Philosophical alienation
Building on a previous thread about melancholy, I was wondering if anyone has felt some sort of alienation from practicing or doing philosophy. Some might say that this is a personal bias speaking or that there are plenty of examples of philosophers being compassionate or finding their place in the world; but, I'm interested in what the other phil-lovers have to say.
I have been involved and interested in philosophy for almost fifteen years now. I started delving into philosophy a little earlier than that by reading Marcus Aurelius' Meditations and some Plato and then started reading and spending more time at the old PF and then took some phil classes at my local community college just for fun. I've posted numerous times about feeling alienated in the past and thought it was just all my bias about the world and my place in it. However, the feeling persists, although isn't as bothersome as it once was.
So, do any other members feel somewhat alienated by delving into philosophy? My alienation is mostly from just feeling somewhat different than other people who enjoy making money, spending time with friends drinking or just interacting, and such. I also think most people aren't interested in 'truth', 'wisdom', or positive human traits and virtues like honor, honesty, pride, and non-deceitfulness. It just seems to me that when a person is motivated by some things like 'truth' then their whole personality changes, and there's a focus on virtue and ethics. I see this lacking in a great deal in the world and our current education system. Maybe there's some lack of reward for being a good person apart from deriving joy out of it in isolation.
I have been involved and interested in philosophy for almost fifteen years now. I started delving into philosophy a little earlier than that by reading Marcus Aurelius' Meditations and some Plato and then started reading and spending more time at the old PF and then took some phil classes at my local community college just for fun. I've posted numerous times about feeling alienated in the past and thought it was just all my bias about the world and my place in it. However, the feeling persists, although isn't as bothersome as it once was.
So, do any other members feel somewhat alienated by delving into philosophy? My alienation is mostly from just feeling somewhat different than other people who enjoy making money, spending time with friends drinking or just interacting, and such. I also think most people aren't interested in 'truth', 'wisdom', or positive human traits and virtues like honor, honesty, pride, and non-deceitfulness. It just seems to me that when a person is motivated by some things like 'truth' then their whole personality changes, and there's a focus on virtue and ethics. I see this lacking in a great deal in the world and our current education system. Maybe there's some lack of reward for being a good person apart from deriving joy out of it in isolation.
Comments (116)
While I have spent so much time just trying to recover that horrible experience, I have recently had an epiphany that I am a culmination of choices that are leading to what I deeply want most, which has always been to fight injustice. I studied a masters in human rights law, I am working with disadvantaged women and children, I write on a blog, all leading to this created 'destiny' where it is my plan and dream to work in international human rights and write a novel. I applied for my first international post last week and I no longer have writers block.
There is a part of me that is telling myself to enjoy, have fun, relax because I feel like the time for serious is coming soon enough. This 'serious' is basically no longer dividing myself between two worlds, but quite simply being myself in this world and letting go of that desire which causes that alienating feeling. The more independent I become, the less desirious I am of others and the really odd thing is that by doing so I am attracting better people, company that I enjoy. To focus on yourself, on building virtue and a good character, you find wholeness and a peace that is good for you in so many ways.
I went ahead and bought some 'back to basics' books I relied on upon heavily in the past. The single most influential book that gave me sanity in face of adversity and trials, has to be Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. It's more of a 'man's' book if you get what I mean.
I figure, I learned some lessons and will return to my old stoic self. Being a stoic is comforting and helps me rise above this malaise I am professing in the OP. I don't want to end up hating being around people if that is not already something I feel as if what is becoming a reality. Though there is a small amount of some self-centered narcissism being professed here, I must add. So to speak, 'look at me' I don't care about what you care about, and I feel better about myself because of that.
Feeling as though through the years, that the only person I can really count on is my mother and closest family, everything else seems like a (excuse my language) fucking joke or facade, which really makes me (ferment?) inside.
I want to be good; but, if people don't reward people who are good, then what's the point other than some sense of elevation above other people? Dare I say, is being a good person also stems from a desire to feel superior to other people? Hard to say...
Anyway, glad things are working out for you in the best. I've given up on college. I want to see how low I can go before life forces something on me to do or maybe fall in love, haha. Now, I just sound pathetic. A philosopher's life I guess?
Epictetus, Enchiridion.
Quoting Posty McPostface
That is actually a great idea. The first time I was introduced to philosophy was when I was around 14 and I had a dodgy, second-hand The Last Days of Socrates that I read as I travelled on the train to the countryside. I just remember being blown away by some parts of it, as though it helped articulate pre-existing thoughts that I couldn't explain but it was already there. I may just do the same, reflect on how much things have changed since then. And yes, I get what you mean; honour, loyalty, things that have escaped contemporary versions of 'man'.
Quoting Posty McPostface
Learning from mistakes is a gratifying experience because it enables progress and hating people around you is really projecting a hatred for yourself and on the contrary your desire for others is the actually self-centered narcissism though it may not appear that way; the desire to be connected to people that do not live up to this expectation causes this hatred. It is taking a responsibility, really, and this 'want' is often virtuous, moral in nature, to improve and do better for the right reasons. It is like Emerson said, that moderate balance between the individual who refuses to conform but who is nevertheless concerned with and a part of society; to spend time discussing moral concerns of a social and political nature, before going home and thinking about how you can improve. It is that balance.
Quoting Posty McPostface
You will come to find the compassion when you take responsibility for yourself, to count only on yourself and you will see most people conform because they become absorbed by their environment and it is their environment that is fake and superficial; they conform because they too desire the same camaraderie. You can indulge in the anger, as though you are trying to wake them from their slumber and indeed when you think of vicious 'honour' killings, I hardly think having a conversation with them will inspire such change, but in the end it is a broader systemic problem that takes advantage of this innate weakness in humanity. When you take responsibility for yourself and find that independence, you inspire both antagonism and deep affection (I have anyway) where there are those that try their best to defend tooth and nail the idea that conforming is a must that you are an 'enemy' of this, or deep affection because they are aware that something is wrong and you epitomise the independence that they want themselves but fail to know how to apply it practically.
Quoting Posty McPostface
Be good for the Form itself, for the principle, the honour that Aurelius speaks so highly of because if your intention to do good is only because people like that or want that then it is not genuine but another attempt at pleasing others. Separate yourself from others and find the desire or will to improve in and for itself.
Quoting Posty McPostface
The pursuit of love is the greatest of all pursuits. It is pathetic and highly narcissistic if you choose to avoid real love, but the attempt or pursuit begins with friendship. Learn to be friends with others while finding that philosophical independence [which is to learn how to give love, to understand and feel empathy] but don't forget to live in the meantime. It is to be morally worthy, loving, and content but all with a genuine and conscious will.
Quoting Posty McPostface
I recently sang the Beatles' Let It Be when I went camping and I made a guy cry even though I don't have a great singing voice. I view the world exactly as the lyrics portray.
I'm still struggling to find a reason to participate in human society. I don't like the idea that we are to live to a certain expectation, School>College>University>Work>Retirement etc. Do you think I could survive if I chose to stop working tomorrow? I think not, as apparently it's becoming illegal (in places) to live off-grid. The everyday problems humanity encounter are by design of a corrupt system pedaled by a minority. How is it that ancient civilizations were able to determine things we have only recently discovered, yet they had it written on/in tablets and scrolls? This is but a fragment of problems, the issue is we are not asking the questing of how, how was it possible for them to know despite to official story of 'evolution and the ages'.
We're being deprived of knowledge and it makes me angry that I have to live among people who just accept the 'official stories'. I often want to just quit my job because of the things people say around me. They literally have no wisdom and can't think for themselves. People use concepts/sciences taught by evil to make misguided decisions/conclusions.
I don't know any 'acclaimed philosophers', it's never appealed to me that I should seek peace/consolation in others. Should you not live by your own compass and not someone else? All be it completely fine to do so as your freedom to choose.
It's becoming more a problem for me to the point I'm avoiding social confrontations to prevent talking about such topics. If I could take humans out of the equation my desire to never see or hear anything would lessen.
Reece
I started going to once a month Buddhist meetings around in my area. They're definitely good to be around with many other people who feel the same way or actually act in a manner consistent within an ethical framework, and boy Buddhism is quite a philosophy of life. Easy on paper, practice? Not so much.
Quoting TimeLine
I did like his friend, Henry David Thoreau, Walden. I liked B. F. Skinners Walden Two a lot more though, heh.
Quoting TimeLine
I have no desire to take responsibility for anything. I just accept things as they come along. To a point though, as I am no sage.
Quoting TimeLine
Have a laugh:
Quoting TimeLine
I think the Stoics got it right, along with their bedfellows the Cynics. I've always lived more of a Cynic life than a stoic one for the matter.
Thank you, a little overweight; but, doing fine.
Quoting Reece
It's mostly just a thing we just do and not rationalize over that much. I guess the easy answer is that we just conform to our past or present authoritarian structures and staus quo.
Quoting Reece
Hey, if it makes you feel better, I don't believe in the original 9/11 explanation as to three buildings falling down due to office fires, all in one day, and with the precedent being that it has never happened before or since 9/11. Strange day.
Quoting Reece
Yeah, I'm in the same boat. People to some degree disgust me nowadays. I'm not better than them though, and at least that realization helps me function and interact when necessary around them.
Best regards.
Quoting Posty McPostface
- I'm in dire need of help. I need to find a 'distraction', something to take my mind away from the system/stresses of everyday living. On my commute to work I often find myself hoping for someone to crash into me just to make the cycle of life more interesting :/
Quoting Posty McPostface
- This is just one case, there are thousands of lies, lies on lies. Not knowing the truth/purpose aggravates me and as a result makes me depressed.
Quoting Posty McPostface
- Yeah I even get angry inside at my family for the minor things they say/do. Have you ever thought you should stand by what you believe in, even if it means upsetting your own family? You are better in your own way. You determine your own right from wrong, that's how you deal with your conscience. I can't judge you and vice versa.
Reece
Interesting. I could build a similar story, but lately, I don't feel the need. It's pointless - the gods give, and the gods take away. All else is just story-making that doesn't change anything.
You survived - who cares what this revealed to you if anything? It wasn't in your control. To look back and say "oh I wasn't really truthful to myself then" - so what? It doesn't change anything. Your life still remains as it is. Your destiny isn't self-made, but given - by Fortune, both the good and the bad.
Yes I notice the same thing, sometimes. I can be very non-philosophical too though, although I don't prefer being that way.
Part of the reason for this is that we haven't found a way to earn $$ out of doing philosophy, so the time you spend philosophising is time in which you're not engaged with the economy, and hence you're isolated. Zizek wouldn't feel like we do for example. If we found a way to earn money and live off doing philosophy - without being philosophy professors obviously - then it wouldn't be such a big issue.
Yes, but I have in mind the mind of the alienated individual who freely chooses to be alienated and in some sense or manner despises the masses due to their own lack of edifying interest in philosophy. Marx probably stands out as the most alienated feeling philosopher of the whole bunch; but, was able to grasp the minds of millions, and still does to this day.
Although there were philosophers in the past that made a good living out of their trade, we're known as sophists rather than pure philosophers. Why is that?
Well, I think you're in the right place. I tend to this of these forums as a self-help guide/process. I'm still not halfway through my own therapy process.
In my capacity as the bringer of philosophical sweetness and light, I would say it has made me happier. I've never really been alienated, but I've been miserable. The things I do when I do philosophy are the same things I do when I'm not. Thinking is pretty much what I do. Philosophy requires better organization of my thoughts. I've noticed that doing it in public, like here, has made me better at expressing myself clearly. It has also made me more relaxed, peaceful. A lot of that comes from my time and place in life, but I give credit to the forum for some of it. Doing philosophy with others brings me out of myself.
The unexamined life might not be worth living, but the carefully examined life might be more troubled. One does not need to think, read, or do philosophy to live a long and successful life. Conventions, habits, routines, rules, desires, needs, and so forth will get one from the cradle to the grave just fine. Pausing to question whether the life one lives is good, can be the beginning of much trouble.
Some dig their way into alienation and others fall into it. Either way, it is a fairly common experience to feel cut off from the vitality that seems to flow through society, and through many individuals.
But alienation is surely not a desirable state. Even if the affairs of the world are a great waste of futility ("Vanity of vanities, all is vanities" it says in Ecclesiastes) it is not good to just stop in the middle of the wasteland. ("If you are walking through hell, keep moving.")
Philosophy--in one form or another--can, may, should, could provide a means to recommit, connect, affirm, engage to something. I don't know of a good antonym for "alienate". But if one can "de-alientate" it is worth doing.
This is the part that creates problems.
This is not why I study philosophy. I study philosophy in order to better understand life, and when I say study, I mean by actively participating in all aspects of life including politics, arts, sports, history, psychology, literature, science, health, etc. Personally I don't like drinking though I do go to bars sometimes to listen to music and drink some mineral water
Only during Ancient Greece, but that's only because they had a non-capitalist economy. What you did in Ancient Greece was fight, train for Olympics, go and have fun in the market, trade, go to cultural shows, festivities, etc. - economy wasn't very relevant.
Later philosophers had no problem making dough. Epictetus had a philosophy school - can't have a school without the dough. Seneca was richest man in Rome - and so on.
And now that we live in a capitalist economy, it is making money that has to bring us closer together. To be close, we need to make money together - we need to be actively engaged in the economy with each other. All of life today, apart from family life and downtime - is the economy.
As Uncle Karl said, "Under capitalism everything is reduced to the cash nexus."
Indeed, it's even pointless to fight it. Let's just restructure everything around it. Let's make money together, not alone.
Here's to the man who drinks dark Ale and goes to bed quite mellow;
Here's to the man who drinks dark Ale and goes to bed quite mellow;
He lives as he out to live, lives as he ought to live; he'll die a jolly old fellow.
ha ha ha
Here's to the man who drinks water pure and goes to bed quite sober;
Here's to the man who drinks water pure and goes to bed quite sober;
He'll fall as a leaf do fall, fall as a leaf do fall, he'll die before October.
ho ho ho
Three Jolly Coachmen
The thing that disturbs me most about this thread is the extent to which some of us feel contempt, anger toward those who don't share our values or follow our path. Everyday normal people live valuable lives. They love their children and maybe their spouse; work at jobs they like or maybe don't; have friends; walk their dogs; collect baseball cards; fish; read; .... Some are virtuous, some are not, most are some of the time and not others. Some are happy, some are miserable. You are no better than they are.
Yeah, BC, that'll cheer him up.
This is the most depressing thing I've read on this forum.
It's depressing because you're opposing it. If you stop opposing it, and just accept that our festival is the making of money, then you can join the party. What's the difference between making money and the Olympic games of the Greeks? Who cares if we gather around Olympic games, or profit making, or singing? So long as we gather together, it is enough.
It's depressing because I'm not opposing it, and because others like yourself openly embrace it.
...
Quoting Rich
Some would say your trying to find some deeper meaning to your life, or at the very least your not satisfied with them on face value. Though I understand that the art of living cannot be embraced on an online forum, that is some sort of substitute for a poor and broken mind.
To understand life is too become a better sailor. Too learn to become more skilled at navigation. To see more.
Those who limit their learning to drunken learning from books are limited to what a drunk can learn from books.
My interest in philosophy is not to be wiser, more virtuous, some sort of evangelist of Truth. I am simply here to learn, become a better navigator and express myself through creative thought and actions.
We all make choices as we wander through life.
Quoting praxis
Making money brings us closer together? In a sense, yes -- but only in a rather narrow, functional sense.
Were we yeomen in an Anglo Saxon village, 1000 AD, during a good year, working together would probably keep us, if not bring us, close. Sharing the labor of the land, sharing the joys of the meager festivals, sharing a bowl of soup and bread. Sure. Working together would bring us together. But that kind of life was obliterated by industrialism and capitalism centuries ago.
By our labor in the economy we make money, I hate to break it to you, honey, but engaging in economic activity with you isn't going to bring us together. Transactions are alienated interactions, for the most part. You may make--I may save--money in a transaction, but we aren't going to be buddies as a result.
Humans do interact economically. We have to. Unless I go catch them myself, I'll have to engage in economic exchange to get a can of sardines. There must be something better--more meaningful, more compelling, more enlightening, than making money.
I will not here recommend we all become cashless socialists in one great collective. Collectivized economy or capitalized economy is going to be pretty much the same thing. There has to be something beyond commerce, something beyond profit, something beyond meeting needs, something beyond the treadmill.
Family life and downtime? No, I think in this economic world, family life and downtime figure into the economy as much as buying that can of sardines.
No, we don't think you're arrogant. And we love you too.
Very sad, but very well written.
For a start, I am happy with one God. We have moved on rather substantially from the ancients and it seems somewhat contradictory that - what with Tyche or Fortuna - you seemingly appreciate the very "story-making" that you oppose. Secondly, it is articulating your own story, which is merely learning how to use reason and common sense, to apply yourself correctly. My life is the sum of a sequence of choices, there is no plan given to me where reason and rational thought is involved. Without the latter, I am non-existent.
I care what this revealed to me because I became conscious of how such terrible things occurred because I allowed it to and it gave me the capacity to visualise the temporal sequence of events that lead to that in order to learn to prevent that from occurring again. It gave me a sense of duty, taught me to honour virtue, and made me incredibly happy. I do not sit there and go "meh, its all Fortune" but I make it so because I exist.
Just a story though, doesn't change anything. You still almost died, you still suffered an accident, etc. etc. Suffering is not made better because you got something out of it.
Quoting TimeLine
It's not a story, it is true. The gods raise some up and destroy others - the cycle of history.
Quoting TimeLine
"the gods" are a metaphor for the guiding divinity.
Quoting TimeLine
I don't think so - they just occurred because they occurred :s
Quoting TimeLine
None of my experiences gave me anything except to understand that man is a straw dog, the puppet of the gods. That doesn't mean you shouldn't struggle towards the heights - just that reaching there is not in your hands.
Quoting oysteroid
No, only Lady Fortune can do that.
Quoting TimeLine
Yes. Luck, careful planning, laser-like focus. Meaning is not created, it is given.
So you need luck and careful planning? And, careful planning is... luck? So, how we interpret the fundamental nature of reality, of knowledge and of existence that we believe in is given by Lady Fortune?
Do you realise how crazy you sound?
That doesn't matter. Words are meaningless. Does reading my words - or any words for that matter - change one iota of your life? Not really. It's actions, not words, that change lives.
Quoting TimeLine
Absolutely. You have to do your best, but success isn't within your hands.
Quoting TimeLine
That is irrelevant. It won't put a dime in my pocket, get me to the moon, make me climb Everest, help me lift 30kg dumbbells at the gym, or anything else worth doing.
So, where does this "careful planning" come in when you are trying to do your best? You are clearly not articulating yourself correctly, considering that careful planning is reason and rational thought and not Lady Fortuna. How crazy you sound does matter, because it ameliorates your state of mind and that would render concerns for how your "careful planning" or "doing your best" would manifest itself. To say that your interpretations of the external world are irrelevant and yet somehow believe that you can climb Everest only because of luck fails to acknowledge the mutually compatible combination of determinism and exercising your free-will.
It is a thing called consciousness.
Good point.
Not really. Rational thought and careful planning is spending time doing nothing so that every once in awhile you get a good idea about what you should do - then you implement it. Most people can't stand 'wasting' time like this though - they get bored and quit.
Quoting TimeLine
No, just that thinking is irrelevant to actually climbing. It takes will, not thinking, to do that. Too much thinking paralyzes the will.
Why do you reify the execution of any activity? This seems arbitrary.
?
What "most people do" is not the point, it is distinguishing what "careful planning" is to you and if you say that reason and rational thought are pointless, careful planning is impossible. You are not articulating your adequately, on the contrary continuously escape from justifying your position and you can say, "well, who cares" but ultimately all that is is a blatant disregard for me as a person trying to have a conversation.
Okay, I guess make exalted. Fill in word for making something more important than it should be.
Well, I am trying to engage you in showing you that it's not words that are ultimately relevant. If you care about life - your life first and foremost - it's not words that matter.
Quoting TimeLine
Most people have executed without reading all those books. You think Mahatma Gandhi read all the philosophers? He did read some religious Scriptures and the like, but you've probably read more than him. You think Mother Theresa was an intellectual genius? What about Dorothy Day? etc.
Well, I was not trying to question why activity is more important than studying books or vice versa. My point was why does activity matter in the first place? Why does anything need to get done?
So, are you saying that after more than seven thousand posts and your considerable amount of hours that you have spent on here mean that you don't care about your life?
No, my posts are not helpful to me, obviously. They may be helpful to others, but not to me. Some other people's posts have been helpful to me, but they are rare and far between.
Since I work as self-employed and my work tools are the computer, spending time here is just... natural. lol.
Quoting schopenhauer1
Why does answering that question matter in the first place? :s
Again, you are not answering the problem at hand. You said that people who care about their life that words would not matter. Being on this philosophy forum is not natural "lol" as there are millions of places to visit, other forums to chat on. You are here because you want to be here. You can bullshit to yourself to try and justify your original position, but you are doing a poor job of it.
Sure, but people here can think better than elsewhere generally. There is help available in solving meta-philosophical issues - and on some ethical ones too. But not really in terms of metaphysics, etc.
Thanks for sharing, I think lots of younguns such as myself can take away a lot from your experience.
Quoting Posty McPostface
That feeling. I think I get that feeling because I'm jealous. I rationalize my bad behavior (to refuse someone a good behavior you know you could provide) by looking at how little other people work but still somehow obtain that warmth of the herd. With that in mind, I grow resentful at the ease with which they do something that I try so hard for. I'd say that many philosophers agree that true friendship, a union of the minds, is the rarest and most beautiful virtue to hold. Even if we would never find that friend in real life we do have people across the internet and across time in books with whom we might share some solace. And, I tell myself I'll find someone one day. Fortune does have a big stake here and that also justifies some of why I'm so patient for it, or is it complacency.
Agustino is going all Zen on us. Acting without acting. I think the fact that it aggravates you so much is just icing on the cake. Maybe that is the cake.
Such contempt. Condescension. Are you looking for someone who treats others as arrogantly as you do? You may not like them when you find them. Then again, you may. I have always been attracted to single-minded, self-absorbed people. I want to put my arms around them and say "There, there. Everything will be ok." On the other hand, it's not a good way to pick up chicks. Or guys.
If one were to participate in some evil-doing I hope they would at least like to understand why they feel that way and maybe even make it okay for themselves sometimes. Otherwise, Idk man are people merely perfect simulations that only do just actions and only I perceive them as unjust? Or wait, much worse, some people are merely ignorant and not very thoughtful of their actions or even the motivations behind them.
Thanks for sharing that poignant personal experience. Contrary to you, my isolation has manifested itself in the form of a deep mood called 'depression'. You don't seem like the depressed guy due to your feeling of alienation and isolation. However, the only thing in my time-space (being 27 years old on disability) that I can relate to is going back to college. I have enormous difficulty learning the material because my head will raise two more questions to one seeking an answer to, that need answering. I also know from a close friend that without a degree in engineering or computer science, it doesn't really matter where you graduate from to get a decent job.
Anyway, what I'm getting at is that your sort of stuck in front of the anglerfish light that are values you've been raised with or observed and are still lured by it. I'd say detach yourself from those luring values that other's are lured to (like sheep), and pursue in great esteem and accept your life for what it is, unique, intelligent, and sensitive. There are other ways to contribute to society.
I mean, I live with my mother and don't see anything else in the world (depressingly) as of more value than being together with her and supporting her. We're both poor; but, are happy in our poverty. Sure, the ideas come flooding back to go to college, stay there as long as possible, and possibly prosper; but, I'm a guy that is easily entertained by philosophy and the sorts, so those ideals are receding into the past, and hopefully more-so in the future.
What I'm getting at, is that there has been a neurotic perversion of the self-being instilled in the new generation of people since, oh, the 50's-60's. Neoliberalism is still going strong and the only thing keeping it going is the same people obsessing over themselves and their relative position in the socio-economic ladder.
I've embraced my alienation from other people and society. Don't really feel much regret or anger over it. It's just who I am, and if I am what I am, then that's all that I 'yam.
I'm not going to address your whole post because there are limitations to what can be said in words. However, I can say that none of this bothers me from any POV be it an evolutionary biological one or not. I don't believe that one's nature ought or even can dictate the nurture aspect of living.
Not to sound presumptuous; but, I feel as though my philosophy of life, which has become more cynical rather than stoical trumps what you have said, and that's why I don't really think badly of my life or at least I don't ruminate over what others think of me and such. I live happily with my mom, as many others do nowadays because of or as a result of my economics and disabled status. It's not bothersome to me anymore as I mentioned in my first post. I guess I should really stop mentioning that I'm 27 and live with my mom anymore; because that just spurs a picture of some stereotype person or some such matter.
But, I do have to say that you are deeply imbued with what others would think about your situation or what is socially right to do. As a sort of Cynic, I find it amusing that anyone would be so concerned with that. To each his own, I guess.
Oh, and I have read Victor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. It's a fascinating book that at its core (in my view) professes a stoic attitude towards whatever predicament one find themselves in life and making the best out of it.
Well, the simplest and most elegant example I can provide to you is of the Cynics. They disregarded almost off of the things you have mentioned in your post.
Quoting oysteroid
Well, that's just the biological me that I have to deal with, no other way to combat it, be it accepting or ignoring or forgetting, and etc.
Quoting oysteroid
What I'm saying is that I've been depressed or isolated for so long that I've built some sense of a 'shell' or tolerance to the feeling. I used to indulge in stimulant drugs to fill that void. Nowadays I just take my meds, contemplate philosophy, and that pretty much leaves me satisfied with my condition.
Quoting oysteroid
Yeah, there are degrees of freedom in anything, as well as being free from the typical negative and positive emotions. Cultivating a healthy balance is ideal, but some (Cynics again) take a more radical stance and throw away it all, and are left with a sense of serene comfort in their nullification of wants and desires of material goods.
Quoting oysteroid
I think that's an undue burden on any school of thought. Even though Buddhism comes close, there are still emotions that they encourage one to cultivate and manifest in behavior. Cynicism goes straight to the heart of the issue, and because of that are disregarded as fringe philosophers, in my opinion.
Quoting oysteroid
The thing is that we might both be wrong, and I'm perfectly fine with being wrong in isolation if that's the case. Let me put this another way. I have adapted to the prospect of being on disability and living with mom. It doesn't bother me that much anymore. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd spend it on the mortgage on the home I live in and put the rest into an index fund and derive benefits from the dividends. One can dream, though.
Quoting oysteroid
Prior to my fascination with Stoicism and Cynicism, I was impressed by the American transcendentalists. And, the name is well deserved, that is 'transcendentalism'. You can find some very impressive characters in that school of thought, even though this was due to their sheer intellect at rationalizing their behavior in contrast with what society demanded of them. I guess, call it rugged individualism. At some point in my life, I felt that I needed to integrate more with society and tried joining the military. I couldn't handle the lack of control in the newly command style of life found in the military. Biologically, I also had issues that prevented me from functioning in the new environment. So, I'm saying that I've tried, and everything has led up to this point in my life, and I'm jolly fine with it. I wouldn't be so jolly had I not tried integrating (military, college, minimum wage job) etc.
Quoting oysteroid
Oh, they have existed, philosophy is abound with such unique and peculiar individuals.
Quoting oysteroid
Well, what I took away from his book, is that people always have, irrespective of what circumstances they are in, a choice to decide what state of mind they want to be in. Yes, goals, purpose, the future, and so on, all facilitate the meaning of that choice. Some people, claim it's an existential work of art; but, I felt that Frankl meant it to be read in a Stoical manner. That's my opinion at least. [Edit], I'm actually quoting from the book I have in my hands right now:
Powerful, stuff. I know I've somewhat failed on most of what he recommends one doing. It's not a type of therapy for the masses, that's for sure.
I thought at first this crap was coming from you. I was wondering - what happened? I remember you were quite an intelligent fellow at old PF, I often read your posts with joy. Then I saw where the stink was coming from:
Quoting oysteroid
No wonder! You've been drinking the kool-aid of that scam artist Jordan Peterson :-} He's loving it - he's making $70K+ PER MONTH - in just a little bit, he will be a millionaire - his family will be sorted for life. You, on the other hand, will still be a poor lonely 40-year-old - cause Peterson only makes himself richer, by selling you afterthoughts and shadows.
Quoting oysteroid
That's false. People are very different, there's no "hardwiring". Maybe YOU are hardwired, but not everyone is.
Quoting oysteroid
>:O - living on disability is getting income from the government. That's good in my books. Any income you can gain for free, why not?
As for living with your mother, what's the problem with that? :s Don't you see what a man-child you have made yourself into? Don't you see how you are duped? A little medal, a little "status" is all it takes to have you on your knees. What did Napoleon say?
"A soldier will fight long and hard for a little bit of ribbon"
That's how people are controlled. If you cannot stand having the whole world laugh at you, how are you greater than them? Didn't even the great Chinese general Huan Xin crawl between the knees of two vagabonds?! Who cares what the world thinks, when you control the real pillars of strength? Appearances are irrelevant.
Because let me tell you the truth. Status is but a shadow of the real things that drive this world. There are four important things in the world. First, it is your God. Then it is your family. Then it is money. And lastly, it is brute strength (whether physical or the military). Currently, they are in that order of importance. God and family will always remain in the first two places, but brute strength and money can change places, depending on your society.
Belief and servitude to God, loyalty to your family, money and brute strength. That's how a man gains a good life.
Now let's think about it. Why move out from your mother's place? To gain the world's respect? What good will that do you, if you lack the four pillars of success? It is a shadow - that respect will vanish as soon as it is given, since it is not based on anything lasting, on anything that can compel it. An accident, or a disease, will be sufficient to lose that respect. You will always be a servant to the world that way, you will never be free. I still live with my mother. Why would I move out, to pay rent to another person? Isn't it more intelligent to save that money I'd pay for rent instead, get a mortgage, buy a property, and rent it out? Then it pays for itself, while I live with my mom. Then when my parents die, and the property has paid for itself, I will have 2 properties. I can leverage one, to gain control over another. Soon, that boy you were laughing at will be a landlord, earning more than needed from the rent of 2 properties. My family will then have the means to support itself, and even grow its income. You on the other hand will have chased after the wind of respect, and be left with nothing in the end but a pile of debt that still hasn't paid for itself. In the long run, I will compel the world's respect, and you won't. And all because I wasn't scared to have the world laugh at me, and chased what was important - that which is the real object that causes the shadow of respect. Going against the grain is the only way you'll ever make it in this world.
Look at Obama. He laughed at Trump. What good did it do him? He only humiliated himself.
Laughing does nothing. Insulting does nothing. They change literarily zero. Why do I care if the whole world laughs at me, so long as I control the army? They can laugh, but everyone knows where the real power is. The true philosopher does not grasp after the shadows on the wall of the cave - but after that which causes the shadows.
If I have done my duty to God, why do I care what the world thinks? Shall I not have great reward in Heaven?
One would think those on a Philosophy forum wouldn't be so attacking. He gave you his opinion. Without any resentment or anger towards you or anybody. And here you are spitting your ideas unto him as if he has done you wrong; as if it would be right to spit at him and to WANT to cause suffering and distress within a person for any reason. It's like, even on a philosophy forum, people care about what others think. Oh noe. It's like your proving Oysteroid right? Oh woe.
Quoting oysteroid
Quoting oysteroid
Looks like we found a mutant. Spoiler alert: They're everywhere.
If I might drag you out of the cave for a brief glimpse I’ll point out that God is pretty high status.
I'm not attacking at all. I know Oysteroid from the old PF, and he's a good guy. I was more aggressive than normal because this isn't the first time I see this, and he's trying to influence others in a way that I think is negative. That's a problem, especially since this isn't the first post in this thread in which he's doing it. So the first time I let it slide largely, but now I decided to intervene.
I don't know what happened to Oysteroid, but he's different in this new perspective that he displays now compared to how he was at old PF. The reason why I got angry at him is because he's just humiliating himself, he's calling it quits to his own life philosophy because he listened to Peterson, and he's probably having a hard time right now, or whatever. He shouldn't quit, declare his life as sucky, and come around whining and advising people to take the road that Western culture basically tells them to take anyway.
And notice I didn't disagree with Oysteroid on this:
Quoting oysteroid
But I do severely disagree with the road he (and Western culture) recommends to take in order to achieve that. I think quite the contrary, the road Western culture recommends will leave you in the ditch.
I am (largely) unaffected by what others think about me (I have developed, and am trying to develop, as much as possible, a thick skin), but I can't say I don't desire admiration, being valued, and the like. It's more like a question of what I'm willing to pay for admiration, being valued, etc. and what I'm not willing to pay. I don't prostitute myself for admiration, being valued, etc.
Agustino, it seems to me that you've misunderstood some things and made some assumptions. I guess I need to make my position more clear. And no, I am not big Jordan Peterson devotee. I am not even familiar with most of what he has said. I just ran into that video on depression the other day by chance and agreed with some of what he happened to say in that one. Aside from that, all I know of him is his panic over SJWs that I've encountered in a podcast or two. Not my thing, really.
Regarding the Cynics, the Stoics, Socrates, Buddha, Jesus, Pythagoras, Krishna, and most other personalities that appear in very old texts, reports of their lives, actions, and words are not very reliable and tend to be full of exaggeration, fabrication, and downright deification. It was common back then for later writers to present their words as those of a dead sage. In the case of Socrates/Plato, half of what Socrates supposedly said was Plato putting words in his mouth. We don't know what these people were really like or how their ideas worked for them in actual practice. Hell, Pythagoras was said to have a golden thigh and to bilocate! Do you believe that? I'd say that reports of people completely free of the concerns I am talking about are likely equally unreliable.
Besides, didn't most of these people have a social life? And didn't they enjoy some esteem? A sense of importance? And so on? We don't hear from those who truly abandoned society and can only guess at their mental state.
Was Diogenes perfectly content in the lifestyle he chose? How do you know? I don't get the impression of a man at peace when I read about him.
Show me a real, live, happy person free of such concern due to the adoption of such ideas.
Also, these people felt they were breaking ground and found meaning in what they were doing, no? And they were engaged, trying to affect the world. They didn't withdraw and hide in their rooms!
Let's consider the actions of Diogenes, the public masturbation and pissing on people, for instance. What was that all about? Freedom from opinion? Really? He was obviously making a show of his rebellion against their norms! A rebel isn't free of what he rebels against. A conformist's behavior, thought, and appearance are a direct function of the norms of society, or of public opinion. An anti-conformist's (not a nonconformist's), or a rebel's, is still a function of public opinion, only the inverse, and so such a person is still a slave to what others think. A true nonconformist's ways would be independent of society and probably not terribly remarkable or shocking, maybe even agreeing with society in most ways, as such a person might see the sense in some of the things normal in society, language conventions for example, or stopping at red lights, or pooping in toilets. Such a person would be indifferent to what people think, not rebelling against it, not violating taboos for the sake of violating taboos. Do you think a punk rocker in the 80s in public with a pink mohawk was free of concern for the opinions of those who sneered at his appearance? Hardly. Really, such behavior is kind of juvenile, if you ask me.
I would suggest that Diogenes was probably an attention-hound! He obviously got a lot of it! He was like the shock-rocker of his day. He was a celebrity! He probably reveled in it! He even got the attention of Alexander the Great! He was about as free from opinion as Marilyn Manson!
Yes, and here again goes your whole search for meaning... aren't you tired of all this searching for meaning and such? You've searched for it your whole life, but meaning is right there, under your nose, in your present circumstances. You've built for yourself an entire mental prison, which you now confuse for reality. Aren't you tired of using others - in this case Posty - as your tools, to make you feel meaningful and useful? Why do you need others? Meaning comes from the inside, not from the outside. You actually hurt others in this way. You don't have to give Posty your valuable experience - he doesn't need it. He needs to be free to make his own decisions, live his own life.
Quoting oysteroid
>:O Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not laughing at you, but this just sounds hilarious! You may be older and more experienced, that has nothing to do with being right though. I brush elbows in my work with people 2 or even 3 times my age - their "experience" and "age" doesn't intimidate me anymore (though it used to). They don't know more than I do, and neither do I know more than they do for that matter - we both have to learn from each other. Stop putting yourself on to the high position of teacher, who shares from his infinite suffering to help us poor mortals and unexperienced idiots live better lives, while you can feel meaningful. It's not nice, and it's not going to be productive.
Part of becoming an adult involves realising that others (mom, father, boss, etc.) don't actually know more than you do - they're just as blind and ignorant as you, so you have to trust your own judgement, cause you ain't going to find a better one anyway.
Quoting oysteroid
Well, I first left home at 18 when I went to University and I didn't live with my parents anymore. I've only gone back to living with my parents long after, when I finally left the UK. I can't say I "flowered" etc. any differently. What's the big deal? Same thing really, apart from obviously that I can't bring someone (friends, don't think anything bad) into my parents' home easily, the way I could when I lived in UK. So really, no big difference honestly.
My cousin lived with his mom till he was darn 31. Now he's married and doing mighty well. So what's the big deal? :s You're living in a mental prison of your own making. Your anxiety is creating false threats and obstacles that don't even exist. Stop searching for meaning and BS, and find a way to deal with anxiety and depression. They sound like they are your real problems. Not lack of meaning, etc.
Quoting oysteroid
Yes, it could, but you'll never find out until you try it. Having tried and failed is better than not even trying.
Quoting oysteroid
What's the big deal about being a virgin?! Seems like you cling to this same 15-year-old mentality. What's the big deal? You're a virgin, so what? You're not in school anymore, nobody actually cares. To realise how silly this is, what do you think my girlfriend would have been like in high school if I told her, wait a second, I'm a virgin, I guess now you need to initiate me before we go further :s ...
Virginity is only a problem in your mind. You think being virgin makes you different. You think you need to have "experience" with regards to sex to be good at it. Etc. All false. If you can control your feelings, including fear, anxiety, etc. then experience or no experience, it doesn't matter. You're a man - the idea that you'd ask a girl to 'initiate' you, even if she happened to be 50 while you're 20 is absurd. Lunacy - the exact opposite of what women are looking for anyway.
Quoting oysteroid
So, how do you think I started working as self-employed? You think I called local companies up, being like "Umm, never built a website before, but I'm sure I can do a great job for you!"? Of course not. If I had done that, I would never have gotten even a single client. How do you think I can work with people 2-3 times my age? How can I sometimes compete against people with 100x times my experience? Experience is bunk. Hillary Clinton has experience, but as Trump said, it's bad experience. Just cause someone has more experience than you, it doesn't mean they're smarter or better.
Quoting oysteroid
About the income, I obviously agree. Though I disagree that you're still a child. The only reason you're still a child is cause you keep behaving like a child, instead of dropping that, and just acting like a man. You already are a man - you don't need to become one. It's not such a big deal that you never had a girlfriend, or that you're a virgin... really. Why do you make such a fuss about it? You think an animal in the forest, if for one reason or another, it didn't have the chance to have sex until it was the equivalent of 50 year old in human age, you think that animal would be frustrated and reluctant to have sex when he sees a female? :s All you have done is constructed a mental prison for yourself. Your problem isn't that you're a virgin, you lack experience, yadda yadda - your problem is that you're obsessed about your virginity, lack of experience, yadda yadda, such that they become stumbling blocks in your journey to find your happiness.
The same with the 25-year-old girl - how do you know the relationship will not work if you don't try it? She has a boyfriend, so I get why you don't, but I'm talking about your attitude here. You need to be more optimistic.
(and by the way, romantic experiences are most likely neither as amazing as you think they are, nor as bad as some people say they are - in other words, I don't actually think you'd feel a lot better now if you were married and with kids. Sure, it's a way to deceive yourself, that's how desire, psychoanalytically, functions. What you lack, that's what it wants most. But that doesn't mean it would make you fulfilled. Becoming a grown up means, to one extent or another, realising the vanity of desire. There is a reason why people generally return to the same baseline level of happiness - if they are miserable people, they generally keep being miserable, and if they are of a sunny disposition, they keep being of a sunny disposition, usually regardless of what outer circumstances are like).
Yes, that all may be true; but, I have adjusted to my current state of affairs. Contrary to what you are saying, instead of fighting with my current life, I try and live it without regrets. Mind you, I made a conscious decision some ten years back that I won't regret choosing a life of celibacy or in social isolation. There really is no imperative, for me, to indulge in a vivid social life or one full of romantic relationships and sex.
Quoting oysteroid
Living with mom really isn't an issue here. I don't understand how it can even be an issue apart from some sense of extremely low self-esteem and thus rationalizations to the matter.
Quoting oysteroid
Please understand, I don't intend to live with my mother for the rest of my life. I have two options ahead of me. One is to work with a friend on building an online supplement store, and the other is to go back to college to complete and further pursue a degree in economics. I figure the degree in economics would be the best long-term option; but, I want to first try and see if I can make a living without any degree at all. In some sense, taking baby steps until I feel confident that I can either live without a degree and reduce the obsessive obsession of mind with completing college or realize eventually, that it's the best option if I can't make a decent living without a degree.
Quoting oysteroid
Your life seems full of regrets, and you don't pad yourself on the back for being a good person and looking after your mom. That's not something I understand fully. Perhaps, we are quite diametrically opposed individuals. As an artist, you value things that I don't. My only creative or artistic expressions manifest in doing philosophy. Furthermore, I have a rather difficult issue that I have to treat (somewhat similar to your Cushings disease). My issue is schizophrenia. Whether I like it or not it's a cross I will bear for the rest of my life. It's a burden; but, not untreatable.
Let me emphasize, that I also lived in Europe for almost a decade, and haven't encountered the same resistance to living with your parents as in the States. I find the level of embracing individuality, as nearing neurotic levels in the States as opposed to happily living with your parents in Europe without nowhere near the amount of regret as in the US. I guess, the European way of life in some regards is more economical, as many people end up in great debt and burdened by new responsibilities they can't handle when living unprepared on their own. The amount of credit one can obtain to support that lifestyle is absurd, in the US. It can also explain why Europeans on average have a higher rate of educated individuals than the US, because they don't resent living with their parents and have a guardian angel looking after their welfare be it the State or their parents.
In the real world we see tons of people follow the western culture path and, on the surface at least, they're happy. We read a few dozen philosophers follow personal heroism and, on the surface at least, they too profess happiness. I guess I experience a strong disconnect between those two apparent truths. Usually, the philosophers would never admit they're wrong so I guess I found it refreshing to find a philosopher in some respects that actually promoted the cultural heroism vibe (not that I even agree with western culture).
There are some obvious advantages to picking this over that. Even if no one picks this over that; it'd be smart to know the differences. And vice versa no matter what side your on. Feeling offended that others might be getting swayed by a wolf in sheep's clothing doesn't give you the right to scapegoat the sheep you thought was evil. Turned out the sheep was sheep, and you were the wolf. This scenario would suck. So it'd be wise to at least consider the scenario in which the sheep is no wolf, and to simply watch carefully. No dead sheep and you still resolve the situation.
Quoting Agustino
Quoting Agustino
I fail to see how we could accept the vanity of desire yet at the same time actually try to court a partner which would be to desire quite a lot. But I do get what your saying in both cases and agree with both. I agree in a very big way that meaning comes from within, I am still on this side of the scale rather than that side. But, the killer in this argument is that if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it did a tree fall? So, we must have some sort of impact on our environment and thus derive meaning from our outside actions not just from what we do with ourselves. Could I pick your brain a little as to the specific actions or experiences or deeds or emotions within or outside of yourself that give your life meaning?
Most of our human lives we live in seclusion of being quite in school, so when some breaks from the norm they may feel alienated if they do not get the response they were looking for.
Where's the fake world? :s I hate this BS construct of a "real world". Everything is "real world".
Quoting Frank Barroso
Given that 50% of marriages end up in divorce, you should reconsider that. Oysteroid paints the picture from the vantage point of someone who seems to have made what he doesn't have as the ultimate ideal, without even realising the pitfalls. It does often happen that desire, when not allowed to be satisfied, erects the impossible goal into the best thing, and the one and only thing that can make life worth living. Oyster is saying nothing new - we know this from patients under psychoanalysis for the past 100 years or so. And we also know that if they do fulfil that desire in the end, they will feel worse than ever, the way Oyster felt after finishing the mountain climb. Desire does not lead to fulfilment, it's a blind alley.
Quoting Frank Barroso
Yeah, and what if it's the other way around? Isn't that a good scenario? That's why you have to use your judgement.
Quoting Frank Barroso
So you fail to see how we could accept them, but you do agree with both of them? :s
Quoting Frank Barroso
Well God gives me meaning, and other than that my family and my work. But I don't think there's anything you need to do to live a meaningful life. You could live a meaningful life never leaving your room, or sitting in a cave in meditation & prayer your whole life. That too is possible.
In the case of a bank robbery you get inside and immediately with your super-human level of perception and objectivity you suspect this man is about to rob the bank. IRL, yes there is a difference between sitting on my chair telling you a story than being IRL stopping a bank robbery. For here with the anonymity of the internet there are no repercussions for undue actions of harassment. IRL you would not have pointed out that wolf in sheep's clothing for fear of being wrong; the gravity of that situation IRL would have directly caused your actions to be quite different from how they were here on this forum.
Quoting Agustino
I agree with both of them to certain extents as is with many things. I was pointing out the impossibility of having these two things be perfectly in conjunction with each other at their extremes. For how can we recognize it is futile to desire and to also desire a most rare gift as another person.
Quoting Agustino
You seem to derive meaning from many things outside of yourself; yet you preach a meaningful life even through inactivity. Could you explain how someone could do that?
Well, the most important source of meaning is God, and God is both inside and outside.
Quoting Frank Barroso
Depends on what you consider inactivity. Is a monk sitting his whole life in a cave in meditation and prayer inactive?
No, not really. Your concept of God was given to you by your culture. If, for example, you were raised feral, you would have no such concept, or your concept of God might be furry, or otherwise something quite different.
I largely sympathize, but philosophy has "cured" me of thinking of myself as one the good guys. I mean that I see a gap between the "knowledge hero" and the good guy. I'm pretty liberal, for instance, but I think I annoy or scare off my liberal peers by always trying to see the other side and by insisting on the "monster" in each of us. I am interested in truth, but seeking the truth about truth itself problematizes this interest. Is the truth not also about superiority? A nice seat on the mountain? But who says its bad to want a seat on the mountain if not someone seeking a seat on the mountain.
This game of self-description in which one always comes out on top is what especially fascinates me. So I have to argue a little bit with your suggestion that most aren't interested in truth, virtue, wisdom. Indeed, I think we are all quite interested. We just have different basic notions of these things. For some not thinking too much is itself wisdom. You and me probably seem sickly to some in our constant readiness to analyze and demystify. They're not wrong. There's a violence in critical thought, a peeling of scabs, a trespass. If philosophy at its most revolutionary is abnormal discourse, then it is also thoughtcrime that only every once in a while becomes the new law. I think Schop had it right. Irritability, aggression. That's largely what philosophers are made of.
But I do feel a certain alienation. On the other hand this is also transcendence. People can be boring where a diffuse and manageable sexual desire (or lifesytle-sustaining business) is not involved. Smalltalk and chitchat. It's content-poor. There's not enough for the mind to chew on. (Note the aggression in this chewing, I say, as I reach for a piece of nicotine gum). There is also the ocean of cliche that the philosophy-exposed always-thinking person recognizes as such. On the bright side, a well told story has never lost its charm for me.
Why are we going to get buddies based on producing food in the ground together (the toil of the land), and not also by producing money in a money-tree where the dough naturally grows? :-$ Why does the object that we work around ultimately matter with regards to human connections?
Because 0.1% own what 90% make through their toil. But, that's taboo to talk about, right?
Right, but I don't think that the 90% really would want to make the sacrifices required to make money. Entrepreneurship isn't easy, you work all day pretty much. Most people will not sacrifice their social lives for example, in order to devote that time to business. So, a priori, I wouldn't expect a lot of people to gather together to make dough.
Yes, to some extent. Though you're really hyping up the argument by a stretch, methinks.
Right, so then you agree that a substantial part of the population (i) doesn't want to own a (or more) businesses, and (ii) they wouldn't be capable to run them. So no wonder that they wouldn't form friendships around it.
But I'm talking about the segment of the population that would (i) want to own a business, and (ii) have the discipline and knowledge required to run it. Why can't they form friendships around it, the way two dancers can form a friendship around their practice?
That's just a little bedtime story you tell yourself before going bye byes.
That Agustino's concept of God is derived from culture? That would put me to sleep, sure. Actually, I woke this morning at around 3 am by some bad dreams and couldn't get back to sleep. My stress level has been generally higher lately and a disturbing visit to the vet's office yesterday (my dog's basically in palliative care now) didn't help. After trying for an hour I put on a hypnosis tape for sleep. Worked like a charm, so that's how I went bye byes last night. Some English dude telling me to relax, that I was calm and peaceful, etc.
On a deeper level, I find meaning and relief from existential anxiety in the concept of emptiness. A cultural gift not unlike that of Agustino's God. There's no real narrative to emptiness however, which is very much unlike most God stories.
Do you have a favorite bedtime story?
Sorry to hear about your dog.
Quoting praxis
That used to happen to me sometimes. A nasty feeling. But there's nothing to do to escape that feeling, just waiting. Trying to do something to escape it makes it worse.
Quoting praxis
Emptiness means that even the things you care about are empty though. That doesn't sound very peaceful.
Quoting praxis
All concepts are linguistically mediated and therefore derived from culture, just like language. However that which the concepts point to, that isn't derived from culture.
I've been meaning to respond, but have been rather busy with some family matters. And there is so much that I feel needs to be examined/said in response to what has been said that I feel a bit overwhelmed with the prospect of responding adequately. I'll see if I can manage a decent response. Or maybe not. We'll see. Just thinking about it makes me feel tired! ;)
One thing I will say now is that since you expressed such disdain for Jordan Peterson, I've watched some more of his videos to see what he has to say. I have mixed feelings about his work. What is it about what he says that you have such a problem with? Just curious.
A few things:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/118055
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/118644
And the continued conversation there.
That's an example. Basically, I really doubt his so-called expertise. His expertise and advice may be good for the mediocre, but it will keep them mediocre, it will certainly not make them any better.
And he found an audience - teenagers and frustrated developed-world young men - who listen to his advice (which is the same advice as that of their parents most often) just because he dresses it differently. And he makes a killing doing this - he's making $70K/month and growing.
Basically lots of talk, little results from him (except for himself, he is getting quite good results financially for himself).
Why not? Is there an alternative?
Why would it be peaceful in the first place?
Quoting praxis
I don't really understand the question. What would it mean for there to be an alternative in this case?
The Buddhist notion? There are several versions of Sunyata even there, so please provide more detail. But yes, I am very familiar with the Buddhist notion, though I do have a particular interpretation of it.
In Buddhist teachings the Dharma? Nirvana? Buddha-nature?
I don't believe those concepts exist independently, personally.
And do you use emptiness to mean simply impermanent?
Can you back this up with some doctrinal reference or anything?
Samyutta Nikaya 3.196 discusses:
Digha Nikaya 2.100:
"Atman (the soul) is the only refuge, is the light within”
Majjhima Nikaya 1.341:
"The Soul has become like unto Brahma"
Arguably the most detailed on this topic is the Mahaparanirvana Sutta:
Buddhism in its traditional versions does not negate that there is an unchanging reality - which is Nirvana, Dhamma, Buddha. The Dhamma cannot be impermanent - that would be the height of folly, for then enlightenment could not be attained by following the Dhamma.
The only thing Buddhism does is negate that the 5 skhandas are Self. Indeed, the 5 skhandas are anatta, empty of self.
Western Buddhism on the other hand :D ... >:O
:-d
Doesn't deny that Nirvana is permanent, basically?
I'm asking him to provide a doctrinal reference for a claim that a condition applies to something where, according to the mythology, conditions don't apply.
Yes, it doesn't not only not deny it, it affirms that Nirvana is permanent. A good book is:
Some Sayings of the Buddha by F.L Woodward
It doesn't have such a Western bias as other introductory books.
Quoting praxis
The unconditioned reality cannot be impermanent. Impermanence is conditioning by the 5 skhandas and interdependent origination.
This is getting a bit tedious. No conditions, including the condition of (im)permanence, apply to that which is unconditioned, right?
Can you expand on this? It doesn't make sense by itself.
Impermanent means depending on something else for your existence - ie being conditioned by that something else. Your body is impermanent because it depends on a certain physical arrangement of atoms for its existence. It is conditioned. If it were unconditioned, it wouldn't be impermanent. So to say that permanence is a conditioning is BS - it's not understanding what to be permanent means, ie not to depend on something else for existence.
It’s a state or quality. There are online dictionaries you know, if you don’t happen to have one laying about handy.
It’s dependent on other concepts (as well as everything the concepts depend on to exist), most pertinently impermanence.