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The 9th question

TheMadFool January 16, 2018 at 16:17 11400 views 53 comments
Our question repertoire consists of the following:
1. What?
2. Where?
3. How?
4. Which?
5. When?
6. Who?
7. Why?
8. Whose?

I haven't thought about this too much but I've ordered them in the order in which they must've evolved.

In my opinion ''what?'' is the most basic question. It opens inquiry and petitions for knowledge. I don't know how language evolved but surely the first attempts at communication started off by naming objects. What is this? This is water. What is this? This is fire. And so on...

The other questions, I believe, grew from ''what?'' as experience became sophisticated and language evolved to capture the essence of our experiences. For instance ''where?'' involves as concept of space and ''when?'' requires a concept of time. ''Where?'' and ''When?'' can easily, and without loss of any meaning can be rephrased as ''what is the location?'' and ''what is the time?'' That's what I mean when I said ''what?'' is the first step of inquiry. The same reasoning applies to the other questions.

I don't know why questions mutliplied, given that ''what?'' is sufficent to ask any question at all. Off the top of my head I can think of two reasons:

1. Linguistic convenience: It's easier to ask ''when?'' than the long-winded ''what is the time?''

2. The concept that has its own question has special importance. For instance ''who?'' reflects the concept of personal identity - something unique AND important for humans. ''Why?'' indicates the importance of rationality.

There may be other reasons but I'm not aware of them.

My question is is it time to expand this question repertoire? Do we have certain experiences that, out of being unique AND important or some other thing, deserve their own specific question?

Mathematics is now the language of science. Without numbers people don't take you seriously. Yet English still asks quantitative questions with ''how many?'' Of course it's not that inconvenient to ask ''how many?'' but the concept of quantity not having its own question is very odd given what I said. Some languages like Hindi (India) have a specific question on quantity viz. ''Kitna?'' which translated means ''how many?'' So, shouldn't English develop its own dedicated question for quantity?

The above is just one example. I'm not up-to-date with current trends but do environmental or moral issues deserve their own specific question?

So, kindly frame your 9th question and tell me why you think this question is necessary.

Comments (53)

charleton January 16, 2018 at 17:15 #144595
Quoting TheMadFool
I haven't thought about this too much but I've ordered them in the order in which they must've evolved.


Where light? OR Where food? comes before "What" since we pretty much know what food is. When primitive tube animals sought out food, they ingested stuff before they knew what it was. Which is pretty much tied up with what is and is not food.
T Clark January 16, 2018 at 17:31 #144598
Reply to TheMadFool

There really is only one question, so it must be the first. All other questions are subsidiary:

What do I do now?

To me, that's different than "what?"
mcdoodle January 16, 2018 at 22:24 #144655
Reply to T Clark To keep up the pithy w-ness, your question could be just

Will? (or Whither?)

...to which I would add...

Was?

Metaphysician Undercover January 17, 2018 at 01:04 #144673
Quoting TheMadFool
Mathematics is now the language of science. Without numbers people don't take you seriously. Yet English still asks quantitative questions with ''how many?'' Of course it's not that inconvenient to ask ''how many?'' but the concept of quantity not having its own question is very odd given what I said. Some languages like Hindi (India) have a specific question on quantity viz. ''Kitna?'' which translated means ''how many?'' So, shouldn't English develop its own dedicated question for quantity?


Isn't "how many?" very similar to "how much?", which is what we commonly ask for the cost or price of something. The fact that we say it as two words in English, while other languages say it as one word, seems irrelevant.
Vajk January 17, 2018 at 02:23 #144686
Streetlight January 17, 2018 at 02:37 #144693
An interesting excercise. Have to agree with Charleton though that 'where?' easily stands as the prima interrogazione, and for the same reasons: where food? where safety? where predator? - are all far more pressing than the overly intellectualized 'what?' question. Another interesting facet of the 'where?' question is that it is thoroughly 'deixical' or perspectival: it always refers to the time and space of the speaker - where in relation to me?, or, where in relation to the tribe? It is a question in the first or second person, and not in the third.

And speaking of space and time, 'where'? also unsettles the question of priority more generally, insofar as 'where?' can be understood both spatially and temporally - where in space? where in time? Which in turn implicates a whole slew of others: which direction? How soon will I get there/when will they arrive? There's a real sense in which all yhese questions are co-implicated in each other and cannot be artificially teased apart. In fact, there's an argument to be made (in fact it has been made, and I agree with it!) that the question of 'what?' is the least substantial of all the basic questions, insofar as it is the most removed from the first person and thus the most divorced from the reality of life - an unfortunate state of affiars because 'what?' questions have been taken to define the direction of philosophy since Plato. Deleuze:

"The [Platonic] Idea, the discovery of the Idea, is inseparable from a certain type of question. The Idea is in the first place an “objecticity [objectité] which, as such, corresponds to a way of posing questions. It only responds to the call of certain questions. It is in Platonism that the question of the Idea is determined under the form: What is...? This noble question is supposed to concern the essence, and is opposed to vulgar questions which only refer to the example or the accident. Thus you do not ask who is beautiful, but what is the Beautiful. Not where and when there is justice, but what is the Just. Not how “two” is obtained, but what is the dyad. Not how much, but what... All of Platonism thus seems to oppose a major question, always taken up again and repeated by Socrates as that of the essence or the Idea, to minor questions of opinion which only express confused ways of thinking, whether in old men or awkward children, or in sophists and over-skilful orators." (Deleuze, The Method of Dramatization).

Deleuze's suggestion of course is that we overturn entirely the priority of the 'what?' question, which has more or less debilitated philosophy for 2000 years. I think he's basically right about this.
cruffyd January 17, 2018 at 02:55 #144705
I ask your patience as I am new to forums, in general.

The 'journalistic' questions, (who, what, when, where, why) seem to be ordered properly. 'Who' is a good first question, since this would answer whether it is relevant to human existence, and gives matters of humanity primacy. 'What' would answer as to the subject matter. 'When, where, why, all seem to answer for 'how' and 'which'.

This would be an over-simplification given the inherent complexity of the potential matter being discussed, but not as a way to begin.
TheMadFool January 17, 2018 at 04:22 #144718
Quoting charleton
Where light? OR Where food? comes before "What" since we pretty much know what food is. When primitive tube animals sought out food, they ingested stuff before they knew what it was. Which is pretty much tied up with what is and is not food.


Quoting StreetlightX
where food? where safety? where predator? - are all far more pressing than the overly intellectualized 'what?' question.


But ''where?'' can be reduced to ''what is the location?'' It doesn't work the other way does it?

Quoting T Clark
There really is only one question, so it must be the first. All other questions are subsidiary:

What do I do now?

To me, that's different than "what?"


If that's important to you can you frame a question word like what?, where?, etc. for it. Tell us why it's important too.

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
Isn't "how many?" very similar to "how much?", which is what we commonly ask for the cost or price of something. The fact that we say it as two words in English, while other languages say it as one word, seems irrelevant


What is important to you? Does the answer to that question suggest to you a word question like ''what?'' or ''where?'' - a question word dedicated to the type of knowledge or experience you think matters?

Quoting StreetlightX
Deleuze's suggestion of course is that we overturn entirely the priority of the 'what?' question, which has more or less debilitated philosophy for 2000 years. I think he's basically right about this.


I disagree. All questions arise from ''what?'' as I've shown in the OP. Perhaps I don't understand your point but, to me, all questions can be reduced to ''what?''.
Streetlight January 17, 2018 at 04:31 #144723
Quoting TheMadFool
But ''where?'' can be reduced to ''what is the location?'' It doesn't work the other way does it?


Sure, you can change anything into a 'what' question if you play around with words enough, but you lose the specificity of the first-personness or the dexical/perspectival aspect of the initial 'where' question. In other words, you lose something in the translation: the 'reduction' reduces the question to a shell of what it was. You lose specificity for the sake of generality: but this latter is abstract and lifeless.

With respect to naming, Wittgenstein was among those who adequately demonstrated that naming is a tiny subset of all the things that we do with language, and is an awful model to base any philosophy of language upon. Nomination is among the most abstract things we do with language, with the major heavy-lifting borne instead by the indication of relations.
TheMadFool January 17, 2018 at 05:11 #144727
Quoting StreetlightX
In other words, you lose something in the translation: the 'reduction' reduces the question to a shell of what it was. You lose specificity for the sake of generality: but this latter is abstract and lifeless.


It looks quite complex. There seems to be certain other factors in the fray. Anyway, as you said and I agree, questions like ''where?'', ''who?'' have in them certain assumptions (about identity, consciousness, time, etc.) that make them significantly different from ''what'' rephrasing.

So, which area of human experience or knowledge deserves a separate question?
charleton January 17, 2018 at 08:31 #144741
Quoting TheMadFool
But ''where?'' can be reduced to ''what is the location?'' It doesn't work the other way does it?


Thus you invalidate your putative evolution of query!
You might as well ask "which item is food" and put THAT to the top of the list.
This ought to make us realise that language limits the way we express living praxis.
I image the 8th question is a conglomeration of all others.
TheMadFool January 17, 2018 at 14:20 #144804
Quoting charleton
Thus you invalidate your putative evolution of query!


I presented my views on the matter. I could be wrong of course. As @StreetlightX said we may not be able to untangle the questions into distinct evolutionary categories. I don't know why s/he said that but look at animals and us. Surely animals don't ask ''why?'' or ''who?'' My views are based on such clues as that.

Quoting charleton
I image the 8th question is a conglomeration of all others.


It cannot be. As you can see question-types diversified with, roughly speaking, knowledge. The point is how unique and special must an experience or knowledge be before it gets its own question?

An interesting issue my query suggests is how say a 4th/5th/nth dimensional being makes inquiry of the world. What impact would knowledge of a novel question, asked by an alien for example, have on human understanding?

To illustrate my point. Think of environmental impact. People, at least the concerned ones, are very sensitive to environmental issues. So, if we all think the environment is really important we could frame a question asking for the environmental effects of a thing. We do ask ''Is it environmentally friendly?'' or ''is it green technology?'' We could shorten the question for example by asking ''Green?'' or ''Green policy?''
Streetlight January 17, 2018 at 14:20 #144805
Oh yeah that reminds me: it's utterly irrelevant that 'how many?' is two words and the other questions listed are one word. The number of words is utterly arbitrary and reflects nothing other than local anthropological quirks. 'How many?' is it's own question and there's no use being silly about the number of words involved.
Streetlight January 17, 2018 at 14:21 #144806
Quoting TheMadFool
Surely animals don't ask ''why?'' or ''who?'' My views are based on such clues as that.


You need to read up on the intelligence of animals.

Quoting TheMadFool
I don't know why s/he said


I explained why, I suggest you go back and read.
TheMadFool January 17, 2018 at 14:22 #144807
Quoting StreetlightX
Oh yeah that reminds me: it's utterly irrelevant that 'how many?' is two words and the other questions listed are one word. The number of words is utterly arbitrary and reflects nothing other than local anthropological quirks. 'How many?' is it's own question and there's no use being silly about the number of words involved.


I did say one reason could be linguistic convenience or ease of communication. However, you can't deny that questions like ''who?'' and ''why?'' require some level of understanding of self, identiy or rationality.
Streetlight January 17, 2018 at 14:24 #144808
Quoting TheMadFool
However, you can't deny that questions like ''who?'' and ''why?'' require some level of understanding of self, identity or rationality.


Phrased as vaguely as that, one could deny or affirm a great deal without it having any iota of significance.
TheMadFool January 17, 2018 at 14:24 #144809
Quoting StreetlightX
You need to read up on the intelligence of animals.


It's not the case that ALL animals are self-aware. I've never seen an animal ask ''why?''
TheMadFool January 17, 2018 at 14:25 #144810
Quoting StreetlightX
Phrased as vaguely as that, one could deny or affirm a great deal without it having any iota of significance.


Help me phrase it better.
Streetlight January 17, 2018 at 14:30 #144811
Quoting TheMadFool
I've never seen an animal ask ''why?''


Then you haven't looked hard enough.

Quoting TheMadFool
Help me phrase it better.


It's your question.

Metaphysician Undercover January 17, 2018 at 14:55 #144814
Reply to TheMadFool
What question does simple curiosity express? To see something unusual and wonder about it doesn't necessarily imply any particular question. There is no necessity to assume "what?" is being asked, or "why?", or any such question. That is why your attempt to divide basic inquiry into these distinct categories, and place one as prior to the other, is ill-founded. The fundamental curiosity, or inquisitiveness, allows for the possibility of all these different questions.
TheMadFool January 17, 2018 at 15:04 #144817
Quoting StreetlightX
Then you haven't looked hard enough.


Give me one example of an animal asking the question ''why?''

Quoting StreetlightX
It's your question.


I'm looking for constructive criticism. Something that'll throw some light into matter. Kindly do so.

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
That is why your attempt to divide basic inquiry into these distinct categories, and place one as prior to the other, is ill-founded.


How else can we make sense of questions and the things each type of query implies?

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover
The fundamental curiosity, or inquisitiveness, allows for the possibility of all these different questions.


Yes. I agree but do you really think my inquiry is a dead end?
Streetlight January 17, 2018 at 15:12 #144819
Quoting TheMadFool
Give me one example of an animal asking the question ''why?''


Tell me what you understand to be at stake when a 'why?' question is posed. What kind of answer is being sought after, in your opinion?

Quoting TheMadFool
I'm looking for constructive criticism. Something that'll throw some light into matter.


It's not clear what 'matter' you're trying to throw light upon.
TheMadFool January 17, 2018 at 15:45 #144830
Quoting StreetlightX
What kind of answer is being sought after, in your opinion?


A reason in the logical sense.

Quoting StreetlightX
It's not clear what 'matter' you're trying to throw light upon.


Are the seven questions we know enough to make sense of reality? Can another door to knowledge be opened by adding another type of question to the known seven?

Imagine a two dimensional being living on a flat surface. It doesn't know what ''up'' means and so can never ask a question about ''up''. We, being 3 dimensional can ask questions about ''up''. What type of questions does a 4th dimensional being ask that is different and, probably, beyond our comprehension?
Streetlight January 17, 2018 at 15:50 #144834
Quoting TheMadFool
A reason in the logical sense


And to reason is to make inferences. It the height of silliness to think animals cannot make inferences or pose inferential questions.

And your 'seven questions' are an arbitrary garb-bag drawn from two seconds of thought. They are in no way comparable to the dimensional issue, which is, by contrast a well posed question.
charleton January 17, 2018 at 17:32 #144862
Quoting TheMadFool
It cannot be. As you can see question-types diversified with, roughly speaking, knowledge. The point is how unique and special must an experience or knowledge be before it gets its own question?


You've shot yourself in the foot already.
charleton January 17, 2018 at 17:38 #144864
Quoting TheMadFool
1. What?
2. Where?
3. How?
4. Which?
5. When?
6. Who?
7. Why?


1. Thingness
2. Space, and place.
3. Praxis
4. Category
5. Time.
6. Identity
7 Teleology

According to Kant. 2 & 5 take precedent over all other things being the most fundamental categories upon which our understanding of reality relies.
Without time and space the rest have no basis.
They should have evolutionary precedent.

Metaphysician Undercover January 18, 2018 at 01:16 #144976
Quoting TheMadFool
How else can we make sense of questions and the things each type of query implies?

Yes. I agree but do you really think my inquiry is a dead end?


I don't think the inquiry is a dead end per se, but I think it's rather pointless and misdirected. Ask yourself what kind of question are you asking with this inquiry. Is it an "is there" type of question? Notice all the questions that start with "is". Any statement which claims "it is the case that..." can be turned around to ask "is it the case that...?" That is skepticism.

I think that most serious inquiries involve a number of the factors you mentioned, mixed together. So I don't think your technique of dividing or classifying is quite right. For instance, who, why, and how, might all be asked together, as one class of inquiry, while where and when, might be classed together as another type, etc.. In other words, I don't think that your way of classifying the different types of questions really represents the different types of inquiries that we make. You would really need to take a serious look at all the different types of studies, sciences, social studies, philosophy, and maybe even art, all together, to determine the different types of inquiries that we, as human beings make.

TheMadFool January 18, 2018 at 03:25 #145002
Quoting StreetlightX
And to reason is to make inferences. It the height of silliness to think animals cannot make inferences or pose inferential questions.


But you will agree there's a difference of degrees between animal and human thinking. Human reasoning is more abstract than animals. Animals make inferences but not the kind humans are capable of.

Quoting StreetlightX
And your 'seven questions' are an arbitrary garb-bag drawn from two seconds of thought.


I was impatient. To tell you the truth I've kept it on the backburner for four whole years. Not really thinking on it except on some few occasions.

Quoting StreetlightX
They are in no way comparable to the dimensional issue, which is, by contrast a well posed question.


Thank you. I was actually aiming for that. I couldn't come up with a better analogy. I'm thinking of a different level/plane of experience/existence and how beings who're different from us make inquiry of the world. Are they too asking the same 7 seven questions or do they have more or less?

I then realized that a new type of question can be added to the existing 7 by simply looking for a type of experience or knowledge that is of sufficient significance to humans. This, of course, is nowhere as interesting as a 4th/5th dimensional question but it's a good starting point.

Perhaps there is no need to ask a new question as, well, no one till now has bothered to frame one. Even people with genius intellect haven't made such an effort. There must be a good reason why. What is this reason in your opinion?

All the new additions I can think of are simply examples of linguistic convenience e.g. ''is x environmentally sound?'' can be shortened with ''Green x?'' I can't think of a new question that's required because of something novel to humans e.g. experience of the 4th/5th dimension.

Quoting charleton
1. Thingness
2. Space, and place.
3. Praxis
4. Category
5. Time.
6. Identity
7 Teleology


Thank you for the explanation.

Reply to Metaphysician Undercover

Please read Charleton categories above.
Joshs January 18, 2018 at 03:44 #145007
Reply to TheMadFool What makes you think that we don't always already form new questions just by experiencing moment to moment?
Do you think the concepts that any individual has at any given time just sit there as static place markers? What we already know is engaged as a whole each moment of new experience. And subtly changed as a whole. This means that our understanding of ourselves and our world, whether we notice it or not, is always in process of transformation. The scientists have nothing over the average person, for each of us is a scientist in this important sense.
A finite list of abstract conceptual categories misses the point of the nature of meaning and how it changes.
TheMadFool January 18, 2018 at 03:49 #145010
Quoting Joshs
What makes you think that we don't always already form new questions just by experiencing moment to moment?


We do. We use variations of the existing 7 questions to form new questions daily. However, I'm looking for an entirely new type of question - something that has to be invented to open the door of inquiry to an entirely novel kind of knowledge.

If you're interested kindly read the other posts.
Joshs January 18, 2018 at 04:01 #145014
Reply to TheMadFool There is no such thing as any entirely novel kind of knowledge. It is impossible to apprehend a meaning of any kind if there is no way to assimilate it into pre-existing knowledge along lines of similarity. Thats why culture evolves. The entire history of philosophical and scientific development show this way that the new is always situated and framed by what we already know. One can link upthe genealogy of any history of knowledge via endless families of resemblance.
We think what we want is a complete break from what went before, but what we really want is a deepening and a continuity between the new and the familiar.
Joshs January 18, 2018 at 04:08 #145016
Reply to charleton I thought Kant'a categories were refuted a long time ago? Hegel anybody?
Joshs January 18, 2018 at 04:17 #145021
Reply to StreetlightX yes, the very fact that the questions he poses aren't aware of the context In which they are generated, and more importantly, that he may not see the sense of inquiring as to a situating context, could be the answer he seeks.
charleton January 18, 2018 at 09:06 #145073
Reply to Joshs
No Kant's work remains a good body of theory. Hegel is regarded as a mystic.
Every without Kant, what I said remains a good idea since the Idea that Kant had to assert time and space as necessarily grounding all other knowledge remains a good one.
Pseudonym January 18, 2018 at 10:50 #145088
The French for "how many?" is 'combien', one word. The French for "why?" is 'pourquoi', originally two words. "What?" doesn't even have a direct translation into French, being variously 'que', 'quoi', and 'qu'est-ce que'. I don't think the French have a radically different way of viewing the world to us, so I don't see how the singularity of a question like "why?" indicates that it is in some way more significant than, say "what colour?".
TheMadFool January 18, 2018 at 13:49 #145121
Quoting Joshs
There is no such thing as any entirely novel kind of knowledge.


I wish I had your conviction. I was and always was in a perpetual state of doubt. Even things like 2+2=4 is to me simply an allegation needing some kind of proof.

Quoting Joshs
The entire history of philosophical and scientific development show this way that the new is always situated and framed by what we already know.


Relativity was a novel idea and although it didn't really upset classical physics it did lead to, how shall I describe it, strange ideas like time dilation, time travel. Quantum physics did the same thing. Note, I'm no expert but I'm almost completely convinced that fact is stranger than fiction and just take a look at the variety and complexity of the latter. It may be that there are some truths just waiting to be plucked off the tree of knowledge if only we knew what questions to ask.

Quoting Joshs
We think what we want is a complete break from what went before, but what we really want is a deepening and a continuity between the new and the familiar


If you think continuity is required between two corpuses of knowledge I agree. [I]Usually[/i] knowledge builds up with simple foundations and diversifies into different disciplines. This has been the trend since we even began investigating the world. Thank you for the comment.

Reply to Pseudonym As I said in the OP there is a strong component of linguistic ease of expression in the 7 types of questions. It seems that ''why?'' was invented because it's easier to say it than the longer ''what is the reason?'' However, there's a different concept involved in ''why?'' - that of rationality and logic - that, to me, deserves its own question. Thus ''why?''

Are there other human experiences that are significant enough to deserve its own question?
Joshs January 19, 2018 at 20:12 #145519
Reply to charleton Obviously Hegel is regarded by you as a mystic. He is regarded by most of today's edifice of social science as the ground from which sprang naturalistic science of biological diverisficaiton and evolution, human cultural change and economic and political development, and psychological and psychotherapeutic dynamics, as well as liberal theology. Here's just a small sampling of those who considered Hegel's insights crucial:William James, John Dewey, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard,
Freud, Daniel Dennett, Foucault. Derrida, Heidegger, Piaget, the Pittsburgh school of analytic philosophy, Habermas, Adorno, Sartre,
"The Idea that Kant had to assert time and space as necessarily grounding all other knowledge remains a good one." Yes, but Hegel rejected Kant's transcendental categories.So while he agreed with Kant that space and time are subjective intuitions, against Kant he argued that they are at the same time properties of relations between objective things in the world also.
Most philosophers today move from Hegel rather than Kant on this point that space and time have inextricably both an objective and subjective aspect.

Akanthinos January 19, 2018 at 23:37 #145544
Reply to TheMadFool

Perhaps you have never raised a dog or a cat? A perplexed look is pretty much the same thing as the question "why".
Akanthinos January 19, 2018 at 23:40 #145546
Quoting Joshs
He is regarded by most of today's edifice of social science as the ground from which sprang naturalistic science of biological diverisficaiton and evolution, human cultural change and economic and political development, and psychological and psychotherapeutic dynamics, as well as liberal theology.


Huh... no?
Akanthinos January 19, 2018 at 23:56 #145548
Reply to Pseudonym Quoting Pseudonym
"What?" doesn't even have a direct translation into French, being variously 'que', 'quoi', and 'qu'est-ce que'. I don't think the French have a radically different way of viewing the world to us, so I don't see how the singularity of a question like "why?" indicates that it is in some way more significant than, say "what colour?".


"Quoi?" is an acceptable way of asking "what?" in French, but you have to be careful with your intonation, because it can easily be perceived as rude. It's more often a way to signify that you haven't understood what was just said...
Akanthinos January 20, 2018 at 01:20 #145559
Quoting charleton
Without time and space the rest have no basis.
They should have evolutionary precedent.


Time and space have structural priority. They are, in a way, the first "dimensions" that must be exploited in developing any functional structure (and, in many sense, even structures without functions).

However, from the point of view of the unit of life, Time and Space can well be superfluous. Living time reflect dynamical recurring values ~ different degrees of lighting, heat, energy (night and day, summer and winter). There is a nearly infinite possible combination of these dynamical values, and the vast majority are not "part of our time". Minute cyclical variations in the degree of ambient radioactivity isn't part of human time, but it might be for unicellular lifeforms which might be destroyed by any un-predicted change in that value... or such things.
charleton January 20, 2018 at 15:51 #145682
Quoting Joshs
He is regarded by most of today's edifice of social science as the ground from which sprang naturalistic science of biological diverisficaiton and evolution, human cultural change and economic and political development, and psychological and psychotherapeutic dynamics, as well as liberal theology.


You have no evidence here that Hegel or any one of your list of thinkers (presumably pulled out of the Table of Contents of "The Ladybird's Book of Clever Blokes for Girls"), would refute Kant's excellent idea that Space and Time are necessary preconditions to ask any question.
TheMadFool January 20, 2018 at 17:13 #145699
Quoting Akanthinos
Perhaps you have never raised a dog or a cat? A perplexed look is pretty much the same thing as the question "why".


(Y)

Their sharp fangs made me think of other things.
BlueBanana January 20, 2018 at 21:36 #145754
Quoting TheMadFool
But ''where?'' can be reduced to ''what is the location?''


"What" in this context is different than "what" in general. Ie. What is the location of the object? The location is the part of space where the state of having the asked object is true.
BlueBanana January 20, 2018 at 21:38 #145755
Quoting TheMadFool
Human reasoning is more abstract than animals.


Can you speak in a civilized manner without insulting animals?
TheMadFool January 21, 2018 at 03:32 #145811
Quoting BlueBanana
Can you speak in a civilized manner without insulting animals?


(Y) sorry. No offence intended. There's a thin line between fact and insult.
Akanthinos January 21, 2018 at 04:18 #145817
Reply to TheMadFool

Wouldn't you agree, tho, that an entity disposed toward seeking information about a state that is current, is not doing something in an entirely different scale than an entity which is asking "why" in the hope that some other agent will provide him linguistically the same information? The first entity would be said to be disposed to ask "why?", if it had any linguistic performance available.

Joshs January 21, 2018 at 08:23 #145852
Reply to Akanthinos Not just Hegel , of course, but the movement of Evolutionist German Romantic idealism of which he was a part. The advent of the social sciences in the 19th century owed more to Kant than to Hegel, but in 2018, much of the social sciences(certainly sociology, anthropology, psychology, cultural studies, ethnography) show the influence of Hegelian and post-Hegelian thought.
Joshs January 21, 2018 at 08:27 #145853
Reply to Akanthinos Maybe they're asking "what"
TheMadFool January 22, 2018 at 09:09 #146060
Quoting Akanthinos
Wouldn't you agree, tho, that an entity disposed toward seeking information about a state that is current, is not doing something in an entirely different scale than an entity which is asking "why" in the hope that some other agent will provide him linguistically the same information? The first entity would be said to be disposed to ask "why?", if it had any linguistic performance available.


Yes, I agree. Questions needn't be symbolized. Do you think non-symbolic (non-linguistic) inquiry is better/worse than having language-based questions? Is there something interesting in the questioning tilt of a dog's head than all of the questions in philosophy?
Akanthinos January 23, 2018 at 06:26 #146375
Quoting TheMadFool
Do you think non-symbolic (non-linguistic) inquiry is better/worse than having language-based questions?


Well, I doubt it would make much sense to deny how linguistic inquiry is capable of so much more than non-symbolic inquiry. With a question, you can bypass every effort needed to find the answer by yourself, which is why it's so goddamn annoying when people constantly prefer to ask questions instead of seeking answers for themselves. They expect all the labour's fruits with none of the labour. I would be hard-pressed to find a line of argument to justify that prelinguistic world interaction is more powerful than the linguistic one. That's not what interest me.

Quoting TheMadFool
Is there something interesting in the questioning tilt of a dog's head than all of the questions in philosophy?


Yes! Absolutely! I have always been completely convinced that there is more truth and wisdom about the world contained in the interactions of a toddler with its toy, of a dog with its owner, in the way you walk into a house for the first time, then in all the books you'll ever find about the subject. But that's more about my existential approach to knowledge than about the subject, really.

Language infects and transform everything it touches. Once thrown in the world of language, there is no stepping back, not in any meaningful way for philosophy and epistemology, anyways. The tilt of the dog's head, the large, fixated eyes of the cat with it's exclamative vocalization, these are our last anchors back to this prelinguistic reality.

And it's not like language doesn't come with its own cost, too. It warps just as it infects reality. As someone who was suicidal for a while, let me tell you, your own language can kill you just as easily as someone else's gun. It doesn't have to be all that dramatic either. Shame doesn't make much sense to prelinguistic beings. A master might be able to shame his dog, but I've never seen a dog shame another.

TheMadFool January 23, 2018 at 07:02 #146383
Quoting Akanthinos
I would be hard-pressed to find a line of argument to justify that prelinguistic world interaction is more powerful than the linguistic one.


I think we still resort to prelinguistic questioning. A perplexed look, for example, is very similar to one that a dog/cat sometimes expresses.

Quoting Akanthinos
And it's not like language doesn't come with its own cost, too. It warps just as it infects reality.


Can you expand on that. How does language infect reality?

I'm not sure but it can be said that language is a mode of communication. Thinking, even rational thinking, doesn't need language as such. As other posters here have commented even animals are capable of thought (that's an interesting topic in itself). So, some important nuances of truth may have been sacrificed for ease of communication. Do you mean that?
Akanthinos January 23, 2018 at 07:29 #146391
Quoting TheMadFool
I think we still resort to prelinguistic questioning. A perplexed look, for example, is very similar to one that a dog/cat sometimes expresses.


It never remains prelinguistic for long. The perplexed look is either a lead to an exclamative thought or a sign that leads to an explanation of another's thoughts. Our brains have stewed too long in a symbolic universe not to constantly fall back to that mode of relation.

Quoting TheMadFool
Can you expand on that. How does language infect reality?


It infects our relation to the world, forcing us to constantly name everything, predicate everything, conjuguate everything. It coopt everyone of our cognitive functions and obscure their reality, relegating them to the nether of subconsciousness. It turns us into infectuous agents, categorizing, ordering and itemizing everything so as to relate easier to it, as if that was any easier than just living in it. And in turn, it obscure the reality of the world, by legitimizing questions regarding the existence of concepts. Dogs and cats aren't idealists.

Of course, this infection is a sort of commensalism, it is for the most often either neutral or positive for the host. It can also be incredibly negative.