God as ur-parent
In the universe of a child, the parents lie squarely in the center. They are God and Satan, alpha and omega. They are the law, they giveth and they taketh away. They anoint with the benediction of Good Child, and the next day Wicked Child is cast into Hades.
But there comes a time, always, when these Gods fall like meteors from the sky, to crash in a crater of mundanity. These Gods are human, all too human, utterly fallible, utterly nondivine. The child's worldview crashes into tatters, because it was merely the child's delusion, the tapestry becomes stretched and torn until it must crumble into dust.
There is a certain kind of mindset which finds this new universe not exhilarating, but a hollow arena of misery and emptiness. I call this mindset conservative: it rejects the new world, unadorned by parental Gods, as malignant, as nihilistic. The void must be filled: they fill it with The Parent, but taken to the logical extreme: the parent of all parents, which undergirds all meaning and all judgement until the end of time.
God and Gods fill such a vast, and largely unexamined, need, that they will never go away. Their services will always be required, by some.
But there comes a time, always, when these Gods fall like meteors from the sky, to crash in a crater of mundanity. These Gods are human, all too human, utterly fallible, utterly nondivine. The child's worldview crashes into tatters, because it was merely the child's delusion, the tapestry becomes stretched and torn until it must crumble into dust.
There is a certain kind of mindset which finds this new universe not exhilarating, but a hollow arena of misery and emptiness. I call this mindset conservative: it rejects the new world, unadorned by parental Gods, as malignant, as nihilistic. The void must be filled: they fill it with The Parent, but taken to the logical extreme: the parent of all parents, which undergirds all meaning and all judgement until the end of time.
God and Gods fill such a vast, and largely unexamined, need, that they will never go away. Their services will always be required, by some.
Comments (34)
I think it's just the opposite. A childhood with good parents - not exceptional, just good enough - teaches children that the world is understandable and that they belong here. It gets built into them and provides the foundation for their lives. Of course, all sorts of things can go wrong - bad parents, parents death, war. That foundation can be damaged or may never form. I don't think my children ever thought my wife and I were like gods. They did think we could protect them, were interested in them, and cared for them. Turns out my family was lucky - we could, we were, and we did.
Quoting hypericin
This seems like an attempt to undermine belief in God by explaining it away as a psychological foible. I don't see that as a valid argument.
The problem with this sort of armchair analysis is just that, that it is theorized and then verified without any investigation beyond sorting through your own thoughts.
That is a good description.
I see it as valid.
You’re wrong.
Good to know, thank you.
[quote=Jackson]Good to know, thank you.[/quote]
:snicker:
How would anyone find their "God's falling like meteors from the sky" exhilarating? You're describing a complete paradigm shift in which the universe is no longer safe but rather alien. It's total existential crisis. As @Hanover mentioned, the whole thing smacks of personal projection, a rationalization of a personal experience.
Not really. It is the story of the Garden of Eden and the Fall.
Not really.
Goodnight.
Give thoughtful, substantive responses and I'll be happy to have a conversation.
:up:
Sweet dreams!
Which part doesn't ring true? If it's the religion, of course this is totally speculation. But if it's the godlike elemental primacy of parents in early childhood, then it's true, I thought this was shared experience. I can't say I've discussed it much, but I've seen the notion several times in literature.
It's a crisis, which is fearful, but at the same time you get to experience the universe stripped of false gods, which is exhilarating.
No. It's not true. Clearly this is not a shared experience. "Seeing the notion several times in literature" does not constitute evidence.
Can you explain more what you're referring to? So far the discussion is interesting but a bit vague.
That well describes my experience as a parent. A sharp reduction of arrogance. There is still something to keep between generations.
To the extent God is portrayed in an anthropomorphic way, and especially in a paternalistic way (as in God the father), there is a parallel between parents and God. How far individual families extend that metaphor would vary by family, but it's not a universal experience to have parents that present themselves as absolute infallible entities. I never had the experience and I never thought of my parents as occupying a superhuman role.
Again, this isn't to deny your experience. You might have had parents that were placed upon a godly pedestal only to be disillusioned when you learned otherwise, but that says more about your upbringing than it does about fundamental human family structures.
I did not read his comment that way. The story of the Garden of Eden is based on the idea that God (the father; the authority) punished humans (children) for being disobedient. The lesson is we should obey God, regardless of how good our parents are.
Not put on a pedestal. However, they were the center of my universe, to a degree that was strongerthe younger I was.
Forget the emotional side. Factually, the parallel between God and parents is far stronger than you suggest. Both are givers of life. Both provide sustainance. Both decide right and wrong. Both reward virtue, and punish misdeeds. Both are turned to when in distress, and for guidance. Both are to be obeyed, above all others.
These godly features of parents are not idiosyncratic to my upbringing. Gods are parents taken to an abstract ideal.
I don't want to suggest that this process of disillusionment and subsequent turn to religion is recapitulated in every religious individual. Rather, the centrality of parents to the young is a feature of our culture, and religion is a collective response to the inevitable disillusionment this leads to.
Does this help explain?
I don't see the Garden of Eden mentioned in the OP. Nowhere in the story of Eden does it talk about parents and the duties owed to them. The commandment related to parents (which occurs much later) states you should "honor" your parents, which does not mean to obey, and it actually doesn't even mean to love.
I'd also disagree with you that the Bible is written to mean you are not to challenge the authority of God (or, by extrapolation, one's parents). There are plenty of instances where the authority of God is challenged by humans and even instances where he relents after being challenged.
I'm just pointing out that your biblical analysis is highly interpretative and not bound by the text.
I probably should not comment on this thread.
I am in full agreement with you.
I don't mind making a metaphorical connection between God and parents, but you've made a stronger argument than that:
Quoting hypericin
This implies that religion developed historically as a response to our disappointment with our parents. You've used that to undermine the credibility of those who believe in God. That's what I object to.
I suggest that instead of facing the falsity of parental "gods", the religious invent new ones to take their place.
Either the content of religions are factually true, or they arose historically for one reason or another. Does the reason I suggest impugn your credibility more than any other?
You have a definite point here. From the viewpoint of Christian or theistic existentialism, its all about the single human person standing alone before God (and I’m not arguing for a particular concept of God). Kierkegaard says it nicely in his Journals:
“My focus should be on what I do in life, not knowing everything, excluding knowledge on what you do. The is key to find a purpose, whatever it truly is that God wills me to do; it's crucial to find a truth which is true to me, to find the idea which I am willing to live and die for.“
This I think is the whole point of faith in a Power greater than oneself.
There's Shinto/animism, where just about everything is a god/spirit.
There's the Greek pantheon of elitist soap opera fickle pricks, playing chess with mortals, susceptible to bribes.
There's the Egyptian animal headed figures of the immortal other world (a bit alien/weird from my point of view).
You could just as well ascribe kingship/sovereign to a God who is the arbiter of law/morality/truth/duty/value/identity.
Maybe loosely the family stands in relation to the patriarch as the village stands in relation to the king/leader.
God is probably a strong model/reflection for the head of the household in a Christian context. The figure informs and is informed by the social reality of those who live by it.
Guess Italians traditionally love the Madonna because they prefer mom to dad. Mamma mia (oh mother).
_______
The fragmentation of old cultures with the turn of the englightenment and technological age, Capitalist commodification, alienation, atomization, might bear some responsibility for a nostalgia of more simple yesterday, when you could find answers/guidance in God. This surely parallels the individual's crisis of having to go out into a shitty world, after leaving family, and pull on one's bootstraps in the nihilistic rat race. Maybe if we had a God (imaginary parent) we could pray for guidance. But who believes in that anymore?
New people are born on daily basis, there will always be fresh flesh willing to experience God.
What you or me learned or concluded, ex. such that there is no God or that God is something else or anything that would undermine God does not have any effect on new flesh being born.
There will always be new people.
Historically child rearing was collective in the community. Maybe not for every polytheistic ancient culture, but these were historically nearer to hunter gatherers, from which some residue of religious tradition might remain.
But anyway, I don't want to argue so strongly that this dynamic is solely responsible for theism, in all times and cultures. Just that in western culture that it was a salient, maybe predominant factor, in its origin and/or persistence.
Quoting Nils Loc
I think this is also likely true.
Quoting Nils Loc
Agreed.
Don't most religious people in the world stay religious from childhood?