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Are moral truths accessible?

rickyk95 May 24, 2017 at 06:02 6250 views 19 comments
If it were the case that moral truths existed (I tend to believe they do), this doesnt necessarily mean that they are accesible, afterall, there is no reliable way to solve our most puzzling moral dilemmas, or is there? If not, can there ever be?

Comments (19)

Galuchat May 24, 2017 at 07:55 #71875
rickyk95:Are moral truths accessible?


They are if you possess empathy.
Michael May 24, 2017 at 08:37 #71883
Quoting Galuchat
They are if you possess empathy.


On what grounds do you justify your assertion that empathy is the means by which we can access moral truths?

You seem to be implying that something is moral if it makes others feel good and something is immoral if it makes others feel bad?
Galuchat May 24, 2017 at 08:49 #71885
Michael:You seem to be implying that something is moral if it makes others feel good and something is immoral if it makes others feel bad?


You seem to be implying that empathy is something that makes others feel good or bad, without reference to the accessibility of moral truths?
Michael May 24, 2017 at 09:04 #71887
Quoting Galuchat
You seem to be implying that empathy is something that makes others feel good or bad, without reference to the accessibility of moral truths?


Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. Therefore if empathy is a means to access moral truths then moral truths have something to do with the feelings of others. Correct?

Or are you saying that empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another and the ability to access moral truths? That would strike me as a very unusual use of the term "empathy". Why use the term "empathy" to refer to two very different abilities? What if I have the ability to understand and share the feelings of another but not the ability to access moral truths?
Galuchat May 24, 2017 at 09:09 #71889
Michael:Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. Therefore if empathy is a means to access moral truths then moral truths have something to do with the feelings of others. Correct?


Empathy is identification with, and the vicarious experience of, the thoughts and/or feelings of another person.

Empathy has affective and cognitive components:
(1) Affective Empathy: the capacity to understand the emotional conditions of others.
(2) Cognitive Empathy: the capacity to understand the cognitive conditions of others.

Rogers K, Dziobek I, Hassenstab J, Wolf OT, Convit A (Apr 2007). "Who Cares? Revisiting Empathy in Asperger Syndrome". J Autism Dev Discord 37 (4): 709–15. doi:10.1007/s10803-006-0197-8. PMID 16906462.
http://www.cog.psy.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/papers/2007/Rogers(2007)_JAutismDevDisord.pdf
Michael May 24, 2017 at 09:11 #71890
Quoting Galuchat
Empathy is identification with, and the vicarious experience of, the thoughts and/or feelings of another person.

Empathy has affective and cognitive components:
(1) Affective Empathy: the capacity to understand the emotional conditions of others.
(2) Cognitive Empathy: the capacity to understand the cognitive conditions of others.

Rogers K, Dziobek I, Hassenstab J, Wolf OT, Convit A (Apr 2007). "Who Cares? Revisiting Empathy in Asperger Syndrome". J Autism Dev Discord 37 (4): 709–15. doi:10.1007/s10803-006-0197-8. PMID 16906462.
http://www.cog.psy.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/papers/2007/Rogers(2007)_JAutismDevDisord.pdf


So what does that have to do with moral truths? As I said, you seem to be implying that rightness and wrongness are concerned with the emotional (or cognitive) conditions of others (and my assumption is that you're implying that rightness is concerned with "positive" conditions and wrongness with "negative" conditions).

How do you justify this position?
Galuchat May 24, 2017 at 09:27 #71891
Michael:So what does that have to do with moral truths?


It has to do with defining empathy, which is important since we appear to have different ideas about what empathy is, unless you now prefer my definition to your own?

Michael:As I said, you seem to be implying that rightness and wrongness have something to do with the emotional (or cognitive) conditions of others (and my assumption is that you're implying that rightness is concerned with "positive" conditions and wrongness with "negative" conditions.


It seems rather that more definitions are required. Rightness and wrongness have nothing to do with defining what is moral and what is immoral (i.e., accessing moral truths).
mcdoodle May 24, 2017 at 09:50 #71894
Quoting rickyk95
If it were the case that moral truths existed (I tend to believe they do)


If there were inaccessible moral truths, what would be the mechanism by which one would know there were such truths?
Michael May 24, 2017 at 09:56 #71896
Quoting Galuchat
It has to do with defining empathy, which is important since we appear to have different ideas about what empathy is, unless you now prefer my definition to your own?


So what does empathy as you've defined it – identification with, and the vicarious experience of, the thoughts and/or feelings of another person – have to do with moral truths?

It seems rather that more definitions are required. Rightness and wrongness have nothing to do with defining what is moral and what is immoral (i.e., accessing moral truths).


I was using "rightness" and "wrongness" in place of "moral" and "immoral". If you take them to mean different things (grammar notwithstanding) then I'll rephrase my remark: "As I said, you seem to be implying that moral truths have something to do with the emotional (or cognitive) conditions of others (and my assumption is that you're implying that something or someone being moral is concerned with 'positive' conditions and something or someone being immoral is concerned with 'negative' conditions)."
Galuchat May 24, 2017 at 10:10 #71899
Michael:So what does empathy, as you've defined it, have to do with moral truths?


Empathy is an ethical perception faculty which develops after theory of mind has been attained (between 2-7 years of age per Jean Piaget). It informs the ethical interpretation of social situations (except in the case of mental disorders such as psychopathy), cf. Francis Hutcheson's Moral Sense.

Empathy permits a judgement to be made regarding the experience of others in terms of one's self (i.e., a decision is made regarding experience goodness or badness). This results in the acquisition of ethical knowledge, hence; a person's morality construct develops in parallel with mental maturation, personal experience, and social influences.
Michael May 24, 2017 at 10:13 #71900
Quoting Galuchat
Empathy is an ethical perception faculty which develops after theory of mind has been attained (between 2-7 years of age per Jean Piaget). It informs the ethical interpretation of social situations (except in the case of mental disorders such as psychopathy), cf. Francis Hutcheson's Moral Sense.

Empathy permits a judgement to be made regarding the experience of others in terms of one's self (i.e., a decision is made regarding experience goodness or badness). This results in the acquisition of ethical knowledge, hence; a person's morality construct develops in parallel with mental maturation, personal experience, and social influences.


You're just reasserting the claim that being able to identify with and vicariously experience the thoughts and/or feelings of another allows one to access moral truths. But until you explain the relationship between the thoughts and/or feelings of another and moral truths, this claim isn't justified.
Galuchat May 24, 2017 at 10:24 #71901
Michael:But until you explain the relationship between the thoughts and/or feelings of another and moral truths, this claim isn't justified.


If truth is an accurate description of experience, and I decide my experience of this is good and my experience of that is bad, those are moral truths (albeit subjective ones).
Michael May 24, 2017 at 10:29 #71902
Quoting Galuchat
If truth is an accurate description of experience, and I decide my experience of this is good and my experience of that is bad, those are moral truths (albeit subjective ones).


By "good experience" and "bad experience" do you mean "moral experience" and "immoral experience"? If so then I'd question the concept of a moral/immoral experience. What are such things? If not then you're conflating moral goodness with non-moral goodness and moral badness with non-moral badness. Your claim is akin to claiming that because this flower smells bad, it smells immoral.
Galuchat May 24, 2017 at 10:57 #71906
Michael:By "good experience" and "bad experience" do you mean "moral experience" and "immoral experience"?


Yes.

Michael:If so then I'd question the concept of a moral/immoral experience. What are such things?


A moral experience pertains to the satisfaction of, and an immoral experience pertains to the frustration of, a fundamental human need, as defined by Manfred Max-Neef, et al.

Max-Neef, Manfred A. with Elizalde, Antonio; Hopenhayn, Martin. (1989). Human Scale Development: Conception, Application and Further Reflections. New York: Apex.
http://www.wtf.tw/ref/max-neef.pdf
Michael May 24, 2017 at 11:04 #71908
Quoting Galuchat
A moral experience pertains to the satisfaction of, and an immoral experience pertains to the frustration of, a fundamental human need, as defined by Manfred Max-Neef, et al.


So to piece this together, one can have access to moral truths if one can identify with or vicariously experience the thoughts and/or feelings of another and where the content of these thoughts and/or feelings is one of satisfying or frustrating a fundamental human need?

Two things to question here:

1) Is empathy really necessary? Can I not just have my own thoughts and/or feelings regarding the satisfaction or frustration of a fundamental human need, without having to identify with or vicariously experiencing the thoughts and/or feelings of another?

2) How do you justify your assertion that satisfying a fundamental human need is moral and frustrating a fundamental human need is immoral?
Cavacava May 24, 2017 at 11:06 #71910
Reply to mcdoodle

If there were inaccessible moral truths, what would be the mechanism by which one would know there were such truths?


How about a transcendental method? Kant does not prove morality (or evil), he accepts that both are real. All you have to do is look around to see examples of both. Kant tried to determine the form of the transcendental principles necessary for there to be a moral law. The transcendental in itself is inaccessible to our understanding, forming a limit on what we can know, but which we can still can think.
mcdoodle May 24, 2017 at 17:20 #71974
Quoting Cavacava
How about a transcendental method? Kant does not prove morality (or evil), he accepts that both are real. All you have to do is look around to see examples of both. Kant tried to determine the form of the transcendental principles necessary for there to be a moral law. The transcendental in itself is inaccessible to our understanding, forming a limit on what we can know, but which we can still can think.


I accept morality as real in some way. Kant presumed the existence of a God, even though he claimed secular grounds for the moral. Without gods, the realness of morality is present in ethical / moral practice, immanently, but I don't understand where the knowledge of inaccessible truths would come in.
Terrapin Station May 24, 2017 at 21:35 #72000
Are moral truths accessible?

No. Because there are no moral truths.
Terrapin Station May 24, 2017 at 21:39 #72001
Quoting Galuchat
Empathy is an ethical perception faculty


For one, the definitions you gave didn't imply that we're perceiving ethics.