Does karma exist? Is it advantageous to belive in karma or pretend that it exists?
Im a nihilist, if I could get away with anything, their is literally nothing I would not do.
But I'm very curious and fascinated about karma. Is there any research on the existence of karma, but more importantly how the attitude of believing in karma effects someones success?
But I'm very curious and fascinated about karma. Is there any research on the existence of karma, but more importantly how the attitude of believing in karma effects someones success?
Comments (37)
Hindus have long believed in karma in the sense that ethically correct actions bring about appropriate results, even in future lives. This is the concept of 'karmic merit' or punya, The Buddha adapted the concept but modified it, saying that karma wasn't simply the result of correctly-performed rituals, but in fact was the consequence of *any* intentional action - good, bad, or neutral. This connection between intent and action was a key development in the idea of karma and is still understood as a fundamental ethical principle in Buddhism.
However, karma is often misrepresented in support of fatalism to assign blame - 'it's their karma' - or even to blame myself - 'it must be my karma'. My view is that the only benefit of belief in karma is that if it is understood to guide action, i.e. what will the consequences of this action be? If it is used to assign blame or rationalise guilt, then it easily morphs into fatalism and/or superstition. But if understood correctly, I'm sure it is a profound moral principle.
As for research - what would constitute a research program? Have a look at this article concerning research into children who remember their past lives. There appears to be evidence in such cases of physical injuries in one life being transmitted in the form apparent birthmarks in the next. But the article notes 'Interestingly, and contrary to most religious notions of reincarnation, there was zero evidence of karma.' But again - what would you accept as 'evidence'?
I suppose the kind of answer you offer might depend on your karma ;-)
Brain scans and mental development tests of those who are pro-karma vs. those who are anti-karma.
Percentages of self made millionaires that identify as pro-karma vs. percentage of those in post retirement(60yrs old) poverty that are pro-karma.
All to see if karma is a good thing to adopt into my beliefs and or superstitions. I will do whatever it takes to succeed in my own eyes, if adopting certin superstitions that I know are not true will even give me a psychological edge; then I will adopt them.
But if you accept that it's true, what's the worst that can happen? It would seem to me, you would only be disappointed if you were expecting something to happen as a result, and it didn't happen. But I don't think that is a good reason to believe in it.
Quoting XanderTheGrey
'Whatever he's having, I'll have some of that'.
The only possible helpful wish, from a karmic perspective, is to get free of that. My advice would be: whatever it takes.
yeah, this is the internet. I should always remember that. :-*
what an absurdity...
Hi Wayfarer,
How is Karma conceptualised in Buddhism? Is it thought of as an energy field or an omnipotent hand or something like that ?
"If you don't change direction, you'll end up where you are going."
It probably is a different thread topic. Why don't you start it? We haven't discussed the aesthetics, ethics, or erotics of S & M or B & D recently. If you do, bear in mind that your thread needs to pass the moderators smell test. Take the high road in your opening post. (Don't go into a lot of nitty gritty detail). You don't want to frighten the horses.
Now, there's sadism and then there's sadism. Are you referencing a sexual practice where the sadist whips the consenting and eager masochist (real whip, real pain, real blood) or beats him up as part of a sexual scene, or are you talking about torturing people for your satisfaction alone, whether they consented or not?
The karmic consequences would probably be unfavorable for your case if you just liked to beat people up for the literal hell of it.
There 's a couple of cultural pieces you might like to take in: A film, Salò, or the 120 Days of Sodom (Italian: Salò o le 120 giornate di Sodoma), titled Pasolini's 120 Days of Sodom on English-language prints[2] and commonly referred to as simply Salò (Italian: [sa?l?]), is a 1975 Italian-French horror art film directed by Pier Paolo Pasolini. It is based on the book The 120 Days of Sodom by the Marquis de Sade. I saw it in 1976 at the University Film Society in Minneapolis. Some conservative legislators threatened to defund the Film Society, punish the University of Minnesota, or burn the projectionist at the stake. The police threatened to seize the film as obscene. It could not have had better publicity for any price. The film quite effectively evoked disgust, actually, but nobody walked out. It had good production values. Quality trash.
Another item you might like is “Secret Historian: The Life and Times of Samuel Steward: Professor, Tattoo Artist, and Sexual Renegade” by Justin Spring recounts the life of Sam Steward, an English professor at a Chicago University (can't remember, sorry). He was fired when the university found out that Steward was running a tattoo parlor. They would have fired him a lot sooner had they known the whole story.
Steward was a classic masochist who needed a good beating every now and then, plus some humiliating (fulfilling) sex. And beaten up he was, sometimes ending up in the hospital. He appreciated that there were sadists who would oblige him (they were a rare commodity). “He paid the price for being himself,” Mr. Spring said, “but at least he got to be himself.”
Steward was a high flyer, including in his circle Thornton Wilder, Paul Cadmus, Gertrude Stein, Alice B. Toklas, Christopher Isherwood, Alfred Kinsey, the photographer George Platt Lynes, and various Chicago toughs. Great book!
Quoting XanderTheGrey
Assimilation worked well for the Borg of Star Trek fame; I doubt if it would work for you. [You will be assimilated; resistance is futile. You will comply.] You seem a bit too ruthlessly realistic to benefit from adopted superstitions. Do you carry a rabbit's foot with you for good luck? Do you pray for success? Do you avoid inauspicious numbers? I bet not.
Hi Rich,
I like this quote. If we are a memory field though, changing direction may be a harder then it appears.
Yes, change its difficult. It takes patience and lots of experimentation. A Yogi gone wrote that Karma is like a every deep lake and the raindrops falling on the surface, from a single lifetime, can only change so much. We must have lots of patience. Tai Chi teaches patience.
Namely, the problem of locating a beginning. In the world on a human scale everything seems to have a beginning and, of course, an end.
However, the beginning of life, the universe, and anything on that scale, is a problem. For one thing, we can always ask ''what was there before a particular beginning?"
To avoid this people invent a circular paradigm that effectively, or not, dissolves the problem of beginnings. Karma is one of such paradigms.
But to put our life situation, whatever that might be, in the context of our past deeds (lives) is entirely reasonable if you believe in Karma. I thought of something. Wait.
I think the logic works like this:
If you're bad (cause) then you'll suffer (effect). That's to say, bad deeds lead to suffering.
However, here's the interesting bit:
If you suffer then it doesn't follow that you were bad. It could be that other people are bad or ignorant, hopefully the latter.
Your anti-fatalistic interpretation of Karma makes sense that way.
But then, if that's the case, and I haven't talked about good deeds, it means doing good is no guarantee for happiness in the next life. Doesn't that significantly weaken the ethical appeal of Karma, to say nothing of the fact that Karma, like all religious ethics, is an argumentum ad baculum.
Quoting Wayfarer
Why is that? I think Karma is one of the most scientific of religious claims. It's simple, explains evil/suffering, coherent (at least more so than the beliefs of other religions) and, above all, testable.
Since, people are reborn, we can confirm/disconfirm Karma and with past lives, memories can be tested (your post mentioned children with past life memories).
Before I say anything else I want to first thank you for those referances Bitter Crank, I still very young and spent most of my life outside any good form of education. You giving me refrences for rare works that I may enjoy on the deepest levels of my personality strikes me as a very kind and caring thing to do. I will be giving them a look the next time I feel alone in this world. Which will probably be in the next 20 minutes.
And to everyone else, well, I really didn't expect this forum to be so active. I'm overwhelmed with the extent of the responses. But it just so happens that I now have more time on my hands than ever, so I feel I should address each sincere and or lengthy response with another response; if not one at a time, or one per day, and simply for the effort of establishing some respect and repoire, as I'd like to benifit atleast alittle from this forum somehow.
Now Bitter Crank; this is just it you see, you speak here as if one can benifit from adopting a superstition. Then you say, l'm "too ruthlessly realistic" to benefit from one. Are you saying that realism free of superstitions is a superior formula component for personal success, and that adopting a superstitous belife would be a downgrade? Or are you saying that it has to do with me? That I may be a natural realist, and that a natural realist cannot hold sufficient stable faith in a superstition.
Would you then go on to say that you must fully belive in a superstition in order to benefit from it? You see I was heading in the direction of the qestion: "does adhering to similar patterns in which those who belive in karma adhere to, seem to result in a similar amount of personal success, regardless of wether or not the person belives in karma?" This is my secound objective in asking the original qestion im sure you can see; "to look for patterns that seem to lead to success." I dont know how to conduct an experiment to answer such a question, but I feel that one could certainly be conducted, and that it is indeed a scientific question; even if I'm failing to ask it in scientific terms dispite my efforts to do so.
There are two reasons for this:
1. What leads to "success" is thinking organized around the goal of achieving "success" (whatever that is for you). The kind of thinking that leads to success establishes clear goals, sets priorities, lays out strategies, tests the results, revises, and moves on to an improved plan.
2. Belief in karma, the compassionate Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed (or any number of religious ideas) isn't like shopping for a new and better pair of running shoes, or a new suit, or some other object. Belief requires a conversion experience, and conversion experiences can't be forced, demanded, scheduled, or planned on.
Karma is part of a larger belief system -- it isn't like yoga or meditation that can be adopted by all sorts of people as a practice to stay limber or calm their minds. It's a piece of one of the world's major religions. It's not really a "removable component" -- at least I don't think it is.
Quoting XanderTheGrey
I don't know enough about you. I have only what you have said here to go on. If you are "a natural realist", then realism is the way to go. Like I said, "adopting a superstition" or "a belief in karma" or a belief in something else, is not a workable strategy.
My opinion, for what it's worth (probably not a lot) is that adopting a superstition is a definite downgrade. It's a downgrade from first class to the baggage compartment of the airplane.
There are people who have conducted research into the nature of success, what makes some people more successful than other people, and so on. People like Stephen R. Covey, Seven Habits of Highly Successful People, have delved into this. (DO NOT rush out and buy the book, please). Research has been done into how belief systems figure into successful behavior. Sure, there's a connection -- but it isn't an obvious straight forward connection.
People who have well organized belief systems seem to be happier, have better social relationships, and live longer than people who do not have well organized belief systems. But be careful: it may not be the content of the beliefs that make people happier. We don't really know, for sure.
If you are a young person (like, high school? In your twenties? You didn't say.) and anxious to get on with life, this all seems very urgent. I recommend a slow and steady approach. As you get older (not like in 50 years, more like 5 years) this will become clearer. It takes time.
I bought it quite awhile ago, useless book!
1) Be Proactive
2) Have a Goal
3) Keep First Things First Things (Prioritise)
4) Think win-win
5) Understand others first, then seek to be understood (empathy)
6) Synergy & Teamwork
7) Continuous self-improvement/growth
Will all help, but "key" to success? Doubt it. Though the last one I think is extremely important for long-term success compared to the other ones he has listed.
Tinkerbell Effect....if you believe hard enough it will effect what happens, all the research suggest it works, because you believe it will work. The truly virtuous man will never suffer evil.