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The New Center, the internet, and philosophy outside of academia

Moliere December 04, 2015 at 09:34 16100 views 64 comments
Reading this from @darthbarracuda :


From Wikipedia:

Brassier himself, however, does not identify with the speculative realist movement, and, further, debates that there even is such a movement, stating "The 'speculative realist movement' exists only in the imaginations of a group of bloggers promoting an agenda for which I have no sympathy whatsoever: actor-network theory spiced with pan-psychist metaphysics and morsels of process philosophy. I don’t believe the internet is an appropriate medium for serious philosophical debate; nor do I believe it is acceptable to try to concoct a philosophical movement online by using blogs to exploit the misguided enthusiasm of impressionable graduate students. I agree with Deleuze’s remark that ultimately the most basic task of philosophy is to impede stupidity, so I see little philosophical merit in a ‘movement’ whose most signal achievement thus far is to have generated an online orgy of stupidity."


I went traipsing about to find what Brassier was on about. I have next to zero knowledge of speculative realism, having only come across the term in our various conversations. I found a kind of organization which calls itself The New Centre for Research & Practice The first article/sales-pitch that didn't include said title spoke highly of their mission: http://thoughtcatalog.com/daniel-coffeen/2014/10/accelerate-your-thinking-join-the-new-centre-for-research-and-practice/


Clearly the dog in this fight is whether or not spending time on the internet can improve or exercise one's serious philosophical skills. I imagine most of us would disagree with said statement. But I find it an interesting one, all the same. Is this line of thinking just woo for smart people? Is it a replacement for religion? Is it the smorgasbord of stupidity which Brassier claims?

Perhaps these particular blogs are. I couldn't say, because I haven't taken any of their courses. Even more so, it would seem to me that given my position I wouldn't even be able to say, if what Brassier says is true. At least I wouldn't be able to say so in a serious philosophical manner.

But are all online philosophy endeavors non-serious? Or incapable of sincerity? Or fruitless?

I must admit that I share some skepticism with Brassier based off what I've looked at here. It is, perhaps, one of my more prominent fears that I dupe myself. But, all the same, I can't say I know, and I'm also open to trying out new things and seeing where they go. And I certainly disagree that the medium is opposed to serious philosophical debate. There has to be some kind of relationship there, something that binds you together, as with any debate, such as a commitment to sober thought and analysis. And it seems to me that the fora have had some really good moments. Not to say that Brassier's skepticism is unwarranted, given how the internet seems to encourage people to express knee-jerk reactions more than really debate a topic, but I wouldn't say that it's a foregone conclusion.

So, what do you think about "The New Centre...", the blogs associated, and so forth?

Comments (64)

The Great Whatever December 04, 2015 at 12:14 #4715
I'm looking at the course listings, and my first thought is, it's telling that these are all 'multi-interidsciplanry approaches to post-21st century reactions to the rise of anti-post-Hegelian science' sorts of things, and there's no, say, Linear Algebra course.
Moliere December 04, 2015 at 15:16 #4717
Reply to The Great Whatever Totally.

But what do you think about the idea in a more general sense?
The Great Whatever December 04, 2015 at 16:32 #4720
Reply to Moliere I think the ideal school has people living and interacting in physical proximity. I'm old-school that way. Departments on traditional campuses are alright, but I actually like the old Greek model even better. I like the idea of research as a lifelong joint project and lifestyle, rather than an ephemeral meeting of people to swap notes at 'conferences' or in 'lectures' and meetings.
Soylent December 04, 2015 at 16:59 #4721
Perhaps a criticism of internet philosophy is that it is a user-directed search that can land upon an isolated community such that an internet philosophical movement is a collection of individuals that share a common cognitive bias and continually reaffirm that bias in their own blogs. Of course the case can be made that the same happens in academia and schools, but if the internet (search engines) directed you to opposition to your position in the way a library might arrange books by topic, there might be more of a realization that there is serious work opposed to the movement. I wouldn't categorize philosophy on the internet as fruitless, but it can give the appearance of a greater understanding and consensus and should be cautious of becoming a "safe" community absent of dissent.
Ciceronianus December 04, 2015 at 17:04 #4722
I know there is a "College of Stoic Philosophers" associated, I believe, with the New Stoa, both online. There are some professional philosophers involved with it, but have no idea what it does or teaches (I suspect it has something to do with Stoicism, though). I assume it's potentially a serious effort. Obviously I don't participate in it. I spend what free time I have playing chess, shooting clays, reading and napping. But I don't think the fact that this New Centre is online necessarily renders it frivolous. I know of respected universities which offer graduate degrees obtained through online courses, and it's likely the way things will go in the future, which would have the sad result that students may no longer have the opportunity to demand that statues and names be removed from campus as they offend their sensibilities.
Pneumenon December 05, 2015 at 08:13 #4761
Generally speaking, is the quality of internet philosophy low? Yeah. But to say that it's impossible for anyone to do any serious philosophy on the internet just reeks of unwarranted self-importance by academics. What, do lecture halls contain special vibrations that make you better at philosophy or something?
Thorongil December 05, 2015 at 19:16 #4776
That quote is exactly the kind of thing some arrogant, pointy-headed tenure track professor would say. He ran the lottery and somehow got into the academic establishment, probably thanks to nepotism, and now has the family jewels heavy enough to trash anyone outside of his little bubble, including his own apparent admirers.

Philosophy ought not to be done outside of the academy? Tell that to Spinoza, Hume, Schopenhauer, and a host of other vastly more important thinkers than the paper thin light weight and peddler in obscurantism known as Ray Brassier - all of whom never operated within the academy or indeed even repudiated it. It's a shame such a smug, backstabbing plebeian has the gall to fancy himself the judge of what is worthy philosophy.
Pneumenon December 05, 2015 at 19:22 #4777
Reply to Thorongil No verbal Judo here. More like verbal baseball bat to the cranium. :-O

In all seriousness, it never ceases to amaze me that academics in the humanities - the people who never get tired of prating about "equality" - are such elitist asswipes.
Phil December 06, 2015 at 01:33 #4807
Vitriol aside, I do think that Brassier has a point. When speaking of the hard sciences, usually in hushed tones, people would never really expect that a complete amateur, with little to no formal training would be accepted by the scientific community, especially not in the modern sense of today. However, when it comes to the humanities, people assume it is simply just people using fancy words and bullshitting each other. Therefore, any unsubstantiated, or unthought opinion is as good as any other.

Let's just use PF and TPF as examples. Most of what is passed for philosophy on these boards is half-cooked. Some semblance of argument is put forward and then the name calling and arrogant tones begin. I would assume that many here are not formally academically trained in philosophy? Philosophy and Humanities majors are "usually" trained to make and defend their points rigorously, to take things to their logical conclusions and to be open to contradictory information. The average human does not do this.

Sure, Hume, Spinoza, Schopenhauer were not part of the academic club, (which is untrue because Schopenhauer tried to become a professor, and Hume worked directly with the staff of Oxford and Edinburgh universities whilst writing his Histories) but they were also exceptionally well educated. They really weren't just some amateurs. Does this mean that philosophy, or any academic pursuit is only meaningful if pursued inside of the academy? No, certainly not, but the bar for those outside of the academy and its rules are set higher, partly because the work created is so poor. Instead of getting angry and calling names, look to yourself and exceed the standards. Should make you a better thinker and writer. My two cents from both inside and outside of academia...
Moliere December 06, 2015 at 02:44 #4811
Quoting Phil
. . . but the bar for those outside of the academy and its rules are set higher. . .


That's what interests me most. What, precisely, is that bar? Higher or no, what are the standards in the first place?
Phil December 06, 2015 at 02:55 #4812
To be honest, good philosophy outside of academia is literary. With few exceptions, non-academics will never be published in academic journals. That does not mean that those rare individuals are without voice. Literature, journalism and essays are strong ways to influence the conversation from the outside.

I tend to look at writers like Camus, Kafka, Asimov or Orwell. Many also contributed to news journals and wrote more personal essays. Technically I would classify These people alongside Hume, who was known as an Historian, rather than philosopher in his day.

As for the bar, abstract though this may be, would come back to novelty of insight and rigor in argumentation. Compare Georges Bataille and Sam Harris. One is quite obviously philosophy, the other, controversial to say the least.
Pneumenon December 06, 2015 at 03:35 #4815
Quoting Phil
No, certainly not, but the bar for those outside of the academy and its rules are set higher, partly because the work created is so poor.


But Brassier said,

I don’t believe the internet is an appropriate medium for serious philosophical debate;


He's not saying that internet philosophy must be held to a higher standard. He's saying that you literally cannot do philosophy outside of academia. Which is hogwash.

And I'm sure he bloviates about "structural inequality" day and night, being a humanities academic...
The Great Whatever December 06, 2015 at 03:45 #4818
Out of curiosity, Pneumenon, where on the internet can you do serious philosophy? The only thing I can think of is academic journals published online, which clearly isn't what you mean.

I am aware of literally no place on the internet where you can have a good philosophical conversation. Your egalitarian view sounds good on paper, but then when you hit brass tacks, there are places where good philosophy is done, and the internet is not one of them. Is that a coincidence?
Pneumenon December 06, 2015 at 04:11 #4824
Reply to The Great Whatever

I've had philosophical conversations with people over the internet that were just as good as the ones I've had in academia. As to having consistently good conversations, that's another story - academia is better for that. That is to say, you may not find an online community with consistently good philosophical conversation going on, but any sufficiently large philosophical community will probably have a few people capable of such a conversation.

That being said, Brassier's idea that the internet is "not an appropriate medium" would seem to suggest that an online community that produces good philosophy is something we can't have, which I find implausible.
Phil December 06, 2015 at 04:15 #4827
Reply to Pneumenon The irony being that Brassier owes much of his current popularity in no small part due to pop culture and the Internet. I feel though in part, you greatly dislike the humanities. And that is a topic I find far more interesting
Pneumenon December 06, 2015 at 04:18 #4828
Quoting Phil
I feel though in part, you greatly dislike the humanities. And that is a topic I find far more interesting


I'm flattered.
Phil December 06, 2015 at 04:30 #4830
Reply to Pneumenon jests aside, you have mentioned supposed hypocrisy, aloofness, and elitism and I am genuinely curious why you believe that to be so.
The Great Whatever December 06, 2015 at 04:34 #4832
Reply to Pneumenon But then it bears asking, if such a community is something we could have, why don't we have it? Again, it's nice in theory.

Universities are old institutions. They were built painfully and slowly. It shouldn't be expected that other fora for the same caliber of discussion could just pop up overnight for no reason.
Pneumenon December 06, 2015 at 04:36 #4833
Quoting Phil
jests aside, you have mentioned supposed hypocrisy, aloofness, and elitism and I am genuinely curious why you believe that to be so.


1) The humanities have a very strong current of ostensibly egalitarian sentiment.
2) There is a great deal of elitism in academia.

I don't think either of those are controversial.

Quoting The Great Whatever
But then it bears asking, if such a community is something we could have, why don't we have it?

Universities are old institutions. They were built painfully and slowly. It shouldn't be expected that other fora for the same caliber of discussion could just pop up overnight for no reason.


I don't think that we can build an online version of the Stoa from scratch in a decade. But if we take Brassier's lead, then we won't even start, now, will we?
The Great Whatever December 06, 2015 at 04:39 #4834
Quoting Pneumenon
I don't think that we can build an online version of the Stoa from scratch in a decade. But if we take Brassier's lead, then we won't even start, now, will we?


Well, I think there are a couple problems. The first is, the university is an old system that was built slowly and painfully. We can't expect other fora for the same quality of work to just spring up overnight for no reason. So yes, the internet is new. It doesn't have the same social institutions underpinning it. It has other interesting social institutions that I think are good for other purposes, and that you can't find in real life, certainly not in academia. But its virtues don't include good philosophical discussion.

Second, I really think that part of a good academic community is living and working in physical proximity. Being an academic, to me, means being dedicated to seriously trying to understand a topic as a lifestyle. I don't think the internet, now anyway, is at all amenable to that level of dedication and seriousness, and there is the problem of physical distance as well.
Pneumenon December 06, 2015 at 04:45 #4835
Quoting The Great Whatever
Second, I really think that part of a good academic community is living and working in physical proximity. Being an academic, to me, means being dedicated to seriously trying to understand a topic as a lifestyle. I don't think the internet, now anyway, is at all amenable to that level of dedication and seriousness, and there is the problem of physical distance as well.


I think that there are enough people who come home from work every day and immediately get on the computer for such things to begin popping up, given enough time, at least when we're looking at it from the "dedication" angle. If some guy works at a boring job, then spends all his leisure time contributing to an online philosophy community, then we might have something good going on, provided that nobody minds the "internet socializing loser" stigma.

As to working in physical proximity - that's an intriguing point. Why is physical proximity necessary? It didn't stop Kant from replying to Hume, for example. Then again, I notice that you often take the ancient Greek stuff as a model. Are you doing that here? And if so, what's your motive?
The Great Whatever December 06, 2015 at 04:53 #4837
Quoting Pneumenon
It didn't stop Kant from replying to Hume, for example.


It did, though.

Quoting Pneumenon
If some guy works at a boring job, then spends all his leisure time contributing to an online philosophy community, then we might have something good going on, provided that nobody minds the "internet socializing loser" stigma.


But the problem is, I don't think it's 'leisure' at all, if by that you mean something opposed to work. The ideal academic life is one in which there is no distinction between the two, because what you do is simultaneously deeply enjoyable and serious. That is something that I think is missing from online communities, including this one, seriousness. People argue without reading, when they're contradicted they get offended and don't want to probe any deeper, it's just a kind of game of verbal jousting. There is no genuine desire here to spend hours conducting serious research and digging deeply into a topic that there is a serious effort to understand. A mind can't be sustained on that sort of thing, it needs substance.

Quoting Pneumenon
Then again, I notice that you often take the ancient Greek stuff as a model. Are you doing that here? And if so, what's your motive?


Greek philosophy was a historical anomaly, and utterly extraordinary. Whatever the material conditions were that allowed it to exist as it did, it was something precious. Modern philosophy doesn't have quite the same depth of community or commitment to understanding life on its own terms. It is 'professional' and exists in the universities alongside other 'professions.' Again, the ideal academic life is one in which there is neither profession nor vacation. Modern philosophers for the most part are just regular people who do a certain kind of thought-work as a 'day job' Sure when they go to the pub they talk about certain things other people wouldn't, but even then one gets the impression they're chatting about 'work stuff.'. Once they clock out they want to fuck their wives and go to the Bahamas or whatever. There is a kind of lack of seriousness there, a separation between 'work life' and 'real life,' where at the end of the day there's a sense in which the latter is what really matters, and philosophy is a kind of professional game. But still, I think the university is more serious than the internet, by far, because while on the clock, people think seriously.
Pneumenon December 06, 2015 at 05:03 #4838
I dunno. I guess it depends on why you think the internet is generally less serious. Maybe it's anonymity?

At any rate, I think that humanities departments are, by and large, on their way out. There will always be a philosophy department at Yale for the children of CEOs who want to study it, but non-elite universities as we know them will go the way of the thylacine. With the rising percentage of adjunct faculty, the steady encroachment of corporate models, bureaucratic parasitism, and so forth, I foresee universities become job-training daycares for middle-class kids within the next three decades or so, with maybe a few elite institutions remaining as they are. Maybe we need to look into building philosopher communes or something. Meh. Not sure where to go from here.
The Great Whatever December 06, 2015 at 05:09 #4839
Quoting Pneumenon
I foresee universities become job-training daycares for middle-class kids within the next three decades or so


This is what they already are, at the undergraduate level. But then, I kind of think the graduate model is where it should start anyway. I really don't see the point of the undergrad system other than to perpetuate adolescence and make money. You don't really learn anything as an undergrad, and it's not because of age, it's because of the system.

I would like for genuine philosophical communities to make a comeback, but like I said, when they happened in Greece that was extraordinary, not the rule. I don't see it happening. There is a fundamental disconnect with that way of life and the modern one: it's not a matter of certain contingent things about life being out of whack, but the values that determine what people think a life should consist of to begin with are so foreign to those interests that there's no connection.
Moliere December 06, 2015 at 06:41 #4848
Quoting Pneumenon
Maybe we need to look into building philosopher communes or something. Meh. Not sure where to go from here.


Now that would be a dream come true for me.

Just to note.

In some way my friendship groups -- who I remain in contact with -- from university were like this. We lived together, we read books together, we put on philosophy talks together in public and tried to promote philosophy as a group. While we maintain contact we've hit the diaspora at this point -- to the point of living in different states. It would be nice to have that closeness over philosophy again.

Not sure if "commune" would be the preferred model. I'd prefer "collective" -- since I think anarchist spaces are healthier and more prone to longer lives. [since they do recognize individual needs in addition to collective needs]
Pneumenon December 06, 2015 at 06:43 #4849
Quoting Moliere
Not sure if "commune" would be the preferred model. I'd prefer "collective" -- since I think anarchist spaces are healthier and more prone to longer lives. [since they do recognize individual needs in addition to collective needs]


I wasn't talking about Marxism, just communal living. Really my thinking was something along the lines of "secular monastery." It's fashionable to talk shit about asceticism (given our culture's permissiveness fetish), but I think that a community that looks down on wanton self-indulgence would be a good place for philosophy.
Thorongil December 06, 2015 at 07:02 #4850
Reply to Pneumenon People like Brassier are already fossilized dinosaurs, and because they can't see past their own noses, they imagine the asteroid hasn't actually hit them. As you point out, several asteroids have already hit academia, and especially the humanities. It may still represent the lesser of two evils (being a professor as opposed to being a menial laborer of some kind is always going to be more amenable to contemplative persons) but it doesn't negate the fact that it's still an evil. The corporatization of higher education is nigh complete, and humanities departments have felt the full brunt of it. There are scores of enormously intelligent people who would make fine professors and professional scholars who simply do not make it through the system, through no fault of their own. Meanwhile, those who do tend to develop an elitist mentality like Brassier's. What he probably doesn't realize is that he has merely played the lottery and won. Nor does he seem to understand that being educated is not measured by having three meaningless letters next to one's name. What would he do if his present institution fired him due to budget cuts and he couldn't find work after that? I suspect he might whistle a different tune.

Quoting The Great Whatever
Universities are old institutions. They were built painfully and slowly. It shouldn't be expected that other fora for the same caliber of discussion could just pop up overnight for no reason.


What makes you assume that universities do have a higher caliber of discussion? The pomposity and vanity is certainly of a higher caliber, but this is to describe sophistry of the worst kind, not philosophy. "Professional philosophy" is almost an oxymoron, for in reality it amounts to little more than a good old boys club of spineless, egomaniacal careerists. They feel the pressing need to live well, support families, and idle away their time on the public purse. They do not feel any pressing need to be wise. Huge amounts of wasted paper and bandwidth are used each year to publish literature that no one but this same clique ever reads. If you count writing in tortuous academic prose, with the occasional bit of symbolic logic thrown in every once and while to show off, as "high caliber" philosophical writing, then I'm afraid I don't see it. More academics ought to heed the Spartan maxim that he who knows how to speak knows also the right time for speaking. They ought not produce more chaff to be blown away almost as soon as it is written. Instead, write only if one has something important to say. As Christopher Hitchens once said, everyone has a book in them, but perhaps in most cases that's where it ought to stay.

To me, the quality of philosophical writing in general, whether on the internet or from the academy, is piss poor at present, for I have found nothing of any real enduring value published among so called contemporary philosophers. The charge both analytic and continental philosophers accuse each other of, that of being morbidly useless and hopelessly obscure windbags, is true of them both. And seeing as these two camps pretty well exhaust the category of "professional philosophy" today, the whole discipline is not worth anyone's time. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the ideal of the university system, and realize there is a need to codify and organize serious scholarship on various topics, but it is the furthest it's ever been to reaching this ideal right now, especially in philosophy.
Thorongil December 06, 2015 at 07:03 #4851
Reply to Pneumenon A secular monastery is precisely what I greatly lament doesn't exist in this day and age. If only they did, then I should be the first to sign up!
Pneumenon December 06, 2015 at 07:16 #4852
Quoting Thorongil
(being a professor as opposed to being a menial laborer of some kind is always going to be more amenable to contemplative persons)


You might be surprised. Right now I work at a factory, doing the same thing over and over. When your work is so menial that it requires literally no attention, you get to space out and think about anything you want. Perhaps that's why Socrates chose to be a stonemason. ;)
Thorongil December 06, 2015 at 07:18 #4853
Reply to Pneumenon True, I was speaking in generalities (and partially of myself).
Pneumenon December 06, 2015 at 07:20 #4854
Reply to Thorongil Of course, I'm nitpicking here, but I see all of your points. People who become tenure-track professors imagine that they have some special merit that allowed them to do so. And they do have a special merit - the same one as people who win the lottery.

What we need is to begin building a system supported on an entirely volunteer basis. If this sounds impossible, I humbly ask that you consider the case of open-source software. Ubuntu Linux is a highly efficient and user-friendly OS built for free by people who simply had the time on their hands and the will to do so. Ditto for every other piece of open source software. If they can do it, why can't we?
The Great Whatever December 06, 2015 at 15:07 #4870
Quoting Thorongil
What makes you assume that universities do have a higher caliber of discussion?


Man, I'm not assuming it, I've witnessed it. Professionals in their field are often arrogant, yes. But they also spend a good portion of their lives working on their subject, and just like you wouldn't expect some random person to have the skills of a plumber, you can't expect some random person to be as good at discussing that topic as someone who devotes their life to it.
Baden December 06, 2015 at 15:16 #4872
When I first saw Brassier's quote a while back, it did kind of bug me, but on reflection I have to say the elitism of university academics is to an extent justified. Doing a PhD and devoting your life to research/teaching/writing in a subject is a huge and ongoing commitment that most of us here don't have to (and wouldn't want to) make. So, I don't really begrudge them their elitism and I think it's fair to say that serious progress in philosophy as in the sciences will continue to be made through the tough mental grind that academics put in. Good luck to them, I say. I see our task on forums like this as primarily one of edifying ourselves and each other rather than pushing forward the boundaries of knowledge. Not that I see that as impossible (we have some really high quality posters here) but just not what we're about generally. And we don't have to be.

Edit: (Wrote this while @The Great Whatever was posting. Kind of saying the same thing, I guess.)
Moliere December 06, 2015 at 16:20 #4873
Reply to Baden Yeah, I really don't mean to spark an anti-academic/academic type of dichotomy. I have good friends who are in the academy, and their work certainly shows. My interest is more along the lines of furthering non-academic philosophy than tearing down academic philosophy because I care about philosophy generally, one, and I'm fairly certain I'd find the academic life miserable just because of my political orientations, two. I clearly benefit, as one interested in philosophy, by the work academics put in. I read them all the time and their thoughts help to expand my mind. I'm interested in making non-academic philosophy work on a level that is more than popular, but is actually rigorous. I suppose that's what I mean by I fear "duping" myself -- I can see the dangers of not having an institution dedicated to high quality philosophy, and how it might be fairly easy to convince ourselves without some kind of rigor.
Cavacava December 06, 2015 at 17:32 #4878
I used to go to Socrates Cafe, which is held in the local Presbyterian Church's huge basement and it drews all age groups, students, lawyers, a wide variety of people young and old. The topics are good but the emcee, the Reverend (who teaches Philosophy at local college) is the host.

He controls the conversation, as if he were in the classroom, which is fitting since we get as many as 30 people show up and many times all want to talk at once. He also gives the introduction to the topic up for discussion and he provides the closing commentary summing up the thoughts of the discussion.

I can't recall the topic we were discussing but in his closing, which was right about the time that those trumped up videos supposedly capturing Planned Parenthood selling fetus part had arisen. The Reverend used his summary to condemn Planned Parenthood.

I confronted him on line about this after I got home, but he had little to say, except that he suggested I watch all the videos which apparently surfaced by that point in time.

I can't see going back.

I also go to a Philosophy Walk, which is held once a month at a local park. Florida has parks everywhere and most are free, nice and beautiful places to walk and think. The group here is a little older, but also diverse.

There is always a topic and the group leader who provides three of four questions which he disburses one at a time. We pair up and walk with a different partner each time and discuss the particular question which is a facet of the general topic. At the end of each round we stop and discuss what we thought, everyone gets a chance to speak, then there is typically a short general discussion.

Around 14 people generally show up.

Philosophic discussions at the Socrates Cafe are sharper then those at the Walk, but the Walk conversations tend to be more pragmatically orientated.



Thorongil December 06, 2015 at 19:03 #4884
Reply to The Great Whatever But I can expect that, at least if we take individual cases. Sure, any completely random person off the street is not going to be able to discuss philosophy as a university professor will be able to. But I'm thinking of someone who reads philosophy and literature on their own time, while working a non-academic job. In my opinion, there is no reason at all that such a person would be any less good at discussing philosophy than a professor. There are many professors who are quite frankly ignorant morons, who make one wonder how on earth they ever jumped their way through all the academic hoops to eventually become professors. Nor do these people represent some microscopic exception.
Moliere December 06, 2015 at 21:31 #4891
Reply to Cavacava We used to run Socrates Cafe-style meetings w our philosophy club in university. Very cool book too. We would also do reading groups and public debates. That, in addition to communal living, and pseudo-anarchist politics, comprised my "serious" philosophic journey. I'd like to continue in that mold, but I often feel uncertain on the how.
ProbablyTrue December 06, 2015 at 21:49 #4893
Quoting Baden
I see our task on forums like this as primarily one of edifying ourselves and each other rather than pushing forward the boundaries of knowledge.


The boundaries of knowledge are different for each person and a place like this or places like it could potentially encompass the entire spectrum. There's certainly no ceiling on the quality of philosophical discussion that goes on here so I don't see why the internet couldn't be a place for serious philosophical debate.
I don't think Brassier made the case for why he thinks the internet isn't an 'appropriate medium'.
I would think the internet could possibly be the most appropriate medium since the discussion is available to everyone and could capture every point of view, rather than an insular campus community.
If he truly thinks the goal of philosophy is to impede stupidity, isn't the internet the greatest potential tool?
Cavacava December 07, 2015 at 00:09 #4901
Reply to Moliere

If you have not tired meetup.com you might try it. Plenty of diverse groups post their meetings here. I belong to three or four groups, but only active in Philosophy Walk and Air Plien Painter's group. See what's happening in your area.
The Great Whatever December 23, 2015 at 05:34 #5938
Reply to Thorongil Having met and discussed philosophy with a number of philosophy professors, that has not been my experience of them. Some of them come off as arrogant and not very insightful. But then, almost everyone discussing philosophy on the internet comes off that way. Again, because they are not serious about the subject, and do not genuinely care about it.
Marchesk December 23, 2015 at 08:13 #5939
Quoting The Great Whatever
There is a fundamental disconnect with that way of life and the modern one: it's not a matter of certain contingent things about life being out of whack, but the values that determine what people think a life should consist of to begin with are so foreign to those interests that there's no connection.


What would that look like today, and what sort of values would foster that kind of community? Is this the kind of commitment Jesus demanded of his disciples? Leave your normal life and practice philosophy instead?

Also, it seems you think the Cyrenaics figured out most of the interesting philosophical problems, so how would contemporary philosophers improve upon that, in your view?
The Great Whatever December 23, 2015 at 08:33 #5941
Quoting Marchesk
What would that look like today, and what sort of values would foster that kind of community? Is this the kind of commitment Jesus demanded of his disciples? Leave your normal life and practice philosophy instead?


The models we get from the ancient philosophers are people who, just by living, outraged and inspired people. Many were killed by the state, exiled from their homes, or were banned from teaching. The Cyrenaics made up a portion of these. They did as they pleased; in the words of Aristippus, the difference between a philosopher and an ordinary person is that if the laws were abolished tomorrow, the philosopher's behavior wouldn't change. There is a kind of height of character. They were not political radicals, in the banal sense, but possessed of a deeper personal power and contentment. How true this idealized picture is to real life, who knows. But the end of philosophy on this picture is not excellent theories, but excellent people. The important thing is that when these people come together to learn, they see their learning not as a 'job,' but a lifestyle. How well this extends to theoretical disciplines not like ethics, who knows -- but in a way, that itself perhaps speaks to the inferiority of those disciplines to ethics (!).

Quoting Marchesk
Also, it seems you think the Cyrenaics figured out most of the interesting philosophical problems, so how would contemporary philosophers improve upon that, in your view?


Well, problems cease to be interesting once you solve them. And life has no end of problems. And if the project of philosophy is living well, it can't be 'accomplished' so long as you're still living.
Marchesk December 24, 2015 at 03:43 #5980
Reply to The Great Whatever Why would the project of philosophy be to live well?
The Great Whatever December 24, 2015 at 04:21 #5981
Reply to Marchesk Because that's what matters. You can of course say philosophy is anything you like, but you have to make it something in order for it to have any substance. And the project of living well is one that concerns you by virtue of being alive, and so is of interest intrinsically. Other projects, such as 'knowledge of the universe,' or 'seeing how things hang together generally,' are only of extrinsic interest, that is, they are not interesting on their own terms, but only insofar as an arbitrary opinion decides to grant them interest relative to something else. So in Socratic fashion we're guided by the demands of life itself, as they're imposed in virtue of living (that is, the commitments we already find ourselves committed to in virtue of living, and so which we cannot claim to try to abandon without internal inconsistency).
Marchesk December 24, 2015 at 04:23 #5982
Quoting The Great Whatever
ther projects, such as 'knowledge of the universe,' or 'seeing how things hang together generally,' are only of extrinsic interest, that is, they are not interesting on their own terms, but only insofar as an arbitrary opinion decides to grant them interest relative to something else.


But that's not true. Plenty of people find them intrinsically interesting.
Marchesk December 24, 2015 at 04:26 #5983
And I'm not denying that living well or ethics are an important philosophical project, I'm just questioning that they are the central project of philosophy, when the evidence seems to be to the contrary. Philosophy is much broader than that, until you narrow your focus to groups of philosophers who think/thought a certain way.
The Great Whatever December 24, 2015 at 04:27 #5984
Reply to Marchesk No, they don't. They find them interesting insofar as... Remove the condition following, and they lose their interest. Their interest is, in other words, derivative.

Put another way, it is possible to lose interest in such questions, while it is not possible to lose interest in living well, whatever one's opinions on the matter are. Thus, only an arbitrary opinion imbues such other questions with their (extrinsic) interest.
Marchesk December 24, 2015 at 04:29 #5985
Quoting The Great Whatever
They find them interesting insofar as... Remove the condition following, and they lose their interest. Their interest is, in other words, derivative.


The condition being that an individual or group finds them interesting?
Marchesk December 24, 2015 at 04:31 #5986
Quoting The Great Whatever
Put another way, it is possible to lose interest in such questions, while it is not possible to lose interest in living well, whatever one's opinions on the matter are. Thus, only an arbitrary opinion imbues such other questions with their (extrinsic) interest.


But for some people, the thing that gives their life purpose is pursuing such questions. There was a mathematician who cared about nothing other than math to the point that he was nearly helpless in other areas of life.
The Great Whatever December 24, 2015 at 04:32 #5987
Reply to Marchesk The condition might be anything you like. For example, you might be compelled by metaphysical hypotheses about the basic structure of the world because you feel uneasy when you lack understanding of something, and so have a desire to understand, or feel as though you understand, everything. But if circumstances change and so does your psychological predisposition, so that you no longer feel uneasy in these circumstances, the corresponding metaphysical hypotheses will cease to be interesting. Or, you might have an interest in such questions because your intellectual tradition does, and you have independent interests in being a part of, or contributing to, that tradition. When that interest is lost, so will be the interest in the metaphysical hypotheses.

But the only way that living well can cease to be interesting to you is, I submit, to die, in which case philosophy already is out of the question anyway.
Marchesk December 24, 2015 at 04:33 #5988
Quoting The Great Whatever
For example, you might be compelled by metaphysical hypotheses about the basic structure of the world because you feel uneasy when you lack understanding of something, and so have a desire to understand, or feel as though you understand, everything. But if circumstances change and so does your psychological predisposition, so that you no longer feel uneasy in these circumstances, the corresponding metaphysical hypotheses will cease to be interesting.


Or they might find such questions fascinating. It's interesting that you frame it in terms of anxiety or tradition, leaving out the obvious motivation.
The Great Whatever December 24, 2015 at 04:46 #5990
Reply to Marchesk But this fascination is itself extrinsic, since it is possible for that fascination to disappear. Thus, it is only fascination 'insofar as...' whereas living well involves commitments that must be made in virtue of being alive, and in particular, pleasure and pain, which have intrinsic, rather than extrinsic, value: they are never good or bad 'insofar as...'.
Marchesk December 24, 2015 at 04:49 #5991
Quoting The Great Whatever
whereas living well involves commitments that must be made in virtue of being alive


True.

Quoting The Great Whatever
pleasure and pain, which have intrinsic, rather than extrinsic, value: they are never good or bad 'insofar as...'.


I guess I just disagree with this. I think pleasure or pain are only good or bad insofar as the context makes them good or bad. I can feel pain and think it's a good thing, and feel pleasure and think it's bad. I can also think that a less pleasurable state is preferable. It just depends on the context.
The Great Whatever December 24, 2015 at 04:54 #5992
Quoting Marchesk
I can feel pain and think it's a good thing, and feel pleasure and think it's bad. I can also think that a less pleasurable state is preferable. It just depends on the context.


But what you think doesn't have to be so, if by 'think' you mean 'have the opinion that...' Certainly I can think 'this is great!' at my pain, but by so thinking I will have made it no better, or made it not bad somehow. If, on the other hand. by 'think' you mean something a bit more primal than opinion, like being affected by it positively, well, then, it wouldn't be pain if that were the case.
TheWillowOfDarkness December 25, 2015 at 22:49 #6064
Reply to The Great Whatever

The problem is that is no different for our concern about anything we do. At any moment we are caught-up in the business of trying to life-well, no matter what that might be. It's not something given without our particular interests at any point. Examining suffering philosophically, for example, is no more or less than an "arbitrary" interest than wanting to describe how the world works, listening to some instance of music or eating lunch. No doubt pain is bad, but such states are not moments of our interest in something. More to the point, even a given pain can disappear, whether it be through our death or becoming absorbed in some other thought or experience for a moment,

For any interest, it is most most certainly not, "only insofar." At the given moment, there is nothing else a person lives. Our interests our never good and bad insofar as they cause a separate state or life of pleasure or pain, for what matter to any moment of life is what is happen precisely then.


The Great Whatever: But if circumstances change and so does your psychological predisposition, so that you no longer feel uneasy in these circumstances, the corresponding metaphysical hypotheses will cease to be interesting. Or, you might have an interest in such questions because your intellectual tradition does, and you have independent interests in being a part of, or contributing to, that tradition. When that interest is lost, so will be the interest in the metaphysical hypotheses


And? All that means is a person is living their life. People's interests sometimes change. People sometimes feel different. The ceasing of an interest doesnt' mean that it didn't, itself, matter for the times it was of interest. Whether we are talking about a state of interest or a state of pain, there is no difference here. You seem to make this bizarre assumption that interests have to be relevant irrespective of one life, as if only what is turn all the time can matter in life. This doesn't make sense. In states of existence, in the finite, nothing is true all the time and it never will be.
Pfhorrest November 27, 2019 at 05:35 #356691
I stumbled into this old thread, and it made me feel sad or ashamed that I never progressed past my BA in philosophy and got a PhD like I once dreamed of. (Meanwhile, on another hand, I simultaneously feel sad and ashamed that I "wasted" my university education on an "impractical" topic like philosophy instead of, I dunno, computer science or something, and that part of me thinks I'd feel even more sad and ashamed if I had ignored the practical reasons I didn't pursue a PhD and "wasted" even more time and money on that instead).

I wonder sometimes what the point is of writing my philosophy book. When I started it, back when I was still getting that BA and planning to go on to a PhD, I expected that it would form the basis of my dissertation. I've since realized that contemporary (at least Analytic) philosophy dissertations are nothing at all like that and I would probably have been unhappy having to eschew doing the philosophical work I was interested in to instead focus excessively on some much narrower problem, probably in the service of someone else's research interests. I have no plans to publish it as a real book in dead-tree format; though it's certainly long enough for that, at about 80,000 words now, I seriously doubt my writing ability, and I don't expect any publisher would be interested in it; and even if they were, I seriously doubt it would get read enough for it to be worth it. My analytics tell me hardly anybody's even reading it for free on the internet (not that I can blame them), so I don't see why anyone more would ever pay for it.

More on the topic of this thread, on academic vs lay philosophy, here's an excerpt from my essay on Metaphilosophy from the aforementioned book:
As regards who is to exercise such faculties, who is it that is to do philosophy, the question is largely whether philosophy is a personal activity, or an institutional one. Given that I have just opined that the faculty needed to conduct philosophy is literally personhood itself, it should come as no surprise that I think that philosophy is for each and every person to do, to the best of their ability to do so. Nevertheless, institutions are made of people, and I do value the cooperation and collaboration that has arisen within philosophy in the contemporary era, so I don't mean at all to besmirch professional philosophy and the specialization that has come with it. I merely don't think that the specialized, professional philosophers warrant a monopoly on the discipline. It is good that there be people whose job it is to know philosophy better than laypeople, and that some of those people specialize even more deeply in particular subfields of philosophy. But it is important that laypeople continue to philosophize as well, and that the discourse of philosophy as a whole be continuous between those laypeople and the professionals, without a sharp divide into mutually exclusive castes of professional philosophers and non-philosophers. And it is also important that some philosophers keep abreast of the progress in all of those specialties and continue to integrate their findings together into more generalized philosophical systems.


I feel like I'm kind of in a weird in-between place with respect to all of that. I have a negligible degree in philosophy, so that's some formal education, but nothing nearly impressive enough to qualify me as a professional philosopher. My interests are extremely broad, as the breadth of philosophy is largely what attracted me to the field, but I really appreciate that other people have done the in-depth specialized work in all of the fields that interest me, so that I can draw from all of that into the big general picture I'm working on. I would love to somehow function as a bridge between those worlds, connecting the many different specialized professional philosophers to a more general and generalist audience, encouraging laypeople to build out their own general philosophical worldviews, for their own sakes, but drawing from the many insights that specialized professional philosophers have already developed. I would love if somehow there was more of such a bridge, socially and institutionally, not just for me to be the entirety of it; some people like Olly Thorne of Philosophy Tube are sort of doing that already, as that whole channel is dedicated to him "giving away his education" after a UK tuition hike. But I don't know what I can really do to help there be more of that, considering I can barely keep my life together enough to do a little bit of mediocre work on my own book a few nights a week.
Moliere November 27, 2019 at 09:36 #356701
Rereading this thread just makes me miss Tgw :(

Reply to Pfhorrest

As far as I'm concerned these days, at least -- insofar that you're happy with your life, living a good life, then you're doing philosophy well. No need for recognition. No need to complete that degree. No need to worry about being in-between, too rigorous or not rigorous at all.

Happiness is all that matters. The rest is just for fun. And rigor can be fun. But it needn't impede your happiness.

Grre November 27, 2019 at 13:42 #356725
Reply to Moliere I like your optimism...

Regarding the original quote lambasting the existence of online philosophical forums/discussion ect. I am slightly unnerved...
Why is it philosophy (alone) that must be held to such serious (elitist) standards for it to even warrant the "title" of philosophy/philosophical discussion? Almost every other hobby/interest/skill can be practiced (without judgement) at different levels and degrees of ability, advancement, and seriousness. For example, what about guys that go and shoot some hoops after class occasionally? Does their lack of basketball training or their obvious lack of advancement (they all know they are not going to play in the NBA) negate the reality that they are still playing basketball? If only to the best of their ability? What about amateur radio operators? Small time botanists with some vegetables in their green house? All of these people are humble enough to admit their inabilities, but yet, are the 'professionals' of these skills the ones mocking them? More often than not professional basketball players donate much money and time to encouraging an interest in the sport, in children's basketball programs, in the construction of basketball courts ect. I doubt any professional athlete, artist, ect. would ever say or downplay the abilities or skills of those obviously less skilled; because they care about the sport/art/skill in question, they are interested in encouraging people's interest in them. Online discussion of philosophy then, flawed and off-topic as it may very well tend to be at times, is just the result of thousands of different voices, opinions, and skill-set levels, having-a-go, and in that sense, and in many ways, I think it is better at bolstering interest and allowing those with the skills and experience, to better encourage and help those new to the subject than the stuffy classroom of exhausted and stressed out undergrads. Just as I think @ProbablyTrue was saying.
Even in the serious sciences, do you think "real" scientists discourage personal research? Experiments? The whole impetus of science is to search for answers, to want answers, why would any "real" accredited scientist discount the interest and fascination of those less experienced than him?

Also the collapse of the humanities is a very real threat in universities. As a university student currently in the process of completing my second undergrad (first in philosophy, currently in law), the undergrad university has entirely become a daycare for middle class kids to help train them for "jobs". Philosophy, even more so than English/history/geography/anthropology is collapsing; @Pfhorrest I concur with some of your feelings. I want my PhD, and I much preferred my philosophy BA to this "practical" law degree I am taking now (as I'm writing this I should be actually doing my law work)-and I face the ridicule from friends and my family. Money-wise I could never justify it, I need a job...hence the law school.

@Phil
Not to call you out, but I believe it was you who noted that you don't regard Orwell or Camus as "real" philosophers, but rather as literary artists ect. ect. But what is literature if not philosophy? Philosophy is a wide ranging discipline-undisputable in my opinion; look at its obvious connections (and historical impetus for) science, art ect. Camus wrote books as well as essays; including journal articles, pamphlets, and plays; all with very deep, complex, and relevant philosophical themes and inquiries. I adore Camus but my point is not to defend him, but to defend all the philosophical writers and thinkers that have not fit the keyhole of "academic"; why necessarily is "academic" the benchmark for professionalism of philosophy? Or as someone else pointed out, how can a subject such as philosophy in the traditional sense; the love and pursuit of wisdom, be squared away as the mere accumulation of a certain strata of knowledge? I prefer the definition of philosophy as the love of questions, of raising thought-provoking, introspective, relevant, and important questions that otherwise get sidelined, dismissed, or overlooked in the daily act of living. To view philosophy as a merely academic-institutionalized activity is to view it only relative to contemporary standards, which obviously, historically, is incorrect.

Of course, I have great respect for academic and professional philosophers; as people have noted, these are individuals who did win "the lottery" and as someone who wants to earn a PhD myself one day (but likely won't), I have only great admiration for their capacities, perseverance, and aptitudes. I have met some great philosophy professors and philosophers in my day-of course I think there needs to be a degree of separation between the ability to teach philosophy and the ability to academically DO philosophy; as other people have noted, I have met some pompous and terrible philosophy professors that did just not teach in a way that students would fully comprehend-but again, that is not to say that they are not 'good' philosophers-teaching is just a whole other skillset. I could probably decently teach a class of high school philosophy for example, I know enough, and I feel very confident in my teaching abilities; but by no means would I then say I am a "professional" philosopher. I am merely a person who loves philosophy.
Deleted User November 27, 2019 at 16:26 #356747
Quoting Soylent
. Of course the case can be made that the same happens in academia and schools, but if the internet (search engines) directed you to opposition to your position in the way a library might arrange books by topic, there might be more of a realization that there is serious work opposed to the movement. I wouldn't categorize philosophy on the internet as fruitless, but it can give the appearance of a greater understanding and consensus and should be cautious of becoming a "safe" community absent of dissent.


This is why an honest and successful endeavor in internet philosophy is to have the balls to use key search phrases like "Argument against belief X which I ignorantly hold" maybe not the last part haha.
Pfhorrest November 27, 2019 at 23:12 #356839
Quoting Grre
Even in the serious sciences, do you think "real" scientists discourage personal research? Experiments? The whole impetus of science is to search for answers, to want answers, why would any "real" accredited scientist discount the interest and fascination of those less experienced than him?


In the parts of the physical sciences that start to verge on philosophy, I do see a lot of that. Every forum has a crank who thinks he can disprove relativity or quantum mechanics, and a lot of more-educated users start to really look down on everyone who thinks they have a novel thought about physics. That makes me sad too, because I've often had interesting thoughts about physics and wanted to discuss them with people better-educated in that subject than me to find out of someone else has already had this idea, if it's been disproven or is already a part of some existing theory, or is at least a live hypothesis in the field, or if not, how well does the genuinely new idea mesh with the existing research... but the response is more often than not just to shut down the discussion right off the bat at the hubris I have to dare to think I could "do physics" outside of academia without my own hadron collider to prove things with.

Also, it sounds like it's too late already, but Don't Be A Lawyer.
Grre November 28, 2019 at 11:20 #357005
Reply to Pfhorrest
That makes me sad. I guess I'm speaking from a place of bias because one of my best friends is a biologist and has never looked down on my lack of knowledge/questions, in fact we usually go back and forth, me asking medial/biological questions, and him asking me history/philosophy ones But that undermines the entire point of science does it not? Like someone else highlighted in this question, shouldn't knowledge be treated as some borderline collective activity? In fact, all the knowledge we currently have, in any given field, is because of the intergenerational collective building of information, knowledge, and inquiry... ridiculous that people are so entitled, even when they might have some right to be (ie. via decades of work and time spent). I always try not to be like that, even when I'm faced with people with no real understanding of what philosophy is, or when everyone is just high and talking "pop shop" politics/philosophy. Sometimes I get annoyed, usually by their sheer arrogance, and in those cases I stay quiet, but usually I try to guide the discussion or at the very least, give my two cents.
SophistiCat November 28, 2019 at 13:54 #357028
Reply to Grre Reply to Pfhorrest "Citizen science" is a thing, and I think scientists, by and large, welcome that. But most good citizen science is just what you might expect someone who is not well versed in the field to be able to do well: grunt work, such as data collection. There's usually a lot of such grunt work in any science, even theoretical physics (though for the latter you would need to have at least some math or computer skills in order to be useful).

Asking questions is another thing. As a nerd by nature, I like picking the brains of scientists and other professionals, and in my experience the response is usually positive at best, neutral at worst.
Pantagruel November 28, 2019 at 15:44 #357038
Potentially, the internet has the capability to create a whole new set of polymaths, a re-renaissance of the "Renaissance Man" ideal which rapid advances in so many sciences made untenable.

Practically speaking, to me, the question is: Is the internet conducive to rigorous thought? Overwhelmingly, the answer is no. The internet is conducive to reinforcing pre-existing biases. But rooting out and understanding (and thereby mitigating) cognitive biases is a huge part of the philosophical attitude.

So for those who are already disciplined, it makes a formidable tool. Otherwise...
god must be atheist November 29, 2019 at 03:28 #357153
Quoting The Great Whatever
I actually like the old Greek model even better. I like the idea of research as a lifelong joint project and lifestyle


I want female students if I am to teach in the style of joint. If I am to teach in the style of the great classical Greek masters of philosophy. I much don't care for joint research and close proximity with male students.

This what you said, @The Great Whatever, makes sense, and I am not being merely facetious. Integrated learning means integrated lifestyles, and if it involves sex, so be it. But please forgive me, I don't want to sex with male people.