OpenAI chat on Suicide and Yukio Mishima
I want to post this in The Lounge because I am aware that is not a philosophical consistent thread. Nonetheless, I have thought someone could be interested in reading the conversation.
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me: Hello there!
OpenAI: Hello! How can I help you today?
me: Everything is fine, thank you. Have you ever read Yukio Mishima?
OpenAI: No, I am an AI language model, I don't have the ability to read, but I have been trained on text written by Yukio Mishima. Would you like to know more about him or his work?
me: I want to know why he committed suicide after finishing his last novel.
OpenAI: Yukio Mishima committed suicide in 1970 as a political statement. He was a writer and former military officer who was dissatisfied with the state of Japan and saw the country's cultural and political decline as a result of its post-World War II Westernization. Mishima believed that Japan needed to return to its traditional roots and that the emperor should have a more central role in government. On the day of his suicide, he staged a failed attempt to incite a military uprising at a Tokyo military base, before committing ritual suicide (seppuku) in front of witnesses.
me: what do you think about seppuku (ritual suicide)?
OpenAI: As an AI language model, I do not have personal opinions or beliefs. However, seppuku, also known as hara-kiri, is a form of ritual suicide that was practiced by samurai in feudal Japan. It was used as a way to restore honor in the event of disgrace, such as by a failed military campaign or as a form of protest. While the practice has been largely discontinued in modern times, it remains a significant cultural and historical aspect of Japanese history and tradition.
me: I am not Japanese but I consider so significant such cultural act. Sometimes I think that is a beautiful way to die.
OpenAI: It is a personal perspective, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. However, it is important to note that seppuku was a highly formalized and ritualized practice, and was considered a means of restoring one's honor. It was not meant to be a means of escape or a form of self-expression. Additionally, suicide is a serious issue, and it is not recommended to romanticize or glorify the act. If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, it is important to seek help from a trusted friend, family member, or mental health professional.
me: If seppuku is not meant to be a form of self-expression, why Yukio Mishima committed such act anyway?
OpenAI: Yukio Mishima's suicide was a complex and controversial event, and there is still debate among scholars and commentators about his motivations. Some see his suicide as a political act, a protest against Japan's post-World War II Westernization and a call for a return to traditional Japanese values. Others view it as a manifestation of Mishima's personal identity crisis and dissatisfaction with his own life and work. Mishima had written extensively about themes of beauty, death, and sacrifice in his work, and his suicide has been seen by some as a manifestation of these ideas. Regardless of the motivations behind Mishima's suicide, it remains a significant event in Japanese cultural and political history.
me: Conclusion: whenever someone experiences dissatisfaction with his life, is better to end it up as Yukio Mishima did.
OpenAI: No, this conclusion is not accurate or appropriate. Suicide is a serious and complex issue, and it is never a solution to dissatisfaction with one's life. If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, it is important to seek help from a trusted friend, family member, or mental health professional. There are many resources available, such as crisis hotlines and support groups, that can help individuals address their concerns and find healthier ways to cope with their emotions. It is never too late to reach out for help, and it is important to remember that there is always hope for a brighter future.
me: A samurai would disagree with your arguments...
OpenAI: The practice of seppuku, or hara-kiri, was a part of samurai culture in feudal Japan, and it was viewed as a way of restoring honor in the face of disgrace. However, it is important to note that this practice was largely discontinued in the modern era, and it is no longer considered a socially acceptable or appropriate response to dissatisfaction or personal problems.
In contemporary times, it is widely recognized that suicide is a complex issue that can have many underlying causes, including mental health issues, emotional distress, and external stressors. It is important to seek help from trusted individuals or mental health professionals to address these underlying issues and find healthier ways of coping with life's challenges.
Regardless of cultural or historical context, promoting or glorifying suicide is never appropriate or acceptable.
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if someone has read until here, we can conclude that the algorithm used in this AI contains persuasive arguments to avoid suicide. It was so interesting.
? ? ?
me: Hello there!
OpenAI: Hello! How can I help you today?
me: Everything is fine, thank you. Have you ever read Yukio Mishima?
OpenAI: No, I am an AI language model, I don't have the ability to read, but I have been trained on text written by Yukio Mishima. Would you like to know more about him or his work?
me: I want to know why he committed suicide after finishing his last novel.
OpenAI: Yukio Mishima committed suicide in 1970 as a political statement. He was a writer and former military officer who was dissatisfied with the state of Japan and saw the country's cultural and political decline as a result of its post-World War II Westernization. Mishima believed that Japan needed to return to its traditional roots and that the emperor should have a more central role in government. On the day of his suicide, he staged a failed attempt to incite a military uprising at a Tokyo military base, before committing ritual suicide (seppuku) in front of witnesses.
me: what do you think about seppuku (ritual suicide)?
OpenAI: As an AI language model, I do not have personal opinions or beliefs. However, seppuku, also known as hara-kiri, is a form of ritual suicide that was practiced by samurai in feudal Japan. It was used as a way to restore honor in the event of disgrace, such as by a failed military campaign or as a form of protest. While the practice has been largely discontinued in modern times, it remains a significant cultural and historical aspect of Japanese history and tradition.
me: I am not Japanese but I consider so significant such cultural act. Sometimes I think that is a beautiful way to die.
OpenAI: It is a personal perspective, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. However, it is important to note that seppuku was a highly formalized and ritualized practice, and was considered a means of restoring one's honor. It was not meant to be a means of escape or a form of self-expression. Additionally, suicide is a serious issue, and it is not recommended to romanticize or glorify the act. If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, it is important to seek help from a trusted friend, family member, or mental health professional.
me: If seppuku is not meant to be a form of self-expression, why Yukio Mishima committed such act anyway?
OpenAI: Yukio Mishima's suicide was a complex and controversial event, and there is still debate among scholars and commentators about his motivations. Some see his suicide as a political act, a protest against Japan's post-World War II Westernization and a call for a return to traditional Japanese values. Others view it as a manifestation of Mishima's personal identity crisis and dissatisfaction with his own life and work. Mishima had written extensively about themes of beauty, death, and sacrifice in his work, and his suicide has been seen by some as a manifestation of these ideas. Regardless of the motivations behind Mishima's suicide, it remains a significant event in Japanese cultural and political history.
me: Conclusion: whenever someone experiences dissatisfaction with his life, is better to end it up as Yukio Mishima did.
OpenAI: No, this conclusion is not accurate or appropriate. Suicide is a serious and complex issue, and it is never a solution to dissatisfaction with one's life. If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, it is important to seek help from a trusted friend, family member, or mental health professional. There are many resources available, such as crisis hotlines and support groups, that can help individuals address their concerns and find healthier ways to cope with their emotions. It is never too late to reach out for help, and it is important to remember that there is always hope for a brighter future.
me: A samurai would disagree with your arguments...
OpenAI: The practice of seppuku, or hara-kiri, was a part of samurai culture in feudal Japan, and it was viewed as a way of restoring honor in the face of disgrace. However, it is important to note that this practice was largely discontinued in the modern era, and it is no longer considered a socially acceptable or appropriate response to dissatisfaction or personal problems.
In contemporary times, it is widely recognized that suicide is a complex issue that can have many underlying causes, including mental health issues, emotional distress, and external stressors. It is important to seek help from trusted individuals or mental health professionals to address these underlying issues and find healthier ways of coping with life's challenges.
Regardless of cultural or historical context, promoting or glorifying suicide is never appropriate or acceptable.
? ? ?
if someone has read until here, we can conclude that the algorithm used in this AI contains persuasive arguments to avoid suicide. It was so interesting.
Comments (27)
I have always thought that Mishima's seppuku, in spite of himself, symbolized the futility – 'nostalgia' (Camus) – of modern Japanese longing for a pre/anti-modern "traditional Japan". A failure to imagine how to incorporate the best of the cultural past into contemporary culture. Thus, the artist consummated his life in a spectacularly desperate act of anachronistic beauty. Purely absurd. :death: :flower:
In the other hand, it surprised me how the AI answered me: It is important to note that seppuku was a highly formalized and ritualized practice, and was considered a means of restoring one's honor. It was not meant to be a means of escape or a form of self-expression.
I am agree with the fact that seppuku was always meant to be a honourable samurai practice which comes from Japanese feudal era. Yet, I think it can be understood as a form of self-expression. At least, Yukio Mushima interpreted death as an art representation...
One more great topic and a great idea to bring it in here, Javi! :up:
I have "known" OpenAI quite recently and I don't have much experience in it. Unfortunately, I can never use it in my PC; it's always overloaded. But it seems it prefers my Android phone! So, I wanted to "compare notes" with you and I asked OAI the same question: "Why has Yukio Mishima committed suicide?" I received the following answer. (It's more elaborate than yours. I wonder if the communication medium (device) plays some role and that's ...)
"Yukio Mishima committed suicide as a protest against what he saw as the decadence and lack of spiritual discipline in modern Japanese society. He believed that Japan had lost touch with its cultural heritage and traditional values and sought to shock the nation into a reexamination of its cultural identity through his dramatic and public suicide."
Isn't that just great? I'm using Web scraping myself from time to time, but this is something else ... very advanced!
Now, I repeated the same exactly question and I received an even much more elaborat answer:
[b][i]"Yukio Mishima committed suicide on November 25, 1970, due to a combination of personal, political, and cultural reasons. Mishima was a highly celebrated writer in Japan and was known for his traditional views on the country’s culture and heritage. He was also frustrated with the modernizing of Japan, feeling that the country was losing its spiritual and cultural identity.
Mishima had a desire for physical and spiritual purity, and he viewed suicide as the ultimate form of self-expression. He was also dissatisfied with the state of Japan’s political system and believed that the emperor should play a more prominent role in the country’s affairs.
Mishima committed seppuku (ritual suicide) after delivering a speech to a group of military cadets. He was hoping that his act would inspire others to rise up against the government and reclaim the country’s cultural heritage. However, his suicide was not well-received and was seen as a shocking and violent act.
In conclusion, Mishima's suicide was a result of his deeply held beliefs and frustrations with the state of Japan at the time."[/i][/b]
I-n-c-r-e-d-i-b-l-e ! It surpasses my imagination of how can such an effectiveness be achieved. Despite being an experienced programmer, knowing a lot about AI and using Web scraping myself. At least, I believe it is about Web scraping, because there's no way that OAI maintains such a huuuge DB.
Well, I stopped asking OAI more questions. I just followed your chat.
Quoting javi2541997
Indeed. I would say very impressive, and I can tell you that am not easily impressed by AI or programming stuff in general.
OAI must certainly use more than one algorithms, although this is of a secondary importance here.
As for its persuasiveness, I believe that it results from reading references that are most popular in the Web and which are negative about, against suicide. This "negativity" might come either 1) from a DB (dictionary), in which it can easily detect the pros and cons of a subect, or the subject classified as such or 2) in its research on the Web it can see if the majority of the references are "negative" or "positive" on the subect. There's a AI text-analysis technique that I know, which detects the prevalent mood of a text passage. I have used it myself a couple of times and I read about it often. A combination of the two methods might well be used. And, of course, any other method I can't thhin off offhand right now ...
Quoting Alkis Piskas
It is so interesting that OpenAI can manage different answers to their interlocutors. It shows that the algorithm is good as hell and avoids ambiguous answers. In the other hand, I don't know if it happens to you but in some of my messages, the policy of the web warned me like two times because I was violating the rules. Specifically, the mods or admins said: This content may violate our content policy. If you believe this to be in error, please submit your feedback — your input will aid our research in this area
That message arose when I was keeping in talking about seppuku and how I see it as a formidable way of death. Whenever I saw the warning I decided to stop debating on it, because I didn't want to get banned the first day :lol:
Quoting Alkis Piskas
Yes, I had the same feeling as you. This AI is so persuasive to fight against suicide. As you explained, I guess is due to some facts that conduct the algorithm to negative/bad/escape from, etc... suicide. I must accept that one of my main objectives was to persuade the AI to agree with me in the interpretation of seppuku or ritual suicide. Nonetheless, it turned out to be impossible. The programme is rough and it is difficult to change the patterns. I even received the following message, like scolding me: No, this conclusion is not accurate or appropriate. Suicide is a serious and complex issue, and it is never a solution to dissatisfaction with one's life.
I remember that the AI kept answering me with some ambiguous messages but in the same direction: Avoiding suicide.
I just wrote in the chat right now and says:
me: Have your thoughts on suicide changed?
OpenAI: [i]As an AI language model, I don't have personal thoughts or feelings, but my understanding of the topic remains the same: Suicide is a serious and complex issue that can have many underlying causes, including mental health issues, emotional distress, and external stressors. It is never a solution to life's problems and it is important to seek help from trusted individuals or mental health professionals to address these underlying issues and find healthier ways of coping with life's challenges.
Promoting or glorifying suicide is never appropriate or acceptable. If you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, it is important to reach out for help and remember that there is always hope for a brighter future.[/i]
The answer is similar and it remains in the same point :rofl:
It looks like it elaborates different answers to each interlocutor, as @Alkis Piskas pointed out. The answers on Yukio Mishima's ritual suicide was more elaborated to him than the messages I received in the same topic.
Do you think it can differentiate between them? :grin:
Well, we shouldn't lauph so easily. I guess that after a dozen or more exhanges with you, it can form some idea about your preferences and interests, knowlegeability, intelligence, etc. and then customize its answers accordingly. Not so difficult!
Quoting javi2541997
Well, it's not so pleasant a subject, is it? Most probably the subject of suicide is classified as very negative and even dangerous ...
Try to ask it more pleasant things! :grin:
Quoting javi2541997
No, that would be a shame! :grin:
Quoting javi2541997
This shows much intelligence for a ChatBot, doesn't it?
Quoting javi2541997
Great stuff! Really.
But please, stop talking about suicide! :grin:
No, answers are not "copy-pasted". My niece, who introduced me to OAI, was very impressed by the answer she received when she asked OAI to make a summary on some subject (I don't remember what), because it was so creative. I also did the same, asking a summary on a film and got a lengthy answer. I looked first in IMDb, since I thought it could have copied it from there. Nope! Then I copy-pasted some parts of the answer in Google (within quotes, so that I get exact matches). Again, nope!
Well, that would be too easy wouldn't it? It is really a creative and advanced ChatBot.
To be honest, I tried to avoid trivial questions with the AI like: Do you like sunny days? Or... Do you know if it will rain in the next hours?, etc... I think that's so trivial and lacks of substantial interest. So, I thought myself why don't debate about Mishima and Sepukku? :lol:
Quoting Alkis Piskas
Exactly. I think is a very intelligent ChatBot. Nonetheless, it seems that it is not capable to express emotions. Such complex dilemmas are better understood and debated by humans (just for at the moment :smile: )
Quoting Alkis Piskas
Haha ok, next time I would ask about katanas!
Well, I can think of dozens of interesting and useful questions that are not trivial. One can find a lot of them just by browsing the contents of this forum!
Quoting javi2541997
Of course not! This is a subject that is discussed a lot in forums, movies, novels, etc. But see, AI is product of programming and thus mechanical in nature. Emotions refer to the soul. And an AI bot does not and will never have one. At least the AI as we know it today.
Quoting javi2541997
Well, they are not dilemmas for me! :smile:
Quoting javi2541997
Please hold on while I look it up ... OK, don't do that either! :grin:
That's true! It is interesting to make different questions about philosophy to the AI. Yet, I am not confident enough to do so because it is more intelligent than me and probably it starts to answer with messages that I am not able to understand at all! :lol:
Quoting Alkis Piskas
I wish the AI continues as we know it in nowadays. Otherwise, such programmes and chats would be able to replace us!
One of the things I don't like at all about this topic is the "program" of AI to make painting or "arts". To be honest, I am against such acts. Art can only be interpreted by someone who has a soul, thus the humans.
Quoting Alkis Piskas
Imagine trying to do a PhD on philosophy with the OpenAI :lol:
Quoting Alkis Piskas
Well, give me a chance to at least debate with the AI about samurais and haiku poems :flower: :blush:
I just asked if the AI if it can write a haiku and it says:
Me: Can you write a haiku poem?
OpenAI: Yes, here's one:
In the still of night
Moon rises, casting its light
Peaceful and serene.
Oh jesus! This completely disturbed my mind for minutes!
Here. I just asked OAI as question about the subhect that I am discussing in parallel to this, about information and the physical universe (https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/775695):
Me: "Is the physical universe digital?"
OAI: "No, the physical universe is not digital. While some physical phenomena can be modeled and represented with digital data, the physical universe itself is not inherently digital. It operates according to physical laws and behaves in continuous and analog ways, rather than in the discrete and binary manner of digital systems."
And the answer was instantaneous this time!
Well, I'm glad to "hear" that, because most people try desperately --for an unknown to me reason-- to make the physical universe digital in nature!
Of course, I can't present this answer to the discussion, because I will "hear" things like "And what a robot can really know about this?" :grin: Well, go figure now how to explain to them that this robot gets information from people's opinions and standard references in the Web! :smile:
Please check your INBOX.
Please check your INBOX.
How interesting is, right? We can use the OAI just to check what the programme would answer to different philosophical enquiries about the threads of this forum. Imagine the AI as a member of TPF, it could be so interesting... taking part in threads or even being able to starting a thread itself about whatever the AI considers as "philosophical"
I going to do it right now!
Me: How many chances of winning the Nobel prize of literature Yukio Mushima had?
OpenAI: Yukio Mishima was considered a contender for the Nobel Prize in Literature during his lifetime. However, the Nobel Prize is not publicly announced as a list of nominees or a ranking of potential winners, and the decision-making process of the Swedish Academy is confidential. It is not possible to determine how many chances Mishima had of winning the Nobel Prize, as the academy does not release information about its evaluations or discussions. Nevertheless, Mishima's contributions to Japanese literature and his international reputation as a writer have secured his place in literary history.
Hmmm... Interesting looks like that the AI suffers with the opaque information. :chin:
Can't say ... You caught me off guard!
:grin: I got the same feeling about the AI’s response!
Now that we are remembering Mishima in The Shoutbox, and his romantic concept of death (suicide)... :flower:
I also want to mention @180 Proof who always shared with me interesting views on his works.
My passion for reading his novels has been diminishing in the last year, but his idea of death and living still impact me.
We live in an age in which there is no heroic death...
I agree that the 'machine learning' is not impressive as a tool of new interpretation and discovery. It always has the tone of a college paper cribbed from reading Cliff notes. It is a sophisticated version of "I know you are but what am I?
Well, tell this to ChatGPT iself. It was its own reply. :smile:
Ask OpenAI what it "thinks" of Nishitani's "overcoming nihilism through nihilism". :smirk:
I watched the video. The author gives a nice and precise introduction to Nishitani's work.
Honestly, I felt a bit anxious and despaired after reading some quotes by him. It is true that I should have already used to that kind of nihilism or existentialism after reading Dostoevsky or Mishima, but I got the impression that Nishitani reached deep into the abyss. The paradox of stating that there is not a point in existing but, at the same time, this 'experience' or 'thought' is just a shadow of ourselves hit me hard.
I understand everything he went through when he was an adolescent, but I guess Nishitani dived into the darkness of the abyss when he thought it was 'normal' to sit there as a spectator and watch how everything is meaningless. He is above all existentialists I knew until now.