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The Fool's Paradox

TheMadFool July 23, 2017 at 13:58 15450 views 53 comments
I know viewpoints may vary here. Depends a lot on worldview, attitude, and strategic thinking. Anyway let me present, what to me appears peculiar, a case. I'll then present my views and you can comment.

Scenario 1

Which do you prefer as a friend?
1. A fool
2. A genius

A genius can be good company, someone to learn from but, a big but, it's not wise to be with people who're too smart (think superintelligent aliens). A fool on the other hand will have no deliberate intentions to harm you and will be good fun to be with - a friend, in other words.

Scenario 2

Which do you prefer as an enemy?
1. A fool
2. A genius

Obviously, not a genius. He's to smart and will outmaneuver you and beat you. So, again a fool is preferable - as an enemy. You can beat him easily.

But...

This is paradoxical. A fool suits both as a friend and as an enemy.

How do you solve this paradox?

Comments (53)

Sir2u July 23, 2017 at 21:01 #89609
Reply to TheMadFool
This is paradoxical. A fool suits both as a friend and as an enemy.

How do you solve this paradox?

A fool might let you die because he doesn't realize that you are drowning until it is too late, so it would be better to have a smart person as a friend.

A smart person as an enemy would be a challenge, but you would never underestimate him as you might a fool.

A smart person suits both as a friend and as an enemy.
How do you solve this paradox?
TheMadFool July 23, 2017 at 21:08 #89613
Reply to Sir2u Thank you. You created another paradox but you didn't solve the fool's predicament.
Sir2u July 23, 2017 at 21:13 #89620
Reply to TheMadFool Thank you. You created another paradox but you didn't solve the fool's predicament.

So now we have identical twin paradoxes. :P

I actually don't think either are paradoxes, just descriptions of interesting situations.
Joseph July 23, 2017 at 21:21 #89626
In both cases the genius is the worse pick because he has the upper hand. However, if we pick the fool we have the upper hand - in that case, we become the genius.
TheMadFool July 23, 2017 at 21:28 #89633
Reply to Sir2u I think human relationship is a spectrum between love(friend) and hate(foe). A fool has to constantly live with the contradiction: friend AND foe to all. How does the poor guy make sense of his relationships?

What should a fool think when he meets someone? Friend/Foe? Which is the best strategy to follow (for a fool)? To avoid everyone or embrace everyone?
TheMadFool July 23, 2017 at 21:30 #89634
Reply to Joseph Yes, but friend and foe are contradictory.
Joseph July 23, 2017 at 21:40 #89646
It's only contradictory if you choose both simultaneously. The reason for each choice is the same: you have the upper hand around the fool, whether friend or foe or a neutral party.
Sir2u July 23, 2017 at 21:42 #89650
Reply to TheMadFool A fool has to constantly live with the contradiction: friend AND foe to all. How does the poor guy make sense of his relationships?Reply to TheMadFool

Just ask any genius how they deal with the same problem. Most would say that they do the same as any fool would and stay away from people that don't like them.

Reply to TheMadFoolWhat should a fool think when he meets someone? Friend/Foe?

Everyone has this problem.
Michael Ossipoff July 23, 2017 at 22:06 #89668
Quoting TheMadFool
I know viewpoints may vary here. Depends a lot on worldview, attitude, and strategic thinking. Anyway let me present, what to me appears peculiar, a case. I'll then present my views and you can comment.

Scenario 1

Which do you prefer as a friend?
1. A fool
2. A genius

I'd choose the genius.


A genius can be good company, someone to learn from but, a big but, it's not wise to be with people who're too smart


Why not?

[quote]
(think superintelligent aliens).


What do you have against superintelligent aliens?

(...other than that there probably aren't any.)


A fool on the other hand will have no deliberate intentions to harm you and will be good fun to be with - a friend, in other words.


If you're in love with her, there's no reason why there couldn't be a genuinely, fully good, two-sided mutual relationship.

Aside from that, of course there are many activities that can be shared with anyone who is pleasant. And yes, the people you're referring to wouldn't have lots of the kinds of personality-defects that others can, and often do, have.

Often it's the complex devices that go haywire.

For example, a cat or dog won't have all the tiresome psychological problems that would put you off from many or most humans.

But, if you think that all fools are good company, then I suggest that you visit the Reincarnation topic at these forums.


Scenario 2

Which do you prefer as an enemy?
1. A fool
2. A genius


The fool, of course.


Obviously, not a genius. He's to smart and will outmaneuver you and beat you. So, again a fool is preferable - as an enemy. You can beat him easily.


...or evade him.



But...

This is paradoxical. A fool suits both as a friend and as an enemy.

How do you solve this paradox?


Even if true, it wouldn't be paradoxical. Fools could just be better. But, in general, as a friend, the genius would be more interesting company, and more helpful, in various ways, including as someone from whom you can learn more.

(But we learn important things from our pets. I used to walk our dog, and that dog (choosing the routes) taught me about the outdoors and the exploration of places. And many people report having learned important things from animals.)

Michael Ossipoff
andrewk July 23, 2017 at 23:21 #89693
Quoting TheMadFool
This is paradoxical. A fool suits both as a friend and as an enemy.

I can't see any paradox in that, nor even anything surprising.

There are many examples where a certain set-up is the best at both extremes of a linear continuum.

eg, which would you prefer to have as the sole enclosure of your body as you pass through a 200 degree oven?
(1) light underwear
(2) a heavily insulated non-combustible airtight capsule with built-in life-support systems

and what about as you pass through a minus 200 degree super-freezer?

All it demonstrates is that many relationships in the world are non-linear.
Metaphysician Undercover July 24, 2017 at 00:50 #89725
Quoting TheMadFool
This is paradoxical. A fool suits both as a friend and as an enemy.


The best people in the world are fools, and so are the worst people in the world. No paradox here because "best and worst" refer to a different set of qualities from "fool and genius".
Cavacava July 24, 2017 at 01:04 #89728
Reply to TheMadFool

A fool suits both as a friend and as an enemy


So a fool can be a friend or an enemy. I don't think that's paradoxical. If there are two sets, a) the set of all friends and b) the set of all enemies then why can't a fool be a member of both sets
dclements July 24, 2017 at 03:45 #89758
"I know viewpoints may vary here. Depends a lot on worldview, attitude, and strategic thinking. Anyway let me present, what to me appears peculiar, a case. I'll then present my views and you can comment.

Scenario 1

Which do you prefer as a friend?
1. A fool
2. A genius

A genius can be good company, someone to learn from but, a big but, it's not wise to be with people who're too smart (think superintelligent aliens). A fool on the other hand will have no deliberate intentions to harm you and will be good fun to be with - a friend, in other words.

Scenario 2
Which do you prefer as an enemy?
1. A fool
2. A genius

Obviously, not a genius. He's to smart and will outmaneuver you and beat you. So, again a fool is preferable - as an enemy. You can beat him easily.

But...

This is paradoxical. A fool suits both as a friend and as an enemy.

How do you solve this paradox?"
--TheMadFool
It only seems like a paradox because you are comparing apples to oranges. In Machiavellian type thinking (the typical framework where one deals with an real enemy) the opposite of an enemy isn't a friend but an ally. and having a fool for an ally and or allies is usually not a good thing. Perhaps a very smart person in power may not have too much of a problem being surrounded by fools, but if one is of limited capacity themselves and then they make the mistake of hiring fools to advise them, then it will likely spell disaster at some point.

If you are a king or a leader of some sort it might be useful to talk to or be entertained by a fool or jester, but the people that occupy such positions are not part of the same spectrum as one's advisors, allies, or political enemies.
TheMadFool July 24, 2017 at 07:45 #89772
Reply to Joseph Reply to Michael Ossipoff Reply to andrewk Reply to CavacavaReply to dclements

[Quote=Wikipedia]A paradox is a statement that, despite apparently sound reasoning from true premises, leads to a self-contradictory or a logically unacceptable conclusion.[/quote]

A friend is not a foe and the converse is true.

So, when a fool is both a "good" friend and foe, there's a paradox because friend and foe are mutually exclusive classes. There can't be a person who's both a friend and a foe. So, where do we place the fool. Please construct a Venn diagram to understand the paradox. The overlap area between the friend class and foe class is empty. So, no member of the fool class can occupy that region. Hence, the paradox.
Michael Ossipoff July 24, 2017 at 18:13 #89844
Reply to TheMadFool

But no one's saying that the same individual can be both a friend and a foe.

The proposition is just that, if a fool is a friend, then s/he's a more desirable friend than non-fools.

...and that if a fool is an enemy, then s/he's a more desirable enemy than non-fools.

A dog makes a better junk-yard guard than does a snail.

A dog makes a better sled-puller than does a snail.

That doesn't imply that every dog is both a junk-yard guard and a sled-puller.

Michael Ossipoff

Michael Ossipoff July 24, 2017 at 18:16 #89845
...or that the same dog must be able to be both a junkyard-guard and a sled-puller.

Michael Ossipoff
TheMadFool July 24, 2017 at 18:48 #89849
Quoting Michael Ossipoff
But no one's saying that the same individual can be both a friend and a foe.


But...

A fool is both a ''good'' friend and a foe. A fool is both at the same time. That's not possible because no friends are foes.
Michael July 24, 2017 at 18:52 #89850
Quoting TheMadFool
A fool is both a ''good'' friend and a foe. A fool is both at the same time. That's not possible because no friends are foes.


No, because it's not the same fool. The friend fool isn't the foe fool.

You might as well argue that it's a paradox for a friend and a foe to both be doctors.
TheMadFool July 25, 2017 at 02:45 #90020
Reply to Michael Please draw a Venn diagram.

I'm talking about ALL fools
Joseph July 25, 2017 at 03:37 #90055
Reply to TheMadFool
The fool can be a good friend, or he can be a good foe. That doesn't mean he is either of them. Since he need not be either of them in your scenario, he isn't paradoxically simultaneously both.
Michael July 25, 2017 at 06:33 #90105
Reply to TheMadFool What about all fools? Some might be your friend, some might be your foe, and most will be complete strangers.

You're not making any sense.
andrewk July 25, 2017 at 06:49 #90106
Reply to TheMadFool User image
Does this help?

Also, I would prefer a genius as a friend, because I see no reason to expect that the genius would use their super-powers against me, and I'd be concerned that I'd get impatient with the less-intellectually gifted alternative and be rude to them, which would upset them and me.

But maybe that's just me.
TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 07:35 #90396
Reply to Joseph A fool is a ''good'' friend and a ''good'' enemy. It's not a ''can'' issue.
Noble Dust July 26, 2017 at 07:48 #90399
Quoting TheMadFool
This is paradoxical. A fool suits both as a friend and as an enemy.

How do you solve this paradox?


Befriend fools, not philosophers.
TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 07:51 #90401
Reply to andrewk Thanks for diagramming the content of my argument. Note, it's not drawn in standard form re categorical logic. Anyway:

Argument 1
[I]All[/i] fools are friends
No friends are foes
So,
A) No fools are foes

Argument 2
[I]All[/i] fools are foes
No friends are foes
So,
B) No fools are friends

A) No fools are foes means
C) It is false that Some fools are foes
B) No fools are friends means
D) It is false that Some fools are friends

But we know that:
E) Some fools are foes
F) Some fools are friends

C and E : contradiction
D and F : contradiction
Reply to Michael look above

TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 07:52 #90402
Reply to Noble Dust Good advice
Michael July 26, 2017 at 08:03 #90405
Reply to TheMadFool If we know that E) Some fools are foes and that F) Some fools are friends then we know that the premise "All fools are friends" in argument 1 is false and that the premise "All fools are foes" in argument 2 is false.

You're obviously going to get a contradiction if you start with contradictory premises.
TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 08:21 #90411
Quoting Michael
You're obviously going to get a contradiction if you start with contradictory premises


A) All fools are friends
B) All fools are foes
C) No friends are foes

A, B and C are true

We get the conclusions:

D) No fools are friends
E) No fools are foes

A and D can't both be true. They can both be false:
F) Some fools are not friends. But F contradicts A.

B and E can't both be true. They can both be false: G) Some fools are foes. But G contradicts E.
Michael July 26, 2017 at 08:31 #90416
Quoting TheMadFool
A) All fools are friends
B) All fools are foes
C) No friends are foes

A, B and C are true


A, B, and C can't all be true, as that entails a contradiction. If your premises lead to a contradiction then one or more of your premises are false. It's a straightforward proof by contradiction.
Michael July 26, 2017 at 08:59 #90426
Furthermore, your claims are ambiguous. When you say that someone is a friend, are you saying that they're my friend or that they're someone's friend? Because a fool can be a friend to one person and a foe to another. So which of these are you trying to say?

1. All fools are my[sup]1[/sup] friends
2. All fools are my[sup]1[/sup] foes
3. None of my[sup]1[/sup] friends are my[sup]1[/sup] foes

4. All fools are someone's friend
5. All fools are someone's foe
6. No-one is a friend to one person and a foe to another

Regardless, 3) is the only reasonable premise.

[sup]1[/sup] Can replace with any individual
andrewk July 26, 2017 at 09:56 #90437
Quoting TheMadFool
Note, it's not drawn in standard form re categorical logic.

No, it's not. It's a Venn diagram, which is what you asked for.
Bee July 26, 2017 at 11:04 #90447
Whoever posted this question has never dealt with the latter
TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 11:39 #90452
Quoting Michael
A, B, and C can't all be true, as that entails a contradiction.


Exactly. How do you solve it?

You can't deny that a fool is a ''good'' friend. He'll not harm you intentionally. Which means: All fools are friends.

You can't deny that a fool is a ''good'' enemy. He's stupid and in fact, if you're his/her foe, all you'll have to do is wait until he commits a fatal mistake. Which means: All fools are foes.

We also know No friends are foes. You can't deny that fools and foes are mutually exclusive classes.

A contradiction naturally follows. That's the paradox.

Michael July 26, 2017 at 11:40 #90453
Quoting TheMadFool
Exactly. How do you solve it?


By rejecting one or more of the premises.

You can't deny that a fool is a ''good'' friend. He'll not harm you intentionally. Which means: All fools are friends.


No it doesn't.

You can't deny that a fool is a ''good'' enemy. He's stupid and in fact, if you're his/her foe, all you'll have to do is wait until he commits a fatal mistake. Which means: All fools are foes.


No it doesn't.
TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 11:41 #90455
Quoting andrewk
It's a Venn diagram, which is what you asked for.


Your diagram allows for:

1. Some fools are not friends
2. Some fools are not foes

Both 1 and 2 contradict the truths of

All fools are friends
All fools are foes

The above are undeniable. See the post above.

So, the Venn diagram is flawed.
TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 11:41 #90456
Reply to Michael But you can't reject any of the premises. They are all true
Michael July 26, 2017 at 11:42 #90457
Quoting TheMadFool
But you can't reject any of the premises. They are all true


They're not. There are more fools than I have friends. That's a fact. Therefore not all fools are my friends. There are more fools than I have foes. That's a fact. Therefore not all fools are my foes.

Furthermore, they can't all be true, given that it leads to a contradiction.
andrewk July 26, 2017 at 12:38 #90466
Quoting TheMadFool
Both 1 and 2 contradict the truths of

All fools are friends
All fools are foes

I don't know why you have suddenly come to believe this. But it's not correct, as Michael points out.

If you really want to grow your understanding, you'd be better off reading carefully what people say, and thinking about it, rather than just automatically arguing against it, because you have fallen in love with an idea you had.
TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 12:49 #90469
Reply to andrewkReply to Michael

Any fool is a good friend because a fool will not harm you intentionally: All fools are friends

Any fool is a ''good'' foe because a fool is easy to defeat: All fools are foes

Friends and foes are exclusive classes: No friends are foes

Can you deny any of these premises? If you can specify please.
Michael July 26, 2017 at 12:51 #90471
Quoting TheMadFool
Any fool is a good friend because a fool will not harm you intentionally: All fools are friends


There are millions of fools in the world. I don't have millions of friends. Therefore not all fools are friends.

Any fool is a ''good'' foe because a fool is easy to defeat: All fools are foes


There are millions of fools in the world. I don't have millions of foes. Therefore not all fools are foes.

You're talking rubbish.
Joseph July 26, 2017 at 13:03 #90483
Reply to TheMadFool It isn't true that C) No friends are foes. I'm a friend to some people and I'm a foe to others. The premise is false and therefore any conclusions drawn from it are unsound.
TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 13:09 #90487
Reply to Michael Perhaps you misunderstood me.

All fools are friends doesn't mean that they actually have to be your friends, as in have to eat, talk, play with you. It's simply that they don't harm you intentionally that makes them friends.

All fools are foes doesn't they have to out to get you. It's just the fact that you can defeat them easily that makes them ''good'' foes. Anyway, the phrase ''A sucker is born every minute'' shows that people are always looking for the next fool to cheat and that's a inimical relationship.

So, you can't deny any of the original premises.
TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 13:11 #90489
Reply to Joseph A person can't be a friend and a foe to the same person. That's what I mean
Michael July 26, 2017 at 13:16 #90490
Reply to TheMadFool

So X is a friend if X doesn't intentionally harm me, and X is a foe if I can defeat X easily.

Then if someone doesn't intentionally harm me and if I can defeat them easily then they are both friend and foe. You've defined "friend" and "foe" in such a way that they aren't exclusive classes.
Joseph July 26, 2017 at 17:29 #90541
Reply to TheMadFool With that interpretation, your argument can be translated as such:

A) Each fool a friend of someone S1
B) Each fool is a foe of someone S2
C) No foes of someone are also a friend to them

The conclusions:
D) No fools are a foe to anyone
E) No fools are a friend to anyone

I gather this is the intended interpretation of your argument. If not, explain how it isn't.

The conclusion doesn't follow from the premises; all that is necessary is that each friend S1 of each fool is not also a foe S2 to that fool. S1 =/= S2. Feel free to substitute cats and dogs into the argument form and derive nonsense.
TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 20:11 #90565
Quoting Michael
You've defined "friend" and "foe" in such a way that they aren't exclusive classes


I haven't done that. Even if I have, the odd nature of a fool being a friend and foe stands out. It is a paradox.

Reply to Joseph See above.
Michael July 26, 2017 at 20:54 #90579
Quoting TheMadFool
I haven't done that. Even if I have, the odd nature of a fool being a friend and foe stands out. It is a paradox


You're not making any sense.
TheMadFool July 26, 2017 at 20:59 #90582
Quoting Michael
You're not making any sense


That's the paradox
Michael July 26, 2017 at 21:01 #90584
Reply to TheMadFool There is no paradox. You're just talking nonsense. @andrewk was spot on here.
andrewk July 26, 2017 at 22:30 #90612
Quoting TheMadFool
Any fool is a good friend because a fool will not harm you intentionally

You don't mind if they harm you unintentionally? You would be happy to have as a friend a knife-wielding psychotic that believes he's surrounded by orcs?

Even if that were the case, 'could be a friend' is not the same as 'is a friend', as Michael keeps pointing out and you continue to not understand.

Think of the kindest person you have heard of in this world that you have never met. Would they be a great friend if you knew them? Probably. Are they your friend? No, because you have never met them.

Quoting TheMadFool
Friends and foes are exclusive classes: No friends are foes
Really? In the trenches in the Great war, Helmut was Fritz's friend on the German side and Bill was Bob's friend on the British side. Yet Helmut and Fritz were Bill and Bob's foes and vice versa.

Have you never heard the phrase 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'? It's a gross over-simplification but it should at least give you pause for thought.
TheMadFool July 27, 2017 at 07:08 #90704
Quoting Michael
There is no paradox


Really? But you haven't been able to deny any of the premises in my argument:
1. All fools are friends
2. All fools are foes
3. No foes are friends

If you can't do so, the paradox holds.

Quoting andrewk
You don't mind if they harm you unintentionally?


Well, the general perception seems to be that intent in crimes is a crucial element in deciding the punishment. A simple example in law is the distinction ''death from negligence'' and ''premeditated murder''. Also, ''sorry, it was accidental'' is high up in the world of apologies.

Quoting andrewk
Really? In the trenches in the Great war, Helmut was Fritz's friend on the German side and Bill was Bob's friend on the British side. Yet Helmut and Fritz were Bill and Bob's foes and vice versa


Yes, but Fritz wasn't Helmut's foe and friend. Also, Bill wasn't Bob's friend and foe.
andrewk July 27, 2017 at 10:54 #90739
Reply to TheMadFool I give up. You appear determined to hold on to your belief regardless of all considerations. I wish you joy of it.
TheMadFool July 28, 2017 at 13:45 #91001
Quoting andrewk
I give up.


:)