bound estimate based on the amount the US government has already established is enough to get by with based on disability benefits. An American on disability benefits gets around (depending on how much they've already put into Social Security) around $750 a month to live off of. That number varies by state and if you live with your parents or family (which is typically the case for someone on disability) and can go to around $635 due to living with a family member. Now, that is a workable number and not unrealistic as per:

An economy as rich as America’s could afford to pay citizens a basic income worth about $10,000 a year if it began collecting about as much tax as a share of GDP as Germany (35%, as opposed to the current 26%) and replaced all other welfare programmes (including Social Security, or pensions, but not including health care) with the basic-income payment.

Source.

So, moving on from the issue of costs provided the above, what are some benefits that you can imagine that a measly $7,620 a year can provide to the neediest and poor?

Comments (56)

AngleWyrm January 17, 2018 at 09:43 #144755
The question appears to be asking how to spend other people's money. Food stamps already have a long litany of opinions on what should not be allowed, the destination of such a conversation.

Post your budget pie, if you wish to discuss how 'you' spend money.
Shawn January 17, 2018 at 10:42 #144756
Quoting AngleWyrm
Food stamps already have a long litany of opinions on what should not be allowed, the destination of such a conversation.


If your arguing over moral hazard, then sure. Some people might decide to spend their basic income on rather stupid things, like drugs, gambling, or risky investments. However, I don't think this would be the majority of cases, and money can be tracked. So, given the minuscule amount being offered to people in general, then I don't think it's an issue worth talking about with great relevance.

Quoting AngleWyrm
Post your budget pie, if you wish to discuss how 'you' spend money.


Well, I am on SSI. $500 of my $635 goes to rent, and since I live with my family which helps with food costs, I get to keep the remainder for grooming, health needs, and transportation costs.

That's pretty much what the money was intended to be used for and that's how it is spent by me.
Streetlight January 17, 2018 at 11:07 #144759
One of the best cases for UI I know is in Rutger Bergman's Utopia for Realists, where he looks not only at the theoretical benefits but delves into the actual case studies of where UBI has been tried and tested, with almost universally positive results. The idea is precisely that people generally tend to use it for necessities: rent, utilities, and food; And that once they stop struggling to meet the bare minimum for survival, they trend is towards far more economic productivity, all across the board: people actually have the time to pursue entrepreneurial goals, or else invest time into study and upskilling, and so on. I'm still not 100% sold on the idea, personally - UBI would need to be one mechanism implemented in line with others in a wide-ranging social policy, but I can definitely see its positives. In any case, I'd really suggest reading the Bergman book.
Shawn January 17, 2018 at 11:10 #144760
Reply to StreetlightX

Yeah, that's a book on my to-read list in regards to this topic.

What are your thoughts about UBI in general though?

Why are conservatives so opposed to it despite the economic argument that could be made in its favor?
Michael January 17, 2018 at 11:21 #144762
Quoting Posty McPostface
Why are conservatives so opposed to it despite the economic argument that could be made in its favor?


I believe the issue is with money being taken from those who have worked for it and given to those who haven't.
Shawn January 17, 2018 at 11:27 #144763
Quoting Michael
I believe the issue is the principle of money being taken from those who have worked for it and given to those who haven't.


Yes; but, if you could present to a conservative-minded economist the notion that net benefits of UBI would drastically (in my opinion) outweigh the negatives, then what's the issue then?
Michael January 17, 2018 at 11:29 #144764
Reply to Posty McPostface The principle of money being taken from those who have worked for it and given to those who haven't? Sometimes people care more about the means than the end.
Shawn January 17, 2018 at 11:36 #144766
Quoting Michael
The principle of money being taken from those who have worked for it and given to those who haven't? Sometimes people care more about the means than the end.


I fail to see this as some plausible argument that conservatives are dogmatic ideologues. After all proposals for UBI has been made by conservatives in the US for some time now. Nixon, Friedman, etc.

Erik January 17, 2018 at 11:36 #144767
Quoting Posty McPostface
Why are conservatives so opposed to it despite the economic argument that could be made in its favor?


I believe Charles Murray is strongly in favor of it, and to my understanding he's pretty conservative on economic matters. There's an interesting conversation between Murray and Bill Kristol (I think) on the topic where he discusses his pragmatic reasons for supporting the idea and also some specific ways it could be implemented. I'll try to track it down...
Erik January 17, 2018 at 11:40 #144768
Shawn January 17, 2018 at 11:44 #144770
Anyway, if anyone cares to express their thoughts about the benefits, not necessarily economic, then please let me know.

I can start:

Egalitarian: UBI is inherently egalitarian. Each person receives the same amount regardless of how much they make.

Crime reduction: Although this is not studied in any manner, I would think that with the basic necessities in life taken care of, crime would seem like a less likely alternative to provide for those necessities in life.

Drugs: While some may spend their basic income on drugs, it would enable them to seek out more rewarding occupations in life.

Poverty: Well, again I don't have evidence to support the correlation between UBI and poverty rates, it would seem that in the long run, as mentioned, people would seek out ways to enrichen their lives through education or employment.

Heath: Having enough to provide for your needs, you now have time to take care of yourself and mental health would be promoted by reducing anxiety and apathy among the disenfranchised.

...
Michael January 17, 2018 at 11:45 #144771
Reply to Posty McPostface Maybe not exactly as I've worded it (although I'm sure some would reject it just on that principle), but people certainly do reject it on some ideological ground. See here, for example:

But even if [UBI] could work, it should be rejected on principle. A UBI would redefine the relationship between individuals, families, communities, and the state by giving government the role of provider. It would make work optional and render self-reliance moot. An underclass dependent on government handouts would no longer be one of society’s greatest challenges but instead would be recast as one of its proudest achievements.
Shawn January 17, 2018 at 11:55 #144775
It would make work optional and render self-reliance moot.


That all depends on how much we're giving away for basic needs. As per the OP, and I do agree with the quoted sentiment to some degree, the intent is only to provide for basic needs, not any more than that.

That seems to get confused a lot or even distorting the definition of a monthly allotted amount to cover these basic needs.
Pseudonym January 17, 2018 at 11:58 #144777
Reply to Michael

We hear a lot of this kind of nonsense from conservatives. If someone were to invent a completely useless gadget, whose properties were such that it caused harm both socially and environmentally, but due to an excellent marketing campaign it became very popular and made the inventor rich, Conservative thinking would have us believe he had justifiably 'earned' his money. Likewise someone born into wealth, invests money in the arms trade and earns a fortune.

The conclusion is that the means by which they earn their money does not have any bearing on whether their wealth is truly 'theirs' in a justified way.

So, following this logic, if a group of people get together and, by campaigning and voting in a democracy, obtain themselves a government who is willing to tax the wealthy to provide them with a UBI, how had their chosen means of earning money suddenly become unjustified?
Shawn January 17, 2018 at 11:59 #144778
Reply to Erik

Thanks for that. A rational and cool-headed neo-classical economist comes to the win. I especially like his implicit argument that there's a cutoff point where you can make 30k a year and still enjoy the benefits of UBI and stick with that or pursue a degree or higher wage job, which would then enable you to go beyond 30k a year and remove the dependency trap many conservatives argue over. And, yes, some cutoff would be necessary to even consider the economic ramifications of implementing UBI.
Streetlight January 17, 2018 at 12:07 #144780
Quoting Posty McPostface
Why are conservatives so opposed to it despite the economic argument that could be made in its favor?


Yeah, as Michael's quote captures, it's this idea of 'self-reliance' that is seen undermined by initiatives like UBI; the question of 'dependency' and the apparent correlative danger to 'freedom' is also one of the big motivators against it. I'd say that such arguments trade on incredibly thin and entirely unrealistic conceptions of freedom and individuality, but that's the general tenor of the argument against it, I think. Hannah Arendt once argued that freedom began where the concern with the necessities of life ended - a UBI would be a nice step on the way to securing something like an Arendtian freedom, which I find incredibly attractive.

The biggest danger with UBI I think isn't the idea itself: it's the fact that it can be leaned upon as a excuse to shut down other areas of public investment, and perhaps act as a spur to unnecessary privatization as well. While I do think any UBI should be leveraged to cut down on other social security initiatives, any such trade-off would need to be carefully calculated and weighed against specific circumstances. The worry is that UBI will be used as an excuse for what would amount to a public firesale. That would be awful.
Shawn January 17, 2018 at 12:12 #144782
Quoting StreetlightX
The biggest danger with UBI I think isn't the idea itself: it's the fact that it can be leaned upon as a excuse to shut down other areas of public investment, and perhaps act as a spur to unnecessary privatization as well. While I do think any UBI should be leveraged to cut down on other social security initiatives, any such trade-off would need to be carefully calculated and weighed against specific circumstances. The worry is that UBI will be used as an excuse for what would amount to a public firesale. That would be awful.


A purely economic analysis of the idea is that UBI is a more efficient means of tackling poverty and social transfer schemes. Keep in mind that many people choose to stay on benefits because they'd lose them if they got a job as it currently stands in the US.
Streetlight January 17, 2018 at 12:13 #144783
Have you seen the Kurzgesagt primer on it? (I love this channel). It mentions that aspect of it as well:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl39KHS07Xc[/video]

There's also Nick Srnicek and Alex Williams' argument for it in their Inventing the Future, and you can check out their talk here:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIcNhdRWMdE[/video]
Erik January 17, 2018 at 12:38 #144789
Quoting Posty McPostface
Thanks for that.


(Y)

Shawn January 17, 2018 at 12:48 #144792
Reply to Erik

Who's the guy in your profile picture?
Michael January 17, 2018 at 13:05 #144793
Reply to Erik Reply to Posty McPostface Your profile picture is a screenshot of an image in your browser? That is hilarious.

Trying to see what the other tabs are. Best I can make out is "Spaghetti sauce" and "Human institute"?
Erik January 17, 2018 at 13:51 #144796
Lol now you get some random handsome guy for a minute as damage control. I should have cropped the Melville pic or something but didn't pay much attention haha. Hope I didn't have any porn or other incriminating stuff open.
Michael January 17, 2018 at 13:55 #144798
Reply to Erik You can just right click on the image, save to desktop, and then upload as a profile pic. No need for cropping and screenshots.
Shawn January 17, 2018 at 13:56 #144799
Reply to Erik

Looking good Erik. You look like an engineer or teacher/educator by the looks of it.
Erik January 17, 2018 at 13:58 #144800
Thanks, Michael. It's a slightly more complex process on the chromebook I'm using. That or I'm just an idiot...

I think I finally figured it out.
Erik January 17, 2018 at 14:11 #144803
Reply to Posty McPostface

Thank you! I tried my hand at teaching but couldn't hang and eventually settled on the restaurant management biz.
BC January 17, 2018 at 16:20 #144845
Reply to Posty McPostface I am in favor of the UBI because it would achieve what I consider important humanitarian goals:

1. It would enable workers to take more risks in seeking better employment. As it is now, unemployment is limited and short term, and applies only if one is fired. You can't use UI if you voluntarily quit, and the benefit is short.

2. It would enable workers to acquire enhanced skills and life experiences.

3. It would reduce the fragility of workers economic lives.

4. It would be cheaper to administer than existing welfare benefits because it would be an entitlement rather than welfare programs which require more oversight of recipients.

5. It would enhance workers' quality of life.

The cost of distributing $7500 per year to 150 million adults -- $1,125,000,000,000 -- is a large figure, of course, but it wouldn't be on top of existing welfare programs, t would replace those programs. All welfare-type programs which do not include Social Security and Medicare amount something like... $250 billion; the estimates will vary, depending on what is or is not included. Medicaid is not included, for instance.

What would happen to this annual trillion-dollar-plus distribution?

Much of it would be spent on necessities: food, clothing, shelter, transportation, etc. Some of it would be spent on education, travel, and amusements. Some of it would be saved. Some of it would be spent on drugs, alcohol, gambling, and the like. Some of it would be given to other people. Most of it will be spent, though, and that will have a generally beneficial effect on the economy.
Michael January 17, 2018 at 17:21 #144858
Quoting Bitter Crank
The cost of distributing $7500 per year to 150 million adults -- $1,125,000,000,000


That's how much will be distributed. The cost of distributing it will add to the full amount.
BC January 17, 2018 at 18:54 #144879
Reply to Michael it will add a small percentage. The Social Security system, for instance, has a very low overhead cost. It's low because the function of sending out checks is not expensive.
AngleWyrm January 18, 2018 at 08:15 #145065
Quoting Posty McPostface
Well, I am on SSI. $500 of my $635 goes to rent, and since I live with my family which helps with food costs, I get to keep the remainder for grooming, health needs, and transportation costs. That's pretty much what the money was intended to be used for and that's how it is spent by me.


Since you were bold enough to post a budget pie, I feel obliged to do the same. I'm on a program called ABD which is the step before SSI, granting $198/month in cash and $196/month in food stamps.

User image

The approximation contains two categories that don't appear in most pie charts:
1). Addictions: Expenses that I haven't got control of; coffee, cigarettes, etc where the need decides for me rather than the other way around.
2). Entertainment: I believe this to be a basic need, seen even in animal behavior, that often fails to be represented.
Shawn January 19, 2018 at 06:32 #145242
Reply to AngleWyrm

Ah, those addictions. Demand being nurtured. Mine are, coffee, taking supplements (although this counts towards personal health), and some pot from time to time to sooth the mind. I already quit drinking alcohol altogether.
Pseudonym January 19, 2018 at 07:56 #145256
I'm hugely in favour of UBI, but I don't think it's without its serious problems, for example, how are we going to get all the less desirable jobs done? Who on earth would opt to clean sewers just to get a bit of extra spending money?
Saphsin January 20, 2018 at 07:53 #145626
Yeah, as Michael's quote captures, it's this idea of 'self-reliance' that is seen undermined by initiatives like UBI; the question of 'dependency' and the apparent correlative danger to 'freedom' is also one of the big motivators against it. I'd say that such arguments trade on incredibly thin and entirely unrealistic conceptions of freedom and individuality, but that's the general tenor of the argument against it, I think. Hannah Arendt once argued that freedom began where the concern with the necessities of life ended - a UBI would be a nice step on the way to securing something like an Arendtian freedom, which I find incredibly attractive.

The biggest danger with UBI I think isn't the idea itself: it's the fact that it can be leaned upon as a excuse to shut down other areas of public investment, and perhaps act as a spur to unnecessary privatization as well. While I do think any UBI should be leveraged to cut down on other social security initiatives, any such trade-off would need to be carefully calculated and weighed against specific circumstances. The worry is that UBI will be used as an excuse for what would amount to a public firesale. That would be awful.
Reply to StreetlightX

I don't have the same attitudes towards replacing social security with UBI.

It is true that government handed cash has been shown for people to use it to support themselves rather than just waste it indolently. But it is also true that a program that serve as cohesive support for certain needs rather than forcing individuals to make responsible choices for themselves in allocating their resources can be much more liberating for the individual.

This is obvious for most people with regards to children (having a parent dictate the direction their children will develop rather than have them make decisions for themselves gives the children more freedom to enjoy their lives and develop their capabilities. Of course things like Tiger Parenting can be deleterious to their development and happiness, but that's a different story.) but it is also true to a large extent to human beings in general. That's one of the empirically proven arguments given for the benefits of social security (having a system behind you save funds for you automatically) and against voucher programs like charter schools (highly astute and responsible parents are required)

This is also because Social programs are designed to specifically help certain types of needs, which are deemed as a legal right (right to health, right for children to get proper schooling, right to retire comfortably) so politically, the lines are much more clear how much funds are to be allocated for each program when successfully passed. I suspect that with respect to universal basic income, there will be constant political opportunities to squander about how much income should be given, giving excuses for them to be cut and shortened, or for there to be legal barriers & requirements that citizens have to take to acquire more of their income. This happened with food stamps among other things. It's much more effective for society to dictate that certain needs need to be guaranteed directly.

That's my take on it, here's something I read recently that presents another interesting and much more technical case against UBI about how it'll potentially affect the economy.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/12/universal-basic-income-inequality-work

P.S. Kurzgesagt has great videos, but I don't trust everything on it. From what I remember, the Basic Income video came after as a rejoinder to their videos about robots taking over jobs, which is pretty much a lousy myth.
mcdoodle January 20, 2018 at 18:48 #145713
Reply to Posty McPostface I'm active in the Greens in the UK and we've had a universal basic income as policy for a long time. At the last elections other parties started talking about it and I think that's partly the role of the Greens here and in other countries, even if far from power: to seed policies that will take root elsewhere.

I think the arguments, many outlined earlier in the thread, of simplicity, resilience in the face of job losses, especially adaptability in the face of technology change, and the end to a whole range of benefits one has to 'deserve' are strong ones. There are supplements in most proposals, however, for disability, for being pensioner age, and a rate for children.

Some of the devil is in the detail. The Greens costed a proposal for the UK 2017 elections which had a nil cost to the government, but when you do that, the initial income is meagre. To me an incoming government with a one-off generous beginning to such a scheme would be the best way of introducing it.

It's an issue that doesn't divide neatly between left and right. To some it sounds like socialism. But it does mean less government, as the bureaucracy of tax and benefits is greatly slimmed down. The Adam Smith Institute for instance is a free market neoliberal bunch, but they've just endorsed the idea.

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/rising-evidence-basic-income

There are experiments in Ontario and Finland. I think a major country will introduce a version of it in the next few years, but I'm terrible at forecasting.

BC January 20, 2018 at 19:20 #145719
Quoting Pseudonym
how are we going to get all the less desirable jobs done? Who on earth would opt to clean sewers just to get a bit of extra spending money?


It's not a job that appeals to me, but surprisingly, the job gets done. Question: Why do people work for civil engineering companies and municipal agencies that deal with sewers? Answer: The rewards are high enough. Or, as they say in civil engineering offices, "Your shit is our bread and butter." There are companies that do nothing but deal with sewers and sewage treatment plants up close and personal

As late as the victorian period there was a substantial demand in London (and elsewhere) for people to manually scoop out the pits beneath outhouses and haul the crap away. The job was paid twice: first, a fee for the cleaning, second the sale of the human manure to farmers for fertilizer. It was most definitely NOT a high status job. In western society, a certain amount of status accrues to technically sophisticated jobs. We don't have very many people scooping out feces from pits, but we do have people applying technical tools to keeping the sewers open and working.

Urban explorers like to go down into big sewers -- the ones that are big enough to stand up-right walk around in. There are numerous risks, some of them mortal: drowning, severe injury, and disease. Sewer workers are vaccinated against all sorts of diseases, urban explorers are not. Still, most urban explorers (and civil engineering workers) survive their time in sewers without much calamity.

Status and adequate pay will get the jobs done now, where as in the victorian period, the attraction was mostly pecuniary, and maybe not much career choice.
gurugeorge January 21, 2018 at 00:58 #145795
Reply to Posty McPostface I'm honestly torn on this issue. I think it would make a great replacement for current welfare systems, especially going forward into the age of robotics; but I think practically speaking it would most likely be larded on top of current welfare systems, and that would be bad.
BC January 21, 2018 at 01:50 #145806
Reply to gurugeorge When the Guaranteed Basic Income was last seriously considered (during the Nixon administration) robotics wasn't a big issue. Then proposals were dropped. Now, 40 years later, robotics are THE major reason for thinking about how people who are not completely redundant will live.

I don't think the US can really afford both GBI and the existing welfare systems. Besides, GBI shouldn't be so little that many people would still need welfare, or so much that no one would ever need income supplements. For instance, a single person might not be able to afford housing on the GBI. If for some reason they can't find work, they may find that their income is not enough to afford rent. As a result, public housing programs will still be needed. The same will go for some families, many elderly, and disabled individuals.
Pseudonym January 21, 2018 at 08:29 #145854
Quoting Bitter Crank
Status and adequate pay will get the jobs done now, where as in the victorian period, the attraction was mostly pecuniary, and maybe not much career choice.


That's what I meant, without UBI we can get these jobs done for a pittance, with UBI we're going to have to pay people more and improve their job satisfaction in order to get them done. Both of these things cost a lot of money, so that cost needs to be included in the calculations. It's no good just using the simple payments as our only expense in the process. Where are the millions we now have to spend on street cleaning, waste handling etc going to come from, because people certainly aren't going to do them for a bit of extra pocket money?
celebritydiscodave January 21, 2018 at 18:16 #145918
The problem is not the basic wage it is what other folk charge those on the basic wage, what should be deemed unlawful amounts.. In the UK changing a patio door barrel lock, for instance, sets one back at least £110, cheapest quote, £75 minimum. of which is for labor. The operation of doing it takes at the very outside thirty seconds. Killing wasps up to £120 ,max duration on the job around two minutes, and cost of chemicals about two pounds.. It is only dangerous should one or two stings be dangerous. When you employ daily labor their rate is a constant but the number of hours in their working day is on the decline. When one tries to run a small business of their own charges on it are through the roof, it is treated as though a business which may well be in the red is some kind of a gold mine.. Improve pay and the greedy will likely grow still greedier. The problem is less that some people get paid too little and more that some people, many thousands of them, get paid too much, some far too much.. They wont complain that they are being paid too much so it is down to the rest of us to do that for them.
BC January 21, 2018 at 18:18 #145919
Quoting Pseudonym
without UBI we can get these jobs done for a pittance, with UBI we're going to have to pay people more and improve their job satisfaction in order to get them done.


And why would we not want to improve pay and job satisfaction? Millions of people devoting the better part of their waking hours to an unrewarding job (low pay, no satisfaction, and lots of stress) is a bad thing for the individual and society as a whole.

You are quite right that there would be knock-on costs above and beyond the pay out. The floor of acceptable pay and working conditions would rise, and should rise. Who can live working full time at the $7.25 minimum wage? That's about $15,000 a year, just $3000 above the federal poverty level for one person, and below the medicaid eligibility level, assuming the job was full time, which it probably isn't. Granted, people do eke out survival on wages that low, but in much of the country, and in most urban areas, it would be a grueling project.

Some states have minimum wage levels that are significantly higher than the federal level. Massachusetts and Washington have $11 MW. Some cities have set the minimum wage at $15, and some states are scheduled to reach $15 in a few years -- that's about $31,000 a year (if full time). There are, of course, places in the US where $31,000 is not enough to live well -- New York City, for instance, where rent for a small apartment can easily be more than $30,000 a year.

So, the UBI will affect the wage scale at the bottom. This will affect some industries much more than others, depending on what their pay structure is.

Most municipal and civil engineering workers are paid much more than a pittance to maintain the city: pick up garbage, maintain streets, keep the water and sewer working in good order, etc. A UBI would not come close to matching their wages and benefits.

There are many jobs that do not pay well, do not have good benefits, and have little or no security. Some of these are city, county, state, or federal government positions, but not many. Most of these are in the private sector. The temporary-work industry would be rather severely affected, I would think. So would child-care, retail, many non-unionized jobs, etc.
BC January 21, 2018 at 18:36 #145922
Quoting celebritydiscodave
This sounds more like a sociology come politics mix rather than anything remotely philosophy?


Paying people enough to live on is a matter of ethics. Isn't one of the topics in philosophy "the good life"? Do you think a good life can be better led in poverty than something better than poverty? How much do people need, want, deserve...?

Sounds like philosophy to me.
gurugeorge January 23, 2018 at 11:14 #146424
Reply to Bitter Crank I think the great advantage of UBI (from my own pro-capitalist point of view) is that entrepreneurial adventure is more likely to spontaneously develop.

If your basic income that keeps you alive and kicking comes without strings attached, then you can relax, and when you get bored with doing nothing, you are then free to gradually cobble together and tailor your own supplemental income as you fancy. You can save, you can incrementally take risks. And that's going to encourage people to fill in all sorts of economic micro-niches. It's really a much more suitable form of welfare for the modern age, precisely because it ditches the fiction of "lifetime employment" and encourages people to take responsibility for their lives; to stop thinking of work as being employed by someone else, and start thinking of self-employment as the norm.

It's also likely to re-awaken the development of more localized, intimate, resource-pooling solutions to welfare too (family, church, various new, at present unforeseeable kinds of small-scale socialistic and self-help types of social structures). This would have the added advantage of "de-atomizing" society to some extent.

IOW, from a pro-capitalist point of view, if you're going to have a welfare system at all, then negative income tax or a UBI is the way to do it. Milton Friedman said it ages ago: just give people some money with no strings attached, and ditch the vast, costly bureaucracy.

But as I say, it would be disastrous if it were just laid on top of the existing welfare system, and I fear, given the tendency of the State (and dependency on the State) to keep expanding, that's what's likely to happen.
BC January 23, 2018 at 16:51 #146511
Quoting gurugeorge
I think the great advantage of UBI (from my own pro-capitalist point of view) is that entrepreneurial adventure is more likely to spontaneously develop.

If your basic income that keeps you alive and kicking comes without strings attached, then you can relax, and when you get bored with doing nothing, you are then free to gradually cobble together and tailor your own supplemental income as you fancy. You can save, you can incrementally take risks. And that's going to encourage people to fill in all sorts of economic micro-niches.


Yes, I think that's why people like Friedman favored it, in addition to it being simpler and cheaper to administer.

Quoting gurugeorge
it would be disastrous if it were just laid on top of the existing welfare system


I agree. We can't afford both systems.

In some ways, the social service welfare system is an employment program, NOT for the recipients of services but for the employees who deliver and administer it. I'm not suggesting that people who work in these programs are parasitical drones who do nothing. Many of them are intelligent, hard-working, well educated professionals who take their work very seriously. The problem is that what many recipients of services need is... MORE MONEY and not more services.

I don't want to push that point too far, because there really are people who need social services above and beyond needing more money, and they would need social services even if they were rich.

My first job after college was in VISTA, the domestic peace corps, 1968. I worked at a job corps on the east coast. We had about 100 corpsmen and the budget for the place was roughly a million dollars. The corpsmen were there for about a year, costing $10,000 each, or roughly $70,000 in today's dollar value (using the Federal Reserve Chained CPI calculator).

It was a very good program with talented, hard-working staff. But fully remediating the deficiencies of the corpsmen would have taken several years -- maybe 4, or $280,000 in todays money, or $7000 a year for 40 years--about what a UBI would have given them.

The Job Corps staff were well paid; the facility made a nice contribution to the local economy. It was a very interesting place to work. But whether, on balance, it was worth it financially, I'm not certain.
gurugeorge January 24, 2018 at 02:56 #146715
Reply to Bitter Crank Quoting Bitter Crank
In some ways, the social service welfare system is an employment program, NOT for the recipients of services but for the employees who deliver and administer it.


I think there's a bit of that, yes, and it's a huge cost.

Another major factor is the ideological factor - welfare systems are sometimes the result of socialist ideologues pushing socialistic demands as far as they can within the checks and balances of a democratic system. That being the case, there's this peculiar "stickiness" or mired quality, or sclerotic quality, to the systems - they're fought for to be maintained and expanded because they have a sacrosanct symbolic meaning for people. Meanwhile the real effect - whether they're really helping people, or whether the system could be designed to be more efficient and helpful without the ideological agenda - seems to be a secondary consideration.

Or sometimes they're attempts from the Right to defuse socialist agitation (as per Bismarck's original welfare state system) - and that's where you get the odd connection to morality, you know, the welfare system has have moralistic strings attached, or it's connected to ideas like "the deserving poor."

I think the road less travelled is what I mentioned: instead of State-run welfare, what we should really have is a thriving patchwork of spontaneous self-help solutions using pooled resources. People naturally came up with things like this during the 19th century - unions, friendly societies, co-operatives, etc. Education too was something that was done out of pooled resources.

You'd think that socialistically-minded people would be pleased to encourage and help along people's spontaneous efforts at self-help like that - and I think some did. But unfortunately socialism went in another direction, and such organizations were co-opted as the supposed vanguard of Marxist revolution, and their original home-grown functions fell by the wayside.

I really envision something like a parallel system that runs alongside capitalism, where instead of buying insurance like well-off people do, poor and disadvantaged people pool what resources they have and create their own organizations and social structures (even do things like invest, etc.) to see them through tough times and protect themselves against capitalist "bad weather." This would be much better for people's dignity and self-respect too - they're not getting "handouts", they're active in their own protection.

Even if you're talking about people with "mental illness," (I don't like that term, but what the hey) this would be a better solution. My friend works in music therapy, and I've helped him out with events. From observation, I think the mentally ill get better when they are able to direct their own lives as best they can, when they can feel a sense of agency instead of solely being objects of help and pity. There are so many people who are "broken" in some way whose lives would be helped much better by people helping them to help themselves, rather than them being swallowed up in bureaucratic machinery, State-run psychiatric systems. etc.

I wish socialists in the best sense (people who genuinely want to help) instead of agitating for stupid, unworkable economics and trying to take over the system top-down, would actually get their hands dirty and help people set up things like that. It would be more rewarding for them too.
BC January 24, 2018 at 06:18 #146751
Quoting gurugeorge
I wish socialists in the best sense ... would actually get their hands dirty and help people set up things like that. It would be more rewarding for them too.


Have you read much of Ralph Waldo Emerson, the American Transcendentalist? In his essay, Self-Reliance he says,

Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the manhood of every one of its members. Society is a joint-stock company, in which the members agree, for the better securing of his bread to each shareholder, to surrender the liberty and culture of the eater. The virtue in most request is conformity. Self-reliance is its aversion. It loves not realities and creators, but names and customs.

Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist.


There is a tradition in American history of doing exactly what you propose: There were various communities in the 19th century, surviving into the 20th, that did what you suggest. The Shaker communities were one such example, now extinct (they believed in celibacy). The Amish self-insure themselves: the community contracts with a hospital in their area to provide health care at a specified price, and the community collectively pays the bills.

Elsewhere, the Grameen Bank loans money to self-help groups. The loans are very small (maybe... $100). They are designed to be seed money for individual projects in this world countries. Maybe the project is to collect plastic bags and wash, sew, or melt the bags, and make the plastic bags into some other kind of product. A few women can start a micro-business of making something useful that can be sold, earn money, pay the little loan back over time, then borrow slightly larger sums, and so on.

Farm Cooperatives have been useful organizations to help small farmers store and manage the sale of commodity crops.

On the other hand, because the US was a very, very big place, and undeveloped people spread out as they moved west and weren't close enough to each other to do a lot of cooperation until later on. Small school districts might include 20 families who built the famous "one room school house" and hired a teacher to educate their sons and daughters. These small very diversified school districts lasted up until the 1950s-maybe 1960 at the latest. Then they were consolidated.

One of the motivations behind the New Deal programs during the Great Depression. like Social Security, unemployment, and so on was to lessen the risk of revolutionary activity in the working classes (which was, is, most people).

Shawn January 24, 2018 at 06:26 #146752
Quoting Bitter Crank
The Shaker communities were one such example, now extinct (they believed in celibacy).


The line of the year.
gurugeorge January 25, 2018 at 14:37 #146946
Reply to Bitter Crank Good info there, thanks.

A possibility I see coming is a population spread away from cities, even away from suburbs, to a more country/villagey lifestyle. The advent of the internet means it's possible to earn a living doing sophisticated intellectual work without having to do too much physical person-to-person networking, and I think given the increasingly dystopian nature of cities, that option is going to be more and more attractive, to all income brackets. Perhaps then we'll see a return to the kind of lifestyle that's most intrinsically satisfying to most people (not all, but most - bell curve again) - out in nature, knowing intimately a small group of people. That will be a good context for those older forms of self-help and mutual aid to make a return.

Cities in the future will probably be a mixture of poor urban areas (although probably much better off than today), robot factories, gated communities and city centers where young people hungry for success in professional fields where face-to-face networking is important will congregate. But the city as a human nexus is losing its raison d'etre (or perhaps better to say, its costs are starting to outweigh its benefits for most people).
BC January 25, 2018 at 16:31 #146957
Reply to gurugeorge I agree, and disagree. There is some outward movement into the "exurban" territory beyond the outer ring of suburbs. True. The internet facilitates tele-commuting, so that business can sometimes be conducted in high decentralized groups, degrees can be earned on-line, Amazon... On the other hand, some companies are finding that it really does work better when people are in the same room together. While internet commerce is growing, 90% of commerce is still conducted face to face, in brick & mortar settings.

Quoting gurugeorge
given the increasingly dystopian nature of cities


I strongly disagree with this view. I grew up in a rural town of 1800 people, and was immensely happy to get the hell out of there when i finished high school. There are, indeed, good points about small villages, but the treasures of civilization both dwell in, and depend on The City to exist.

Granted, some people do not like the city, and not because it is dystopian. They dislike 1-way streets, a lack of large flat free parking lots, dense traffic at rush-hours, and stuff like that. Mostly what they dislike is the "urban core" or the central business district. Many people also dislike the higher level of diversity one finds in the city. The city, of course, allows for, sometimes enforces, anonymity. Anonymity is one of the things that thrilled me about large cities: Now that I am getting old, I'm not quite so thrilled about anonymity, but it still is better than the "everyone knows you" small town.

There are sort of dystopian areas in the city. Those are caused either by poverty (the slums, shootings, etc.) or too little street traffic, which is what a lot of downtown cores become by about 6:00 in the evening. "Street life" which makes a city core interesting generally involves lower value real estate. Cities often wreck themselves by trying "urban renewal" where high-value buildings replace low value buildings (the kind that house restaurants, art galleries, porn shops, bars--all the stuff that leads to an interesting street.

"Block E" was the middle of a very lively stretch in downtown Minneapolis. There were 2 regular bookstores, a few cheap cafes, a couple of porn shots, a couple of questionable bars--all that sort of thing. The city's mothers and fathers thought it was disreputable; it attracted too many people for the wrong reasons. So, it was leveled and replaced with more respectable entertainment and nightclub 'center'. It bombed miserably. On another street, a perfect arrangement of used book stores, coffee shops, restaurants, art galleries, a few nice bars, and so forth had formed. It was there for about 10 years, then it was replaced by several office towers. More dead streets.
BC January 25, 2018 at 16:35 #146958
Quoting gurugeorge
its costs are starting to outweigh its benefits for most people).


But urbanization is a long-term trend that hasn't reversed. By a large majority, maybe... 60% to 70%, most people in the world are living in cities, and much of that on the coasts. Cities are much more efficient than having people distributed across the countryside, doing what they do in the city. Cities are more energy efficient too.

Efficiency isn't everything, but with 7.3 billion people heading for 8 and 9 billion fairly soon, efficiency counts for a lot. Better to have good agricultural land remain agricultural, and cities be dense.
gurugeorge January 26, 2018 at 04:45 #147045
Reply to Bitter Crank Quoting Bitter Crank
Cities often wreck themselves by trying "urban renewal" where high-value buildings replace low value buildings (the kind that house restaurants, art galleries, porn shops, bars--all the stuff that leads to an interesting street.


Yeah I agree with that. But I stand by my prediction, although neither of us will probably be alive to see whether it comes true or not! :)
BC January 26, 2018 at 05:07 #147048
Quoting gurugeorge
I stand by my prediction


Somebody will just have to wait and see. I'm hoping to get out of here relatively soon, like... 10 years from now, preferably. 80 will be old enough.
Punshhh January 26, 2018 at 07:23 #147055
Reply to Bitter Crank I understand and agree with what you're saying in respect of cities, although from my perspective, it is specific to the US. Here in the U.K. The situation is quite different, every city can be reached within a day's travel. Certainly in the southern half of England, all the main cities are within a couple of hours, or so, travelling time from each other and many people live in the countryside between cities and commute into town. Indeed this is the trend for the more affluent, many cities are populated with people living in relative poverty, crammed into small houses, flats, council estates, where there is an air of hostility, dirt, lack of social infrastructure, sink estates etc. The cities and large towns are compact and restricted for space, as there are green belts around most urban areas and a severe housing and real estate crisis. Around each city are affluent commuter/dormitory towns and villages, in which any sense of community has been stripped out. With the indigenous/local population often swept out of the way and living in Council estates, or trailer parks, largely hidden from view. Country villages where everyone knows everyone else are rare and are mostly in the most provincial extremities of the country.
I think the situation on the ground is different in each country in the world due to geography and cultural development.
prothero January 29, 2018 at 03:29 #147766
In the current economy if you do not have a job, you do not have money (except by welfare). If you do not have money, you cannot buy food, pay rent or meet even the basic necessities of life. There has been a fairly rapid disappearance of middle income jobs with good benefits and future retirement. We now have the well educated, skilled and well paid and the less educated less skilled and poorly paid.
This is not good for the society and particularly not good for democracy.

It may be that the economies of the future will not be capable of generating enough good paying jobs to allow their citizens to meet their basic needs much less support a lifestyle where the "pursuit of happiness" has any meaning. It is hard to be happy when you they turn your electricity off, shut off the water and evict your family into the street and there is no food to eat.

It is no longer necessarily true that if you are wiling to work hard you can get ahead. Social mobility in the United States is decreasing. Many 40 hour or longer manual labor jobs pay minimum wage and those who feel no empathy should try living on the minimum wage. This is not to mention those who can find only part time work with no benefits, no regular hours and thus no reliable steady income.

In this situation, providing a minimum income (or negative income tax) may be the best solution to the problem allowing all citizens to at least have a dry warm place to sleep, clothing to wear and food to eat. In fact it might not only be the ethical and moral thing to do but a way to assure the survival of the culture and society as a whole. Some countries (Scandinavian where social democracy has a strong hold) are already experimenting with this concept.
Maw January 29, 2018 at 22:36 #148096
The biggest skepticism and contention I have with UBI is that it's frequently used by libertarian-types to substitute and replace services the government provides with a cheaper alternative that, because it's not directed towards particular public or individual needs, are less useful.
gurugeorge January 30, 2018 at 15:04 #148237
Quoting Bitter Crank
Somebody will just have to wait and see.


Just a suggestive addendum to our conversation. From https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-screwed-millennial-generation-gets-smart?ref=home?ref=home

"Despite endless talk about millennials as the group triggering a “back to the city” movement, census data shows that their populations in many core cities are stagnating or declining. In April 2016, the real estate website Trulia found that millennials were rushing out of expensive cities, with the group making up roughly a quarter of the population in New York and Washington, D.C., but accounting for half of all departures from them."
BC January 30, 2018 at 16:59 #148256
Reply to gurugeorge Interesting article.

One always has to be cautious about the glib generalizations of journalists who, more often than not, do not accurately represent the groups they are covering. The idea of the various generations (whether it be "the greatest generation, the baby boom generation, their children, their grand children the millennials, and generation X) having these very unique characteristics seems to me to have the ring of baloney.

Sure, there are generational differences because economics and culture change, but watching TV on the internet instead of over-the-air broadcasting is not a revolutionary act. Or not driving a car and owning a home because you can't afford it isn't a radical act of rebellion.

In general, people tend to strongly resemble their parents. They cluster with their peers. People who grew up in the suburbs are likely in the long run to return to live there. People move to urban cores for various reasons, among which are being possible to live without a car, rental housing is easier to find, services are closer, and there is more anonymity and diversity in the urban core which makes it easier for odd balls to fit in.

Some cities, and some parts of cities, are too expensive for any but the well established to live. It isn't a choice, it's economics. That goes for suburbs too; some suburbs and exurbs are just very expensive, and intend to stay that way.

Millennials aren't the first generation to have difficulty getting established in their 20s. I don't think it has ever been easy to get established in one's 20s. If one married at 18 or 20, had children, took the kind of jobs that were available in one's given time and place, had the usual good and bad experiences typical of being alive, then life was going to be tough sometimes for the first 15 to 20 years, until the children grew up and went out on their own. Later, one's income would be greater and expenses would be lessened and one could enjoy life more. Only the lucky few can start out in life with plentiful money.

All that being said, many people in the post-baby-boom generations haven't done as well as previous generations -- not because their values were different, but because of changes in the economic operation of the country. Ordinary people in the middle of the working class have experienced less favorable economic conditions that began around 40 years ago. It became more difficult to get ahead. Certain groups like professionals, entrepreneurs (if they were successful), the very well educated and highly skilled have done very well, but that is not a huge slice of the population.