Black and White
Racism is thankfully a thing of the past. Pockets of racial supremacists exist but it's been stamped out in the political domain, if not in practice at least in spirit.
That's a good thing! For the opressed there's political gain and for the opressor there's moral gain. A very narrow outlook but suffice it to say that both parties gain.
The struggle for racial equality has been a tough one. I wouldn't be wrong in saying that without the help of white people, black people wouldn't have achieved equality this soon and with this much ease. I'm not devaluing the great effort on the part of black people. I'm just stating an obvious fact. So, to a significant extent, black people owe their freedom to good white men and women.
There were/are white folks who value(d) equality and justice for ALL men and women. They were/are important in the struggle for racial equality.
I may sound crazy or stupid or both (TheMadFool remember?) but my question is, is/was there an opposite to this general truth? In other words, was/is there a black man/woman who sympathized with white folks? To take it to the extreme, was/is there a black man who was/is a white supremacist?
Given that white people sided with black people, the question is reasonable, if only in the sense of fairness.
Your comments.
That's a good thing! For the opressed there's political gain and for the opressor there's moral gain. A very narrow outlook but suffice it to say that both parties gain.
The struggle for racial equality has been a tough one. I wouldn't be wrong in saying that without the help of white people, black people wouldn't have achieved equality this soon and with this much ease. I'm not devaluing the great effort on the part of black people. I'm just stating an obvious fact. So, to a significant extent, black people owe their freedom to good white men and women.
There were/are white folks who value(d) equality and justice for ALL men and women. They were/are important in the struggle for racial equality.
I may sound crazy or stupid or both (TheMadFool remember?) but my question is, is/was there an opposite to this general truth? In other words, was/is there a black man/woman who sympathized with white folks? To take it to the extreme, was/is there a black man who was/is a white supremacist?
Given that white people sided with black people, the question is reasonable, if only in the sense of fairness.
Your comments.
Comments (41)
And without the help of White people there wouldn't have been racism against Blacks. Whites held, raped, and killed the slaves. Whites lynched and terrorized Blacks in the South and North, and Whites set rules of segregation and Jim Crow. So, Whites can hardly hang their heads high for ending racism when they were the major spreaders of and participants in it in the US.
And the fact Blacks, and Native Americans, and Latinos, and the Japanese Americans have forgiven Whites and, for the most part, do not hold it against us for what our ancestors did and some of us still do, shows Blacks and other POC have shown great sympathy towards us.
Also, just for the moment, allow the simplifications I've made in the narrative and answer my question:
Is there a black person who's a white supremacist?
It is not a fact that racism has been purged from the political sphere, and you haven't shown it has. The fact unarmed Black adults and children are still being rampantly killed by police, who represent the government, proves it hasn't. And whether or not it is illegal to discriminate by race, many industries do and are not punished for it.
And I have no idea if there a Black White supremacist. Why do you ask?
What kind of a worldview would such a person have? It would be self-contradictory at its foundation. Being Black and anti-Black at the same time.
The inquiry is legitmate because the opposite is true. We have white people who are anti-white by supporting racial equality.
Ridiculous. White people are not anti-White by supporting racial equality; they are pro-equality and anti-racism.
Yes. You're right. I thought of that. Supporting racial equality serves a higher purpose. Anyway, we could wiggle and jiggle until the whole thing becomes pro-something BUT that doesn't change the fact that fighting for the enemy amounts to treachery.
That's beside the point. All I'm asking is ''is there a black person who's a white supremacist?''.
His/her presence would be a contradiction.
His/her absence would be surprising since there are whites fighting for blacks.
Sorry, I did no "wiggling and jiggling" and the Blacks were never the White's enemy; we just made them our victims.
As to the Black White supremacist, you'll have to ask someone else. I've never heard of such thing.
This is what happens when you have a vapid, shallow understanding of 'equality' that doesn't take into account existing power differentials by which equality actually, really functions in the real world.
No, it just isn't true that racism is a thing of the past. It hasn't been purged from the body politic or individual behaviors. Race consciousness is too deep (at this point anyway) for racism to disappear. Maybe "race consciousness" doesn't even need to disappear. "Consciousness of race" isn't the problem. It's systematic discrimination that is the problem.
What keeps blacks in physical and cultural ghettoes are the legacies of policies going back before 1865. Some of the policies which have resulted in ongoing impoverishment of blacks were instituted in the 1930s and later. Two prime examples:
Federally insured home loans were begun in the 1930s. This program was explicitly for white borrowers and was explicitly not for black borrowers. Even though the court ruled the explicit policy unconstitutional, the policy continued as if the court had said nothing. By this policy, blacks were barred from the one means that working and "middle class" people had of accumulating wealth: home ownership in good neighborhoods.
After WWII, the Veterans Administration adopted the federal policy and would not issue federally-insured mortgages to black veterans.
Another federal program that robbed blacks of wealth was the federal highway program. When freeways were planned in the 1950s and 1960s, they frequently were routed through the most stable and viable black communities. Generally these communities were wrecked in the process.
The so-called War on Drugs also had a very negative effect on the black population. A large percent of black men ended up with felony convictions and served time in prison. A felony criminal record practically guarantees that a man will have great difficulty finding work--regardless of skills or education.
Do some blacks identify with white folks? Do some blacks wish they were white? Do some whites identify with blacks? Do some whites wish they were black? Sure, some do. If I were on the bottom of the social heap, I would wish I were like the people on top. Cross cultural identity is not all that unusual. People have various reasons for doing so. Some of the reasons are ideological; some are guilt based; some are opportunistic; some are sexual; all sorts of reasons.
It was not only kings who believed in the divine right of kings. Institutionalised prejudice becomes reality, and you might as well be asking if poor people ever value money.
The term generally used if you want to investigate is 'internalised racism'. There is much written about how black and mixed folks straighten their hair, lighten their skin with bleach and other noxious substances, favour lighter skinned partners, put pegs on their children's noses to try and westernise them, and teach themselves and their children to permanently purse their lips to make them seem thinner. And that's just the beginning.
I think the question makes more sense if you separate race from culture, and assume that there are such relatively stable things as black and white culture.
If that distinction is made, then there are clearly black people who criticize general cultural trends within the wider 'black community' in favor of more traditional stereotypes of white (i.e. Western European) culture.
Of course race and culture are often aligned and therefore conflated. But we obviously see cases where white people identify more with black culture and, as mentioned, those in which black people identify with the dominant values and beliefs of white culture.
I prefer to see these identities as fluid rather than fixed, and also intermingling in such as way that all of us--regardless of ancestry--somehow benefit from being exposed to differing perspectives.
Not sure if this is the case. There's a ton of racial resentment--admittedly on 'both' sides these days--based upon historical grievances.
Identity politics has IMO contributed quite a bit to this phenomena of increased racial antagonisms. In fact, during the US presidential election I heard many a Democrat express absolute joy at the coming demise of the political power and influence of white middle and lower class voters. They often made no attempt to conceal the one group they do not represent, i.e. older white men, by conspicuously failing to mention them among those they do represent: blacks, Latinos, young people, women, etc. Reminds me of Carl Schmitt's friend/enemy distinction (as I understand it) as constituting the essence of politics.
That's just an observation and not at all meant to absolve white people from the legitimate grievances (both past and present) that often motivate POC to undertake political, social, cultural, and economic action against what they perceive to be an unjust status quo still largely dominated by those old white men.
This is the case. And the fact there is racial resentment--mostly deserved, some undeserved--doesnt' change that fact.
There are certainly anecdotal occurrences like this, but it doesn't change what I wrote. Japanese Americans aren't mostly attacking Whites for the internments. Blacks aren't mostly attacking Whites for their outrageous and still terrible treatment of them, and Native Americans arent' mostly spending their time attacking them for the holocaust White Americans and the White American US governments levied on them.
Oh boy....the "whites were slaves, too" narrative so popular among White supremacists.
I've been rumbled.
But why?
[Quote=Charles Darwin]from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.[/quote]
If Darwin is right, this form too should've evolved. There's nothing impossible about it. There are whites who fight for blacks. So, the converse should be there.
You say you've never heard of it yourself, so your question is ridiculous.
Except your problem, and its a racist one, is you see Whites fighting for equality and human rights for Blacks as "Black supremacists." They are not and that's an ugly notion. So, is your notion that a Black person fighting for rights for particular Whties--like poor or Gay Whites--would be "Black White supremacists". Again, that's not only nonsensical; it's offensive.
Race is a cultural construct.
See the American Anthropological Association Statement on Race.
If you want to do your part to end racism, reject the myth of biological race.
I do hope you're right about this, Thanatos Sand, but it just seems to me that with the presidencies of both Obama and now Trump we've become more racially polarized as a society than was the case when I was a kid in the 1980's. Not that things were perfect then by any stretch (e.g. Rodney King and the LA Riots, OJ Simpson Trial, etc.), and it's quite possible that some of this increased awareness of racial tension on my part could be due to the abundance of partisan and manipulative news sources, which pander to the prejudices of their intended audience through the frequent use of confirmation bias. But I still think we've regressed a bit overall in that time frame, and that racial relations are getting worse rather than better.
Also, I don't think harboring deep grudges against people of other races automatically leads to taking immediate, violent and retributory action against them. This just isn't a feasible course of action for an individual or a group to take, especially among those socially and politically marginalized, unless of course you're willing to die yourself or be sent to prison for a very long time. I would imagine, however, that the first step in the direction of violence is to demonize or dehumanize your perceived enemy. That much seems obvious, and some of the rhetoric I'm witnessing these days tends in that direction, even yours here which vilifies white people to a certain extent, and perhaps rightly so given our dark history. European Antisemitism predated the Holocaust, for instance, and the latter was only possible once these historical resentments against Jews became aligned with political power capable of acting upon them.
Anyhow, if you're privy to any recent studies comparing racial attitudes over the past few decades then I'd like to take a look at them, and will happily admit my error if you're right. I'd honestly love to be contradicted on this matter and to be in agreement with you that, on the whole, POC have forgiven us for what our ancestors did to their ancestors, and for what we continue to do to them each day. I'm neither proud nor ashamed of being a white guy. I'll acknowledge the obvious inhumane treatment that non-whites have been subjected to, I will search out wisdom and excellence form any source, regardless of skin color, and do other things that I feel are consistent with the desire to increase racial harmony and understanding.
I'll admit mine is probably a naive and simplistic view, but one of the great things about living in a city like Los Angeles is that you're exposed to a wide variety of people from different racial and cultural backgrounds each day. This being the case, generalizations tend to lose their force as you come across kind and intelligent people of all races, and of course their opposites. This says nothing of systemic racism, which needs to be acknowledged and dealt with as well. For what it's worth the one group I dislike more than any others are rich, stuffy, entitled white people, but even here I have to catch myself in the act of making hasty assumptions about them. I guess I'm much more class conscious than race conscious. This would probably be a different matter if I weren't white.
If you'd actually read my post and noticed I'd said "aren't mostly" in every case, you could have avoided wasting your time. If POC hadn't mostly forgiven us, Whites wouldn't mostly be living and working peacefully with them today. We are.
Also, I didn't vilify Whites in any way. Vilification is misrepresentation; I misrepresented nothing. The fact you say I did, really compromises your post. Also, the fact you focus on POC "vilification" of Whites and not a rise of vilification in POC by Whites shows a troubling bias in your post. Lord knows, Whites still greatly demonize or dehumanize POC.
I never said Whites were mostly racist, so your nauseating self-righteousness, and poor reading, shows again. So, I have no more time for your erroneous posts and your troubling views clearly simmering beneath. I will not read or respond to any more of your posts.
I never called you a White supremacist; so you need to improve your reading, too. It's clear the one who was wasting their time was me with you...:)
And the fact we're discussing the enslavement of millions of Blacks in America, and you bring up the comparatively miniscule amount of White slaves says a lot about your priorities
I will acknowledge that he (she?) made a few interesting and valid points in previous posts, but it's best the conversation ended quickly with our petty digs at each other.
That Thanatos would assume that I was ONLY referring to anti-white rhetoric in what I wrote, and 'clearly' so, simply because I interpreted what he said in previous posts as evidence of demonization in general, is IMO crazy. Literally. Here's what I said:
Quoting Erik
The topic that interested me was whether racial animus--which I pointed out involved 'both' sides--is increasing or decreasing at present. I even said on a couple occasions that I hope he was right in his estimation that it was decreasing. These and other conciliatory comments were conveniently ignored, as were others such as this:
Quoting Erik
Thoughts such as these (in hindsight somewhat trite, but written in a spirit of sincerity) are, according to the superior wisdom of Thanatos, indicative of my 'troubling views clearly simmering beneath.'
Anyhow that's it for me. Just wanted to expose him for making wild assumptions based upon certain things I said (and didn't say) which he felt implied other, predictably more nefarious things. What's even more upsetting is that he had the nerve to hide behind the 'I never said that' routine when things he IMO clearly implied (e.g. that Efram was a white supremacist) were mentioned.
I didn't say that. I don't mean that either. All I'm asking for is the possibility that such a black man/woman may exist. The story I weaved was intended only to provide some background on what I was aiming at. Perhaps its was sloppily written and thought. Sorry.
My question is:
Does a black man who's a white supremacist exist? What can we know if such a man/woman exists?
To support the question's validity rememeber the movie Django in which there's a slave (Samuel L Jackson) who loves his white master (Leornado di Caprio). It's fiction but it asks the same question.
Can you please read this
So, you do agree that it's possible for a black person to be a white supremacist. Where is this person? Given the harsh reactions re racial supremacy of any kind, is s/he hiding? Also, how does such a person's worldview adhere to reality? How does s/he the contradiction entailed by such a sentiment viz. being black and wanting equality and being a white supremacist and wanting the contrary?
Yes I agree. There are different shades of meaning and interpretation to the question. Thanks.
However, I'm looking for a black person who's a white supremacist. Either s/he exists or not.
If s/he exists how does s/he deal with the obvious contradiction of such a worldview?
If s/he doesn't exist, why? As you mentioned in your post there are so many hues to race and culture. Surely, in this smorgasbord of possibilities there must be such a person.
Thanks for your post. So, there are black people who, at a very minimum, want to be white. How do they resolve the contradiction in their worldview?
Yes. We're all the same species. Biologically, we all have the same stuff. There are differences though and these are held to be significant by all parties
See here
So, my concern is how does the black person who's a white supremacist make sense of it all. It's a veritable contradiction.
Like others, I think I'm having a hard time understanding your question, MadFool. Speaking for myself, I find the notion of white supremacy to be extremely confused. It would obviously involve the belief that white people are superior to non-whites in some way(s). But what would these be?
The very notion of 'whiteness'--which seems so obvious before thinking it through--appears to be a vague and largely artificial concept, which upon further reflection typically leads to more confusion than clarity.
Is whiteness strictly biological? Or, as I conjectured previously, is it more indicative of specific cultural traits? Something like a European civilization which combines elements of ancient Greek philosophy, Judeo-Christian religion, modern science and rationality, etc? Is that what we're referring to when we speak of whiteness? If so that's problematic too, once we consider that the tradition is not a unified and completed whole, but one that's fluid, contradictory, and exhibiting influences (e.g. Christianity) that clearly did not originate with Europeans.
So in the end there's no stable 'white' identity to be found--on any grounds--and therefore the notion of white supremacy doesn't make much sense. Any general notion of whiteness must ignore massive differences in terms of language, culture, region, history, religion, occupation, education, socio-economic status, and many, many other things.
Same goes for the notion of blackness, although a sense of shared identity based upon a common struggle against oppression could ground that racial identity in ways not normally available to white people. Just seems like one aspect of our being is highlighted and elevated to a place of prominence that it may not deserve. That being said, these abstractions have had concrete consequences on peoples' lives, and in that sense have become a part of our shared reality.
But as a white guy from southern California, do I have more in common with a black person who lives nearby and works with me, or a white person from, say, the Deep South who inhabits a world vastly different from mine?
And your example of Django may not be the best one to use, although I'll admit I'm going off your brief description of the relationship between two characters and haven't seen the movie. Does the black slave love his white master as an individual man he's grown close to on a personal level? or rather as a man qua member of a race he perceives to be superior?
Whatever the case, it would appear that the hypothetical black person you're looking for would have to first essentialize whiteness and blackness--in ways that probably won't stand up to scrutiny--before moving on to posit the superiority of the one over the other. He can't identify with the master on biological grounds so there must be something else going on.
Again, I think the only realistic possibility of resolving the contradictory worldview would be to separate the biological from the metaphysical. The 'black white supremacist' could look at his racial makeup as being of little significance, while freely choosing to identify with what he finds to be a superior culture that he associates with people whose skin color normally (but not necessarily) happens to be white. In other words, his identity is grounded in culture rather than race.
In the end it all seems a bit arbitrary and confused. People can and do concoct strange reasons to believe strange things. I'm surely not impervious to this tendency, as much as I'd like to believe otherwise.
But please provide more detailed info regarding what you think whiteness entails, and the possible reasons you could imagine a black person would have for identifying with whites who oppress him and others of similar racial background. Perhaps you have something in mind much simpler than the muddled mess I just created?
You absolutely did say that in your post below:
If you didn't mean that, you need to define what you mean by "black man who's a white supremacist"
Sorry. It does read like that. But did you read unenlightened's post? Here it is
You see?
What are your comments about unenlightened's post?
Please read unenlightened's post (above).
It captures the essence of what I mean. You seem to be unable to see the difference between white and black people, although, you do mention the ''struggle against oppression'' that, in a way, unifies black people. Look at the flip side - Nazi Germany. It was based on racial superiority of the Aryan race. Can you find the difference between Black and White somewhere between Nazism and slavery?
Anyway, drawing from unenlightened's post, I think it's reasonable to posit the existence of a black white supremacist. I want to know how s/he deals with the contradiction of being black, wanting equality and endorsing the superiority of the white race.
Of course it reads that way, and your failure to show how it doesn't after I showed it does helps prove it. The fact you continue to fail to actually define what you mean by "black man whos a white supremacist" helps prove I'm right.
So, since you're just repeating your erroneous, unfounded claims, we're done. I won't be reading or responding to any more of your posts.