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Discarding the Ego as a Way to Happiness?

CasKev June 26, 2017 at 16:10 10000 views 46 comments
After having suffered from major depression for about a decade, I had a year-long reprieve during which it seemed nothing could affect my continued state of contentment. I believe this came about mostly as a result of therapy and self-help books. During this time (which was considered to be hypomanic by some), I was very thoughtful and creative. I developed a framework and tools that I thought might be able to help others achieve that enduring peace of mind.

The framework was as follows:

Develop Awareness
You are not your thoughts - your true self is the formless observer that is aware of your thoughts
Presence - presence is achieved by using the five senses without background inner dialogue

Stop Judging
Human Nature - authentic human nature is to seek peace, and to act with love and integrity
Illusion of Control - the ability to choose is an illusion; everyone is a function of their physical being and their experiences; a person has no control over their creation, nor their initial environment, and therefore no true control over whatever follows (Keep in mind that this is not justification for inappropriate behaviour. Rules and laws are still necessary, and corrective action is still required when someone is negligent, or inflicts harm on others. People need to know that acts of carelessness, violence, and cruelty will result in a suitable consequence.The difference is that people are not condemned or deemed unworthy because of their actions. Instead, rules are made and consequences are determined with a mind free of bias or discrimination; not with punishment in mind, but rather the intent of helping someone live a life based on integrity and love.)
Forgiveness - observe, without attaching positive or negative connotation to your thoughts and words; with judgment removed, you can replace condemnation with compassion, and truly forgive yourself and others

Discard the Ego
Human Importance - humans are animals; our level of intelligence is what allows the ego to form
Sense of Self - we build our sense of self out of beliefs, and attachment to material forms
Equality - while there may exist differences in physical and mental form, everyone is equal at the level of the authentic self; no one is inferior or superior to anyone else

The idea was that you had to develop awareness before you could constructively address your negative thought processes and start viewing yourself and others with compassion. The final step I envisioned was shedding identity - along with the criticisms and self-imposed restrictions that often accompany it - in order to achieve lasting peace of mind. At this stage, identity loses its importance, and becomes just another choice of how one lives their life.

I am most interested in your thoughts on whether enduring contentment (in the absence of familial loss or threats to survival) could be achieved by lessening the importance of identity. However, I welcome your comments and criticisms on the first two stages presented above as well.

Comments (46)

0 thru 9 June 26, 2017 at 18:20 #81103
Reply to CasKev
(Y) Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I would sign off on it and agree with that. Glad that it has helped pull you through difficult times. I seem to know (hopefully) what you are getting at, and have had more or less similar discussions with people close to me. It is hard to put things like these into words, though imho your post is well-worded. It is mostly clear by your explanation what you mean by the word "discard"; that one would assume that you don't mean it in some absolute, otherworldly, or impractical way. I would not want someone to read the thread title, and jump to conclusions.

When i have had discussions with others about this general point of view, sometimes that misunderstanding accidentally occurs. They may think i am saying the ego is bad, or that humans are selfish thus bad, or that I think everyone has an ego problem except me. (Which is not the case). Just trying not to get locked into some self-made prison of static identity, which tends to be limiting like prisons are. The aim perhaps is to make one's ego into a secure home which can offer protection from various elements and creatures, including other humans. While avoiding turning one's inner self into kind of an armed, windowless and isolated fortress (so to speak). Have tried that and it is not very pleasant or productive. I think that was your point overall, and please respond if you'd like. Thanks again.
TheMadFool June 26, 2017 at 18:32 #81104
Quoting CasKev
Discard the Ego


To discard the ego is only possible at a certain level of consciousness. Is this success/failure I can't tell because if you look at it one way, ants and bees, egoless workers with only one thing on their mind - the colony, are very successful creatures but from another vantage point they're dumb.

Perhaps I'm distorting your POV. May be you don't really want to discard your ego. Rather you wish to moderate the ego's role in life.


CasKev June 26, 2017 at 19:39 #81116
Perhaps 'discard' is not the right word. I don't think it's possible to completely erase a sense of identity. The intent is to be aware of its existence; analyze how and why it formed; to identify the components that are self-defeating or cause suffering and discard those; and to realize that identity should be more like a work of art, a collection of choices that enrich your life and that of others.

Is this overly optimistic, or achievable given the right set of circumstances?
0 thru 9 June 27, 2017 at 01:14 #81200
Reply to CasKev
Sounds like you have just given a general description of Buddhism. :)
Rich June 27, 2017 at 02:43 #81232
1) Developing awareness is great. Best way to do this is via the different arts.

2) One can't stop judging. We are continuously judging in order to set direction (this is coupled with awareness).

3) No way to discard the ego except via suicide. It is who we are. What we can do is moderate desires. Lower highs and higher less lows. Moderate waves. The Middle Path.

As far as happiness it's concerned, it comes and goes like waves, always followed by sadness. Best we can do is moderate the cycles.
TheMadFool June 27, 2017 at 08:39 #81271
Quoting CasKev
Is this overly optimistic, or achievable given the right set of circumstances?


I think its achievable and I especially like what you said:

Quoting CasKev
collection of choices that enrich your life and that of others.


It makes your success a thing to applaud. I hope you succeed.
TimeLine June 27, 2017 at 10:24 #81279
Quoting CasKev
Forgiveness - observe, without attaching positive or negative connotation to your thoughts and words; with judgment removed, you can replace condemnation with compassion, and truly forgive yourself and others


I have never received an apology, not once in my entire life despite some hefty wrongdoings made against me. It has always been my fault. It was very hard living with the suffering and remorse was a welcome desire in an attempt to alleviate that suffering, but the likelihood of this is extremely rare. I recommend watching Dead Man Walking. In the end, there is no forgiveness necessary, just a desire for their penitence so that the experience can become past-tense and you can move on peacefully. In the event that this is not possible, come face to face with it and see it for what it is, teaching yourself to continue walking upright and ignore the hurt so that you don't change who you are.

Quoting CasKev
Develop Awareness
You are not your thoughts - your true self is the formless observer that is aware of your thoughts
Presence - presence is achieved by using the five senses without background inner dialogue


Is this no different to being rational and objective? That through introspection, one should observe the validity of their own thoughts without the influence of their emotions?

I believe that negative emotions exist for a reason, a subjective language telling us what reason cannot articulate. It is subjective pain; we feel physical pain to prevent hurting ourselves, a biological survival instinct. Negative or bad emotions are subconsciously telling us something is wrong, but because we don't understand what exactly, our subjective instincts seek out pleasure to avoid this sensation of subjective pain. Just like when we are physiologically fit and healthy - our natural state - we feel energy and movement, happiness, in my opinion, is our natural state, a freedom from these negative feelings. We are loving by nature, and so, it is an attempt to return back to our state of nature, yet our subjective instinct in this case is failing us because we avoid what our negative emotions are trying to tell us.

Peace is not the absence of emotions, but rather being capable of articulating what our emotions are trying to tell us; when we reason accurately as to why we feel this subjective pain rather than avoid it by justifying and seeking out fleeting ways to make us feel better, we are able to eliminate the toxic that influences these feelings because we get to the root cause. We find the antidote. Once eliminated, we return to our natural state. That very peace you speak of.

I do agree that control is an illusion, but reason is absolutely necessary so that our judgements are appropriate for both others and for ourselves. Sometimes being uncharitable can strengthen and benefit others, for instance. We just need to doubt our judgements, to not believe in it as one believes they have absolute control. Angry people tend to be the most presumptuous, telling themselves that what they believe must be true.
Galuchat June 27, 2017 at 11:21 #81296
CasKev:Develop Awareness
You are not your thoughts - your true self is the formless observer that is aware of your thoughts


I am my self (a subject having unique life experiences). Since self awareness (the combination of sentience and self identification) produces personal experience, if I am not my thoughts (and physiological processes), then I am not a subject, hence; do not exist.

Also, my awareness of my thoughts (meta-cognition) is itself a mental (thinking) process. So, if I am not my thoughts, how can I be my thoughts about my thoughts?

CasKev:Presence - presence is achieved by using the five senses without background inner dialogue


Sensory stimulation doesn't occur without producing sensation (a mental experience). As long as you are conscious, that switch doesn't turn off. At best, it can be relegated to background noise during semi-conscious states (e.g., trance). Which form of trance or other altered state of consciousness are you calling 'presence'?

CasKev:Stop Judging
Human Nature - authentic human nature is to seek peace, and to act with love and integrity


I couldn't disagree more. Human history is largely the history of human conflict. If not intuitively obvious, an experiment could be developed to test the following hypothesis: human beings are primarily concerned with satisfying corporeal desires, then social desires, and finally, ethical desires.

CasKev:Illusion of Control - the ability to choose is an illusion; everyone is a function of their physical being and their experiences; a person has no control over their creation, nor their initial environment, and therefore no true control over whatever follows...


I agree. However, I disagree with all remaining points.
0 thru 9 June 29, 2017 at 00:29 #82040
Quoting Galuchat

I am my self (a subject having unique life experiences). Since self awareness (the combination of sentience and self identification) produces personal experience, if I am not my thoughts (and physiological processes), then I am not a subject, hence; do not exist.

Also, my awareness of my thoughts (meta-cognition) is itself a mental (thinking) process. So, if I am not my thoughts, how can I be my thoughts about my thoughts?


Are you = your thoughts? Or do you have thoughts? That is quite a leap to say if one is not equivalent to their thoughts then they do not exist. It seems a bit unnecessary to take it that far, but of course, who's to judge? I believe the reference was to the "unseen seer" in Eastern traditions which is distinguished from the usual flow of thinking per se. Some find it a useful and specific difference, especially in calming the mind, as you were probably aware.

Galuchat June 29, 2017 at 07:50 #82098
0 thru 9:Are you = your thoughts? Are do you have thoughts? That is quite a leap to say if one is not equivalent to their thoughts then they do not exist.


It's logic (or algebra), not leap:
I=my self=a subject having unique life experiences.
Therefore, if I have no experiences (produced by physiological process and thought), I don't exist.

With regard to Eastern traditions, the OP uses psychological and sociological terms, as opposed to the terms of any particular worldview. I think these terms have been misused.

I also think it's a good idea to try to construct, or explain, a worldview in terms of social science. But the use of these terms should correspond with current science, and with common sense where science is lacking.
0 thru 9 June 29, 2017 at 16:31 #82217
Quoting Galuchat
With regard to Eastern traditions, the OP uses psychological and sociological terms, as opposed to the terms of any particular worldview. I think these terms have been misused.


One could address the OP in a variety of ways, of course, and not be limited to a certain lingo. But recognizing the potential limits of the human identity/ego is somewhat of a central topic of Eastern philosophies, to be general. So if there is some valuable psychological knowledge there, it can potentially be looked at "scientifically", not necessarily as a matter of faith or belief. Western psychology, from what I have seen, does approach the subject, and various pathologies. Eg. the work of Freud and especially Jung. But it seems the prevailing current view of the self/ego/identity is something like "what limits? why be such a downer! we are all superheroes! full speed ahead". IMHO, YMMV.

Quoting Galuchat
But the use of these terms should correspond with current science, and with common sense where science is lacking.

Certainly! No problem with science or logic at all. (Y)
Galuchat June 30, 2017 at 07:00 #82405
0 thru 9:...recognizing the potential limits of the human identity/ego is somewhat of a central topic of Eastern philosophies...Western psychology, from what I have seen, does approach the subject, and various pathologies. Eg. the work of Freud and especially Jung.


My views on self identity are influenced by the sociologists, George H Mead and Robert E Park. For example:

Self identity is the distinctive combination of personal and social attributes which describe a human being at a particular point in time, and cause him/her to be recognized by others, including: corporeal and mental characteristics, social roles, social group affiliations and values, and personal preferences and goals.
0 thru 9 July 02, 2017 at 15:09 #82975
Reply to Galuchat
I would definitely agree with that. It is the part mentioning social group roles and affiliations that seems key. Many would agree that over the past 50 or 60 years, there have been tremendous changes in the cultural, economic, educational circumstances that have seemed to have a weakening effect on the "fabric of society". Why and how might be another topic, but the general effect leads many people to not find their place in the world around them. Some have compared the situation to that of the Native Americans after their cultures were overrun and destroyed. Even though many physicially survived, their way of life was in ruins.

For a somewhat more hopeful example, witness the powerfully stabilizing effect that inner city USA ("Black") churches have. In areas where the economy, education, and the government have failed and in the midst of crime and violence, these churches are the oasis and foundation which prevents total chaos. Cultural collapse has gone mainstream, and it is here to stay. We may live in an area untouched by war, but in some ways we are living in the rubble and ashes, scrambling to survive and make sense of the world. Even when there is some measure of unity, there is no guarantee of success. But a people divided will fall- without fail.
Arran July 02, 2017 at 21:13 #83047
I believe eckart tolle, mooji etc get to the root of these questions.

All i can say about the ego is i think it is what i would describe as "evolutionary biological programming" that constructs an artificial identity so as to facilitate it expressing its biological drives like jealousy, vengence, violence, hate etc.

To say we are nothing but ego is to not understand the formless presence that can observe the ego. To say we are nothing but ego is to reduce the human form to purely what arises from our biology.

I am having similar thoughts recently. Good luck :)
Galuchat July 03, 2017 at 08:09 #83144
0 thru 9:Many would agree that over the past 50 or 60 years, there have been tremendous changes in the cultural, economic, educational circumstances that have seemed to have a weakening effect on the "fabric of society". Why and how might be another topic...


I agree that the fabric of Western society has been weakening over the past 50 or 60 years (if not longer). But this is not a new phenomenon. Societies throughout history have prospered and collapsed; sometimes due to the (mis)management of their political economies, and sometimes due to the actions of other societies.

I suspect that current societal collapse in the West is largely self-induced, as it was for Rome. If the cause of collapse is self-induced, which sub-groups benefit from division at the expense of the entire group?

0 thru 9:Some have compared the situation to that of the Native Americans after their cultures were overrun and destroyed. Even though many physically survived, their way of life was in ruins.


This is a valid comparison. The displacement of a culture produces culture shock (i.e., the re-alignment of a person's social identity), fragments society, and leads to tension and conflict.
Wayfarer July 03, 2017 at 10:36 #83164
'Laying aside the self' is also basic to Christianity, although not all Christians will utilise the terminology. But there's not as big a gulf between the Christian and 'Eastern' teachings on such ideas as there is often thought to be. For example:

Quoting Arran
All i can say about the ego is i think it is what i would describe as "evolutionary biological programming" that constructs an artificial identity so as to facilitate it expressing its biological drives like jealousy, vengeance, violence, hate etc.


Is quite in keeping with the 'myth of the fall' and as 'adam' representing all of those drives and imperfections.

However most Christian teachers interpret these ideas literalistically, whereas the 'Eastern' understanding is generally more nuanced. There are exceptions, however.
Brian July 03, 2017 at 10:53 #83167
Quoting CasKev
After having suffered from major depression for about a decade, I had a year-long reprieve during which it seemed nothing could affect my continued state of contentment. I believe this came about mostly as a result of therapy and self-help books. During this time (which was considered to be hypomanic by some), I was very thoughtful and creative. I developed a framework and tools that I thought might be able to help others achieve that enduring peace of mind.


First off, congratulations on feeling better and persevering through your illness. I suffered from major depression for about a decade as well and have no felt pretty much full recovery for more than year. It's an amazing feeling to be happy, isn't it? My treatment involved a combination of medications that at the very least did not make me worse, CBT and DBT therapies, as well as self-help books too. I especially find a lot of Buddhist influenced works to be helpful. Two of my favorite works are "Radical Acceptance" by Tara Brach and "Self Compassion" by Kristen Neff. Both amazingly helpful to me. Anyway, kudos to you, and may you continue to live your life in health and happiness! : )
Galuchat July 03, 2017 at 14:28 #83207
Wayfarer:'Laying aside the self' is also basic to Christianity, although not all Christians will utilise the terminology. But there's not as big a gulf between the Christian and 'Eastern' teachings on such ideas as there is often thought to be.


I agree that there are similarities in the teachings and moral codes of the world's major book religions and systems of moral philosophy, including self-denial. However, identity-denial (as the OP proposes) is not one of them, and for good reason: the destruction of a person's identity destroys the culture they are part of, and vice versa.
Arran July 03, 2017 at 17:45 #83235
A problem with people is that they are identified with manifestations of their identity, their job, their social class, their story etc...its like mistaking the flowers of a tree for its roots. The flowers are manifestations of the roots, they are not the origin of the tree.

Peoples identity is the formless observer behind their false, constructed identity.

Hence "identity-denial" is innacurate description of what OP is suggesting.

The realisation of this identity does not occur on the intellectual level, it is an experiential event. Meditation and observation of ourselves leads to this insight. :)
Galuchat July 03, 2017 at 19:11 #83248
Arran:Hence "identity-denial" is innacurate description of what OP is suggesting.


Seriously?

CasKev:The final step I envisioned was shedding identity - along with the criticisms and self-imposed restrictions that often accompany it - in order to achieve lasting peace of mind. At this stage, identity loses its importance, and becomes just another choice of how one lives their life. I am most interested in your thoughts on whether enduring contentment (in the absence of familial loss or threats to survival) could be achieved by lessening the importance of identity.

Arran July 03, 2017 at 19:18 #83250
I think he misunderstands things. He thinks it is loosing identity it isnt, you are right in that he mistakes it for identity-denial. But he needs understands things more deeply imho.

All that is not identity falls away and are seen as manifestations of the identity.
0 thru 9 July 03, 2017 at 19:33 #83252
When questioned about the phrase "discarding the ego", the original poster clarified...
Quoting CasKev
Perhaps 'discard' is not the right word. I don't think it's possible to completely erase a sense of identity. The intent is to be aware of its existence; analyze how and why it formed; to identify the components that are self-defeating or cause suffering and discard those; and to realize that identity should be more like a work of art, a collection of choices that enrich your life and that of others.

Is this overly optimistic, or achievable given the right set of circumstances?


Plus, no one in this thread is claiming to be an enlightened master or an expert in this somewhat murky subject. Looking for the questions first. If any answers turn up, then that's a bonus. X-)

BC July 03, 2017 at 20:03 #83254
[quote= CasKev]Discarding the Ego as a Way to Happiness?[/quote]

Well, you can't discard your ego. As the term is used, it's "you". You may not like everything (or anything) about your self, but "you" is all you've got, so accept it. "Acceptance" is another piece of happiness. By acceptance, I don't mean either abject submission or a narcissistic celebration. "Acceptance" is just that -- accepting who you are, now, as the starting point, whatever comes next.

Quoting CasKev
which was considered to be hypomanic by some


IF ONLY we could just find the precise point where hypomania could go on forever! Unfortunately, we tend to either slide up into mania (which can be real trouble) or we slide down into depression, which can be just as much trouble.

But... maybe you had a reprieve. I'm a long term depression case (30+ years) and am very grateful that for the last 3 or 4 years I've felt normal, effective, healthy, and productive. Maybe retirement had something to do with that, I don't know, but it's been great.

Quoting CasKev
Develop Awareness


Oh yes! Got to have it. Know thyself, the unexamined life is not worth living, and so on, unto thy own self be true, etc.

Quoting CasKev
Stop Judging


Acceptance again. It helps, in as much as one can, to accept other people. If someone you know is a gauche obnoxious slob, there's probably nothing you can do about it other than arranging one's schedule to avoid this person. But gauche obnoxious slob they will probably stay. I, myself, have been a gauche obnoxious slob at times.

Quoting CasKev
Discard the Ego


I said it already, but you still can't discard your ego. Accept that you have it, and stop judging yourself so harshly. Why should you be perfect? Nobody else is. (Some therapists think that guilt in failing to live up to perfectionist expectations is a component of depression. Some validity to that idea, I think.)

Quoting CasKev
Human Importance - humans are animals; our level of intelligence is what allows the ego to form Sense of Self - we build our sense of self out of beliefs, and attachment to material forms


I don't know... I don't think I agree (not that my opinion should ruin your day).

"self" starts to form early in life, before beliefs, attachment to material things, and all that comes along. Indeed, I think our sense of self guides our acquisition of beliefs or how we feel about material things. Some of self is genetically programmed. All humans have it, and we have it early on. As we age into maturity, we find we have complex selves which contains contradictions. As Walt Whitman said of himself, "I contain multitudes". Not sure what all Whitman meant, but I mean we aren't just simple, little wrinkled up, peach-pit selves. We're full of stuff. A simple, little self is to us as an asparagus stem is to a head of cauliflower. We burst out.
BC July 03, 2017 at 20:07 #83255
Reply to CasKev Welcome to The Philosophy Forum.
Wayfarer July 03, 2017 at 22:42 #83276
Quoting Galuchat
However, identity-denial (as the OP proposes) is not one of them, and for good reason: the destruction of a person's identity destroys the culture they are part of, and vice versa.


I don't know about that. 'Identity' is not something set in stone, it is dynamic. Basically the OP is picking up some principles based on Eastern teachings and practices which do indeed challenge the centrality of the ego. 'Stop judging' is non-discriminative awareness - to be aware of thoughts and emotions as they come and go, without either engaging in them or trying to suppress them. You find that in mindfulness teachings derived from Buddhism but they're found in other sources - even the 12 step programs.
Galuchat July 04, 2017 at 07:44 #83327
Galuchat:However, identity-denial (as the OP proposes) is not one of them, and for good reason: the destruction of a person's identity destroys the culture they are part of, and vice versa.

Wayfarer:I don't know about that.


What specifically don't you know about?

Wayfarer:'Identity' is not something set in stone, it is dynamic.


Self Identity is composed of Personal Identity and Social Identity.
1) Personal (i.e., Relational) Identity: the set of heritable attributes which remain essentially unchanged throughout the course of a person's life.
2) Social (i.e., Contextual) Identity: the set of social attributes which have their basis in social learning and change throughout the course of a person's life.

How is the static and dynamic nature of Self Identity relevant to the OP's proposal that identity should be denied?

Wayfarer:Basically the OP is picking up some principles based on Eastern teachings and practices which do indeed challenge the centrality of the ego.


"Some principles based on Eastern teachings and practices" is not the same as "similarities in the teachings and moral codes of the world's major book religions and systems of moral philosophy." Does the latter category include teachings which encourage identity-denial (as opposed to self-denial)?

The following is a list of the world's major book religions and systems of moral philosophy, including approximate dates of origin, appurtenant moral codes, and approximate number of adherents as a percentage of world population (2010):
1) Hinduism (5000 BC): Yamas and Niyamas, 15.0%.
2) Judaism (1400-1300 BC): Ten Commandments, 0.2%.
3) Jainism (900-600 BC): Mahavratas and Anuvratas, 0.1%.
4) Buddhism (600-400 BC): Five Precepts and Noble Eightfold Path, 7.1%.
5) Confucianism (500 BC): Analects (Lun Yu), 3.4%.
6) Taoism (400 BC): Daodejing and Taishang Ganying Pian, 3.4%.
7) Christianity (33): The Golden Rule, 31.5%.
8) Islam (610): Quran, 23.2%.
9) Sikhism (1500): Guru Granth Sahib, 0.4%.
10) Bahai Faith (1844): Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 0.1%.

Where do mindfulness teachings and 12 step programs rank on this list?
What does "challenging the centrality of the ego" mean? Is it:
1) Endorsing self-denial, identity-denial, or something else entirely?
2) A teaching which is common to all the above religions and moral philosophies?
Wayfarer July 04, 2017 at 11:27 #83362
Quoting Galuchat
However, identity-denial (as the OP proposes) is not one of them, and for good reason: the destruction of a person's identity destroys the culture they are part of, and vice versa.
— Galuchat
I don't know about that.
— Wayfarer

What specifically don't you know about?


I read the OP again - I don't think it is worded very well. But I interpret it as a philosophy of learning to rise above the reflexive sense of ego which is generally pretty central to human nature. I think, overall, being less ego-centric is a plus - wouldn't you? I don't know if 'shedding identity' is a particularly good way of putting it - 'abandoning one's sense of self-importance' might suffice.

I also don't really agree with the OP that 'humans are animals', precisely because humans are capable of both being ego-centric, and also going beyond it. Ego, generally, is a product of the self-awareness that only humans are capable of.

But I think what the OP is actually getting at is that the ego is in some sense a product of the kind of instinct for self-preservation and 'animalistic' in that sense; and one which we need to see through. The OP didn't say exactly that, though, I will grant that.

Quoting Galuchat
How is the static and dynamic nature of Self Identity relevant to the OP's proposal that identity should be denied?


Notice the phrase in the OP

Quoting CasKev
your true self is the formless observer that is aware of your thoughts...


which is, I think, a principle that is found in Eastern texts, especially Vedanta, which posits a 'higher self' that is superior to ego and the nature of which is inherently joyful. As aspect of these philosophies is that the ego has to yield itself to the 'higher nature' through sadhana, 'spiritual practice'. So certainly this involves 'shedding' or abandoning one's instinctive or reflexive egotism, but that is what is required to realise a higher and more satisfactory state of being.

Quoting Galuchat
Where do mindfulness teachings and 12 step programs rank on this list?


Mindfulness is derived from Buddhism, ultimately from a scripture called the 'Satipatthana sutta'.

12-step programs originated with Alcoholics Anonymous. Though it's not a religious ideology as such, it draws on a kind of 'secular spirituality' to overcome alcoholism and addictive behaviours generally; one of the steps is 'recognising a higher power that is a source of strength'.
unenlightened July 04, 2017 at 11:56 #83370
Quoting Galuchat
Self Identity is composed of Personal Identity and Social Identity.
1) Personal (i.e., Relational) Identity: the set of heritable attributes which remain essentially unchanged throughout the course of a person's life.
2) Social (i.e., Contextual) Identity: the set of social attributes which have their basis in social learning and change throughout the course of a person's life.


It seems fairly obvious that it is neither possible or desirable to discard one's genetic and experiential history. I think it likely that this is not the ego that folks are talking about discarding. Rather, it must be something that is ubiquitous, but superfluous to a functioning human. One might suggest that it is not the facts of what or who one is, but the image.

Thus identification is a thought process that fixes an image of self that one then conforms to, protects, and makes the centre of one's reality. Thus one's religion, one's nationality, one's politics, are part of this structure, not just as neutral facts, but as allegiances. It is unsurprising, then, that established religions are a bit ambivalent about discarding such identifications.

with this in mind, I think it is clear that while there is no great difficulty in conceiving the possibility of discarding such identifications, the identity of 'one who has discarded all identifications' is a performative contradiction. Thus one arrives quite naturally at mindfulness as the practice of observing oneself without the separation of the observer and the observed, which is the process of accumulation of self-knowledge, and the fixing of identity in thought.
Galuchat July 04, 2017 at 12:22 #83376
Reply to unenlightened

Thanks for the summary. It makes sense.
Galuchat July 04, 2017 at 12:29 #83378
Reply to Wayfarer

Thanks for the clarifications. It makes sense to understand the OP's "ego" as egocentricity. As such, the OP would then be an endorsement of self-denial rather than identity-denial.
unenlightened July 04, 2017 at 13:07 #83396
Quoting Galuchat
What effect does denying social identity in this manner have on society?


If it became at all widespread, it would have a transformative effect, ending division between 'us' and 'them'. I can't begin to imagine how pleasant that would be for everyone.
Galuchat July 04, 2017 at 13:54 #83408
Reply to unenlightened

Is mindfulness then self consciousness (meta self awareness)? And by "fixing identity in thought" does it construct identity independent of social influence?
0 thru 9 July 04, 2017 at 14:26 #83417
Any steps to re-balance the ego and re-consider the identity (that which is one's sense of self, or the border between "Self" and "Not-Self") will more than likely yield positive results. It is not an all-or-nothing affair where one is trying to lose, or worse yet "kill", the ego. Some gentle and gradual reducing may help, though. The ego can become inadvertently enlarged, much like an untended lawn, our bodies, or the pile of our possessions can. There seems to be something in the human mind that likes to grab and hold onto things to fill the void. This can be natural and healthy, like eating when hungry. But it quickly can go to extremes, that much seems self-evident. At least it relates to my experiences both past and present in attempting to find the ever-moving balance points. When applied to the body, it can lead to a toxic obesity and ill health. With possessions, it may manifest as extreme hoarding.

But when it is the "self itself" trying to hyper-expand to fill the void and deal with a sense of emptiness, it is harder to deal with because it is not visible. Not visible, but existent nonetheless. A feeling of disconnection and isolation from other humans and the rest of the world is perhaps one of the most common feelings. When one feels as separate, small and powerless as a ping pong ball floating on the ocean, it seems like we are battered about at the mercy of the wind and waves. The first inclination might be to do something like the expression "go big or go home". But if one completely identifies with the Isolation, and believes that they are totally separate from everything else, "going big" might just make the situation worse. Instead of being a "ping pong ball self" floating on the ocean, there is a "beach ball self" floating on the waves.

Well, the "beach ball self" is definitely bigger. Sometimes in certain circumstances bigger is better, but sometimes not. The reflexive habit to expand our identity while keeping the walls of that identity air-tight can lead to a ballooning effect. The more air pumped into a balloon, the larger it becomes. But the air pressure is also increased which may lead to a sense of tightening constriction. The larger an inflated balloon becomes, the thinner its skin is. This makes it more vulnerable to pinpricks and the like. A beach ball on the ocean may have lots of room to bob about. But imagine a room filled with many beach balls, all inflated to the max. They are "feeling" (so to speak) internally pressured from the air, and externally pressured from all the other beach balls pushing against their thin vulnerable surfaces. One can then imagine the sorts of dynamics and conflicts arising from this hypothetical situation. This describes in a very general way many of the interactions around us, imho.

Those who say that this situation is the way things are and is unavoidable, and it boils down to "survival of the fittest" are probably concerned with becoming the largest beach ball on the block, while trying to deflate their competition.

And there are those who know this dynamic exists, but are looking for other ways of existing. Those that look long enough might find something. Like still having an identity with boundaries and walls, but being conscious of the necessity of doors and windows in those mental walls.
unenlightened July 04, 2017 at 15:26 #83429
Quoting Galuchat
by "fixing identity in thought" does it construct identity independent of social influence?


So I am English, male, middle class, and white. These are historical and biological facts, but they also have a social meaning. It would be silly for me to deny either the facts or their social meaning. Other people tend to treat me in certain ways and make certain assumptions about me based on the social meaning, and this is again a fact of life.

Psychologically, since these meanings are congenial, by and large, I am inclined to adopt them; where they are uncongenial, I am inclined to deny them, which is to adopt their negation. So I imagine myself as civilised, intelligent, competent, tolerant, restrained, strong, etc etc. I emphasise 'imagine' because this image is not created by me right now, by looking at myself as I am, rather it is already there in my thoughts as an image built out of my responses to those social influences that come from the social meaning ascribed to historical and biological facts. In short, I develop an image of myself as a jolly fine fellow.

This leads inevitably to an inverse not-identity that I project onto 'them'. Where 'they' are females, foreigners, toffs or peasants.

Quoting Galuchat
Is mindfulness then self consciousness (meta self awareness)?


Mindfulness, then is looking at all this that is going on in my mind all the time, looking at what is happening, at the operation of these images, but without operating on them or judging them, and without making a separation of the mindful self looking at the unmindful self, but rather of the unmindful self being mindful for a moment of its own unmindfulness.

I don't know if this is at all answering your questions, and it is said without authority, as my own best understanding. Most of it is stolen from here.
CasKev July 04, 2017 at 15:34 #83432
Thanks to all for the excellent discussion.

Quoting 0 thru 9
Like still having an identity with boundaries and walls, but being conscious of the necessity of doors and windows in those mental walls.


I think this is very much in the spirit of what I am proposing - being conscious of identity and how it formed; knowing what comprises the mostly immovable foundation, and moving along the spectrum of need versus choice, to what lies in the realm of completely flexible options; being open to new information and reconsideration of what we believe to be true; and making choices that truly benefit self and others.


Galuchat July 04, 2017 at 16:26 #83435
unenlightened:I don't know if this is at all answering your questions, and it is said without authority, as my own best understanding. Most of it is stolen from here.


That's great. Thanks very much. I will need to work on the psychology of mindfulness. Perhaps Krishnamurti and Bohm will be of assistance.
CasKev July 04, 2017 at 17:14 #83441
Quoting unenlightened
Most of it is stolen from here.


Very interesting interview. What I get from it is that instead of just 'being', the brain gets caught up in 'becoming' something more, and protecting what we have 'become' so far. Our basic survival instinct mistakenly applies itself to our created identity, which we are constantly trying to improve, never being totally satisfied with where we are at any point in time. The constant wanting for material things that many of us experience is reflected inward, by always wanting to 'be' more.
Wosret July 04, 2017 at 22:12 #83539
There is a tension between specialization and adaptability. Specialization is an inevitable death sentence. As the specialist becomes more and more dependent on their environment and circumstances, which they then must work steadily to maintain. Muscle memory, form and function. If one does the same thing over and over again at the same tempo, same time of day, same temperature and all that the better and better and better theyll get at it, but the less and less theyll be able to deal with change. This is why when we get all comfy, we start to rationalize and justify the way things and our lives are. Only the uncomfortable want change.

Aristotle and the buddha may seem like theyre saying similar things, but theyre proponents of very different things.
Wayfarer July 05, 2017 at 00:00 #83569
Quoting unenlightened
Mindfulness, then is looking at all this that is going on in my mind all the time, looking at what is happening, at the operation of these images, but without operating on them or judging them, and without making a separation of the mindful self looking at the unmindful self, but rather of the unmindful self being mindful for a moment of its own unmindfulness.


(Y)
CasKev July 07, 2017 at 16:42 #84277
Quoting 0 thru 9
Plus, no one in this thread is claiming to be an enlightened master or an expert in this somewhat murky subject. Looking for the questions first. If any answers turn up, then that's a bonus.


Yes, just trying to 'Solve for Happy' (Mo Gawdat), without relying on a belief in grand purpose, or any sort of afterlife. It continues to amaze me that despite the astounding advances in technology, no one has figured out a sure-fire way to achieve lasting peace of mind. I've learned a lot of skills that have at least minimized the mental suffering, but I would pay almost every last cent I have to be rid of the last traces of depressed thinking and feeling.
Galuchat July 07, 2017 at 17:05 #84278
CasKev:Yes, just trying to 'Solve for Happy' (Mo Gawdat), without relying on a belief in grand purpose, or any sort of afterlife. It continues to amaze me that despite the astounding advances in technology, no one has figured out a sure-fire way to achieve lasting peace of mind. I've learned a lot of skills that have at least minimized the mental suffering, but I would pay almost every last cent I have to be rid of the last traces of depressed thinking and feeling.


Then maybe what you need is a worldview instead of a bag of mind tricks.
CasKev July 07, 2017 at 18:51 #84290
Quoting Galuchat
Then maybe what you need is a worldview instead of a bag of mind tricks.


My mind seems to have trouble finding satisfaction in a worldview, when part of me can't seem to find the value in a finite existence. However, having decided to continue living (mostly to avoid causing suffering to the people who care about me), I'm trying to do the things that keep the major depression at bay, and I think the mind tricks do more good than harm.
0 thru 9 July 12, 2017 at 00:25 #85727
The ability to lose and forget yourself periodically in some activity or hobby seems to do wonders for overall peace of mind. It is like a little nap, in terms of stress relief. I think that is why we love books and movies so much. "The world is too much with us"? Maybe our self is too much with us. Lose yourself, lose your problem.
CasKev July 28, 2017 at 17:12 #91027
Quoting Pollywalls
I don't think you are talking of the freudian ego.


The ego I speak of is the sense of identity a person develops throughout life, to which he/she can become desperately attached, affecting them via negative self-judgment and poor life choices.
Luke August 15, 2017 at 23:11 #97139
WISDOMfromPO-MO August 16, 2017 at 03:51 #97189
If we are taking about functioning better, that is one thing.

But if we are talking about trauma, pain, etc. then what I believe David Smail said (from a clinical psychology perspective, not a religion/mysticism/spiritual perspective) is what I would say: the damage is done and all we can do is learn to live with it.