Achieving Stable Peace of Mind
I have a history of major depression, which I seem to have moved past, thanks to a combination of medication and cognitive behavioural therapy. I found what I was left with was a mildly depressed feeling (unpleasant, but not unbearable), seemingly based on thoughts of mortality, pointlessness of life, and lack of meaning.
Recently, I came across some writings by Peter Wessel Zapffe, that seemed to ring true with my current core beliefs. What I got from it was that humans are basically animals with highly evolved intelligence and consciousness, who develop coping mechanisms - mainly rejection of negative thought, anchoring on items or ideas of importance, and distraction - to deal with the absurdity of life. In the absence or rejection of such coping mechanisms, one can end up over-thinking life, and searching for meaning where no such meaning exists.
My hope is that the same 'over-evolved' brain that finds despair in lack of meaning can move past this dilemma in a positive way. Perhaps if I can accept that life has no great purpose (or none that will be undeniably proven during my lifetime), I can be content with focusing on satisfying what seem to be our basic instinctive needs - food, shelter, family, community, love, freedom from pain, etc.
Is this a common philosophical approach to life? In your experience, have people achieved long-term contentment or freedom from despair looking at life in this way? Are there any readings you would recommend on the subject of cultivating a relatively stable peace of mind?
Recently, I came across some writings by Peter Wessel Zapffe, that seemed to ring true with my current core beliefs. What I got from it was that humans are basically animals with highly evolved intelligence and consciousness, who develop coping mechanisms - mainly rejection of negative thought, anchoring on items or ideas of importance, and distraction - to deal with the absurdity of life. In the absence or rejection of such coping mechanisms, one can end up over-thinking life, and searching for meaning where no such meaning exists.
My hope is that the same 'over-evolved' brain that finds despair in lack of meaning can move past this dilemma in a positive way. Perhaps if I can accept that life has no great purpose (or none that will be undeniably proven during my lifetime), I can be content with focusing on satisfying what seem to be our basic instinctive needs - food, shelter, family, community, love, freedom from pain, etc.
Is this a common philosophical approach to life? In your experience, have people achieved long-term contentment or freedom from despair looking at life in this way? Are there any readings you would recommend on the subject of cultivating a relatively stable peace of mind?
Comments (87)
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/1440/philosophy-of-depression-
Several other similar threads too. But please feel most free to continue your discussion here! I'm not familiar with Zapffe, thanks i will check out his work. If it helps you, then that is good. And thanks again; best wishes and peace to you. (At the risk of annoying everyone by quoting the Tao Te Ching yet again, i'll just say that i find it most helpful and clarifying. YMMV).
:)
For me, awareness was the necessary first step to trying to make some sort of sense about life. It's still difficult to deal with the realities of life at times, but then again, that's part of reality for me for now.
I'm inclined towards having Buddhist [and related] ideas though I haven't really done any decent reading on the matter.
Quoting CasKev
You, me, and a billion other people. Welcome to this club too.
Quoting CasKev
Yes. The universe does not supply a ready made meaning for life, and for 99.9999% of all earthly species, that is not a problem. Birds and bees and four-legged beasts go about their day whether the universe has any meaning or not. For our species, however, whether or not the universe has a meaning can become a problem.
People who are depressed sometimes fixate on the meaningless of the universe, but it is important to remember that depression caused the fixation. The universe neither makes one depressed, nor is so fascinating in its meaninglessness that it attracts our fixated stare. People who are (mercifully) not depressed generally don't worry about these kinds of problems. Like the birds, they just get on with their day -- hoeing the corn or teaching math or doing the laundry--whatever it is we do.
I was chronically depressed for decades; medication and talk therapy helped. That and a major (unplanned) change in life circumstances have largely eliminated the problem--and just in time--I'm in my 70s and maybe don't have a long time to enjoy not being in a funk all the time. The less depressed I feel, the less a meaningless universe is a problem.
It is our task to create meaning. This isn't an unmixed blessing. Define the universe as one big meaningless pile of garbage and that's what one is stuck with -- so be careful.
Or, maybe, never mind the universe. Just give your life meaning you can actually live with. We are only here for a while, and we don't have to solve all the problems a meaningless universe can give us.
I hold too much weight in my upper body, and am prone to anger. Compassion/ da love energy comes from the hips. So that walking around, dancing around, and just being up on my feet long enough makes me a lot calmer, and happier, and enjoyable to be around. Laying around, or sitting driving, and stuff like that, the longer I do it, the easier I'll be to enrage.
Working on it, ideally I'm going to move my weight lower, and get more compassion, and less fury.
The only major external force I can identify that may be regularly affecting my mood is my boss at work, who is quite heavy-handed, and has taken away much of the autonomy I enjoyed working for my previous boss. To deal with this, I believe I have the necessary CBT-based tools.
So I'm left wondering if it's my system of core beliefs about how I think the world should be (or how I've been conditioned to think it should be) that is resulting in this residual feeling of depression, and whether there is some way of thinking that could bring my beliefs more in line with how the world really operates.
If your beliefs are that you have to be certain ways that you rarely feel, and pursue goals that you don't actually want, then yeah those are wrong -- but I think that you already know that it's the reduction in autonomy, and a reduction in leash length.
The key here is that we have coping mechanisms that enable us to reject negative thoughts, the problem itself being the rejection and that we are instinctually compelled to avoid negative feelings. When you think of victims of PTSD for instance after a car accident, the increased production of glucocorticoid along with amygdala (limbic system) causes the individual to be unable to turn the emotional experience of that car accident into a past-tense experience, so they may go on for months after the event continuously feeling similar sensations - anxiety, stress, fear - even though their day-to-day activities are normal. We have defence/coping mechanisms to suppress experiences that are not wanted or that we are incapable at conscious level to articulate and thus ignore or avoid the experience that becomes visible in sensations of ongoing anxiousness. Both depression and anxiety are defence/coping mechanisms but in two very different ways so I am not confident that it is a 'higher evolution' as you say when it comes to depression, but a rather talented variation of confronting trauma. If you think of PTSD again, the continuation of feelings of sadness and doubt is caused because one has not been able to turn the emotional experience of the trauma into past-tense and thus confronted it (brought it to consciousness), so they go on living day-by-day feeling the same way even though their circumstances may not render those feelings justifiable. These feelings of both anxiety or depression are actual thoughts that you have not yet brought to conscious level and so you are experiencing it emotionally and because you cannot articulate those emotions, you use justifications for them; so sadness and despair equates to existential pointlessness, when really that is not the case but just your way of trying to explain the feelings. Only honesty can motivate any sense of genuine recovery.
You might be interested in the work of Colin Feltham. He's a psychologist and counselor who is working in the field of depressive realism, with an emphasis on integrating the thought of Peter Zapffe.
He's certainly not one of those positive psychology people, but he is trying to find ways of coping with the human condition that isn't disingenuous or fatal. I think one of the things he critiques Zapffe on is his underappreciation of love and intimacy.
Real depression is a disorder of the brain. Maybe it is endogenous. If so, external changes might not make that much difference. If it's exogenous, then changing your life might well reduce your depression. To a large extent, you did that with medication and CBT. Good.
Some people's depression is clearly endogenous. People with severe major and chronic depression usually can't point to an exterior cause. It's internal chemistry.
For those whose depression is exogenous (it's still real, however, mediated by internal brain chemistry) it's difficult to generalize about whether a change in life will reduce depression or not. Changing jobs might make a difference. Depending on the next job, things might be better or worse...
It is certainly worthwhile to resolve cognitive dissonance, but I don't think most people are depressed by such a cause alone, but doing so might help a person feel better.
I tried to make major changes in my life, I tried therapy, I tried medication. It all helped to some degree. What made the most difference was retirement from work, and the end of a spouse's difficult and finally fatal illness. There was a period of grieving, but then I discovered I was free of many burdens, and what had been a steady drain (depression) finally was gone.
This was serendipitous change. I hadn't previously been successful in engineering a sufficiently dramatic change in life.
However, one can carry on reasonably successfully, depressed or not. Care in managing one's choices and feelings is essential. Good luck.
I was going to write the same thing. I'm 65 and working part time, 20 hours a week. I've been lucky enough to work where I can do the things I love and stop doing the stressful and unfulfilling stuff. Unfortunately, stopping or reducing work is not an option for most people. I don't know what to suggest for those who can't.
1- There is a man – depressed – who walks to the edge of a cliff in order to jump and end his misery. When he gets to the edge he sees a ledge below with another person. This person has no feet. There is always someone worse off than you.
2- I had a psychology professor who said: you know, people study psychology thinking they are going to fix themselves. What you find out is that it does not quite do the job. Want to fix yourself – help someone else.
Is he the one who invented the pyrrhic victory?
And the guy two ledges down had no hands or feet; on the third ledge down was someone who had jumped, didn't know the third ledge was there, and ended up too injured to finish himself off. So sure, there is always someone worse off. I find knowing that some people are worse off singularly unhelpful.
Quoting Thinker
This, on the other hand, is the very model of modern good advice. At least for the problems that stem from self absorption, isolation, loneliness, alienation, and all that -- making meaningful, helpful connections with other people has great value--to both parties.
Workers of the world unite? You have nothing to lose but your chains and a world to gain?
Tie the boss up and tell him he stays in the broom closet until he is ready to meet your non-negotiable demands?
Seize the means of production and begin production for human need instead of profit?
Corral the Board of Directors of Apple Corporation and give them a deal: Meet our non-negotiable demands (distribute the $100+ billion in cash you are all sitting on to the poor) OR you each will be forced to eat one IPhone 7. Don't want to eat a phone? Then start writing checks?
People forget that unions gave American workers many of the positive aspects of work that we enjoy today - 40 hour week, benefits, health insurance, and so on. Unfortunately, the level of worker organization you are talking about no longer seems possible.
Sadly, a different Pyrrhus, although roughly a contemporary, won a battle against the Romans but couldn't afford the casualties.
I slightly mis-spoke, the sceptic is known as Pyrrho.
Sextus isn't an Epicurean though?
All true.
Why? For one, employers have gained too many legal protections against worker organization, and are themselves alert and and organized. Their anti-union activities are effective. Two, the unions that do exist are too often a.) in bed with the boss; b.) corrupt; c.) ineffective d.) too small. Militant members make for militant unions, and workers are not, at this point, militant.
Workers are not militant because the concepts which make strong resistance possible have been buried. Public relations efforts portray worker organizing as conflict that is undesirable, disruptive, unproductive, against the public good. The public has become well educated in the corporate, pro-capital view of the world.
A new element -- the marginalization of the low and semi-skilled worker in the US--and even some skilled and professional workers, by automation (computers and robots), is game changing, not for the better, from the perspective of a worker seeking a good job.
What bothers many professional workers is that tighter management control often diminishes the intellectual satisfactions of work. One of the bastions of intellectually satisfying work -- the college faculty job -- has been degraded by replacing full time teachers with low-paid term-to-term temp-teachers.
One could go on for pages and pages...
I've addressed many emotional issues through therapy, but your comment makes me question whether I still have unresolved issues floating around at the subconscious level. The trouble is in trying to identify what those issues may be, or to pick up on themes that seem to be recurring in my conscious thought processes.
I think the CBT skills I've learned help me address conscious negative thoughts in a positive way - by questioning their validity before rejecting them (or doing something about it if some validity is found), instead of simply repressing the thoughts and related emotions.
You also bring into question the cause and effect relationship between depression and depressive thought. Am I in a position where current stresses or unresolved subconscious issues are causing a depressed state, which leads me to think in depressed ways; or have I resolved the major emotional issues in my life, am I using CBT to effectively manage current stresses, and the depressed thoughts are being derived from my perceived lack of meaning in life, when I desperately want there to be some sort of meaning?
The latter explanation was what led me to think that perhaps if we can believe that we are just really smart monkeys who attach too much importance to their existence, maybe we can forget about ultimate purpose, and just do the things that we instinctively want to do (eat, sleep, survive, procreate, relate, love, minimize suffering) before being tainted by societal ideals (meaning, success, accumulating stuff, looking and acting in certain ways).
Yes, I beg his pardon.
It also makes sense to me that a lot of the change comes from the movement of the center of gravity of our population from the north to the south. I think different social traditions make a lot of difference.
Haha, so why then did you recommend Sextus as the place to start the journey towards being Epicurean? Why not Lucretius?
Yes, I meant to say Lucretius.
:s very confusing man!
This brings me to life itself.. We have new kids, we are inherently giving them the burden of work. I am not in the camp that believes that work is good for people.. If certain personality types like the tasks that we call "work", than that is their play.. but work is not always play.. Why provide more units of work, more burdens to deal with in the first place by throwing more people into the workforce? I force you to work with my demands, you force me to work with your demands.. we force people into existence and are now forced to work, and force others to work.. It's not only the work itself, it's the conditions, the other people, the interactions, etc.
Who becomes a manager should be based on election by workers. "Management and oversight" is a useful service which helps people perform well, when the purpose is to enhance work, rather than just squeeze out more from fewer people. There are people who have been managers over me who I would happily elect as a manager, and their are other people who should never be in the position of management.
What you and schopenhauer1 are talking about is Communism, worker control of production. I'm not saying that as a way of dismissing your argument. Problem is, it won't happen. It would be an order of magnitude more difficult to implement that than to revitalize labor unions. I'm also pretty sure it won't work. Seems pretty contrary to human nature to me.
The 'tyranny of low expectations'.
If there are 4 shitty people and 2 good people.. the 4 shitty people will put someone shitty like themselves in charge.. (Insert quote about how shitty people like shitty leaders..add other quote about Trump being a shitty leader :D). Of course what makes a shitty leader is in the eye of the beholder.. too nuanced.. a ruthless task master who gets the job done early so everyone has more free time or a loungy "cool" boss who lets you go at a leisurely pace and more time for fun at work? I guess we can both agree arbitrary hours (8 hours but all of it is BS work) is bad and makes no sense so maybe there are some objective measures.. no arbitrary rules about work hours, etc. Then there's the idea that there should be no leader at all, even by democratic vote.. anarchy within anarchism baby!
My socialist mentors always warn against utopian schemes. On the other hand, our reach should exceed our grasp. There is nothing eternal about the way economies are organized now.
Human nature, according to modern Marxist thinkers is constructed. The older view is that it is essential. Of course, it's both -- some parts are learned, some parts are encoded. I'd reveal all the details of the secrets of life right here and now, but I have to go to the dentist first.
I believe, and I think there is science to back me up, that a lot of human capacity and potential is built into us genetically. There is human nature independent of learning or socialization. Which isn't to say I disagree with your statement.
As I get older, going to medical professionals is the secret of life.
Do you think the search for meaning and purpose is genetic or learned? Do you think it is possible to ignore such thinking and still achieve peace of mind?
I think its partly hardwired, although I can't cite evidence for that belief. Humans are story tellers. We don't seem to be able to stop ourselves. I see that drive as built in. That's an impression, not a fact. I think the search for meaning and purpose is one of the stories we tell.
About what happens if we ignore such thinking - I think everyone has their own stories to tell. It's more important that the stories come from our hearts or souls or whatever than that it be any particular story.
It is hard and the moment where you feel the burden or heaviness rather intensely, usually instigated by some present experience, it is important to fight that feeling by mapping out the architecture of why it was felt in the first place and that can be extremely difficult because articulating something unknown but felt is like trying to colour a black canvas. Writing fiction stories or painting and drawing images that are formed during these experiences actually support this articulation as it is a form of communication with yourself as your own personal language. Attaining the skills to deal with the feelings or medicating a silence to the emotions do not actually assist you to confront why they are there in the first place and thus you will never really recover from the depressive feelings.
This is the same as forming a 'perfect' life and many people sacrifice their deeper, subjective wants by forming a nuclear existence according to which society or your environment dictates as enabling the happiness (thus the absence of depression), but as you yourself are aware, that doesn't actually help resolve it either. Existence is taking that responsibility by becoming self-conscious and accepting your separateness rather than relying on external factors.
You seem to be a person of will. I have this image of you facing a problem by getting out the wrenches, putting the car up on the lift, and getting your hands covered with oil. That isn't a criticism. You're not an engineer, are you?
That isn't the only way to handle our run ins with the world; physical, social, or psychological, and it's not necessarily the best. Rather than getting more control, it is possible to find your way by giving up the control you have. I suspect it is the only way that will fully resolve our unhappiness or dissatisfaction. If it sounds like that's a lazy excuse for not dealing with your problems, that's exactly what it is. It fits my personality perfectly, as I suspect your approach fits yours.
Quoting TimeLine
Not necessarily. Existence, satisfying existence, can also be learning to accept what you have and to give up your illusions.
I believe I'm at a disadvantage when trying to use this approach. Being on anti-depressant medication seems to really dull the 'unhappy' emotions, making it difficult to identify the indicators in present experiences. Unfortunately, stopping the medication in order to fully feel isn't a very realistic approach in today's world.
I would not recommend stopping medication without proper supervision, however as long as your cognitive capacity remains in tact, which is certainly clear by your highly articulate posts, introspection as you reflect on previously felt experiences can be just as effective. It is really the habit of reflecting with honesty and taking an epicurean approach by effectively considering all potential possibilities that contribute to an experience. As mentioned, sometimes these experiences are too difficult hence the very reason why they are suppressed, and that is why fiction writing or drawing can gradually release those causal factors.
As said in V for Vendetta, artists use lies to tell the truth.
Quoting T Clark
You cannot give up on your illusions simply by accepting them, that is quite simply giving in to your illusions. Giving up your illusions is to accept your own state of nature, to withdraw from relying on other people' points of view and find your own and when you are for yourself, that is when you begin to actually exist.
Quoting T Clark
i have to admit, I really enjoy the way that you write. Your initial post in the other thread about the train was just golden. This will is very much about my survival (both physically and my identity) and prefer to find what is causing the problem rather than continuously cranking the gears as the muffler blows out loud shots of exhaust to the dismay of others. The reality is that I grew up on my own and thus was compelled to a daunting reality that required self-regulation to preserve my own physical well being but also remain virtuous despite having no one protect me. We are all under threat in some way, but I have or at the very least am attempting to find a balance between being strong-willed and independent while remaining gentle and kind as I am naturally. It is my feminine side that has a liking to care for and help support 'fallen angels' if they so choose to accept, those people I find are suffering unnecessarily and it hurts me to see that.
I speak of a different type of control; it is not an absence of considering psychological, social and environmental factors, but rather appreciating that since you are the centre of these experiences, strengthening an understanding of your past will give you the clarity to become one with your present experiences.
What do you consider to be a 'fallen angel', and what sort of support do you typically offer?
I think Bansky pretty much sums it up:
A good person, someone with talent and capacity who may have been hurt in someway and without the right figure in their lives seek comfort in all the wrong places. It is why I chose a career working with disadvantaged children. I too have been at crossroads many times myself, choices that could have led me to very different circumstances. I luckily had a ridiculously strong desire to protect myself and an innate sense of virtue that I wholeheartedly believed in and kept me withdrawn from such dangers. Completely withdrawn, actually. Being on my own since I was very young and having no one to look up to, I feel strong enough now to give love to those children who similarly never had love so that they too can find the strength to take care of themselves.
Not that you are one of those children, but I guess we are all still the same child inside.
where nothing good comes out of false premises.
Depression, as you know, is a distortion of reality.
One can't make a delicious cake out of shit.
That's my understanding of the futility (in essence) of CBT in trying to make a cake out of shit.
I said that from individual experience. CBT doesn't cure depression or make it go away, as anyone with depression would hope. It only addresses the final product of a "botched"/depressed mind.
What you have here is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
"I am am unhappy and am in therapy, but it isn't working."
"Why isn't it working?"
"Why, therapy just doesn't work. It's a useless waste of time."
Sure enough, the therapy didn't work.
If peace of mind were an achievement, it would have to be the achievement of an unpeaceful, striving mind. But it is not an achievement at all, but simply what happens when one stops trying to make a delicious cake out of shit.
I think it's like you say - an individual experience. I believe CBT was an important part of my recovery from depression.
It is quite an achievement for me, following a decade of depression. And the world doesn't feel like shit now, at least for the time being.
But what meaning would you expect there to be? What meaning need there be? There are things you like. What more meaning could be expected or needed?
Vedanta refers to worldly-life, and its fundamental purpose, as "Lila", or play. That's meaning and purpose enough.
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Primarily: You do things that you like.
No matter what anyone claims, that's what we're here for.
(With the caveat: "...without harming others, or being dishonest with yourself".).
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That's a lot of meaning, and all that's needed. Those two things are two of Vedanta's and Hinduism's Purusharthas (life-purposes). (Kama and Dharma).
That caveat, which amounts to Dharma, is what distinguishes you from a selfish hedonist.
That's all that we are.
That "absurdity" is a problem to some Western philosophers and gloomy writers. Some Atheists, lacking the support, "meaning" and "purpose" that some people get from the official, organized Western fundamentalist religious denominations, feel lost and without meaning.
See above.
Over-thinking life is a good description of what comes from many Western philosophers and other writers, who make a nonexistent problem and issue about "meaning".
That "lack of meaning" is a fictitious problem invented by some Atheists who feel that life is meaningless without formal, official, dogmatic fundamentalist Western religion.
Such writers find despair in their alleged lack of meaning, but that's just them. Leave them to their lack of meaning. It's only theirs.
...other than Lila.
Those coincide with some of the other Purusharthas:
Food, shelter, freedom from pain, come under the purushartha called "Artha", or "getting-by". It isn't the primary purpose, but of course is still necessary.
Love, and being there for your family, spouse, significant-other, and best-friends, comes under the category of Dharma.
Dharma can be extended to a larger community, but I hesitate to make that inclusion, because it can be questionable. For example, it seems to me that there isn't anything at all that we can do to save society, and so we aren't responsibility for its dive into the toilet.
Michael Ossipoff
Then, are you advocating complacency? Because it is quite a burden to live with depression as you must know all too well based off of experience with the ill. I've already posted around here about accepting depression and learning to live with it; but, I feel that is a hard task to do.
I don't think accepting or rejecting makes much difference, and certainly not complacency. It's not like a rucksack you can take off. But understanding transforms.
I can't be an internet therapist, but there is indeed a hard task involved in understanding oneself without making that separation of 'me' understanding 'depression'. Depression has to understand and 'see through' itself. Normally, feelings are like the British weather - every five minutes it's different. When a feeling persists and is not obviously caused by a repetitive provocation, it is likely to be the result of a trauma. Trauma produces 'unbearable' feelings ( I use scare quotes because no feeling can be beyond the limits of sensitivity, so strictly it should be 'unacceptable'). One response to such feelings is to press them down from conscious to unconscious and this is depression.
All of which is of little help to anyone who is depressed, except to imply the nature of the hard task, which is to find the feeling behind the feeling. Depression in this understanding is a remedy for a feeling that is worse than feeling depressed, so the cure is to rip the depressive bandage off the unhealed wound. Don't be alone when you do it.
So, according to what you're saying, depression is a coping mechanism, and to get rid of depression one has to understand the reason why there is such a coping mechanism in place. Is that right?
If so, then how is it that depression is such a 'bad' coping mechanism that leads to thoughts about suicide? Or are suicide and depression two separate things? And who gets to decide what feeling they want to feel in the first place, as if depression is a defense mechanism, like a faulty thermostat?
I mean, it's a sad state to live in where most people who are depressed don't get better. What do you attribute that fact to?
Yes, I think so.
Quoting Question
It's bad, but not as bad as what it's coping with, kind of like heroin. And suicide is a great cure for depression as it is for heroin addiction, or any problem that cannot be faced. When you ask who decides, you expose the division between one who feels and cannot cope, and one who copes but cannot feel. to talk about a defence mechanism is to separate oneself from 'it' the mechanism. The end of the depression is the end of the division - I cannot cope and I cannot feel, and yet I feel and cope. There is no other, no illness or syndrome or mechanism or illness or depression, or unconscious trauma,
it is all me.
Quoting Question
It hurts to get better; it is a fate worse than death. You need a friend, and friends are hard to come by, and even harder to recognise.
My rationale was that accepting depression would seem to blur the line between the rational analytic mind and the emotional and emphatic persona. But, accepting doesn't seem to do much at all apart from giving in to the depression and laying in bed all day in hope that the tide recedes and other emotions take hold. There isn't much that can be said about depression apart from the fact that it sucks, and is very elusive and tricky in nature. Thanks for posting anyway, even though no solution seems within sight to pursue after, only apathy and angst.
EDIT: Given the rather bleak situation, I am trying to figure out how to live with the depression. I already take the happy pills along with some rather potent antipsychotic medicine. The combination leaves me rather dulled out; but, able to cope with the depression. I, however, see the futility in addressing the issue ad hoc, when it's rather a specific thing or issue. So to speak, to put a band-aid on top of another band-aid and hope the rumination and angst will subside. I wonder how long I can keep up this double band-aid on a festering and sore 'limb'/psyche.
I don't think the depression will ever go away; but, can't incorporate this aspect of myself into my self-image. I feel like an old man, while still in my relative youth looking for a way out with none in sight. Alright, end rant.
Oh, no, there's nothing I can do to repay you for the advice you've given to countless members throughout the years at the old PF and here. I'm just happy I could rationalize my feeling via this online forum and dialectical method. It helps tremendously to be able to sort through the multitude of thoughts and emotions swelling inside. Although, I do know you aren't a fan of the rationalization part it is essential to understanding the beast that depression is.
I'll watch 'What about Bob?' if you watch Tarkovsky's 'Solaris' if you haven't seen it already. Based on what I know about you and your past I think you'll find it to have a very personal message. I'm not a big fan of comedies, as I'm socially awkward and don't understand jokes that well. For the majority of time, you'd think I'm autistic in person.
Yes, I do like trees and plants. I figure a positive step forward for me is to learn how to play the piano. I think it would be a good outlet for some pent up emotions and such yad ya da.
I'm not in a terrible place, just rather my attitude is the issue. I have a roof over my head, someone that cares about me, and some other stuff that I should be grateful for.
I've also decided to switch my sleep and wake patterns. For some reason, I do better at night when everyone else is asleep and nobody to bother me. My mind picks up around 9 PM until daylight. I figure I can get more done during the day when I'm left alone at night to study or contemplate things in peace.
Do you mind if I ask a personal question? Are you depressed yourself or has that emotion ever 'infected' you during your working years while dealing with other depressed patients? If so, does it bother you? Depression itself does not bother me per se, just the suicidal thoughts. I figure to try and make the best of what I am. I've abused stimulants in the past; but, the artificial motivation is just artificial and my best thoughts are done when sober or in a state of semi depression. There are positives to being depressed also as strange as that sounds. I guess it's just another step in my psycho-evolution.
No, never. I get dispirited, despairing, discouraged, mightily pissed off, sometimes uncaring for self or other, hatred of self and/or other, as well as more pleasant acceptable feelings. But not depressed, as I understand it from others, no fog - the shit is full hd colour and smellovision.
Reversing day and night isn't a big problem AS LONG AS you are actually getting enough quality sleep during the day. People really do need around 8 hours of normal sleep. Poor sleep or insufficient sleep degrades cognitive functions when one is chronically tired; it also aggravates depression. Getting 8 hours of good sleep definitely will not cure depression, but most people feel much better when they get it.
I too enjoy being awake and active late at night (say, up to 3:00 A.M. or so) and if I sleep till noon, I feel good.
I watched it. I already read the story, heard a radio adaptation, and saw at least one other film version. A real classic, and that was a suitably atmospheric version, though the alien planet was strangely absent visually in this version.
The relation of humanity to the alien is one of total incomprehension and horror, and this is the mirror of the individual's relation to himself, and particularly for Kelvin, to his love. I can see why you like it. The inescapable self - beloved horror.
Yes, sleep for me is holy. I am infinitely entertained by my dreams. I have a suspicion that dreams are a sort of glimpse into the future, just in very small pieces. I've had countless deja-vu moments in waking life as if I experienced the situation already foretold in my dreams.
Yes, a very Conradian tale. The ending is superb with Kelvin deciding to live on the alien world. Redemption is also a strong theme in the story as Kelvin performs a form of banishment from society with that final decision. I suppose he could not come to terms with himself over the loss of his loved one. I should read the book also sometime, as I've heard many great things about the book also.
In an earlier post, you were helpful in getting me past the existential angst I was having with regard to the lack of objective meaning and purpose in life.
Lately, I seem to be caught up and affected by the absurdity of how things work, especially in the subatomic and universal realms. It has led me to researching a lot about possible explanations, but I've come up (of course) feeling like I am no closer to the truth of how and why things really exist.
Any thoughts or advice on this?
Many ancient philosophical tendencies sought to promote something like stable peace of mind in their practitioners, including at least some sects of Buddhists, Stoics, and Skeptics.
For contemporary variations on such themes, you might try the work of Tarthang Tulku, such as Openness Mind, or the work of Massimo Pigliucci, for instance. For an example of a contemporary science-based approach inspired in part by such traditions, try the Center for Mindfulness at the University of Massachusetts.
I'm not sure any of these approaches to peace of mind is expressly aligned with the broader philosophical view you've characterized. So far as I'm concerned, there's nothing especially absurd about life, and there is arguably something absurd about the thought that life in general has or must have some intrinsic "greater purpose" of the sort that's often meant by such phrases. The thought that life is "meaningless" or "less meaningful" for those who don't believe in something like such an intrinsic purpose is a conceptual error and bias. How would one quantify "meaningfulness" that way? The fact is, we have similar experiences (of beauty, compassion, awe, transcendence, for example), though we conceptualize these experiences in diverse ways.
So far as our emotional tendencies and "peace of mind" are concerned, I'm not sure it matters exactly how we conceptualize experience, so long as the conceptualization is associated with healthy practice. Along these lines I recommend a practice aimed at cultivating a habit of right diet, exercise, meditation, sleep, work, and company, and at the cultivation of right views rooted primarily in a plain and unembellished understanding of such essential practices. In the context of that practice, it may prove beneficial to cultivate the power of introspection, developing the capacity to recognize and "release" (or "detach from") the more or less subtle thoughts and images, memories and intentions, desires and aversions, emotions and feelings, that naturally tend to occupy and distract attention and lurk in the periphery of awareness in cooperation with perception, movement, posture, and breath.
If one remains inclined to couch his conception of his own life and practice in grander terms without straying into unreasonable cosmology, there are ways to do this while adhering to skeptical principles. There is an attitude and experience of natural piety, characterized for instance by Dewey in the first section of A Common Faith. There is identification of oneself as a member of the community of human beings, the community of living beings, the community of sentient beings -- with the capacity to characterize his own action as action on behalf of and for the sake of all sentient beings in all times and places, and to take this as his purpose.
I think you may underestimate the grievance that our emotional language and anxiety or depression can evoke in a person who is unable to articulate or explain that experience.Self-reflective practice requires the courage to make that choice to search for an honest answer. "Peace" of mind is not found in approaches that momentarily alleviate the tensions, help you swallow it or ignore it or move on, but to ascertain the root causes that eliminates it and the best way this can be done is through cognisance. This detaches us from the subjective to the objective and it no longer controls our emotional responses.
I have met people who display all the characteristics of a happy disposition and positive attitude as their new age practice teaches them, but underlying this remains an anxiety that can easily be provoked; the chalice is clean only on the outside. People often assume a 'danger' to the root causes of such anxiety, as though it is a life and death scenario, that one must simply avoid it at all costs. I think it is the courage to overcome this self-defence mechanism and face reality that is the greatest challenge but ultimately the only way to finding this 'peace' - and such a practice is individual.
Whereas practices such as CBT and mindfulness (check out MBSR) do have scientific backing, and have proven their effectiveness. Mindfulness is quite probably the most effective way to combat depression and anxiety, both on a mental and on a biological level. As for more "subtle" forms of anxiety/depression - that's what mindfulness does. Slowly you peel back on the layers, and dissolve deeper & more subtle problems.
infinity can make our lives seem short to compare against, but with infinity, there are no limits. no large, no small, no long, no short; only points of perspective. life grants us the perception of limitation and a perspective view point, gives us minds to engage with, among an infinite number of component parts, and a time to wonder at the wonders of it all. every mind a functional part of an eternal process that knows no boundaries of time or space; infinitely interacting with itself as "each other", and returning to itself to rejoice, and renew. nothing is ever lost in a universe without beginning, end or limit, out-side of what is only imagined to be reality, as reality imagines itself. death marks only the boundaries of the perspective imaginations of ourselves, not out infinite living universe. in part, we belong to the universe and the universe belongs to us... in reality, we are the universe and will continue to become more of what we already are, in an infinite number of ways. Remember with love, the light without limit, at every point along the way!
I agree about taking a holistic approach.
Quoting TimeLine
I disagree on this. This isn't why mindfulness is successful. Being calm is merely a side effect. It's successful because it is perhaps the only process that puts the body and the mind in a process of self-regulation - there are biological and neurological changes that happen while someone is meditating. This is in addition to aiding someone develop spiritually - spiritual strength itself being one of the key components of mental well-being.
Among the main biological indicators, mindfulness has been shown to reduce oxidative stress, and also help the body repair existent cellular damage. I've spoken with several therapists, some of whom have worked with elite athletes - mindfulness is, according to most of them, the absolute key to self-improvement & performance.
The problem with talk therapy is that it engages the person with their past, and the past is all nonsense. All that matters is the present moment, not silly games of the mind. Mindfulness helps you detach from the silly games of the mind - it doesn't matter anymore that such and such thoughts cross your mind. Your conditioning, from your past, becomes irrelevant. Psychotherapy is all BS, precisely because it is playing games - it is the mind playing games with you. Uhhh this person is obsessed about smoking, because their father didn't let them smoke, or this other man is obsessed about his wife who cheated on him, etc. It doesn't matter - they are all games of the mind, and even if you solve one game, the mind will find another one - because it is just the nature of the mind. That is why people who experience anxiety find that everyday, there is a new problem, a new cause of the anxiety.
You have to stop playing the games of the mind - you have to jump out of the vicious circle. That is not possible, except by meditation. You cannot escape from the mind by the mind - that is the absurdity of talk therapy.
https://donaldrobertson.name/2013/01/18/cognitive-distancing-in-stoicism/
Your past is not nonsense and forms the fabric of who you are, of your perceptions and how you identify with the world. If you experience anxiety, there could be a plethora of possible factors that are causally rooted in your past that talk therapy enables you to articulate and indeed you may very well realise that you are being emotional about something for reasons that are irrational, such as inculturation or some childhood experience. The subconscious mind will continuously influence your emotional behaviour if you do not coherently articulate why it is prompting you to have such emotional responses and detaching yourself without actually understanding is only a solution but not a resolution.
Mindfulness assists in the promotion of good mental health and the practice helps reduce the disabling effects of bad mental health - depression or anxiety - and therefore the stress that it has on your physical health. Hence it is calming. This detachment is a way to teach a person to be objective rather than rely on their emotions - to not skip the B in the ABC technique - and it calms a person who would otherwise experience an anxiousness that disturbs their capacity to reason adequately. If a person is not ready to talk, if they continue to present difficulties in finding that inner centre, I would not recommend it either until they can establish such self-regulation, but it is a natural evolution from that that a person should find the courage to reach further still - as the OP is experiencing - to link the network of possible causes.
No, I am not my past. My past is my ego, and the conditioning of my mind. My true self is beyond all conditioning and all events in time, and cannot be touched by them. Seeing beyond the ego - that is already to be free of the problems of the ego.
Quoting TimeLine
Yes, there probably are. But why would I bother with that, when I can extinguish the problem from its very roots by detaching myself from my conditioning, whatever that conditioning happens to be?
Articulating problems does not solve them. It is awareness into the problems - choiceless awareness as Krishnamurti would say, that discards the so-called problems.
Quoting TimeLine
That is a waste of time, because it is playing the games of the mind. The mind likes to nurture this self-importance and narcissism, and investigate its history, look for causes, say "oh, this is why", etc. as if finding a why will solve the problem. It likes to feel that it has solved problems, only to later find out it has created 10 others. To articulate stuff - to go in the labyrinth of the mind - is already to lose the game. The mind is cunning - it can play with you for your entire life. Escaping the traps of the mind, and going beyond the mind - then you escape whatsoever problems the mind has - they do not concern you anymore.
Try Christianity. The only cure for nihilistic emo's.
Rubbish, 1 in 7 people do not suffer from major depression. It is only a very few.
This is psychobabble. You have an ego whether you like it or not. The ego is merely a word that defines 'I' or the you and it is our will and reason that directs this 'I' toward the right or wrong by choice. It is your reason that you ought to ensure is free from this conditioning, which takes time and a continuous desire to improve. To say you have no ego is ridiculous.
Quoting Agustino
You're not extinguishing anything. A person can see a crime and delude themselves into believing that they saw nothing. We are very good at repressing, misrepresenting, ignoring actual, real experience. Anxiety is this unconscious, deeper awareness of that truth, of that reality, this emotional response that is prompting us with feelings that we cannot articulate because we have repressed it from consciousness. Deep down, though, we know. This is the whole point about why our rational faculties are paramount and why we ought not to leave it to disorder. It is finding the courage to accept the actuality.
Quoting Agustino
This is just silly. You are playing with your mind by choosing not to understand it. And you have the audacity to reward yourself as egoless? You are never a waste of time.
Sure.
Quoting TimeLine
But where did I say that I have no ego?
Quoting TimeLine
Yes - and that has nothing to do with psychological analysis, communication, or something similar. It has to do with insight and awareness.
Quoting TimeLine
Well yes, to a certain extent. What does this have to do with communication though? Communication can itself be the problem - indeed, it is almost the characteristic par excellence of the neurotic to go to someone else to be told what they have to do. The neurotic always seeks reassurance - from the doctor, from the psychologist, from the psychiatrist, from the teacher - etc. This is the disease itself. I am reminded of this clip of Krishnamurti:
Quoting TimeLine
The mind cannot be understood from within the mind - by transcending the mind, the discursive faculties, you also thereby understand them. The identification with the mind and with the ego is the problem.
Both approaches have yielded some benefit for me. The success of each likely depends on your personality type. Being a very logically-minded person, I found CBT provided the greater benefit. Having an understanding of the why behind my thought and feelings helped me get a grip on the negative self-talk. For me, meditation on its own was a way to relax and forget about life for a while, but didn't help me address my core beliefs. That being said, the mindfulness you develop during meditation is quite helpful when it comes to CBT. Awareness of thought becomes much keener; identifying/stopping/refuting the irrational thought processes becomes a lot easier.
What is it in my remarks that lead you to suspect I underestimate the severity of the problem? Surely our conceptual and linguistic habits may contribute to the burden of psychic suffering. But I doubt a cure may be rooted principally in improved habits of speech. A practice aimed at well-being must involve much more than speeches; and it seems to me the speeches most worth emphasizing in this connection are speeches that inform and motivate right action more thoroughly. Moreover, I see no reason to suppose there is only one right way, or only one best way, to conceptualize a relevant range of action, nature, or experience.
Likewise I'm not sure how your comments about "momentary alleviation of tension" pertain to my remarks. What I have in mind is a lifelong practice and discipline, not occasional escape through fleeting distractions.
What sort of "root causes" do you have in mind? To what extent, on your view, should we expect our "tensions" to be "eliminated" in the span of a lifetime? At this point your remarks become grammatically unclear:
Do you mean to say something called "cognizance" is the best way to identify root causes of psychic tension, anxiety, depression? And this same thing, cognizance, is the best way to eliminate those root causes and their effects? And this same thing, cognizance, "detaches us from the subjective" and orients us to the objective, until the root causes of psychic tension no longer control our emotional responses?
If that's more or less what you meant to say, then I must ask, what is the activity or phenomenon you call "cognizance", and what is it cognizance of, and what sort of practice of cognizance do you recommend? What sort of things are the "root causes" of suffering on your view? How does the practice of "cognizance" identify and distinguish them, and what sorts of actions or habits or dispositions does it produce in the one who cultivates his power of cognizance and learns to recognize "root causes" of suffering?
Quoting TimeLine
I suppose I've met people like those you describe. Only I don't think their display of happiness is as convincing as you portray it here.
Quoting TimeLine
I'm inclined to agree.
Quoting TimeLine
I suppose all practice is individual. But there are features of anyone's practice that are shared or shareable with others. And no one's practice is unique in every respect.
For my part, the Roman Stoics. Epictetus, Seneca, Marcus Aurelius. Musonius Rufus if you can find his work. CBT has its basis in Stoicism.
"Happiness and freedom begin with a clear understanding of one principle: Some things are within our control, and some things are not. It is only after you have faced up to this fundamental rule and learned to distinguish between what you can and can't control that inner tranquility and outer effectiveness become possible."--Epictetus
Fair play to ya for sharing something personal and honest. You are a philosopher of the soul! One of the few advantages of being depressed is that one cannot be arsed living the lie.. to the same extent as others do.
I think you are quite right to seek solace in Philosophy. Recall Neitzsche's last act of sanity before he fled from the world. To be honest, I think you will find more consolation in Philosophy than you might in CBT which might help somewhat, but at the end of the day, is perhaps little more than a set of distraction techniques.
You should be careful with your depression.. you have a kid... and depression kills people. Therefore before I continue with my own 10 cents, I would ask that you let us know if you are getting real help in the sense that your family Dr and therapist is aware of your depression. (I must confess at the outset that I am a physician) and I would be apprehensive of such a conversation with you, unless it has been clearly established that you are in a 'safe place' and you are not in danger of doing any harm to yourself.
If you wish to contact me off-forum my email is [email protected]. Once you confirm that you are not in a real bad place, or at least that you are not there 'alone' I would be happy to offer some potential guidance.
Mind yourself! Life sucks and humans are gross, but there is much beauty in the world.
M
Think about socrates. In my opinion the wisest philosopher of all time. He believed that the art, if you want to call it that, of philsophy should be confined to conversations between small groups of men. He didn't believe in writing nor preaching. He believed in seeking answers by asking questions, and thus deriving meaning from other peoples perspectives by challenging them and simultaneously relating them to ours. Knowledge begins with understanding and this can only be attained through relationships with other men. I dont know if that helped and i cant help but feel as though my thoughts are incomplete. Let me know what you think
It is not "speech" that I am concerned about like rumination, but rather making sense of our emotional responses and feelings of anxiety or depression using language, floating it up to the surface of consciousness by giving the feeling an arrow of time that contains the experience into some linear story.
Most, if not all, of our mental suffering is rooted in this lack of understanding, which is why we end up experiencing these emotional responses that explain unconscious knowledge (intuition) that we cannot explain or articulate. We just feel anxious, we feel depressed, or worried but we cannot explain why.
That feeling or emotional response is the 'I' or the actual person and since most of what we are at cognitive level is the language given to us by our environment and society, we have not yet learnt how to talk or communicate from that place within, what we actually want. It is like a clean slate. Hence the biblical concept of 'being born again' or transcendence that many philosophers speak of, to slowly start merging the two - language and the 'I' - to start communicating independently.
This is why art - in particular fictional stories - help paint that picture because it offers the opportunity for someone to think independently and in a self-reflective manner, some comparative analysis or mirroring in a domain outside of reality and thus they are not being force-fed definitions or explanations about why they are feeling that way - something that New Ageism or society and the Kardashians etc stuff offers.
You end up piecing together fragments of these feelings and experiences that sit just below the surface of consciousness and make sense of it consciously and when we start to make sense of it all, that empowers us to make decisions that are genuine or correct and lead to an actual resolution. If, on the other hand, you seek out artificial sources that manage those emotional responses, you are not directed to the source or reasons why you are having them in the first place and are simply prolonging the problem by ignoring it.
That is the point about "peace" - it is really that empowerment that stems of honesty.
Thanks for your kind words. I don't mind sharing with the forum. There may be others who benefit from the discussion.
I am indeed in a better place these days. I've been pretty stable for the past 3 years, consult my doctor regularly, adhere to my prescribed medication, and undergo rTMS (repetitive trans-cranial magnetic stimulation). I also have a spouse, mother, and boss who are very supportive.
I must admit I've been tested over the past several months, with my ex-wife trying to relocate my two girls (11 and almost 10) to a city 6 hours away. However, my mood has held up surprisingly well.
I would appreciate any further wisdom you are able to provide!
That's definitely part of the formula I live by now. Maintaining and cultivating relationships definitely contribute to big picture, along with sleep, exercise, and diet.
Quoting TimeLine
Yes, it is all too easy to slip into negative coping mechanisms, which only serve to distract and prolong or add to suffering.
It seems to me we're roughly agreed on the value and character of the range of experiences and practices you've emphasized.
I offer a broader emphasis in suggesting that it's not only or even primarily improved "talk" and "stories" and "explanations" that flow from and promote the sort of personal unity and sincerity you depict.
i believe to achieve peace of mind we first must look at the entirety of ourselves not just our brain
i dont think anyone here can argue that the healthiest things a human body may consume is unmolested natural food from the earth .... have you ever noticed that if you eat pizza you can easily overeat it well beyond the point you are hungry ? .... has that ever happened with a carrot ? or perhaps a melon ? .... something intelligent happens internally when we put the correct energy source into our digestive system ..... when you eat natural foods , you naturally cease eating when your stomach is no longer requiring food .... you do not rely on the brain for that decision .... what does this have to do with anything ? .....
if you complain about your engine , and you give it kerosene instead of racing fuel ... you wont get the most you can ...and it may not be enough .... so my first advice is start by eating healthy ...so you can have mental clarity , which is very difficult to do when a body is full of chemicals
as far as how to achieve peace ..... that is everyone's journey .... you do not have to add anything to who you are to find peace .... on the contrary , you have to strip of your identity that has cast a fog over your memory of who you are in essence .... the truth is already in you , you have to begin by question who you are ...... are you the collection of memories from your mind ? ... so if in 2012 your year would have been different than it actually was does that mean you would not be you ?? ..... of course not right ???
so then why do you believe the memories you do have is who you are , .... it is simply what you have experienced ...nothing else ...... when you let go , the answers will already be there and it will seem almost funny that you already knew they were there .
don't run from adversity .... it is then we are most likely to wake up from the illusion of self :)