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One italicized word

Srap Tasmaner July 02, 2017 at 05:58 12275 views 53 comments
Here's Frege:

The same sense is not always connected, even in the same man, with the same idea. The idea is subjective; one man's idea is not that of another. [...] This constitutes an essential distinction between the idea and the sign's sense, which may be the common property of many people, and so is not a part or a mode of an individual mind. For one can hardly deny that mankind has a common store of thoughts which is transmitted from one generation to another.

In light of this, one need have no scruples in speaking simply of the sense, whereas in the case of an idea one must, strictly speaking add whom it belongs to and at what time.


That's from "On Sense and Reference," and the emphasis on "the" is Frege's. Such passages are everywhere; here's one from "Thought":

If other people can assent to the thought I express in the Pythagorean theorem just as I do, then it does not belong to the content of my consciousness, I am not its owner; yet I can, nevertheless, acknowledge it as true. However if what is taken to be the content of the Pythagorean theorem by me and by somebody else is not the same thought at all, we should not really say 'the Pythagorean theorem', but 'my Pythagorean theorem', 'his Pythagorean theorem', and these would be different, for the sense must go with the sentence.


Again, all emphasis Frege's.

I find this to be pretty convincing stuff. Whatever else you want to say about it, this is what logic seems to require, much like the distinction between object and concept.

But now here's Grice from "Meaning Revisited", emphasis his:

First, the operation of such creatures as I have been talking about is at least in certain circumstances going to be helped and furthered if there is what one might think of as shared experience. In particular, if psychological states which initially attach to one creature can be transmitted or transferred or reproduced in another creature (a process which might be called ?-transmission), that would be advantageous. Obviously, the production of communication devices is a resource which will help to effect such transfers.

If one accepts this idea, then one could simply accept that for the process to be intelligible, understandable, there will have to be correspondences between particular communication devices on the one hand, and psychological states on the other. [...] Whether direct or indirect, the correspondences would be between utterances or utterance-types on the one hand, and types of psychological states on the other, where these would include, for example, the belief-types to which the beliefs of particular people belong: not Jones's belief that such-and-such, but a belief that such-and-such.


Look at that: "a" not "the".

I have loads to say about that one suggestive little change to Frege's account, but I'm curious to see what other people think first.

Comments (53)

Wayfarer July 02, 2017 at 07:40 #82906
If other people can assent to the thought I express in the Pythagorean theorem just as I do, then it does not belong to the content of my consciousness, I am not its owner; yet I can, nevertheless, acknowledge it as true.


If it is the same for anyone who can understand it then it is common to all who think. What I think is interesting, is that it is both true, and also ideal, as are a great many mathematical and geometric ideas. That is, they're common to all who can grasp them, but they can only be grasped by a rational mind. So in that sense their reality is intelligible rather than corporeal - which is rather similar to the outlook of objective idealism. (See for a discussion of 'intelligible objects' this passage on Augustine on Intelligible Objects.)

Compare this passage from Ed Feser:

Consider that when you think about triangularity, as you might when proving a geometrical theorem, it is necessarily perfect triangularity that you are contemplating, not some mere approximation of it. Triangularity as your intellect grasps it is entirely determinate or exact; for example, what you grasp is the notion of a closed plane figure with three perfectly straight sides, rather than that of something which may or may not have straight sides or which may or may not be closed. Of course, your mental image of a triangle might not be exact, but rather indeterminate and fuzzy. But to grasp something with the intellect is not the same as to form a mental image of it. For any mental image of a triangle is necessarily going to be of an isosceles triangle specifically, or of a scalene one, or an equilateral one; but the concept of triangularity that your intellect grasps applies to all triangles alike. Any mental image of a triangle is going to have certain features, such as a particular color, that are no part of the concept of triangularity in general. A mental image is something private and subjective, while the concept of triangularity is objective and grasped by many minds at once.


Some Brief Arguments for Dualism

As for Grice - isn't his argument a form of psychologism? He is attempting to provide an account which rests on so called 'psychological states', whereby such states then underwrite or form the basis of ideas, as such. Which, I suspect, is ultimately in the service of some form on naturalism, although it's hard to say on the basis of the above.
Srap Tasmaner July 02, 2017 at 17:18 #82988
Quoting Wayfarer
As for Grice - isn't his argument a form of psychologism?


Maybe? But the main problem with psychologism is just that Frege has such a strong argument against it.

Compare the example of phonemes (or cheremes) which are explicitly defined as equivalence classes of sounds (or gestures). You could think of propositions, for instance, as equivalence classes of utterances, thus utterance-types, and thoughts as equivalence classes of psychological states, e.g. belief-types.

One question is, how do you get these equivalence classes rolling? What is required to be able to take something as a member of a class, or as a token of a type?

But where we want to start is the observation that, in uttering an allophone (within my speech community) for /a/, you are taken to have uttered the phoneme /a/. It might be helpful to put off the question of universals for a little while and look at how that transaction works.
mcdoodle July 02, 2017 at 17:21 #82990
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
I have loads to say about that one suggestive little change to Frege's account, but I'm curious to see what other people think first.


I haven't quite grasped the distinction yet. Grice speaks of 'the belief-types' and 'the beliefs of particular peoples'. Isn't that use of 'the' the equivalent in his nomenclature to Frege's 'the sense'?

Srap Tasmaner July 02, 2017 at 17:26 #82992
Quoting mcdoodle
Grice speaks of 'the belief-types' and 'the beliefs of particular peoples'. Isn't that use of 'the' the equivalent in his nomenclature to Frege's 'the sense'?


Maybe? But why go through the type business at all? Why not just say, as Frege does, that we each have the belief that such-and-such?
Terrapin Station July 02, 2017 at 18:08 #83000
For one can hardly deny that mankind has a common store of thoughts which is transmitted from one generation to another.


Oh, it's not that difficult to deny that.
Srap Tasmaner July 02, 2017 at 19:48 #83027
Quoting Terrapin Station
Oh, it's not that difficult to deny that.


I'll bite, against my better judgement...

Whether it's difficult remains to be seen. It's clear enough what Frege gains by not denying it; what do you gain by denying it?
Terrapin Station July 02, 2017 at 21:07 #83043
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
Whether it's difficult remains to be seen. It's clear enough what Frege gains by not denying it; what do you gain by denying it?


What you gain is that you say something that's true rather than something one would simply like to be true. ;-)
Srap Tasmaner July 02, 2017 at 22:18 #83064
Quoting Terrapin Station
What you gain is that you say something that's true rather than something one would simply like to be true.


"What you gain is that you say something that's true to you rather than something one would simply like to be true to one."

Fixed that for you.
Terrapin Station July 02, 2017 at 22:23 #83066
Reply to Srap Tasmaner

That goes without saying. Of course, the reason it's true is that in my judgment, the proposition matches facts.
Srap Tasmaner July 02, 2017 at 22:26 #83068
Reply to Terrapin Station Your truth is of no consequence for me.
Terrapin Station July 02, 2017 at 22:31 #83070
Reply to Srap Tasmaner

Then why ask me in the first place?

Just stick with inquiries directed at folks whose judgment you're interested in.
Srap Tasmaner July 02, 2017 at 22:48 #83074
Reply to Terrapin Station
You misunderstand. I was not insulting or dismissing you.

On your own view, you cannot tell me the truth, only your truth. No matter what I claim, my truth cannot contradict your truth. (Something happens in my brain; something happens in your brain. Period.) It is in that sense that your truth is and can be of no consequence for me. Even if you wanted to provide an argument for why I should take your truth into account, how would you proceed? We are incapable of both assenting to the same premise.
Terrapin Station July 02, 2017 at 23:08 #83076
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
On your own view, you cannot tell me the truth, only your truth. No matter what I claim, my truth cannot contradict your truth. (Something happens in my brain; something happens in your brain. Period.) It is in that sense that your truth is and can be of no consequence for me. Even if you wanted to provide an argument for why I should take your truth into account, how would you proceed? We are incapable of both assenting to the same premise.


All that anyone can tell you is propositions that match facts in their judgment. And that's what I did. We can and certainly do have different judgments, and we can't somehow get beyond the fact that we're making judgments about how propositions link up with facts. Propositions can't somehow match up with facts or not independent of us. Meaning is something that we do as individuals. Objectively, the sentences that we count as propositions are just text marks or sounds.

You could only care about your own judgments about the relationship of propositions and facts, but that's probably not the case since you're participating on a message board like this.
Mongrel July 02, 2017 at 23:37 #83081
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
I have loads to say about that one suggestive little change to Frege's account, but I'm curious to see what other people think first.


My mind was blown the first time I came across a person who even considered the notion that an idea might be somehow owned by the stuff in an individual's skull. And Frege was part of the discussion... it was about abstract objects like numbers.

How would Frege's view fit with a platonic account?
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 00:53 #83091
Quoting Mongrel
My mind was blown the first time I came across a person who even considered the notion that an idea might be somehow owned by the stuff in an individual's skull. And Frege was part of the discussion... it was about abstract objects like numbers.

How would Frege's view fit with a platonic account?


Leaving aside whatever there's room to debate, Frege's a pretty thorough platonist.

The owning ideas thing he explains with a telescope: there's the actual object out there it's pointed at, say the Moon -- this will be the reference -- then there's the image on the mirror, which is not the object but is still objective -- that's the sense or the thought -- and then there's the retinal images of whatever individuals look through the telescope, which are subjective and unshareable, and that's what Frege calls ideas.
Mongrel July 03, 2017 at 01:28 #83102
Reply to Srap Tasmaner I didn't realize he was a thorough platonist. So you are as well? The image on the mirror is the sharable sense?

I was thinking about meaning today. I have a problem with the concept of a sign. It's supposed to be a signifier/signified combo. I don't think an isolated sign has any meaning, though. I think it has to appear in a complete thought (a complete sentence?) in order to be meaningful. Could be off topic?
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 02:38 #83106
Quoting Terrapin Station
All that anyone can tell you is propositions that match facts in their judgment. And that's what I did. We can and certainly do have different judgments, and we can't somehow get beyond the fact that we're making judgments about how propositions link up with facts. Propositions can't somehow match up with facts or not independent of us. Meaning is something that we do as individuals. Objectively, the sentences that we count as propositions are just text marks or sounds.


Scenario (1): A and B have a box of propositions, and they each have opinions about which ones are true. They take turns sorting them into boxes marked "true," "false," and "not sure." Maybe neither of them have some special status that allows them to know what is true, but they can at least see the different ways they sort the propositions. A might be surprised to see B put something in the "true" box that he wouldn't, but B might convince A that he should, because of some others he put in.

Scenario (2): A has his own box of propositions and B has his own box. They might as well sort at the same time, without paying any attention to each other, and they can even share the boxes they sort into. Doesn't matter. What difference could it make to A what B does with his box of propositions?

I took you, perhaps mistakenly, as going for scenario 2, rather than scenario 1.

A third scenario you may find more congenial is suggested to me by Grice's talk of types.

Scenario (3): It's more like kids each sorting their own collections of baseball cards. They can each have a copy of the same card-- not numerically the same, but same player, year, series-- and they can have cards that they count as the same in different ways. "Do you have a Clayton Kershaw?" can be answered "yes" whichever one of the various Clayton Kershaws that have been issued you have.

Scenario 3 is more appealing than 1 in some obvious ways, so long as we can make the type stuff work.
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 02:43 #83108
Quoting Mongrel
I didn't realize he was a thorough platonist. So you are as well? The image on the mirror is the sharable sense?


That's the idea. It's not the object referred to but still objective.

I was thinking about meaning today. I have a problem with the concept of a sign. It's supposed to be a signifier/signified combo. I don't think an isolated sign has any meaning, though. I think it has to appear in a complete thought (a complete sentence?) in order to be meaningful. Could be off topic?


That would be a version of Frege's context principle. It can get a little weird.

Oh yeah--am I a platonist? Not by temperament. But I find it hard to talk about language, logic, and mathematics without drifting toward a Fregean sort of platonism. I'm not quite convinced that means you have to be what's usually called a platonist, but there's something there that has to be taken seriously.
Mongrel July 03, 2017 at 03:04 #83110
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
It's not the object referred to but still objective.


Objective? Third-person data as opposed to first-person data?

Quoting Srap Tasmaner
That would be a version of Frege's context principle. It can get a little weird.
Weird how?

Quoting Srap Tasmaner
but there's something there that has to be taken seriously.


I don't know if you've really taken it seriously unless you've pondered how it fits into the bigger picture.
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 04:09 #83124
Quoting Mongrel
It's not the object referred to but still objective.
— Srap Tasmaner

Objective? Third-person data as opposed to first-person data?


If by "third-person" you mean public, then I think yes.

That would be a version of Frege's context principle. It can get a little weird.
— Srap Tasmaner
Weird how?


There are various ways of formulating contextualism and some of them conflict with compositionality. I can't imagine giving up compositionality. I don't even know what the alternative would be.

but there's something there that has to be taken seriously.
— Srap Tasmaner

I don't know if you've really taken it seriously unless you've pondered how it fits into the bigger picture.


I'm not sure what this means.
Mongrel July 03, 2017 at 04:51 #83133
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
If by "third-person" you mean public, then I think yes.


Or maybe you meant mind-independent. The reflection of the moon in the mirror is there whether anybody's looking or not.

Quoting Srap Tasmaner
There are various ways of formulating contextualism and some of them conflict with compositionality. I can't imagine giving up compositionality. I don't even know what the alternative would be.


I think I was arguing against compositionality. The parts, to the extent that they have meaning, gain that meaning from their place in the whole.

Quoting Srap Tasmaner
I'm not sure what this means.


I meant how some form of platonism fits with your overall ontology. Dualist? Monist? Both?


mcdoodle July 03, 2017 at 10:41 #83165
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
But why go through the type business at all? Why not just say, as Frege does, that we each have the belief that such-and-such?


I'm not a Gricean, but I@m trying to follow the logic of Grice's thought. He goes through the type business because he's trying to find good generalisations. Partly he's trying to solve one problem of Fregean 'sense', which is that it hovers in no-man's-land, an inbetweenie:

Frege:The reference of a proper name is the object itself which we designate by its means; the idea, which we have in that case, is wholly subjective; in between lies the sense, which is indeed no longer subjective like the idea, but is yet not the object itself.


So I think this shows Frege not merely saying that each of us does something unique, but rather saying there's something intermediate: that 'sense' is something some but not all of us will share. Grice's version of that is 'implicature'. Both of them, 'sense' and 'implicature', seem to me interesting but dodgy concepts: they are the work of analytical people trying to pin down something slippery, contextual and often feeling-based or feeling-related. What do you think is the right way to look at it?
Terrapin Station July 03, 2017 at 10:59 #83169
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
Scenario (1): A and B have a box of propositions, and they each have opinions about which ones are true. They take turns sorting them into boxes marked "true," "false," and "not sure." Maybe neither of them have some special status that allows them to know what is true, but they can at least see the different ways they sort the propositions. A might be surprised to see B put something in the "true" box that he wouldn't, but B might convince A that he should, because of some others he put in.

Scenario (2): A has his own box of propositions and B has his own box. They might as well sort at the same time, without paying any attention to each other, and they can even share the boxes they sort into. Doesn't matter. What difference could it make to A what B does with his box of propositions?

I took you, perhaps mistakenly, as going for scenario 2, rather than scenario 1.

A third scenario you may find more congenial is suggested to me by Grice's talk of types.

Scenario (3): It's more like kids each sorting their own collections of baseball cards. They can each have a copy of the same card-- not numerically the same, but same player, year, series-- and they can have cards that they count as the same in different ways. "Do you have a Clayton Kershaw?" can be answered "yes" whichever one of the various Clayton Kershaws that have been issued you have.

Scenario 3 is more appealing than 1 in some obvious ways, so long as we can make the type stuff work.


First, it seems like you're still thinking about "true" (and "false") as something other than a judgment we make, as individuals, about propositions and their relations. That's because you're saying things like "some special status that allows them to know what is true." If you were using "true" as a synonym for "(a particular sort of) judgment," and then made a substitution, you'd see that you're saying "some special status that allows them to know what judgment they're making."

Aside from that, yes, I'm saying something much more like (1), although of course it depends on the person whether they care what other people are doing or not. But (1) is clearly what we do most of the time when we're interacting with other people philosophically, for example. We wonder why someone is saying that something is true or false when we clearly reach a different conclusion. We wonder if they're not using words in some obviously different way, etc.

And re types, yes, I'm saying something more akin to your Grice example.
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 14:38 #83208
Reply to mcdoodle
In a way, "no man's land" is exactly the right phrase, because nothing here is the sole and unshareable property of any man. I can understand why people think stuff out here "dodgy," but just look at what's here: meaning, information, patterns, mathematical objects, transitions, tendencies, dispositions, institutions, -- I could go on and on and on. We may nurse a view that we are particulars and all we ever really, in whatever sense you think you can make that work, talk about are other particulars, but I think every time you open your mouth you make use of stuff in no man's land. I think it's rather the point of language.
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 14:45 #83210
Reply to Mongrel
"Mind-independent" is not a phrase I have any use for, I think.

Re: compositionality, I don't see how you recursively generate expressions without it.

Re: my ontology, I don't have one.
Mongrel July 03, 2017 at 15:45 #83218
I was just discussing the meaning of enlightened with another poster. It's a case where we can go back and forth between a and the sense. There are a lot of different kinds of Buddhism with wildly different doctrines. Among a particular community, we could identify the sense agreed upon. Yet that sense is a sense among many that are out there (and over time.)
Mongrel July 03, 2017 at 15:46 #83219
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
"Mind-independent" is not a phrase I have any use for, I think.


OK. "Mental object" is what math people call the "idea" Frege speaks of. That's as opposed to "abstract object" which I suppose is his "sense."
mcdoodle July 03, 2017 at 16:11 #83221
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
people think stuff out here "dodgy," but just look at what's here: meaning, information, patterns, mathematical objects, transitions, tendencies, dispositions, institutions, -- I could go on and on and on


I don't know if you know the paper where David Chalmers argues for a contemporary Fregeanism where 'sense' pretty much becomes 'intension'. Here it is.
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 16:26 #83225
Reply to Terrapin Station
But the question is, what are A and B making judgments about?

Frege has a clear answer to that: the proposition, the thought, which is objective. I'll grant that this is basically a posit, but like any posit it serves a purpose. If A and B disagree about whether a proposition is true, they have to assign different truth-values to one and the same thing. That thing cannot be any particular inscription of the proposition, but the proposition itself.

The thought expressed by a sentence is also what Frege says you get when you understand the sentence, and you get it without remainder. It is what is communicated, what is transferred from A to B, what A and B can have different opinions about. This is the idea behind scenario (1) in which there is a single, shared, publicly available box of propositions for A and B. It's what you said it would be easy to deny. (Starting to feel a little icky about talking about propositions as if they're objects.)

So the question is whether scenario (3) can be made to work.

As is, it's just an intuition pump, right? I mean, baseball cards are manufactured; they are by design identical. The analogy is going to fail almost immediately. The questions that replace the built-in identity are a little problematic: what would make two utterances instances of the same utterance-type, two beliefs instances of that same belief-type? What's a type? It feels like you need something from scenario (1) (or nearby) to get this going.

Here's what I'm tempted to do: agree with Grice that this is what happens-- to talk about the tree, we need each to have a belief that the object we're looking at is a tree, not the belief. Don't posit, not yet anyway. (The idea is to avoid using Frege's machinery at all.) Accept that what we have here is all we need to talk about the tree. Then look for an explanation for how two numerically distinct beliefs can count as beliefs of the same type right here, in the transaction between two members of a linguistic community. We honestly don't need them to be instances of the same type, not for this part, although it's pretty obvious why that would be helpful. Right now all we need is for A and B to agree to treat their numerically distinct beliefs as instances of a belief-type.

Grice is almost certainly going to get here with a (probably infinite) chain of intentions, so that can get a little weird.

I'd like to come at it sideways, by the comparison with phonemes. How does someone "decide" that the allophone you actually utter will count as a /d/? This is already a little wrong, because the range of allophones is itself already determined by the speech community. It still looks like we're trying to figure out how conventions work.

One shot at this might be this: when you utter a sound, I have to take it as an allophone of some phoneme we use in our speech community or not. If possible, I'll take it as one of ours, because (a) intentions, and (b) why not? You can provisionally, experimentally take the sound as a phoneme. Which one? Again, you have to decide whether that phoneme with the others around it make a morpheme, and again if possible you will, because (a) intentions, and (b) why not? You do that provisionally and experimentally, all the way up to the complete utterance, and see if it seems to work. I'd say there's a tiny bit of evidence we do this in the way we read over typos, mentally substituting the right letter because we're pushing toward taking the utterance as valid. You could think of this as the principle of charity, but you might also wonder what choice we have but to proceed this way.

Does this actually work? Has any of Frege's machinery been smuggled in here anywhere?
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 16:36 #83228
Quoting Mongrel
"Mental object" is what math people call the "idea" Frege speaks of. That's as opposed to "abstract object" which I suppose is his "sense."


I think that's right, bearing in mind that he's going to take mathematical objects as, well, objects, just like physical objects. Sometimes he describes the sense of a complete (i.e., referring) expression as the way the object referred to is presented. Example: "2 + ..." is an incomplete expression, a function. Put an object in the blank, and you get a complete expression like "2 + 3". "2 + 3" refers to 5, but not the same way that "5" refers to 5, or "7 - 2" refers to 5. This is supposed to explain why equations can be informative. "2 + 3 = 5" tells you that the references of the two expressions are the same, but it remains that "2 + 3 = 5" expresses a different thought from "5 = 5" or "7 - 2 = 5". The thought expressed is the sense.
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 16:36 #83229
Quoting mcdoodle
I don't know if you know the paper where David Chalmers argues for a contemporary Fregeanism where 'sense' pretty much becomes 'intension'.


I do not, and thanks for the tip!
Mongrel July 03, 2017 at 17:04 #83231
Reply to Srap Tasmaner That's right on top of intensional definition. Two utterances have the same extension, but the extension alone is not adequate to convey the thought.

Also Soames presents an awesome argument for why we can't dispense with propositions (a sort of netherworld object) without denying that there is such a thing as agreement. It's in Understanding Truth.
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 18:22 #83240
Quoting Mongrel
Also Soames presents an awesome argument for why we can't dispense with propositions (a sort of netherworld object) without denying that there is such a thing as agreement.


I think I've been pushing a Frege-inspired version of this in chatting here with Terrapin. Certainly positing propositions do give you a way to agree and disagree, etc. So they're certainly sufficient, but I want to see more clearly whether they're necessary, which is what I'm working at above. I do wonder whether starting from the conditions of communication could eventually get you a version of Frege's machinery.
Terrapin Station July 03, 2017 at 19:00 #83246
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
But the question is, what are A and B making judgments about?


Insofar as truth goes, they're making judgments about the relation of a proposition to something else.

I state that as "something else" because not everyone uses the same "something else." That depends on the truth theory that someone subscribes to in the sense of correspondence versus coherence versus consensus etc.

Propositions, as the meanings of the sorts of sentences that can be true or false are not objective on my view, because meaning isn't objective. Of course Frege posited that they were objective, because Frege was anti-psychologism . . . which in my opinion was one of the dumbest moves that philosophy ever made. Not that that was only Frege's fault. I just mean the move away from psychologism in general.

If we're talking about the correspondence approach, the judgments are about the relation of a proposition to facts. Most facts on my view are objective.
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 19:19 #83251
Quoting Terrapin Station
Propositions, as the meanings of the sorts of sentences that can be true or false are not objective on my view, because meaning isn't objective.


So how do people compare judgments? I judge P[sub]me[/sub] true, you judge P[sub]you[/sub] true. We're not even talking about the same proposition. (In fact Frege argues that would actually be me judging P[sub]me[/sub] true[sub]me[/sub] and you judging P[sub]you[/sub] true[sub]you[/sub].)

As I said, if you can establish that P[sub]me[/sub] and P[sub]you[/sub], if not instances of P simpliciter, are members of some equivalence class (which we could then define to be P if we wanted), then you would have a meaningful way of comparing my judgment of P[sub]me[/sub] and your judgment of P[sub]you[/sub].

Until you do that, it's just me saying my apple's red and you saying your banana's yellow.
Terrapin Station July 03, 2017 at 19:59 #83253
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
So how do people compare judgments? I judge Pme true, you judge Pyou true. We're not even talking about the same proposition. (In fact Frege argues that would actually be me judging Pme trueme and you judging Pyou trueyou.)

As I said, if you can establish that Pme and Pyou, if not instance of P simpliciter, are members of some equivalence class (which we could then define to be P if we wanted), then you would have a meaningful way of comparing my judgment of Pme and your judgment of Pyou.

Until you do that, it's just me saying my apple's red and you saying your banana's yellow.


Are you asking me to literally report what we do? What we do should be obvious if you spend time talking to other people.

It's not like you saying your apple is red and me saying that my banana's yellow. It's like you saying your apple is red and me saying, no, you're apple is purple, where for all we can tell at least initially, we're both using the sound "apple" to "point at" the same objective thing, we're both using "red" and "purple" to "point at" the same objective things, etc.
Srap Tasmaner July 03, 2017 at 22:52 #83279
Quoting Terrapin Station
It's like you saying your apple is red and me saying, no, you're apple is purple, where for all we can tell at least initially, we're both using the sound "apple" to "point at" the same objective thing, we're both using "red" and "purple" to "point at" the same objective things, etc.


Do you say "No, your apple is purple" because for all you can tell at least initially, when I said "My apple is red," I meant what you would have meant if you had said, "Your apple is red"?
Srap Tasmaner July 04, 2017 at 00:55 #83290
Reply to Terrapin Station I should have added: do you expect that for all I can tell at least initially, when you say "Your apple is purple," you mean what I would have meant if I had said "My apple is purple"?
Wayfarer July 04, 2017 at 05:49 #83321
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
Frege has a clear answer to that: the proposition, the thought, which is objective.


Could I make a suggestion here, which is that the term 'objective' is somewhat misleading in this context. This is because mathematical proofs are not actually 'objective' in the sense of being 'inherent in an object or situation'. But they are not subjective, either. I think the problem here is that our modern use of 'objective' entails a certain class of truths, which is subtly different to a priori, rational or logical truths. I don't have a suggested alternative to 'objective' but I am just pointing out that I think it's a poor descriptor for the kinds of truth that Frege is wanting to elucidate.
Srap Tasmaner July 04, 2017 at 11:13 #83356
Quoting Wayfarer
Could I make a suggestion here, which is that the term 'objective' is somewhat misleading in this context.


This had not occurred to me. I think overwhelmingly I use objective/subjective to mean something like public/private, just because of the contexts in which I'm making the distinction. For instance, here the idea is that when you understand a sentence you have grasped something that anyone can, thus something public, as opposed to whatever images and so forth the sentence might call to your mind and your mind alone, which would be private.
Wayfarer July 04, 2017 at 11:43 #83365
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
I think overwhelmingly I use objective/subjective to mean something like public/private, just because of the contexts in which I'm making the distinction.


'Common to all who think', would be a way of putting it. The same as saying, '7' is the same for anyone who can count (and meaningless to anyone who can't) That's why I drew attention to the example of 'the triangle' - that is a concept, which must have the same meaning for any observer. But what I'm wanting to say, is that those kinds of facts are of a different order to objective judgements. We will, for example, call on them when wishing to make an objective judgement - 'she said there were only 5 left, but I counted them, and there were definitely 7'. We rely on numerical judgements all the time to assess what is objectively the case, but numerical reasoning in some sense precedes objective judgement; objective judgement relies on our ability to count or to make rational judgements. That's the sense in which I'm saying that numerical judgements aren't 'objective'; it's not as if they're 'subjective', either. I think they're something more like 'transcendental', in the Kantian sense.

That is why we have an overwhelming tendency to defer to science when it comes to adjudicating what is or is not a matter of fact. Scientific judgement at the end of the day deals with matters that can be made subject to quantitative analysis. Qualitative questions are of a different order; how do we measure them? The rules of maths, and the rules of logic, can be brought to bear on almost any subject. This is why scientific judgement can be said to be 'public', in the sense that it comprises findings which produce measurable data that others can observe (notwithstanding the so-called 'reproducibility crisis'.) And that underlying assumption is buried very deep in our naturalistic culture.

Sorry if I'm rambling. I'll leave it at that for now.
Srap Tasmaner July 04, 2017 at 16:56 #83439
Quoting Mongrel
Among a particular community, we could identify the sense agreed upon. Yet that sense is a sense among many that are out there (and over time.)


This is absolutely true of course, and you may have to narrow the context all the way down to the occasion of utterance, and even then you may have to appeal to the intention of the speaker to disambiguate an expression.

There is something mechanical about this process though, which may be why it's of slightly more interest to linguists than philosophers. (Perhaps wrongly.)

1. Does communication presuppose complete disambiguation?

2. The real trouble seems to come once disambiguation is done, assuming it can be: when I understand something you say, have I acquired the content of your utterance, as a sort of payload?
Mongrel July 04, 2017 at 17:53 #83445
Reply to Srap Tasmaner In regard to those questions, it's common to be interested in building an argument up to the answer dictated by one's ontology. You said you don't have any ontology. So how do you want to answer the questions: logically? By observing people from afar? By observing the events of your own mind?
Srap Tasmaner July 04, 2017 at 18:30 #83455
Reply to Mongrel E: all of the above.

I really cannot imagine doing philosophy by deciding ahead of time what I'll quantify over, if it comes to that. I have the same physicalist or naturalist prejudice most philosophers do, but that only decides all questions if you also believe in a form of reductionism that looks pretty suspect. Sometimes you're stuck with your theoretical entities.

Other commitments are certainly a factor in choosing one theory over another, but I'd say the main thing is always explanatory power: does the theory make sense of our collective intuitions? does it clarify murky cases? does it include what it should and exclude what it should? The opposites of those (and whatever else goes in there) are bad.
Srap Tasmaner July 04, 2017 at 18:43 #83458
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
Sometimes you're stuck with your theoretical entities.


Should also have said something here about category mistakes.
Mongrel July 04, 2017 at 19:21 #83469
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
I'd say the main thing is always explanatory power: does the theory make sense of our collective intuitions? does it clarify murky cases? does it include what it should and exclude what it should? The opposites of those (and whatever else goes in there) are bad.


That's cool. Could you give an example of the type of thing you want to explain?

I'm not usually too impressed by explanatory power. Explanations come and go. Each has some power, I suppose. I'm more drawn to a geometric approach. Pretend I'm an eliminative materialist. What would I have to conclude about the presuppositions of communication? What would I say about content?

What's the opposite of being eliminative? What would I see if I stood in that position? To make a square out of it, what view partakes of both of the above opposites (there should be two of them to make a square)?
Terrapin Station July 05, 2017 at 00:41 #83574
Reply to Srap Tasmaner

Yes to both questions. Again, isn't obvious that that's how people operate in these situations?
Srap Tasmaner July 05, 2017 at 01:18 #83579
Reply to Terrapin Station
There's the sentence I actually utter: "My apple is red."
There's the sentence you imagine uttering: "Your apple is red."
Do they have the same meaning? Express the same proposition? Are they equivalent in some other way?
Srap Tasmaner July 05, 2017 at 02:30 #83587
Quoting Terrapin Station
Propositions, as the meanings of the sorts of sentences that can be true or false are not objective on my view, because meaning isn't objective. Of course Frege posited that they were objective, because Frege was anti-psychologism . . . which in my opinion was one of the dumbest moves that philosophy ever made. Not that that was only Frege's fault. I just mean the move away from psychologism in general.


I'm just still trying to figure out what all this means. Maybe if you clarified what you mean by "objective" and "subjective" -- I may have guessed wrong -- that might help.

I believe I understand how Frege's view works; I don't understand how your view works. If you want to just explain it, that would be fine.
Terrapin Station July 05, 2017 at 12:55 #83695
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
There's the sentence I actually utter: "My apple is red."
There's the sentence you imagine uttering: "Your apple is red."
Do they have the same meaning? Express the same proposition? Are they equivalent in some other way?


We have to clarify what we're asking re whether the have the same meaning. Obviously, as a nominalist, I don't believe that they're literally the same. We're not talking about a numerical identity. (And I wish we didn't have to clarify this, but some people are confused into thinking that they must be numerically identical.)

But we assume that they're similar enough that they might as well be the same until there's a good reason to believe otherwise.

Quoting Srap Tasmaner
Maybe if you clarified what you mean by "objective" and "subjective" -- I may have guessed wrong -- that might help.


I've done that many times, but once again: subjective = mental phenomena, objective = the complement --things aside from mental phenomena.
Srap Tasmaner July 05, 2017 at 18:07 #83782
Quoting Terrapin Station
But we assume that they're similar enough that they might as well be the same until there's a good reason to believe otherwise.


That's not far from my earlier suggestion for how we can Grice's types rolling, but I still think that this similarity needs grounding, and we probably want a little more than an assumption to do it. And we need to explain how similarity does us any good.

Here's how I see the dilemma.

Option 1 (Frege's): propositions, meaning and truth are not subjective mental states or events.
Pros: meaning and truth are public and shareable; communication works as advertised -- understanding is grasping the same meaning as the utterer; logic works as advertised -- if A asserts P and B asserts ¬P, they're talking about the same thing.
Cons: entails a third (platonic) realm of entities (?) that are neither physical objects or subjective mental states or events.

Option 2 (psychologism): meaning, truth, etc. are subjective mental states or events.
Pros: does not entail the third realm.
Cons: communication and logic do not "literally" work as they do in Option 1: A and B cannot be in the same subjective mental state, thus A and B cannot "literally" understand each other's utterances, cannot both assert or deny the same proposition, etc.

You can of course just plump for option 1 or 2 and accept the consequences: accepting option 1 entails accepting a third realm many find implausible; option 2 leaves you hanging out with the freshmen asking, "How do I know your blue is the same as my blue?"

If that's not enough, there is further motivation for crafting a third option: there is a sense in which Option 1 explains nothing, but simply redescribes what we want to explain, with the needed theoretical entities (meanings, propositions, etc.) and a framework showing how they are related; Option 2 goes wrong not by relying on mental states and events, but by not engaging the theoretical framework of Option 1 at all.

We could modify, or clarify, Option 1 somewhat: it's platonic entities people are hesitant about, and it's not really clear what Option 1 is committed to in the way of entities. (Elsewhere, Frege is committed to numbers as objects, etc.) Propositions and concepts are not treated by Frege entities at all. But is the sense of a proposition? We talk about it as if it were, but perhaps there is a way of refining our presentation of Option 1 so that the population of theoretical entities is smaller and more acceptable.

We could modify Option 3 along the lines contemplated earlier in this thread, by gathering utterances and mental states into types or equivalence classes, with the intention of plugging this into the framework of Option 1 in place of the theoretical entities there. We somehow already do something like this with phonemes (or cheremes), for instance.
Terrapin Station July 06, 2017 at 20:53 #84077
Quoting Srap Tasmaner
You can of course just plump for option 1 or 2 and accept the consequences: accepting option 1 entails accepting a third realm many find implausible; option 2 leaves you hanging out with the freshmen asking, "How do I know your blue is the same as my blue?"


Re option 2, I don't see your cons as cons. We simply have to have theories of communication, understanding, etc. that reflect what's really going on given that 2 is the case.

Re how it's known that the blues are the "same," it's not something that can be known, but more importantly, it doesn't matter that we can't know this. There is nothing of practical importance that hinges on knowing this.

Re your third option, yeah, we can use the standard way of talking about this stuff, contra psychologism, as a useful fiction. There's nothing wrong with that as such, as long as we acknowledge that it's just a fiction that we're engaging in to make it easier to talk about the topics at hand. Hence why I'd normally talk about the same meaning, say, without explaining nominalist issues, etc.
Srap Tasmaner July 06, 2017 at 22:13 #84095
Reply to Terrapin Station
I think psychologism is prima facie implausible as an account of how we talk about mathematics, for one thing. Now the psychologismist, if they weren't just going to deny this -- I expect you will -- could respond that Frege's machinery was developed especially to formalize mathematics, and so there's no surprise that it works there, but also no reason to think it works at all anywhere else. But then the question is, what's different about mathematics? If the response is that mathematics is just convention, that it's all true by definition, something like that, that leaves unexplained how such conventions could possibly arise, conventions for which Frege's account does actually work. And if you could have such conventions as the basis for mathematics, why not for other things, why not for natural language?

Quoting Terrapin Station
There's nothing wrong with that as such, as long as we acknowledge that it's just a fiction that we're engaging in to make it easier to talk about the topics at hand.


Talking as if something were something else is very close to something counting as something else, and I still want to know how that works. As I've said, I think there's a kind of start in the way phonemes work -- there's a whole range of sounds that will count as the phoneme. That involves selecting certain features and ignoring others. Pitch, for instance, is irrelevant in English.

That "selecting certain features" part makes it sound like we're headed right back toward the Fregean machinery. But maybe not, or not only that. At the very least, we're talking about counting numerically distinct objects or events as instances of the same thing, and in a sense it doesn't matter how "objectively" similar or different they are -- counting two things apparently identical in every way, that as far as we can tell are copies of each other, as instances of some thing-type is still a leap. And it's that leap that is the basis for whatever else we do.

So I'm still stuck at the move from utterance to utterance-type, belief to belief-type, thing to thing-type.