You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

Intrinsic Value

Mitchell December 21, 2017 at 17:04 13550 views 44 comments
To have intrinsic value is to be desirable in and of itself, independently of whether it leads to anything else. The primary example of something that has intrinsic value is Pleasure. Hedonism is the Value-Theory that asserts that Pleasure/enjoyment is the ONLY thing that has intrinsic value. Can you think of anything else that has intrinsic value?

Comments (44)

Cavacava December 21, 2017 at 17:23 #135924
Reply to Mitchell

Pleasure is only pleasurable in regards to something else...you take pleasure in a glass of wine...so it can't be intrinsically valuable. Also pleasure is always a becoming it is never an end in itself.
Noble Dust December 21, 2017 at 17:34 #135925
Reply to Mitchell

Human life.
sime December 21, 2017 at 17:50 #135929
Quoting Mitchell
The primary example of something that has intrinsic value is Pleasure. Hedonism is the Value-Theory that asserts that Pleasure/enjoyment is the ONLY thing that has intrinsic value.


that looks to me like a grammatical proposition that is true by definition and hence amounts to as much as saying "I like what I like". i.e. our language doesn't represent what we mean by value, rather our use of language expresses it.
_db December 21, 2017 at 20:07 #135944
Quoting Mitchell
Can you think of anything else that has intrinsic value?


Knowledge, virtue, justice (the distribution of goods based on merit), beauty. Hedonism is false because it misinterprets these other goods as being derivative from pleasure when in fact they stand independently of pleasure.

It is tempting to adopt hedonism, however, because sensuous experiences, particularly pain, seem to motivate people far more effectively than anything else. Other goods may be independently good, but nevertheless may require that there be a certain threshold of pain that is kept in check. We cannot pursue knowledge, or act virtuously, or distribute justice, or appreciate beauty when we are suffering. It does seem to be the case that, when push comes to shove, suffering and pleasure usually disable these other goods, and not the other way around.
bloodninja December 22, 2017 at 06:41 #136105
Quoting darthbarracuda
It does seem to be the case that, when push comes to shove, suffering and pleasure usually disable these other goods, and not the other way around.


Good point!
Moliere December 22, 2017 at 06:51 #136109
Seems an odd start because most defenders of intrinsic value are usually against pleasure. :D Not to say I am one of them....

Though I think it does depend on what you mean by pleasure.

I sort of wonder about the phrase "in and of itself" to be honest. And "desire" too since it's a defining term of said term -- if something is desirable without leading to anything else then isn't that just what pleasure means? To satisfy desire, to find what one is lacking (at least in a usual sense of desire) -- isn't that just tautological to your definition of intrinsic value?
fishfry December 22, 2017 at 08:21 #136130
Quoting Mitchell
To have intrinsic value is to be desirable in and of itself


How about defining intrinsic value as value that's not derived from common agreement. Food, for example. The value of food does not depend on people believing in it, in contrast to things like dollars or bitcoin whose value is a function of society's belief in it.

T Clark December 22, 2017 at 08:22 #136132
Quoting Mitchell
To have intrinsic value is to be desirable in and of itself, independently of whether it leads to anything else.


If that's the definition of "intrinsic value," then I don't think it exists. Values that I would think of as intrinsic are those that are built into us as humans. Let's see - pleasure, ok. What else, avoidance of pain and fear; love for family; desire for human attachment; satisfaction of hunger, thirst, and sexual desire. I'm not sure of all of those and there are others not listed.
anonymous66 December 22, 2017 at 13:52 #136227
Reply to Mitchell The Virtues.
Susu December 22, 2017 at 14:43 #136235
Honestly, when I think of intrinsic value I always ask, according to who or what? Because objectively speaking, reality has no intrinsic value, and by virtue of saying so is tantamount to a person holding superstitious believes positing that something has some sort of "meaning". The word intrinsic implies belonging to or innate to something. When we value something, we desire said thing. The question is who does it belong to, why and how?

We desire pleasure, but pleasure is subjective and every person derives pleasure from whatever they desire. The point is humans, being naturally evolved creatures, have a set of genes that drives them to bear intrinsic values. Food is intrinsically valuable to us for obvious reasons.

The word "value" is a strange concept if you think about it. It seems like biological organisms are the only ones who bear this thing since we have this qualia we call "pain" and we rather steer clear of it.

We, humans, have more sophisticated values because we evolutionarily developed intellect. We value education, our personal hobbies, money... abstract things that go beyond basic animalistic instinct.

Other natural phenomenon don't bear this thing we like to call value, for example, does fire have "value"? when you steer a raging ember, fire doesn't long to stay ablaze. The flame is equally neutral to being oxidised or bereft of oxygen while living things have this natural propensity towards things that will help them survive.
Sam26 December 22, 2017 at 21:07 #136289
Quoting Mitchell
To have intrinsic value is to be desirable in and of itself, independently of whether it leads to anything else. The primary example of something that has intrinsic value is Pleasure. Hedonism is the Value-Theory that asserts that Pleasure/enjoyment is the ONLY thing that has intrinsic value. Can you think of anything else that has intrinsic value?


Knowledge, love, persons, virtue, are other examples of things that have intrinsic value.
Sam26 December 22, 2017 at 21:10 #136291
Reply to Cavacava The pleasure you get from wine or other things has intrinsic value. It's your experience regardless of where it come from.
Shawn December 22, 2017 at 21:11 #136292
Reply to Sam26

It can have instrumental value, no?
Sam26 December 22, 2017 at 21:18 #136297
Reply to Posty McPostface Yes, many things that have intrinsic value have extrinsic value also. Paper money has extrinsic value, but very little, if any, intrinsic value.
Shawn December 22, 2017 at 21:19 #136299
Reply to Sam26

So, how does one differentiate from what has instrumental value over intrinsic value? After all one could say reasonably that everything is of instrumental value to the self interested man.
Sam26 December 22, 2017 at 21:26 #136302
Quoting Posty McPostface
So, how does one differentiate from what has instrumental value over intrinsic value? After all one could say reasonably that everything is of instrumental value to the self interested man.


Well, the way I see it is as follows: It's not a matter of what I think or believe that makes something intrinsically valuable - if that were the case, then one could claim that injustice has intrinsic worth or value.
mcdoodle December 22, 2017 at 21:29 #136304
Quoting Mitchell
To have intrinsic value is to be desirable in and of itself


To me value is just what we value, not what we desire. The conflation of the two happens, for instance, in some versions of theories of choice, often consumerist ones: as if preferences, as expressed through desires, could be equated to value. This is a pejorative view of value in my world.

For example, to me heroism has 'intrinsic value'. It's one of those words that's in our language and other languages as an expression of evaluative good. Like 'glory'. Or 'good'.
Shawn December 22, 2017 at 21:30 #136306
Reply to Sam26 Well, mcdoodle mentioned desire. So, I find it hard to imagine something I want without desire or instrumental value. I'm just playing devil's advocate.
Hanover December 22, 2017 at 21:32 #136307
Reply to Mitchell I'd offer a slightly different definition of "intrinsic value" as being that which has value in itself as opposed "to be desirable in and of itself. The use of "desirable" forces us to your example of hedonism because it suggests that achievement of desire is of value. Removing the desire element from the definition leaves us with more worthy results, like justice, morality, love, and things we'd have stand alone as valuable, even should no one happen to desire them.
Sam26 December 22, 2017 at 21:35 #136309
Quoting Susu
Honestly, when I think of intrinsic value I always ask, according to who or what? Because objectively speaking, reality has no intrinsic value, and by virtue of saying so is tantamount to a person holding superstitious believes positing that something has some sort of "meaning". The word intrinsic implies belonging to or innate to something. When we value something, we desire said thing. The question is who does it belong to, why and how?


Pleasure is something that is valued by humans, and there is an objectivity to the pleasure, so others can see it and participate in it. For example, people derive pleasure from music, we can objectively see it as we watch others, and we can experience it directly. Reality has intrinsic worth for us, at least much of it does - for example, watching a beautiful sunset. Without persons reality would have no intrinsic worth, because as you say, intrinsic value to whom?
Sam26 December 22, 2017 at 21:38 #136310
Reply to Posty McPostface Well, we can desire things that have both intrinsic value and extrinsic value. Much of what we desire has some value whether real or perceived.
Wheatley December 22, 2017 at 21:42 #136313
Quoting Mitchell
hedonism is the Value-Theory that asserts that Pleasure/enjoyment is the ONLY thing that has intrinsic value. Can you think of anything else that has intrinsic value?
Pain relief.

Mitchell December 22, 2017 at 21:44 #136315
Reply to mcdoodle
To me value is just what we value, not what we desire


I couldn't agree with you more, and in fact, I have argued so in print.

.Reply to Posty McPostface

I think that there is a wider and a narrower sense of 'desire'. The wider sense tells us nothing about WHAT motivates us, but only THAT we are so motivated. This sense, for which we also use the term "want", is the one which we use when it is claimed that everything we do intentionally, we must have wanted to do in some way, other wise we wouldn't have done it. See Ways of Desire.
Shawn December 22, 2017 at 21:47 #136319
Reply to Mitchell

But, we only value or appreciate things like knowledge, justice, morality, and other things mostly when we need them.

How do you explain that?
Mitchell December 22, 2017 at 21:48 #136321
Reply to Hanover
To me value is just what we value, not what we desire


Which brings us to a central question: "What is it to value something?"
Sam26 December 22, 2017 at 21:50 #136322
Reply to Mitchell I agree, our desires may align with the intrinsic worth of a thing, but desire is not what gives something value. If that were the case my desire to murder would have value.
Mitchell December 22, 2017 at 21:50 #136323
Reply to Posty McPostface
Perhaps what we need to do is to tie intrinsic value to needs not wants.
Hanover December 22, 2017 at 21:55 #136325
Quoting Mitchell
Which brings us to a central question: "What is it to value something?"


But why is that the central question, with "value" being a verb and not a noun. That is, why isn't the real question, what is value? To ask it as you have triggers my same objection as before, which is that if you ask what is it to value something, you simply ask the subjective question, making the most logical response a psychological one, as in "to value something is to hold it in high regard." It's likely I value things of no value and ignore things of value, thus ignoring the deeper question of what value is.
Shawn December 22, 2017 at 21:59 #136327
Reply to Mitchell

I agree; but, then what is the value of philosophy?
Hanover December 22, 2017 at 21:59 #136328
Quoting Mitchell
Perhaps what we need to do is to tie intrinsic value to needs not wants.


If it's tied to needs (or wants), I'd argue it's not intrinsic, but dependent. That is, if my needs are better fulfilled by cheating, does justice now lack intrinsic worth?
Mitchell December 22, 2017 at 22:00 #136329
Reply to Hanover
Because when we value something we are viewing it in a certain way, as having certain features. This might help determine whether there is anything that objectively fits that way of thinking. And that would be "a value".
Sam26 December 22, 2017 at 22:00 #136330
Reply to Mitchell But isn't something intrinsically valuable because it's not tied to anything else, like needs or desires. Needs though would be better connected than desires.
Mitchell December 22, 2017 at 22:00 #136331
Reply to Hanover Good point
Thorongil December 22, 2017 at 22:01 #136332
I don't think pleasure has much value at all, let alone intrinsic value.
Wheatley December 22, 2017 at 22:03 #136333
I think we need to make a distinction between value and we valuing something. Somethings are valuable because they are beneficial to a creature (such as health). On the other hand, we value things because it gives us pleasure (art for example). There's a difference between those two cases.
Mitchell December 22, 2017 at 22:07 #136336
Reply to Posty McPostface .
what is the value of philosophy?


Hmm. I think of Philosophy as having both intrinsic and extrinsic value. Extrinsic value because, if done right, it leads to clarity of though, removal of biases, and a gradual approach to truth. For me, doing philosophy also has intrinsic value--because it is so much fun!!
Hanover December 22, 2017 at 22:09 #136339
Reply to Mitchell Which was the impetus of my prior post. We can look at what we value, but we can't determine what has actual value from that because we seem to inherently know value even when we don't value it. I can throw my entire life into meaningless hedonism, valuing only the next fix of pleasure, but I would think that upon reflection (assuming I haven't destroyed my ability for reflection), I'd realize I am seeking those things that ought not be sought.

The road to recovery is often paved with reevaluating how one is living one's life and steering themselves in the direction of valuing the truly valuable. And I use "recovery" here to mean from anything meaningless, even if it's just from living a previously unexamined life.
Hanover December 22, 2017 at 22:12 #136341
Quoting Mitchell
For me, doing philosophy also has intrinsic value--because it is so much fun!!


Would it not if it weren't fun? I'd think its value exceeds that of a good massage, even should the good massage be more fun.
Shawn December 22, 2017 at 22:21 #136345
I just am puzzled that the economy has perverted value into utility.

And, if we all know what is intrinsically valuable why don't we show it in action and deed? Such as wanting a free education in the US or saving Social Security or increasing funding for education in general. In other words, why are our priorities misaligned with what is of intrinsic value?
Cavacava December 23, 2017 at 01:16 #136396
Reply to Sam26
The pleasure you get from wine or other things has intrinsic value. It's your experience regardless of where it come from.


Experiences are complex. The pleasure we take in a glass of wine, comes from its color, its vibrancy, its taste and its aftertaste, its terroir; all together the rhapsody of the sensations and memories, in which we may find pleasure. We don't experience raw, pure pleasures on their own and therefore we can't value them as such. We value experience as a whole, not its parts. Pleasure itself is never experienced on its own, it is always experienced in relation to something else, as a means to an end, but never as the end, therefore pleasure cannot be the good, since what is good always an end, which is always intrinsically valuable.


Hanover December 23, 2017 at 04:53 #136483
Reply to Posty McPostfaceSimilar goals does not dictate similar political views. We both may want cheap and high quality medical care (who wouldn't?), but we may still debate the best way to acheive that (e.g. higher taxes versus free enterprise solutions).
Shawn December 23, 2017 at 05:00 #136485
Reply to Hanover

And what happened to pragmatism? Surely there are better and wose ways but then there's the matter of how efficient they may be and picking which method is best on that basis.
Hanover December 23, 2017 at 05:05 #136487
Reply to Posty McPostface A diverse group will inevitably arrive at diverse solutions, and all will insist theirs is the most efficient.
Shawn December 23, 2017 at 05:05 #136489
Reply to Hanover

A two-party system is diverse?