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Meaning Paradox

TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 04:15 13050 views 60 comments
To the extent I'm aware, Philosophy is acutely concerned about meaning. Without definitions being crisp and clear progress in thought would be impossible. One could say that a major setback in some philosophical branches is the lack of good definitions.

It's advised that defining, giving meaning to words, follow some accepted guidelines, some of which are:

1. Focus on the essentials
2. Be clear - avoid ambiguity, vagueness, metaphor, obscurity
3. Don't define in negatives when it's possible to be positive
4. Don't make definitions too broad or too narrow
5. Avoid circularity

Given we have to meet the criteria of a good definition above,

What is the definition of ''definition''? Or
What is the meaning of ''meaning''?

I'm no linguist but the question seems problematic, since any attempt to define ''definition'' violates criteria 4 i.e. avoid circularity.

How does philosophy solve this problem?

This is a paradox because we have to know the meaning of ''meaning'' before we can assign it meaning.

Comments (60)

A Son of Rosenthal July 17, 2017 at 04:33 #87595
'Meaning' is defined as sense of linguistic expressions. 'Definition' is defined as a sentence giving a meaning to linguistic expressions.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 05:14 #87599
Reply to A Son of Rosenthal But that's a circular definition: ''sense'' and ''meaning'' are defined in terms of, well, meaning.
A Son of Rosenthal July 17, 2017 at 05:20 #87600
The meaning of 'all dogs are animals' is 'for every x, if x is a dog, then x is an animal.' The meaning of 'meaning' is 'sense of linguistic expressions'. I see no circularity here.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 05:27 #87602
Reply to A Son of Rosenthal What is the meaning of the word ''sense''?
A Son of Rosenthal July 17, 2017 at 05:47 #87604
The meaning of the word 'sense' is 'intension of linguistic expressions'. The meaning of the word 'intension' is 'what linguistic expressions mean'.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 05:53 #87606
A Son of Rosenthal July 17, 2017 at 06:04 #87608
It seems to be circular, but there's no trouble here. The form of 'definition of x' or 'meaning of x' is perfectly rational. We should distinguish definition from 'definition' (or meaning from 'meaning'). Definition is in the form 'definition of x' and 'definition' is the value of x in the form 'definition of x' (also the same as meaning and 'meaning').

TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 06:14 #87610
Reply to A Son of Rosenthal

1. While defining a word we use the structure ''x means y'' where x is the definiendum and y is the definiens

2. To understand 1, we have to know the meaning of ''means''.

3. So, as per the structure given in 1, we have to say: ''means'' means ''

3 is obviously impossible because we're using a word, ''means'', without knowing its meaning.
A Son of Rosenthal July 17, 2017 at 06:22 #87611
There are lots of research results about 'means' in philosophical history. For example, Davidson interprets 'means' as 'is true'. So, Davidson suggests that 's means p' should be understood as 's is true if and only if p'. There are various attempts.
In your case, 'means' is a predicate. It's like other general predicates such as 'walk', 'have', 'hit', and so on. 'x means y' can be understood as ''x means y' is a two-place predicates'. Or 'x and y are in relation of 'means''. If you don't have a problem of 'x hits y', then you can accept easily 'x means y'.

Gooseone July 17, 2017 at 06:40 #87612
Quoting TheMadFool
This is a paradox because we have to know the meaning of ''meaning'' before we can assign it meaning.


You have to know what knowing is first.

Quoting TheMadFool
5. Avoid circularity


TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 07:29 #87614
Reply to Gooseone Yes, however, I can only know what knowing means if I know what ''mean'' means.
Streetlight July 17, 2017 at 07:30 #87615
As if meaning is a purely epistemic issue...
Gooseone July 17, 2017 at 07:35 #87617
Reply to TheMadFool

How do you know that?
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 07:43 #87618
Reply to GooseoneBy not knowing the meaning of ''meaning'' I don't know what either ''know'' or ''mean'' means:P
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 07:43 #87619
Reply to StreetlightX Clarify please
Gooseone July 17, 2017 at 07:53 #87622
Reply to TheMadFool

Hej! No circularity! ;)
Gooseone July 17, 2017 at 08:06 #87623
But srsly, isn't knowing a bit like being able to value sensory inputs as functional information?
(I'm aware I'm already presupposing on a lot of metaphysical issues here, I'll consider myself a pragmatist)

So to know what something means is to know what something is about.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 08:08 #87624
Reply to GooseoneReply to A Son of RosenthalReply to StreetlightX

Here's what I think.

I don't know the history of language and how it evolved but to make an educated guess...

I think language evolved in very basic terms and that, to me, means giving names to physical objects like water, wind, sun, etc. In this basic sense of ''meaning'' is the idea of equality. People were simply ''naming'' things. From there, we can take a step forward and say ''definitions'' are, in essence, naming albeit in a sophisticated manner.

What say you?
Streetlight July 17, 2017 at 08:09 #87625
No.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 08:11 #87626
Reply to StreetlightX :(

What's your theory then?
A Son of Rosenthal July 17, 2017 at 08:47 #87629
Meaning is not equality. According to your theory, meaning is a kind of naming things, but it is not the case that naming things itself is equality. According to many others, meaning is not the same as equality.
Streetlight July 17, 2017 at 08:51 #87630
Consider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_act
Michael July 17, 2017 at 09:03 #87633
Quoting TheMadFool
This is a paradox because we have to know the meaning of ''meaning'' before we can assign it meaning.


How is it a paradox? Even though our attempts to describe the meaning of "meaning" may be circular, this isn't how we first learn a language. Definitions only work if we already know the meaning of certain words, and so we must learn the meaning of these initial words another way.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 09:12 #87636
Reply to A Son of Rosenthal In my defense...

[B]X means Y[/b] establishes an equality for the simple reason that, in a sentence, substituting one word with its definition shouldn't change the meaning of the sentence e.g.

1) There was ice on the road

2) There was frozen water on the road

So, definition is a means of stipulating an equality between words/phrases. This is what I mean.

In this reading we can make sense of ''means'' as establishing/attempting to establish an equality.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 09:14 #87637
Quoting Michael
How is it a paradox? Even though our attempts to describe the meaning of "meaning" may be circular, this isn't how we first learn a language. Definitions only work if we already know the meaning of certain words, and so we must learn the meaning of these initial words another way


To know the meaning of any word, first we must know the meaning of ''meaning'' and that can't be done without resorting to a circular definition. Try it:

The meaning of ''meaning'' is .
Michael July 17, 2017 at 09:29 #87638
Quoting TheMadFool
To know the meaning of any word, first we must know the meaning of ''meaning'' and that can't be done without resorting to a circular definition. Try it:

The meaning of ''meaning'' is .


Did you even read what I wrote? I'll repeat it for you:

Even though our attempts to describe the meaning of "meaning" may be circular, this isn't how we first learn a language. Definitions only work if we already know the meaning of certain words, and so we must learn the meaning of these initial words another way.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 09:36 #87639
Reply to StreetlightX I read the link. It describes how language functions but it doesn't really explain/solve the issue I raised
Streetlight July 17, 2017 at 09:37 #87640
The problem you posed isn't one.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 09:41 #87641
Reply to Michael Yes, if you read my discussion with other posters, I have described a simple process by which we gain understanding of what ''mean'' means.

I'm no linguist but allow me to hazard a guess...

It all began with naming physical objects, e.g. the sound wa-ter is the name of the stuff one drinks, etc. In naming we draw an equality between the sound/word and the object it refers to. Therefrom it's relatively easy to understand the meaning of ''meaning''. It's simply an equivalence and we may say, when defining, such and such is such and such.
A Son of Rosenthal July 17, 2017 at 09:44 #87642
What you defend is merely synonymity. Synonymity is the sameness between expressions. However, meaning is not explained in that way. Meaning is broader than synonymity. Synonymity is one among which meaning includes.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 09:44 #87643
Quoting StreetlightX
The problem you pose isn't one.


Ok. Do you agree that ''means'' is an equality claim, as in x means y can also be expressed as x = y. Is meaning just another way of naming?
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 09:46 #87644
Reply to A Son of Rosenthal Synonym is a word/phrase with the same meaning as the word in question. So, it's the same thing - definition, synonym, all the same.
Streetlight July 17, 2017 at 09:55 #87646
Reply to TheMadFool No. Meaning is not an equality claim. Meanings are not even claims at all. Hence the link.
A Son of Rosenthal July 17, 2017 at 09:55 #87647
Synonyms are the same expressions between linguistic expressions. Definitions are sentences that give meanings to linguistic expressions. Can you see the difference?
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 11:15 #87653
Reply to A Son of Rosenthal Unless there's an equality there's no meaning.

God is defined as an omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent being.

1) Pray to God

2) Pray to the omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent being

Do you see any difference between 1 and 2?

No

That's because God = omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent being. See?

Also synonyms are definitions.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 11:17 #87654
Quoting StreetlightX
No. Meaning is not an equality claim. Meanings are not even claims at all. Hence the link


How so?

See here
Streetlight July 17, 2017 at 11:28 #87656
But meaning is not at all exhausted by definitions. In fact definitions ought to be perhaps the last thing one ought to consider when thinking about meaning at all, such is the awfulness of thinking of meaning in that way.
Rich July 17, 2017 at 12:05 #87662
Quoting TheMadFool
This is a paradox because we have to know the meaning of ''meaning'' before we can assign it meaning.


Accept that everything everything is in flux and that any symbolic meaning is a practical, albeit incomplete tool, for communication. It has limits and is bound to change. The paradox arises out if the neverending desire for truth where there isn't any.

A Son of Rosenthal July 17, 2017 at 12:23 #87668
Some expressions are meaningful without synonyms. The term 'dog' is meaningful even without synonyms. 'Dog' can be paraphrased by some expressions, such as 'quadrupedal pet animal' and so on. When without such paraphrasing, 'dog' is still meaningful.
Synonyms are defined as 'linguistic expressions defined as the same thing'. Definitions are defined as 'sentences that give meanings to linguistic expressions'. Some synonyms are established by definitions. However, definitions are not established by synonyms. They are two distinct concepts.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 12:25 #87669
Quoting StreetlightX
But meaning is not at all exhausted by definitions.


I see. I was using ''meaning'' and ''definition'' as synonyms. Apparently, there's a significant difference. Sorry for sending you offtrack. Anyway, learned something. Thanks.

Quoting Rich
The paradox arises out if the neverending desire for truth where there isn't any


Sounds Zen! Can you descend and answer the question at my level? Thanks
Rich July 17, 2017 at 12:33 #87670
Reply to TheMadFool Nothing zen about it. Meaning is just an arbitrary temporary description that is assigned subject to change. There is nothing permanent about it. Similarly, a definition it's some arbitrary symbolic representation that people happen to agree on (a consensus)-sometimes or most of the time.

When someone attempts to make such arbitrary descriptions universal and permanent, that when problems arise.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 12:35 #87671
Quoting A Son of Rosenthal
They are two distinct concepts.


What's your understanding of definition?
A Son of Rosenthal July 17, 2017 at 12:38 #87672
Again, definitions are sentences that give meanings to linguistic expressions. Definitions are what we use for meaning. So, definitions are not the same as meanings.
Vajk July 17, 2017 at 12:49 #87675
I don‘t know if the meaning of meaning is meaning, or not. Perhaps there is an other meaning, perhaps not! I don‘t know if the writings on this wall of the Cave are Sophisticated or not, do You?
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 12:51 #87676
Reply to Rich Without meaning being permanent, communication is impossible. As you correctly pointed, it needs consensus, and that's a way of making meaning permanent.

Anyway, I don't see how, in the world you describe, the paradox is solved. You still need to know the meaning of ''meaning''.
Rich July 17, 2017 at 12:59 #87679
Meaning is a continuous developing process that originates with some observations of some sort that create a qualitative memory within oneself. It is strictly experiential. The tricky part comes in conveying such qualitative memory (including feeling) to someone else. An agreed upon definition may ensue or they may be constant disagreements as with most things.

There is no paradox, just lots and lots disagreements.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 13:08 #87682
Reply to A Son of Rosenthal Sorry but if it's not too much trouble can you give me a synopsis of your understanding of definitions and how it addresses the paradox in my OP.

Reply to Rich Still, there are words which need to have a fixed meaning and ''meaning'' is one of them. So, the paradox of having to know the meaning of ''meaning'' before you can define is still unsolved.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 13:09 #87683
Quoting Vajk
I don‘t know if the meaning of meaning is meaning, or not. Perhaps there is an other meaning, perhaps not! I don‘t know if the writings on this wall of the Cave are Sophisticated or not, do you


Are you referring to the Plato's Cave? How does that affect the paradox of meaning?
Rich July 17, 2017 at 13:11 #87685
Quoting TheMadFool
Still, there are words which need to have a fixed meaning and ''meaning'' is one of them.


Possibly more fixed than others but almost all have multiple possibilities with new possibilities (slang terms) being created all the time. Impermanence.
Vajk July 17, 2017 at 14:01 #87693
Reply to TheMadFool
I don‘t know, perhaps if I could leave the cave, I‘ve could tell you. Oh wait that is impossible!
(Refering to Plato‘s Cave)
If you know how I mean.
Harry Hindu July 17, 2017 at 14:21 #87699
Quoting TheMadFool

What is the definition of ''definition''? Or
What is the meaning of ''meaning''?

Definitions are statements expressing the essential nature of something.

Meaning, according to Paul Grice, has two kinds - natural and non-natural. Natural meaning has to do with cause and effect (these spots mean measles), while the non-natural kind has to do with a speaker's intention in communicating something to a listener (What I mean to say is...).

Quoting StreetlightX
But meaning is not at all exhausted by definitions. In fact definitions ought to be perhaps the last thing one ought to consider when thinking about meaning at all, such is the awfulness of thinking of meaning in that way.
When I see a new word being used, I still don't get the meaning. I end up referencing the dictionary to know what the word means.
Streetlight July 17, 2017 at 14:40 #87703
Quoting Harry Hindu
When I see a new word being used, I still don't get the meaning. I end up referencing the dictionary to know what the word means.


Oh dear, it must be hard to have to live like that.
Harry Hindu July 17, 2017 at 14:52 #87709
Reply to StreetlightX Having no sea-coast, Bolivia has no seaport except what may be granted in usufruct by Chile.

What did I mean by "usufruct"? Did you already know what the word means (you've heard or seen it used before)? If so, I can probably find another that you have never heard used before in which you should know what it means simply by it's use.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 17:24 #87744
Quoting Vajk
Oh wait that is impossible!


I see. So, you think it's an impossible task to define ''meaning''. That means the paradox has no solution. Agree?

Reply to Harry Hindu (Y)
@StreetlightX(Y)

The paradox is still unsolved.
1) How do we define ''definition''?
2) What is the meaning of ''meaning''?

Any attempt to answer the above questions would proceed as follows:

1. The definition of ''definition'' is...
That's a circularity that generates a paradox: we have to define ''definition'' but to do so we need to know the definition of ''definition''.

2. The meaning of ''meaning'' is...
That too is circular and generates the paradox of having to know the meaning of ''meaning'' before we can assign it meaning.
Harry Hindu July 17, 2017 at 17:40 #87747
Quoting TheMadFool
1. The definition of ''definition'' is...
That's a circularity that generates a paradox: we have to define ''definition'' but to do so we need to know the definition of ''definition''.

2. The meaning of ''meaning'' is...
That too is circular and generates the paradox of having to know the meaning of ''meaning'' before we can assign it meaning.

I just don't see a paradox. I just provided the definition of "definition", without using the word, "definition" in the definition.
TheMadFool July 17, 2017 at 17:55 #87751
Quoting Harry Hindu
Definitions are statements expressing the essential nature of something.


I like that definition. Thanks(Y)
Vajk July 17, 2017 at 18:14 #87762
Reply to TheMadFool
No, not realy.
I writed that it is impossible for me to leave Plato‘s Cave, because I have never been there.( I know I did not defined it in my previous comment, but I did it now)
It is also impossible for You to leave the cave because You are in its deepest room trying to figure out the meaning of the shadows.
Rich July 17, 2017 at 21:24 #87773
Reply to TheMadFool Quoting TheMadFool
Without meaning being permanent, communication is impossible. As you correctly pointed, it needs consensus, and that's a way of making meaning permanent.


Notice how meaning is so elusive on this forum (even for simple things like what is meaning?) and how difficult it is to communicate - but we do the best we can.

[Quote]Anyway, I don't see how, in the world you describe, the paradox is solved. You still need to know the meaning of ''meaning''.[/quote]

The paradox isn't solved because there isn't any, unless one subscribes to the concept of fixed meaning that somehow has to be discovered. Giving meaning is a process of observation and feeling, and it is constantly changing. Then there is the process of trying to convey that meaning, at which time definitions are handy but still fluid.
andrewk July 17, 2017 at 22:32 #87779
Reply to TheMadFool Like many words, 'meaning' is a word that means different things in different contexts. Examples are:

'What do you mean?', in response to a statement that appeared to be a request or instruction, means 'I don't understand what you want me to do. Can you please explain more clearly?'

On the other hand, in response to a statement that sounded like a proposition, made in a discussion or argument, it means something like
'I didn't understand that point you just made. Can you please rephrase it to make it more likely that I can understand it?'

Then there's one of my favourites:
'I mean ....'
which means - 'I'm not confident that what I just said was intellligible, so I'll try to rephrase it to see if I can make it any more intelligible'.

In short, words don't usually have meaning. It is sentences that have meaning. And sometimes even a sentence isn't enough. One needs a whole paragraph to acquire a meaning.

The German-English dictionary that's loaded on my Kindle is very good like that. For most words it doesn't even attempt to define them in isolation. Rather, it gives several different sentences showing the different ways it can be used, and explains the meaning of each sentence.
TheMadFool July 18, 2017 at 08:24 #87853
Reply to andrewk Thanks for the clarification. I was more interested in the very basic definition of ''definition''. I thought there was a circularity in trying to define ''definition''. Sloppy work. Sorry.