Who had the best society and culture?

Celtic is definitely up there for me - being a Celt lmao. I should say, I don't think any prior society really gets in here. They all failed to take account of anything but their in-built belief systems and so we're restricted from true progress. I think that may be why most ended up conquered.

Other than Celtic, I think Rosicrucian society was pretty damn cool: invisible fraternity, scientific enquiry (albeit, hampered by Christian mysticism) - essentially a Christian-flavoured Enlightenment. Unfortunately, it is debated whether or not it existed hahaha.

Further, the Cathars: pushes toward vegetarianism, pretty much Gender equal, still mystic.

I would also say, if we can pinpoint certain groups which were not overtly patriarchal or war-like, some of hte Native American groups were extremely well-suited to their time and place and i imagine had things fairly right, in that context.

Quoting AmadeusD

being a Celt lmao.

We traveled to Ireland this past autumn, and thoroughly enjoyed it. What a captivating country.

A book you might enjoy -

How the Irish Saved Civilization: The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe - by Thomas Cahill

That's the book that first introduced me to Queen Medb - and her words of 2,000 years ago -

The royal bed is laid, and two large figures are reclining there, conversing playfully amid the pillows, as might any man and woman when day is done. Ailil, the king, is musing:

[i]"It is true what they say, love: it is well for the wife of a wealthy man."

"True enough," replies Medb, the queen. "What put that in your mind?

'It struck me how much better off you are today than the day I married you."

"I was well enough without you."

Stung, Medb goes on -

"I outdid them (her sisters) in grace and giving and battle and warlike combat. I had fifteen hundred soldiers in my royal pay, all exiles' sons, and the numbers of freeborn native men, and for every paid soldier I had ten more men, and nine more, and eight, and seven, and six, and five, and four, and three, and two, and one. And that was only our ordinary household ... My father gave me a whole province of Ireland, this province, ruled from Cruachan, which is why I am called 'Medb of Cruachan.' ... And I wouldn't go. For I asked a harder wedding gift than any woman ever asked before from a man in Ireland - the absence of meanness and jealousy and fear ... When we were promised, I brought you the best wedding gift a bride can bring: apparel enough for a dozen men, a chariot worth thrice seven bondmaids, the width of your face of red gold and the weight of your left arm of light gold. So, if anyone causes you shame or upset or trouble, the right to compensation is mine, for you're a kept man."[/i]

(Cahill, page 71-2)

The image of Medb is so much different than the image of women painted by the Western tradition!

Anyway, it all led to cattle inventory, and Medb's raid.


Quoting AmadeusD

Rosicrucian

Thank you for introducing me to them. I went to their website, and read their "Code of Life" -

https://www.rosicrucian.org/rosicrucian-code-of-life

It's a society that calls Scientific Pantheism to mind.

Quoting AmadeusD

Cathars

Interesting - two creator deities - spiritual/physical ... made me think of ying and yang

Quoting AmadeusD

not overtly patriarchal

it was eye-opening for me to read about the sacred place women held in Haudenosaunee society, and in ancient Celtic culture, too. A book I really enjoyed is If Women Rose Rooted, by Dr. Sharon Blackie - which introduced me to many of the mystical women from ancient Celtic culture.

Reply to Questioner Nice - it is an extremely beautiful country with a rich history.

Unfortunately, I've seen some decent criticism of Cahill which turned me off him. He seems to derive a lot of motivation from theologico-historical commitment. You may not be aware, but Medh (or, Méabh) is not considered an historical figure, but a mythical one. Cahill simply interpolates things like Táin Bó Cúailnge and then goes forth. Likewise... Blackie I, personally, think isn't worth her paper. "mystic" is generally not going to be up my alley. I prefer historical accounts, myself.

Reply to AmadeusD

Thanks for the insights

Reply to AmadeusD

Oh yes, I knew Medb was mythological, but still think she reveals a lot about that society

Reply to Questioner Fair enough man - it's all super interesting stuff regardless of veracity (well, at least accuracy - obviously these are real myths!).

Quoting AmadeusD

Fair enough man - it's all super interesting stuff regardless of veracity (well, at least accuracy - obviously these are real myths!).

Actually, I'm a woman :)

I think there is a lot of truth in mythology - a lot to be revealed about human nature.

For millennia - all we had was the oral history - and humans are born storytellers

What did they tell stories about? What was important to them.

Like we still do now.

Reply to Questioner "Man" is used here as a catch all - woman also contains it. Thanks for te clarification, either wya.

That's semi-fair, but I don't think that's a particularly rational way of approaching history. Not to say there's nothing in it - but it does, in this way, get extremely close to the bad parts of Peterson's thinking :P

Quoting Questioner

What did they tell stories about? What was important to them.

Like we still do now.

I don't think this is fair, in any aspect. They told what they thought were truths, borne of falsities. We try our best not to, or at least say when that's happening. That' said, plenty of people think myths are serious re-tellings. Fairly religious thinking.

Quoting AmadeusD

They told what they thought were truths, borne of falsities

You mean fiction? Fiction can contain a lot of truths

Reply to Questioner No, i mean quite explicitly falsities.

I understand the pull to dress the past up with a bit more aplomb than it actually contained - ancient people's believed ridiculous shit. And fair enough. But they wrote this down as if it were the case. That is false.

I understand the same stories to be taken as fictional now though - and in that, i agree! Stories are a great way to press on important thoughts. But it is highly, highly unlikely we're getting anything particularly historically interesting, other than the (incredibly important) aspect of discussing why/how/when those thoughts were held to be true.

Reply to AmadeusD

My attraction to ancient mythologies lies in the fact that it connects me to the people who originally wrote the stories, and therefore connects me to a part of humanity that is not me. The fact that I can relate to what they wrote makes me feel like a part of something that is much bigger than me.

For example, reading the description of Cúchulainn's "warp spasm" in battle (copied below) connects me to a people who lived long ago. Is it an accurate depiction? Of course not, but its fierceness and its exquisite imagery connects me the sensibilities of another section of humanity, makes them come alive. And of course, this is what all good art does - makes the receiver of the art feel what the artist felt.

“The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins and knees switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front. The balled sinews of his calves switched to the front of his shins, each big knot the size of a warrior’s bunched fist. On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child. His face and features became a red bowl: he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn’t probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram’s fleece reached his mouth from his throat.”

? Thomas Kinsella, The Táin: From the Irish epic Táin Bó Cuailnge

Quoting Questioner

Is it an accurate depiction? Of course not, but its fierceness and its exquisite imagery connects me the sensibilities of another section of humanity, makes them come alive. And of course, this is what all good art does - makes the receiver of the art feel what the artist felt.

It is certainly true that Art does that.

I think mixing historical interest with Art, without delineating adequately isn't great. Myth-making seems to be a semi-delusional state of being. Not you, enjoying it. But that process is one which obscures the reality and may present a false impression of those people. In fact, given that history is written, rewritten, and often a victor of some kind - that seems unavoidable. But yeah, as a curiosity myth and legend are ace.

Thanks for elucidating!

Quoting AmadeusD

Myth-making seems to be a semi-delusional state of being.

Just wondering - have you ever written any fiction - like a story?

Reply to Questioner Yes ma'am, years ago. More poetry/lyrics since then (to the present day) but certainly a few short stories and what not previously when I was younger and had a more whimsical outlook on things.

Quoting AmadeusD

and had a more whimsical outlook on things.

Oh dear, sorry to hear if you have become jaded!

Reply to Questioner Not jaded at all. I just live in the real world now. I am a very happy, spiritual person. I would refrain from such assumptions.

Quoting AmadeusD

I would refrain from such assumptions.

I apologize

Reply to Questioner No real need - not offended. Just figure if we're to get on better than we have previously this would be good :)

Something I'll throw out: I spent about 11 years deeply interested in, and in the study of, Amazonian tribal myth making. I was my country's foremost expect on their Shamanism and related anthropologic considerations. All is not lost on me my friend :)

Quoting AmadeusD

Just figure if we're to get on better than we have previously this would be good

very good! (But I did not notice that we weren't getting on...)

Quoting AmadeusD

Amazonian tribal myth

interesting! I'm going to find out more. I like this one -

The Curupira, Currupira or Korupira (Portuguese pronunciation: [ku?u?pi??]) is a forest spirit in the myth of the Tupí-Guaraní speaking areas in the Brazilian and Paraguaian Amazon and Guyanas. It is a guardian of the rainforest that punishes humans for overcutting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curupira

You've given me some inspiration for a story. Thank you!

Reply to Questioner Excellent :)

I was referring the couple of trans threads we were exchanging on. All is well :)

So, here is a quick list of commonalities between all human societies.

We all evolved these capabilities, but took them in different directions!

language
abstraction and beliefs
notions of good and bad
metaphors and figurative speech
symbolism
story-telling
politics
family