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How to Solve it?

Agent Smith January 24, 2023 at 09:15 5975 views 42 comments
The title of the thread is taken from the title of a book by a Mr. Polya (mathematician).

I propose a radical method of solving problems, one which I simply copy-pasted (me not an original thinker) from nature. True that DNA replication is hi-fidelity i.e. errors are rare and if they do occur, mirabile dictu, there's a proof-reading mechanism. Nevertheless, errors aka mutations do occur. Most are, as geneticists like to call them, silent (damage = 0), others can be debilitating and still other lethal. That however seems to be a price worth paying if you consider how we must be adaptable to an everchanging environment. In short our weakness is our strength.

Furthermore, there doesn't appear to be a trend in the mutation rate - it's probably constant at some value and has been for at least 2.5 million years. That is to say, our genes are selecting for errant genes, the ones that do make mistakes. The essence of nature's approach: solve problems by making mistakes.

So, can we solve problems this way, following nature's lead?

Problem? Go make a mistake!

Comments (42)

punos January 24, 2023 at 10:13 #775394
Quoting Agent Smith
So, can we solve problems this way, following nature's lead?


"“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.” - Thomas Edison

It's how the light bulb was invented. Many scientific discoveries were made by accident. These discoveries have had a major impact on the world and are often attributed to chance circumstances or serendipity. It's poking around in the dark most of the time, but with every new discovery the light of humanity becomes slightly ever so brighter.

Observe how a new born baby learns to move it's arms and legs or use it's vocal cords effectively and in a coordinated way. First it moves randomly while little by little through a complex cybernetic feedback process the child learns to direct it's movements more purposefully. This process is called "motor babbling", and nature in her evolutionary process works in a very similar way.

The more evolved we become the more intelligently evolution works through us. Evolution is both the subject and the object of nature, and it steps on it's own shoulders to reach higher and higher.
Agent Smith January 24, 2023 at 10:30 #775395
Reply to punos

Nice! The happy mistake, the blessing in disguise, the lion that scared away the wolves. :cool:
punos January 24, 2023 at 10:31 #775396
Reply to Agent Smith

Another example i forgot to mention is how DeepMind's AlphaGo AI learned to play Go by playing itself over and over. It was only given the rules of the game and used reinforcement learning to become a superhuman player. It only had the rules of the game to work with, and it had to make many mistakes before it became the best 'Go' player to ever exist, starting with random moves. Master level players are still studying it's moves, sometimes perplexed as to why it made certain counter intuitive moves.
Agent Smith January 24, 2023 at 10:34 #775398
Reply to punosI wasn't exactly talking about learning. Close enough nonetheless.
punos January 24, 2023 at 10:36 #775402
Reply to Agent Smith

Clarify for me what you were asking exactly or talking about? It appears that i might have misunderstood.
Agent Smith January 24, 2023 at 10:39 #775405
Reply to punos@180 Proof, make the correct mistake.
punos January 24, 2023 at 10:48 #775408
Quoting Agent Smith
make the correct mistake.


If the solution to a problem takes one step then one correct mistake would suffice, but if a problem needs more than one step then it takes a series of mistakes; each correct mistake becomes the platform for the next correct mistake, which takes some kind of learning. Learning is essentially a mistake eliminating process that gets you to the right mistake.
180 Proof January 24, 2023 at 14:26 #775447
Reply to Agent Smith
Quoting punos
Learning is essentially a mistake eliminating process that gets you to the right mistake.

Aka intelligence. :clap: :100:
Agent Smith January 24, 2023 at 14:49 #775450
Quoting 180 Proof
Aka intelligence. :clap: :100:


Genes keep making the same mistake (mutation) over and over again ... that's life's little secret. :zip: don't tell anyone.
Jack Cummins January 24, 2023 at 16:44 #775463
Reply to Agent Smith
It may be like the creative and experimental process in evolution itself. Amidst a backdrop of chaotic mistakes some kind of evolution and transmutation of consciousness may take place. In human consciousness the emotional experiences related to mistakes leads to different approaches. It may parallel evolution itself as a form of cosmic tuning process.

There are probably biological aspects of this, and Rupert Sheldrake's idea of morphic resonance points to the way in which there is some inherent memory in nature itself. On the genetic level, there is some speculation that junk DNA may contain more about potential than previously thought, especially about emotional development. The psychology of making mistakes has a profound influence on wellbeing and, it may be that the experience of suffering itself involves a shift in awareness and consciousness.
Agent Smith January 24, 2023 at 16:57 #775468
Reply to Jack Cummins Hi Jack.

That's a lot to digest mon ami. I suppose there's method to (nature's) madness. Does that sum up your thesis?
Jack Cummins January 24, 2023 at 22:06 #775535
Reply to Agent Smith
The philosophy question may be whether there is any 'method' beyond our meaning and understanding of it. Making mistakes is our human way of seeing it and within nature it may be just about diversity and what works as an evolutionary pathway. Perhaps, there are no mistakes ultimately and it is about human framing, although the idea of 'mistakes' is probably important in trying not to repeat that which has not achieved desired goals.
jgill January 25, 2023 at 04:54 #775612
Quoting Agent Smith
The essence of nature's approach: solve problems by making mistakes.


Mathematics in a nutshell. The cleaning lady of a famous mathematician was asked what the guy did. She replied, "He scribbles on paper, scowls at it, and wads it up and throws it away."
Agent Smith January 25, 2023 at 04:56 #775613
Reply to Jack Cummins

By mistake I refer to genotypes that cause morbidity and mortality e.g. sickle cell anemia which is a case in point because the sickle cell trait is strength in malaria zones like subsaharan Africa, but is a weakness in nonmalaria zones like Europe. For a European, the sickle cell trait is an illness, but for subsaharan Africans it's a lifeline against severe/complicated malaria.
Agent Smith January 25, 2023 at 04:57 #775614
Quoting jgill
Mathematics in a nutshell. The cleaning lady of a famous mathematician was asked what the guy did. She replied, "He scribbles on paper, scowls at it, and wads it up and throws it away."


:lol: Trial and Error?!
jgill January 25, 2023 at 05:00 #775615
Quoting Agent Smith
:lol: Trial and Error?!


Utter reality, believe me! You make a sequence of mistakes, altering things as you go along, hoping the sequence converges to the result you're after.
Agent Smith January 25, 2023 at 05:10 #775618
Quoting jgill
Trial and Error?!
— Agent Smith

Utter reality, believe me! You make a sequence of mistakes, altering things as you go along, hoping the sequence converges to the result you're after


Two wrongs make a right?

2 + 184 + 453 - 2 = 637. I thought 2 was a 7 and I added it; I made the same mistake again (thought 2 was a 7), but this time I subtracted it and got the right answer. Some problems have a nature that mistakes cancel each other out. This is the nub of random error as opposed to systematic error.

jgill January 25, 2023 at 05:16 #775621
Quoting Agent Smith
Two wrongs make a right?


Wrong, you are not right. :brow: You keep moving in a direction, making changes as you go along, hoping for a flash of inspiration or a breakthrough. It's rare that you can see a complicated proof in its entirety at the beginning. :cool:
Agent Smith January 25, 2023 at 05:21 #775622
Quoting jgill
Wrong, you are not right. :brow: You keep moving in a direction, making changes as you go along, hoping for a flash of inspiration or a breakthrough. It's rare that you can see a complicated proof in its entirety at the beginning. :cool:


I was hopin' for errors to lead to correct results. I believe @punos made a reference to accidental discoveries. For example, Roentgen carelessly leaves an X-ray source + a photographic plate + his wedding ring ( :wink: ) in a drawer and we now have X-ray machines, a godsend for orthopedicians around the world.
Agent Smith January 25, 2023 at 05:26 #775623
It appears that nature's strategy is Ariadne's thread. Go down one possibility branch. If it doesn't work, go back to the node from which it originated, try the other branch and if that doesn't work, assuming there are only two branches on that node, go to the next higher node, so and so forth. Remember though that each branch is a mistake (a mutation in an otherwise stable genotype).
Agent Smith January 25, 2023 at 05:55 #775628
W + W = W[sup]2[/sup] [Problem]
[s]W[/s] + W = [s]W[/s][sup]2[/sup] [Mistake]
Ergo,
W = 2 [Correct Answer]

:cool:
punos January 25, 2023 at 06:23 #775630
Quoting Agent Smith
If it doesn't work, go back to the node from which it originated, try the other branch and if that doesn't work, assuming there are only two branches on that node, go to the next higher node, so and so forth.


Yep you are essentially right, but i would adjust your statement to say that nature (evolution) explores all possible branches in parallel in the available environment. Each species and even each individual it produces adaptively explores their respective niches at the same time, and if a certain niche leads to a dead end (wrong mistake) then that species or individual dies or stagnates, so no need to backtrack; even though i imagine it may still happen in some circumstances.

Quoting Agent Smith
Remember though that each branch is a mistake (a mutation in an otherwise stable genotype).


Right, every correct mistake gets preserved in that species or individual for the next generation, and the wrong mistakes get deselected from active genetic circulation. :up:

:smile:
Agent Smith January 25, 2023 at 06:30 #775631
Reply to punos :up:

The retracing of the steps back as in Ariadne's thread is a feature of sequential processing. Nature's a parallel processor, like you seem to be implying. The Tree of Life sprouts many limbs simultaneously.
180 Proof January 25, 2023 at 07:08 #775639
Reply to Agent Smith Well maybe Nature quantum computes (with an OS like "MWI" or "M-theory" or "RQM"). :nerd:
Agent Smith January 25, 2023 at 07:29 #775642
Reply to 180 Proof

Indeed, decidely computer-like, using a brute-force search algorithm.
180 Proof January 25, 2023 at 07:45 #775649
Quoting Agent Smith
Indeed, decidely computer-like, using a brute-force search algorithm.

i.e. Natural selection :up:
punos January 25, 2023 at 07:48 #775654
Quoting Agent Smith
Indeed, decidely computer-like, using a brute-force search algorithm.


It's funny that you say that because i think about the forces of nature as akin to simple algorithms like how gravity tends to sort matter by specific density, and electro-magnetism tries to bring unlike charges together, but keep like charges apart. The strong and weak nuclear forces are a bit more mysterious, but they still seem to function as algorithms of some sort.
Agent Smith January 25, 2023 at 07:50 #775655
Reply to punos If you simulate a cannonball, the computer has to perform actual calculations for the trajectory. Is our universe (also) a computer?
punos January 25, 2023 at 07:55 #775656
Quoting Agent Smith
If you simulate a cannonball, the computer has to perform actual calculations for the trajectory. Is our universe (also) a computer?


I don't have a better way to think about it than the universe being some sort of computational system. I hesitate to call it a computer since i don't want to give the impression of an ultimate programmer with complex intentions.
punos January 25, 2023 at 08:11 #775658
Reply to Agent Smith

Comparing the universe to a computer:
----------------------------------------------------
universe = computer
energy = power / electricity
time = processor
space = memory
instructions = logic
information / data = matter
ecosystems = operating systems
organisms = programs
forces = daemons or algorithms
180 Proof January 25, 2023 at 08:16 #775659
Quoting punos
I hesitate to call it a computer since i don't want to give the impression of an ultimate programmer with complex intentions.

:up: Yeah, the universe-as-"computer" notion is like interpreting evolution as caused or directed by an "Evolver". Re: vestigial anthropomorphic bias (à la animism).
punos January 25, 2023 at 08:35 #775662
Quoting 180 Proof
Yeah, the universe-as-computer notion is like interpreting evolution as caused or directed by an "Evolver"


Correct. It is not to say that our universe could not be a simulation with a complex programmer behind it, because even if that were true the programmer and his universe must be explained in the same way regardless. The true universe behind any simulation could still resemble how a simulation works computationally, but the factor by which it forms must not exceed some minimal level of complexity. So no complex gods or entities with high level intentions, motivations, and advanced knowledge at the Alpha point. It's more reasonable to put such entities at or close to an Omega point universal singularity.

Does this sound reasonable to you?
180 Proof January 25, 2023 at 08:49 #775664
Reply to punos Well my barber's name is Occam... A Matryoshka doll universe-simulation seems to me as silly as "geocentric epicycles" and "turtles all the way down". I've no problem with the universe conceived of as a simulation, just the universal "simulator" / "programmer" add-on.
punos January 25, 2023 at 08:55 #775665
Reply to 180 Proof
You don't think it's possible for an advanced civilization that evolved naturally to create a simulation in an actual real world computer that produces artificial intelligent life that then goes on to create their own simulation inside their own simulated computer?
180 Proof January 25, 2023 at 10:15 #775670
Reply to punos Sure; but only the "naturally evolved" universe is fundamental, or real. The "simulations" are merely virtual.
Jack Cummins January 25, 2023 at 11:08 #775679
Reply to Agent Smith

What you are saying about the two aspects of the sickle cell/malaria trait is true of most parts of life, with all flaws in nature having an up and a downside. For example, it was through the exploration of diseases that so much was known about the body and science. This applies to all aspects of culture too. The grave horror and sufferings of the first and second war were a starting point for the revolutionary movements of the 1960s, including so much social change.

It goes back to the yin and the yang, formerly known as the problem of good and evil. It is encouraging really because it shows that suffering caused by 'mistakes' may be potential for positive innovation and creativity.

I am writing this from a rather difficult situation, probably due to many mistakes of myself and others. I am in the process of moving from the accommodation where I am now as it is being repossessed. At the moment, I have half my things in the old place and half in the new, hoping to get out of here properly by Friday. Yesterday, at the old place where I am there was a big crash and the kitchen ceiling collapsed. Fortunately, no one was hurt but it is really unsafe as there is a great big gaping hole, foam coming through and wires exposed and it is not possible to use the bathroom without going through the kitchen. So, I am agonising over sorting, almost tempted to leave a ghastly mess behind here and get out of here asap.

What I am trying to illustrate by my own anecdotal story is that the outcomes of mistakes are critical juncture for innovation and change. In human beings there is the question of what we learn from mistakes, which is the psychological factor in the any evolutionary perspective on 'mistakes' or flaws in nature.
Agent Smith January 25, 2023 at 16:28 #775743
Agent Smith January 25, 2023 at 16:42 #775749
Reply to Jack Cummins Well, one thing's for sure, we fear making mistakes and that discombobulates you and then you actually make a mistake, the one you most didn't want to, and that further discombobulates you, you make more mistakes - the death spiral terminates when your world comes crashing down around your ears, psychologically speaking. The vicious cycle consisting of two mutually reinforcing forces (fear and mistakes) has claimed many lives, young, old, men, women, even gods.
Jack Cummins January 25, 2023 at 19:18 #775770
Reply to Agent Smith
The vicious cycle of mistakes and fear is probably central to the idea of karma and what is learned through the consequences of action, with the principle, 'As you sow, so shall you reap.' It does seem for many people it is a vicious cycle of similar experiences as a basis for experiential learning and reflection.

There are also the big and the small mistakes as a spectrum. The big ones are those such as criminal acts, including murder, which alter the course of one's life entirely. For most people, however, it is more about wrong jobs, courses and failed relationships, which lead to regrets. It can be hard to avoid getting stuck in wallow in self pity or recrimination and move on. Everyone goes at different paces and,often, 'quick fixes' as solutions don't work.

There is so much variation in what is learned practically and how much is part of the philosophy quest itself. Perhaps, in the grand scheme of human life mistakes may lead a person to go deeper in the search for wisdom and understanding.
180 Proof January 25, 2023 at 21:09 #775790
[quote=Winston Churchill]Success is stumbling from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm.[/quote]
Agent Smith January 26, 2023 at 00:03 #775824
Agent Smith January 26, 2023 at 00:04 #775825