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Known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns

Shawn September 07, 2017 at 11:51 7225 views 11 comments
This was one of my all time favorite Western koans. I wanted to break it down in understanding what it really means. I think it doesn't take too much effort to see it's an epistemological statement. However, I don't know if the following works and am wondering about the input of interpretations of the statement. Here's my take:

1) Known knowns
2) Known unknowns
3) Unknown unknowns.

For us to begin examining known unknowns and unknown unknowns, we first have to acknowledge and understand 1 & 2, to get to 3, for there anything meaningful to be said at all. We can acknowledge 1 by asserting that 'X'. Then we can acknowledge 2 by saying 'What X isn't' And, finally proceeding to 3, based on our knowledge of 1 and 2 (X, and what X isn't), then we can start examining what it (X) really is in reality or to put another way, the sum total of 1 and 2, creates the grounds for beginning to examine 3 by constantly referring back to 1 and 2, with the loop starting from 1 to 2 and repeating until certainty can be arrived at.

Comments (11)

szardosszemagad September 07, 2017 at 14:14 #103168
Will work if X is everything we know. If X is a table, instead of everything we know, then a "What table is not " is a chair, and yet we know things about a chair. So X has to be the complete sum of all knowledge by a human or by a unit.

What is not X then becomes not only a known unknown, but an unkown unknown. When we take all knowledge, and we must according to the previous paragraph, then we can't extrapolate from there. Because to do so, we must have knowledge of things that are not X. But we have no such knowledge.

Therefore I must say that 2 does not exist; it's either known knowns, or unknown unknowns. This is the end point of the reasoning.

Yet in reality we have known unknowns. "How much does the third man in power in China weigh?" Is a known unknown. "Is the weight of this third person in power rapidly increasing now, or rapidly decreasing, or staying more-or-less the same?" This denies the unknown of the unknown.

So according to your essay, the test proves that "known unknowns" are in fact not in existence; and reality is such, that unknown unknowns are not known.

Therefore your theory, described in your essay, does not fit reality.
Shawn September 07, 2017 at 23:41 #103250
Deviating from the OP, I was wondering how does one arrive at knowledge or certainty given known knowns, known unknowns, and the seemingly metaphysical unknown unknowns?

Any ideas or thoughts on the matter?
szardosszemagad September 08, 2017 at 02:06 #103273
Quoting Posty McPostface
how does one arrive at knowledge or certainty given known knowns, known unknowns, and the seemingly metaphysical unknown unknowns?


Thanks, Posty, I was wondering about that myself, but I slid over it lightly.
Shawn September 08, 2017 at 02:23 #103276
Quoting szardosszemagad
Will work if X is everything we know.


X can be a proposition or statement of any sort.

Quoting szardosszemagad
So X has to be the complete sum of all knowledge by a human or by a unit.


X can also be an existential quantifier or again a statement of any sort.

Quoting szardosszemagad
What is not X then becomes not only a known unknown, but an unkown unknown.


Well, it can be some causal factor that we don't understand. Take a scientific fact for example. We know the conditions that make it true, but there could arise conditions that challenge our understanding of said phenomena, then we have a known unknown to deal with.

Quoting szardosszemagad
Therefore I must say that 2 does not exist; it's either known knowns, or unknown unknowns. This is the end point of the reasoning.


See the previous paragraph.

Quoting szardosszemagad
So according to your essay, the test proves that "known unknowns" are in fact not in existence; and reality is such, that unknown unknowns are not known.


Then we have no way of expanding our knowledge in that case or rather the conditions you limit epistemic knowledge would only be hard truths like 2 + 2 is 4.
Shawn September 08, 2017 at 03:27 #103285
There is also one last case, which I think resolves the issue.

An unknown known is something that you thought you knew was the case but was not in reality.
Baden September 08, 2017 at 06:24 #103303
Reply to Posty McPostface

No, an unknown known is something that you know, but you don't know you know. Something you thought you knew but isn't is just a false belief.
Baden September 08, 2017 at 06:26 #103304
Zizek does an interesting analysis of this in one of his several million online vids. And I thought we discussed it here or on old PF before.
Shawn September 08, 2017 at 06:33 #103305
Reply to Baden

I was quoting almost verbatim what Rummy said in one of his memo's or more explicitly in a documentary he starred in called 'The Unknown Known' (2013). It was worth a watch. I saw Fog Of War, also, but Rummy takes the cake, a true believer in the cause, unlike unbiased and cool McNamara in the Fog Of War.

Shawn September 08, 2017 at 06:38 #103306
Quoting Baden
Zizek does an interesting analysis of this in one of his several million online vids. And I thought we discussed it here or on old PF before.


Send a link if you can. Zizek has a knack for turning everything to some sexual impetus. I may as well have started that thread. I tend to bring up such obscure saying and when an analysis is applied, they get even muddier.
Baden September 08, 2017 at 07:12 #103310
Shawn September 08, 2017 at 07:33 #103314
Reply to Baden

Typical Zizek. I liked the part where he said American's can't control themselves, it's the unknown knowns driving decision making.