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Mysticism and Madness

Deleted User May 19, 2022 at 13:20 6925 views 84 comments
[quote=Joseph Campbell]The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight.[/quote]

I'd like to take a look at the link between madness and mysticism. I get that in some cases these reports of odd behavior may have a non-literal application. I'd like to overlook that fact for the moment and take the prophets (and others) at their word.

We'll kick it off with the Bible:

"Consider Isaiah, who stripped off all his clothes and wandered around naked (Isaiah 20). Or Jeremiah, who not only hid his underwear in a rock but then went back to retrieve it after a “long time” (Jeremiah 13). Jeremiah apparently didn’t mind parting with under garments, but he couldn’t be separated from the cattle yoke he had fastened to his shoulders until another prophet broke it off (Jeremiah 27 and 28). Yet another eyebrow-raiser was Hosea, who married a prostitute and named their daughter Lo-ruhama, which means ‘unloved’ (Hosea 1)."

https://catholicexchange.com/crazy-prophets-old-testament



"Ezekiel lived and worked at the same time as Jeremiah, so clearly a lot was going on, and his acts had a flair for the…shall we say, desperate? He ate a chunk of the scripture parchment, to illustrate that the word of God was sweeter than honey. He lay for 390 days before a brick to reenact the siege of Jerusalem. He cut off his hair with a sword and burned a third of it in the city center.

Basically, he was the town weirdo. If you saw him pacing down the street, you crossed to the other side. In life, he was probaby a fairly offputting dude."

https://redshoesfunnyshirt.com/2017/09/12/ezekiel-the-crazy-prophet/


Here we have Ezekiel eating a sweet-tasting scroll:

"Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness."

Ezekiel 3



Comments (84)

Hillary May 19, 2022 at 14:23 #697666
Joseph Campbell:The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight.


The mystic hears the music in the water and swims while dancing. If you can't hear the music it's hard to dance.
javra May 19, 2022 at 17:44 #697780
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
I'd like to take a look at the link between madness and mysticism.


Since this is a philosophy forum, what I take to be commonsense reasoning: That some X’s are Y’s and some Y’s are X’s does not imply that all X’s are Y’s and vice versa, thereby requiring a linkage between the two.

Not all mystics are schizophrenics, and not all schizophrenics are mystics.

Treating the two as though they are linked is as irrational, to not say irresponsible, as would be the prejudicial conviction that there is a linkage between materialists and idiocy - to address an example that a materialist might better grasp.

The fact of life that some materialists are idiots, and that some idiots are materialists, does not then rationally imply that there is a linkage between idiocy and materialism. Same with any contrived linkage between madness and mysticism.

Unless, of course, one assumes that (intelligent?) materialist platform from which any spiritual insight or experience is indicative of unhealth - this by sheer fact of not being accordant to a materialistic world view of reality.
Deleted User May 19, 2022 at 17:58 #697787
Reply to javra

If some Xs are linked to some Ys - but we grant that not all Xs are linked to all Ys - there is still a link, an analyzable link, between X and Y. That my analysis assays to address the link (the link itself - which clearly exists if some Xs are linked to some Ys) doesn't appear irrational or irresponsible to me. Rather, it's a focused, limited analysis of what interests me most about X and Y.
javra May 19, 2022 at 18:02 #697791
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
If some Xs are linked to some Ys - but we grant that not all Xs are linked to all Ys - there is still a link, an analyzable link, between X and Y.


If some cars are linked to some red things - but we grant that not all cars are linked to all red things - there is still a link, an analyzable link, between car and red thing.

I'm not getting it, but OK.
Deleted User May 19, 2022 at 18:08 #697792
Reply to javra

If some set of cars are linked to some set of red things, there is an analyzable link between said set of cars and said set of red things.

I think you're concocting difficulties where none are obvious.

At any rate, this thread isn't interrogating the existence of a link between mysticism and madness. I begin with the premise - the assumption, if you like - more accurately, the hypothesis, grounded in lifelong more or less scholarly interest in and research of both phenomena - that a link exists between mysticism and madness.

I appreciate your challenge, challenges are fun.
javra May 19, 2022 at 20:44 #697880
I said that I’m not getting it and that it’s OK by me, and I stand by that. But in speaking to someone aiming for the mental health professions, where choices are made in who is and is not insane:

Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
If some set of cars are linked to some set of red things, there is an analyzable link between said set of cars and said set of red things.


The only link between cars and red things I can find is that some cars will be red things and vice versa - which of itself doesn’t say much regarding the link between cars and red things. One could abstract that both are objects but, again, can't find the importance to this in terms of links. What other significant “links” between these two categories can you think of?

Edit: "If there is a link, then there is a link," is a bit tautological, imo, and doesn't of itself evidence there being a link to begin with.

Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
I think you're concocting difficulties where none are obvious.


Which I’m in obvious disagreement with.

Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
At any rate, this thread isn't interrogating the existence of a link between mysticism and madness. I begin with the premise - the assumption, if you like - more accurately, the hypothesis, grounded in lifelong more or less scholarly interest in and research of both phenomena - that a link exists between mysticism and madness.


So, granting that the present Dalai Lama is sincere in his views and thereby a mystic, what would link the present Dalai Lama to madness? And, more concretely: in your view, ought the Dalai Lama be given medications till he holds no more belief in Nirvana and related and/or derivative Buddhist ideas - this on grounds that mysticism is linked to madness?

Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
I appreciate your challenge, challenges are fun.


Consider me here to please.
180 Proof May 19, 2022 at 20:59 #697890
:fire: :eyes:
[quote=Thomas Szasz]If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic.[/quote]

Jackson May 19, 2022 at 21:03 #697892
Thomas Szasz:If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.


If you talk to someone who cannot talk back you are talking to yourself.
javra May 19, 2022 at 21:05 #697895
Reply to 180 Proof And how does that quote address there being a link between mysticism and madness?



Deleted User May 19, 2022 at 21:10 #697901
Quoting javra
So, granting that the present Dalai Lama is sincere in his views and thereby a mystic, what would link the present Dalai Lama to madness?


Joseph Campbell:The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight.


The Dalai Lama is likely a case of swimming.
Deleted User May 19, 2022 at 21:11 #697902
Thomas Szasz:If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic.


:smile:
javra May 19, 2022 at 21:14 #697905
Reply to 180 Proof To clarify my just asked question by example:

A Buddhist mystic with insight into Nirvana will neither talk to Nirvana nor have Nirvana talk back to him/her, yet will be a mystic nonetheless.

Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
The Dalai Lama is likely a case of swimming.


Which doesn't answer any of the questions posed.

So much for challenges being fun, I guess. OK, then.
180 Proof May 19, 2022 at 21:18 #697909
Reply to javra Being a mystic does not preclude her also being a schizophrenic or vice versa.
Deleted User May 19, 2022 at 21:19 #697910
Quoting javra
So much for challenges being fun, I guess. OK, then.


Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
At any rate, this thread isn't interrogating the existence of a link between mysticism and madness.


javra May 19, 2022 at 21:20 #697911
Reply to 180 Proof Which also in no way answers the question.

BTW, https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/697780
180 Proof May 19, 2022 at 21:22 #697912
Reply to javra Reply to javra I can't understand the quote for you.
Deleted User May 19, 2022 at 22:26 #697946
Quoting javra
ought the Dalai Lama be given medications till he holds no more belief in Nirvana and related and/or derivative Buddhist ideas - this on grounds that mysticism is linked to madness?


I never said anything remotely like the above.

Keep reading the thread if you want to learn more about the link. I'll be posting more soon.
Tom Storm May 19, 2022 at 23:52 #697986
Reply to ZzzoneiroCosm I have spent around three decades working with people (generally in psycho-social and addiction settings) who have various forms of psychotic illness - most typically schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder and bi-polar disorder - many of whom were/are untreated. I have met people who think that they are Jesus, God, Krishna, Mohammad, Vishnu, Ironman, Thor, The Grim Reaper, The President of the World Bank, Axel Rose, Marilyn Monroe, Doctor Who, John Lennon, CIA agents, genius physicists and assorted healers and sages. No one ever sees themselves as a bank teller or car wash attendant...

When people lose touch with reality, they often get scared and seek some status to help overcome their fears. My take - big, powerful identities like Monroe or Krishna provides them with a sense of coherence and a ready made myth which brings consolation, along with some kind of power/agency and a mission to work towards - world redemption, bringing love to the world, composing revolutionary music, controlling the financial system, proving god/s, speaking to the dead, healing the sick, whatever it might be.

Everyone I've met has been unique and interesting and they are much more than their illness. And most people when they 'recover' (remission or via medication) report that they are happy to not be experiencing psychosis any more. Naturally, mental illness is a field of huge and varying opinions and theories.
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 00:51 #698010
Reply to Tom Storm Thanks for your thoughts. My ideas about schizophrenia come from the literature: Schreber and other first hand accounts, and especially Louis A. Sass' Madness and Modernism. More to say but no time left tonight. :smile:
180 Proof May 20, 2022 at 01:29 #698018
Reply to Tom Storm I very much appreciate your insights.Thanks.
Tom Storm May 20, 2022 at 01:34 #698021
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 03:33 #698100
Reply to Tom Storm Reply to 180 Proof Reply to javra


[quote=wiki]Mystical psychosis is a term coined by Arthur J. Deikman in the early 1970s to characterize first-person accounts of psychotic experiences[1] that are strikingly similar to reports of mystical experiences.[2][3][4][5] According to Deikman, and authors from a number of disciplines, psychotic experience need not be considered pathological, especially if consideration is given to the values and beliefs of the individual concerned.[6][7] Deikman thought the mystical experience was brought about through a "deautomatization" or undoing of habitual psychological structures that organize, limit, select, and interpret perceptual stimuli.[8] There may be several causes of deautomatization—exposure to severe stress, substance abuse[9][10] or withdrawal, and mood disorders.[11]

A closely related category is mystical experience with psychotic features, proposed by David Lukoff in 1985.[12]

A first episode of mystical psychosis is often very frightening, confusing and distressing, particularly because it is an unfamiliar experience. For example, researchers have found that people experiencing paranormal and mystical phenomena report many of the symptoms of panic attacks.[13]

On the basis of comparison of mystical experience and psychotic experience Deikman came to a conclusion that mystical experience can be caused by "deautomatization" or transformation of habitual psychological structures which organize, limit, select and interpret perceptional incentives that is interfaced to heavy stresses and emotional shocks.[14] He described usual symptoms of mystical psychosis which consist in strengthening of a receptive mode and weakening of a mode of action.

People susceptible to mystical psychosis become much more impressible. They feel a unification with society, with the world, God, and also feel washing out the perceptive and conceptual borders. Similarity of mystical psychosis to mystical experience is expressed in sudden, distinct and very strong transition to a receptive mode. It is characterized with easing the subject—object distinction, sensitivity increase and nonverbal, lateral, intuitive thought processes.[15]

Deikman's opinion that experience of mystical experience in itself can't be a sign to psychopathology, even in case of this experience at the persons susceptible to neurophysiological and psychiatric frustration, in many respects defined the relation to mystical experiences in modern psychology and psychiatry.

Deikman considered that all-encompassing unity opened in mysticism can be all-encompassing unity of reality.[16][/quote]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_psychosis
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 03:39 #698104
Reply to Tom Storm Reply to 180 Proof Reply to javra

The link between the visitation of angels and anxiety and panic attacks:


[quote=Luke 2:8-10]And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people.[/quote]

[quote=wiki]A first episode of mystical psychosis is often very frightening, confusing and distressing, particularly because it is an unfamiliar experience. For example, researchers have found that people experiencing paranormal and mystical phenomena report many of the symptoms of panic attacks.[/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystical_psychosis
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 03:47 #698112
Quoting Tom Storm
I have met people who think that they are Jesus, God, Krishna, Mohammad, Vishnu, Ironman, Thor, The Grim Reaper, The President of the World Bank, Axel Rose, Marilyn Monroe, Doctor Who, John Lennon, CIA agents, genius physicists and assorted healers and sages. No one ever sees themselves as a bank teller or car wash attendant...


This I link to Karen Horney's account of the neurotic pursuit of glory in Neurosis and Human Growth:

[quote=Karen Horney]He will then shift the major part of his energies to the task of molding himself, by a rigid system of inner dictates, into a being of absolute perfection. For nothing short of godlike perfection can fulfill his idealized image of himself and satisfy his pride in the exalted attributes which (so he feels) he has, could have, or should have...Self-idealization, in its various aspects, is what I suggest calling a comprehensive neurotic solution—i.e., a solution not only for a particular conflict but one that implicitly promises to satisfy all the inner needs that have been in an individual at a given time...Moreover, it promises not only a riddance from his painful and unbearable feelings (feeling lost, anxious, inferior, and divided), but in addition an ultimately mysterious fulfillment of himself and his life. No wonder, then, that when he believes he has found such a solution he clings to it for dear life. No wonder that, to use a good psychiatric term, it becomes compulsive. [/quote]

The mystic seeks self-perfection via a system of psychical focus and emotional exuberance and temperance; whereas the neurotic-psychotic seeks self-perfection via a delusional vision of godlike attributes precariously superimposed on the mundane self.


Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 03:56 #698116
Quoting Tom Storm
I have spent around three decades working with people (generally in psycho-social and addiction settings) who have various forms of psychotic illness - most typically schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder and bi-polar disorder - many of whom were/are untreated.


I admire this vocation and the important work you're doing for these suffering psychonauts.

I've been a student of psychology for twenty-five years, now pursuing a license in psychotherapy. I had a rather slight undiagnosed schizoid personality disorder (I believe) in my early twenties (twenty years ago) and my fascination with Modernist literature and art led me to Louis A. Sass's scholarly work, Madness and Modernism - a profound and fascinating explication of the link between schizophrenic experience and the mores and mannerisms of Modernist artistic production. Plenty of first-hand accounts from inordinately articulate and intellectual schizophrenics in this illuminating tome.

I've no doubt Madness and Modernism will be quoted extensively below.
Agent Smith May 20, 2022 at 04:21 #698122
Quoting 180 Proof
Being a mystic does not preclude her also being a schizophrenic or vice versa.


Remember Lewis's trilemma: Either Jesus was Lunatic or Liar or Lord.

That says a lot, doesn't it?

Mythomania, Psychosis and Divine (mysticism included) are all viable hypotheses for Jesus (religious experiences).

However, studies show that those who are mysticism-oriented aren't mentally unstable - they tend to have jobs, families, friends, no criminal records, and have never been diagnosed with a mental affliction.

That said, temporal lobe epilepsy is strongly correlated with mystical experiences.

That is to say, mysticism is an organic brain disorder that can be simulated via psychedelics and/or so-called (deep) meditation.

Fun fact: Brain ECG in meditation looks more like ECG when asleep than when awake. Interesting, oui?
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 04:42 #698125
In describing the preliminary stages of a schizophrenic break - termed the Trema by German psychiatrist Klaus Conrad - Sass writes:

[quote=Sass - Madness and Modernism, p. 43-44]Reality seems to be unveiled as never before, and the visual world looks peculiar and eerie - weirdly beautiful, tantalizingly significant, or perhaps horrifying in some insidious but ineffable way...Fascinated by this vision, the patient often stares intently at the world ...demonstrating the "truth-taking stare"...a relatively normal perception is perceived as having a special kind of meaning...Patients in these moments may have a feeling "of crystal-clear sight, of profound penetration into the essence of things....[/quote] (bolds mine - to underscore the link to mysticism, which I take to be obvious)

*A kind of open-eyed meditation?


The Trema I take to reflect a preliminary unveiling suffered by a mind caught off-guard, unprepared for the mystic heights: Joseph Campbell's "waters" in which the mystic swims and the schizophrenic drowns.
Agent Smith May 20, 2022 at 04:43 #698126
[reply=180 Proof]

Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 04:48 #698127
Quoting Agent Smith
Either Jesus was Lunatic or Liar or Lord.


I do remember that one. I would say part lunatic, part lord.

Part lunatic in that he took himself to be god's gift to humankind - in his own words to the woman at the well.

Part lord in light of his wisdom and poetic genius.
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 04:54 #698131
Quoting Agent Smith
Brain ECG in meditation looks more like ECG when asleep than when awake.


This is precisely how deep meditative states feel: a movement toward sleep and dream while retaining full to partial conscious awareness. (I've been an avid meditator for more than 20 years.)
Agent Smith May 20, 2022 at 04:55 #698132
[quote=ZzzoneiroCosm]I do remember that one. I would say part lunatic, part lord.

Part lunatic in that he took himself to be god's gift to humankind - in his own words to the woman at the well.[/quote]

Helps solve the Good Book's inconsistency problem. Parts of it were God's word when he wasn't a lunatic or a liar, parts of it were when he was one or the other, both even! :up:
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 04:56 #698133
Quoting Agent Smith
However, studies show that those who are mysticism-oriented aren't mentally unstable - they tend to have jobs, families, friends, no criminal records, and have never been diagnosed with a mental affliction.


Yes. The mystic moves slowly, by degrees, gaining mastery, into the waters in which the schizophrenic is plunged suddenly, wholly unprepared.
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 04:58 #698136
Quoting Agent Smith
(deep) meditation.


Deep meditation is not a simulation but mysticism itself.
Agent Smith May 20, 2022 at 05:01 #698137
[quote=ZzzoneiroCosm]This is precisely how deep meditative states feel: a movement toward sleep and dream while retaining full to partial conscious awareness. (I've been an avid meditator for more than 20 years.)[/quote]

I've dabbled in meditation, but I wasn't cut out for it. I'm scatter-brained you see, I couldn't have chosen a worst possible hobby/activity for myself. I'm in a sense waiting for my mind to just collapse on the floor out of sheer exhaustion. 4 decades later, it doesn't seem to be showing any signs of slowing down. :sad:
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 05:03 #698138
Quoting Agent Smith
I'm scatter-brained


Meditation is the antidote for scatterbrainedness. But, sure, it's not for everyone. :smile:
Agent Smith May 20, 2022 at 05:15 #698141
[quote=ZzzoneiroCosm]Meditation is the antidote for scatterbrainedness. But, sure, it's not for everyone. :smile:[/quote]

:up: What's the difference between an unloaded gun and one whose magazine has been emptied? :chin:
Tzeentch May 20, 2022 at 06:31 #698174
Who was it that said that the strength of a man's character can be gauged by the amount of truth he is able to stomach?
I like sushi May 20, 2022 at 06:58 #698181
Reply to ZzzoneiroCosm Psychotic episodes can present in many different forms by way of many different triggers. When it comes to diagnosing someone as bipolar or schizophrenic it is not exactly an easy task because people can, and do, have episodes that look very much like these.

It basically comes down to stressing the body/mind. Alter states of consciousness are trigger by a severe stress - be this culminated over prolonged periods of time (anchorites and such) or brought on by some kind of trauma (strokes and forms of severe psychological stress).

It does not take long to see that every religious prophet was exposed to such stresses.
Agent Smith May 20, 2022 at 07:13 #698185
[quote=I like sushi]It does not take long to see that every religious prophet was exposed to such stresses[/quote]

[quote=Thomas Carlyle]No pressure, no diamonds.[/quote]
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 14:20 #698333
Thomas Carlyle:No pressure, no diamonds.


:cool:
javra May 20, 2022 at 19:25 #698402
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
ought the Dalai Lama be given medications till he holds no more belief in Nirvana and related and/or derivative Buddhist ideas - this on grounds that mysticism is linked to madness? — javra

I never said anything remotely like the above.

Keep reading the thread if you want to learn more about the link. I'll be posting more soon.


I’ve done my fair share of research into psychology and psychiatry. What you and Reply to Tom Storm express are nothing novel to me. I could probably further stoke this fire, so to speak, with other similar observations. So what conclusions do you draw from the [s]links/connections[/s] correlations you’ve presented - and likely will further express - between the experiences of some mystics and the experiences of some madmen?

More concretely asked: Are all insights from the vast array of mystics to be considered the delusional insights of madmen - and, in so being delusional, thereby devoid of any existential truths? Taoism as just one example among many.

I know that the default answer of materialism is “yes”. Nothing novel in this either. Here, any and all spiritual/non-materialist experiences/insights and related reasoning are at best delusional. I’m so far assuming this is your stance - and, if so, so be it.

I’m asking you so as to find out if I’m wrong in so assuming.
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 19:39 #698412
Quoting javra
Are all insights from the vast array of mystics to be considered the delusional insights of madmen - and, in so being delusional, thereby devoid of any existential truths?


Of course not. I've said nothing to suggest that. You've leaped there for unknown reasons. In fact, I consider myself a mystic.
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 19:41 #698413
Quoting javra
I’m asking you so as to find out if I’m wrong in so assuming.


Not only wrong for so assuming but wrong in methodology as apparently your approach is to make a wild, baseless assumption and then a day later ask if it's wrong. I don't get that. Why do that?
javra May 20, 2022 at 19:44 #698414
Reply to ZzzoneiroCosm Alright. Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
Not only wrong for so assuming but wrong in methodology as apparently your approach is to make a wild, baseless assumption and then ask if it's wrong. I don't get that. Why do that?


It's a conclusion that materialists are likely to make ... if not the only logically necessitated conclusion which materialism allows. Oh, and materialists are prevalent on this forum.
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 19:46 #698415
Quoting javra
. So what conclusions do you draw from the links/connections correlations you’ve presented


Now you want to revise my phraseology. I said links and I meant links.
javra May 20, 2022 at 19:48 #698416
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
Now you want to revise my phraseology. I said links and I meant links.


As in there can't be mysticism devoid of schizophrenia, bi-polarity, or the like? We may have different understandings of the term "link".
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 19:49 #698417
Quoting javra
Oh, and materialists are prevalent on this forum.


I know they are but I'm not in their camp. Materialism tells a good part of the story - but any kind of extremism is, to my view, ill-advised.
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 19:51 #698419
Quoting javra
link


Link-a relationship between two things or situations...


https://www.google.com/search?q=link+definition&oq=link+&aqs=chrome.1.69i59l2j0i20i131i263i433i512j0i131i433i512l2j0i67l2j46i131i175i199i433i512j0i433i512j0i271l2.2356j1j4&client=ms-android-google&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 19:57 #698420
Quoting javra
As in there can't be mysticism devoid of schizophrenia, bi-polarity, or the like? We may have different understandings of the term "link".


What I mean to say is there is some kind of relationship (link, connection) between mystical and schizophrenic phenomena and experience. It's a complex relationship (link, connection) and this thread is designed to increase my understanding of it.
javra May 20, 2022 at 20:01 #698422
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
Materialism tells a good part of the story - but any kind of extremism is, to my view, ill-advised.


also

Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
What I mean to say is there is some kind of relationship (link, connection) between mystical and schizophrenic phenomena and experience. It's a complex relationship (link, connection) and this thread is designed to increase my understanding of it.


To be clear, I acknowledge the often occurring commonalities between mysticism and madness so far presented. That said, do you have a working thesis on what distinguishes mysticism from madness that is more philosophically precise than the metaphor of how one deals with waters one is surrounded by?

To me, mystics (that are not madmen self-appraised as mystics) hold insights into (non-materialist) existential truths. At least, that's the best working thesis I have on a whim. At any rate, this to me signifies that materialism/physicalism as a doctrine (and not the presence of the material/physical) is in some way false.
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 20:03 #698423
Quoting javra
That said, do you have a working thesis on what distinguishes mysticism from madness that is more philosophically precise than the metaphor of how one deals with waters one is surrounded by?


No, no thesis yet. Still much more to learn.
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 20:05 #698425
Quoting javra
At any rate, this to me signifies that materialism/physicalism as a doctrine (and not the presence of the material/physical) is in some way false.


There are so many different kinds of materialism presented on the forum - the most extreme materialists I've bumped into deny even the existence of thoughts.

A less extreme materialism may be compatible with mystical experience. This isn't really where I'm focused as I take metaphysics to be a (happily) dying art.

The materialism-antimaterialism debate no longer holds much interest for me.
javra May 20, 2022 at 20:08 #698428
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
The materialism-antimaterialism debate no longer holds much interest for me.


Were it to be so for most. Who knows? Time will tell.
Deleted User May 20, 2022 at 20:44 #698432
Quoting javra
Thanks for the clarification.


Welcome!
Kevin Tan May 20, 2022 at 20:58 #698436
Reply to ZzzoneiroCosm I think this is why the Muslims believe that Mohammed is the last prophet. Because there is something innately disturbing about prophecy. Islamic mysticism is about poetry, not about predicting the future. Jewish mysticism is heavily debated, as everything within the Jewish community has been heavily debated for millennia. Having had psychoses myself, I can certainly tell that there's a very thin line between sanity and insanity. Having almost fully recovered now after 10 years, I can certainly say that the psychoses made my life better. It's about the nuances. There are certainly sanities & insanities in mysticism. But also so much more than that.
Deleted User May 22, 2022 at 03:35 #698927
On the Mad Pride movement:

"Paul Levy [a schizophrenic] eloquently described the initiation process in general terms— but in a manner that clearly reflected his own life journey. “The ordeals, trials, and tribulations that inevitably come our way as part of life and put us ‘through the fire’ are initiations, designed by a higher, divine intelligence, uniquely crafted for and by our soul to burn away our false, egoic personality traits so as to liberate our latent, higher psycho-spiritual potentials.”

Mad Pride [is] a budding grassroots movement, where people who have been defined as mentally ill reframe their conditions and celebrate unusual (some call them “spectacular”) ways of processing information and emotion."

From The Spiritual Gift of Madness
Deleted User May 22, 2022 at 03:51 #698930
Quoting Kevin Tan
I think this is why the Muslims believe that Mohammed is the last prophet. Because there is something innately disturbing about prophecy. Islamic mysticism is about poetry, not about predicting the future. Jewish mysticism is heavily debated, as everything within the Jewish community has been heavily debated for millennia. Having had psychoses myself, I can certainly tell that there's a very thin line between sanity and insanity. Having almost fully recovered now after 10 years, I can certainly say that the psychoses made my life better. It's about the nuances. There are certainly sanities & insanities in mysticism. But also so much more than that.


Etymologically speaking, a prophet is "one who speaks for a god, an inspired preacher or teacher." The connotation of fortune-teller was, to my understanding, a more recent development. The Biblical prophets are, at heart, mystical poets; they may have had a vision of futurity, but a psychological reading of this vision - futurity not as future world, but as future Self - is in every case a practical possibility.

A psychological reading of the book of Revelation has been at the heart of my psychospiritual development; a vision centered in the word Overcome.

[quote=John the Revelator]Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.[/quote]

Chapters 1-20 relate the destruction of the mundane self; chapters 21-22 relate the birth of a 'higher' self; New Jerusalem, by name.

To have the name of god written upon you - this trope, to my view, is a poet's attempt to relay firsthand knowledge of what Maslow called the peak experience.





You may have some interest in the Mad Pride movement, with its roots in R. D. Laing's anti-psychiatric iconoclasm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Pride#:~:text=It%20was%20formed%20in%201993,the%20city%20except%20for%201996.


@Wayfarer (As someone who has without a doubt read deeper into these mysteries than I have, your point of view is always welcome.)
Wayfarer May 22, 2022 at 04:03 #698934
My only thought was that normality is a narrow band of behaviour. It's bell curve.

I wrote a blog post on it some time ago:

It is natural to assume that normality is an end in itself, or that the 'normal' mode of life is all that can be aspired to. People generally hold great stock in normality as a mode of being. But just because normality is our modus vivendi (way of life) does not make it our summum bonum (ultimate end.) Anyone spiritual must realise that normality is simply a transitional state and not the end of life. You don't want to be subnormal, but spirit calls you to be more than normal. It calls you to a state beyond the 'normal' concerns of the 'normal' life.

The way normal people worship fame and riches betrays the notion that, for them, 'normality' defines all our notions of reality and they can conceive of nothing beyond it. For being rich and famous - being a Star - is conceived of by the normal person as being the best thing that normality has to offer. Being A Star is the excellent version of normality, that to which all of us ordinary bourgeois individuals can only aspire. Stardom, or being rich and famous, is the Ultimate in Normality - it represents all of the things which normal people have and enjoy, but in more or less infinite supply and variety. Getting everything you want, in a world where getting what you want is the most important thing. Hence the paparazzi, and a large part of the 'normal' media. People are transfixed by it. They will kill for it. And because most people are normal, then naturally this is an enormous audience.

But I also see a different dimension to the human condition, that of the 'Self-Realised Individual' in the sense defined by the non-dualist schools of Indian culture. Now without going into the profound meaning of this term, let us just say that 'Self Realisation' is definitely not part of the normal condition of humanity. In other words, 'Self Realised Persons' are not 'normal persons'. The normal person is not self-realised, and the self-realised individual is not a normal person.

But self-realised individuals are not sub-normal. They are actually super-normal, they are outside the scope or realm of what we call 'normality'. Yet they are not mad, or psychotic, or degenerate. My thesis is, that if degrees of normality can be represented on the Bell Curve, then the self- realised individual is on the extreme right side of the curve.

So at the far left of the Bell Curve of normality are the sub-normal: psychotics, sociopaths, those who for one reason or another cannot live in 'normal' society (defined by Freud as 'the ability to love and to work').

Then you have the vast bell of the curve, 'normal people', moving, from the left, from those who are barely integrated, through the middle, where almost everyone you will ever know is, to the right of the bell curve, where superbly integrated people are - commensurately few in number, of course.

Then, probably fewer in number than the psychopaths and sociopaths, are the highly integrated humans, those who are as far above 'normality' as your psychopath is below it, on the extreme right of the bell curve.


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I had in mind Abraham Maslow and the other transpersonal psychologists when I wrote that.

I suppose another point that can be mentioned is the idea of 'holy madness'. There is a recognised category, cross-cultural, of the 'holy madman (or woman)' who is 'possessed by God' but also completely fails to observe normal standards of behaviour. Such people might really be clinically insane, but they're said to be not only that, to also have a real 'charism'. You have to dig pretty deep in anthropological literature to find the accounts, but they're both interesting and a bit disturbing. There's closely-related accounts of holy (usually wandering) vagabonds and vagrants who are great spiritual beings in disguise, that are the subject of (usually edifying) tales, often both enlightening and humorous (like the classic Mullah Nasruddin stories from the Islamic culture).
Deleted User May 23, 2022 at 02:32 #699445
Quoting Wayfarer
There's closely-related accounts of holy (usually wandering) vagabonds and vagrants who are great spiritual beings in disguise, that are the subject of (usually edifying) tales, often both enlightening and humorous (like the classic Mullah Nasruddin stories from the Islamic culture).


I remember bumping into the holy mad a decade or so ago. Thanks for the link.
Wayfarer May 23, 2022 at 02:34 #699446
Reply to ZzzoneiroCosm actually not a very good collection of Mullah Nasriddin stories, but I’ve heard some great ones over the years.
Agent Smith May 23, 2022 at 07:07 #699530
@Wayfarer

:clap:

What a post! Superb!

Thanks for the link to Mullah Nasruddin (bookmarked it for later).

The belief in the link betwixt madness & the divine has a long history. For an obviou reason - theists are maniacs - this idea of theia mania has been suppressed in most religions.

I recall reading a definition of delusion in my college years and I'll reproduce it here as best as I can recall it.

Delusion: Belief that one refuses to give up

1. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary

and

2. Is not in keeping with the religion and culture one professes or is a member of.

A very subtle way of denouncing faith if you ask me: You're a lunatic if you believe x even if it's wrong, but perfectly "normal" if x is a doctrine in your faith.
Kevin Tan May 24, 2022 at 17:14 #700297
Reply to ZzzoneiroCosm Thank you. I'm a bit overwhelmed. That verse from Revelation has played a significant part in my life. Or actually the entire Philadelphian letter. It was a dreamvision I had, that was confirmed 3 times in real life in like a week's time. That was 11 years ago and the last 11 years have been CRAZY. Thank God I'm off medication, off psychiatry, off therapies. I would love to write more about 'psychospiritual development'. Perhaps we can share some of our mystical experiences here then. Love, Kevin
Deleted User May 25, 2022 at 13:27 #700532
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Deleted User May 25, 2022 at 15:43 #700571
Reply to Kevin Tan

Hi Kevin. It's great to make this connection with you.

The forum is fairly averse to discussions of personal mystical experience, but I think the lounge rules will allow for it.

So here we go:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13035/post-your-personal-mystical-or-neurotic-psychotic-experiences-here


I had a near-psychotic spiritual illumination 20 years ago, and I think it would be fruitful to try to set it out. I'll take it up when I have the time. :smile:
Deleted User May 25, 2022 at 15:46 #700572
Quoting Kevin Tan
Or actually the entire Philadelphian letter.


Can you link me to this document? Thanks! Google gives me puzzling results.
Kevin Tan May 25, 2022 at 19:00 #700676
Reply to ArielAssante yeah I agree
Kevin Tan May 25, 2022 at 19:02 #700677
Reply to ZzzoneiroCosm Write down My words, and send them to the messenger of the church in Philadelphia. “These are the words of the holy One, the true One, and the One who possesses the key of David, which opens the possibilities so that no one can shut them. The One who closes all options so that no one can open:

8 “I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. I have done this because you have limited strength, yet you have obeyed My word and have not denied My name. 9 Watch, and I will make those of the congregation of Satan—those who call themselves ‘Jews’ but are not because they lie—come before you penitent, falling at your feet. Then they will know how much I have loved you. 10 Because you have obeyed My instructions to endure and be patient, I will protect you from the time of trial which will come upon the whole earth and put everyone in it to the test. 11 I will soon return. Hold tight to what you have so that no one can take away your victor’s wreath.

12 “As for the one who conquers through faithfulness even unto death, I will plant that person as a pillar in the temple of My God, and that person will never have to leave the presence of God. Moreover, I will inscribe this person with the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, New Jerusalem—which descends out of heaven from My God—and My own new name.

God’s intention for the world is this: “I will be your God, and you will be my people.” This is fulfilled by those who are faithful to Him.

13 “Let the person who is able to hear, listen to and follow what the Spirit proclaims to all the churches.”
Deleted User May 25, 2022 at 19:27 #700695
Reply to Kevin Tan Gotcha, I missed the reference. Thanks! :blush:
Kevin Tan May 25, 2022 at 19:29 #700697
Deleted User May 25, 2022 at 19:32 #700701
Reply to Kevin Tan

The entire Revelation - nothing like it to my knowledge in the history of prophetic lit. Incomparable awakened energy. Every other poet-prophet should be jealous.

It's my favorite poem. (I call it a poem...)

Kevin Tan May 25, 2022 at 19:34 #700704
I find it an utterly confusing text! But I hope we can find each other in our understanding of this Apocalypse some day
Deleted User May 25, 2022 at 19:53 #700709
Reply to Kevin Tan

Here's a place to talk about it. The symbology is confusing as hell but in the context of a psychological reading, the general thrust and arc are non-complex.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/13037/psychology-a-psychological-reading-of-johns-revelation
Deleted User May 26, 2022 at 06:58 #700878
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Deleted User May 26, 2022 at 12:20 #700985
Quoting ArielAssante
Maybe I did not understand your intent with this discussion, or maybe you did not understand my comment.



I get that an allegorical reading of the Bible is a sensible approach. But - as something of a mystic myself - the weird words of the prophets I receive in a different light.

Also:

From the OP:

Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
I'd like to take a look at the link between madness and mysticism. I get that in some cases these reports of odd behavior may have a non-literal application. I'd like to overlook that fact for the moment and take the prophets (and others) at their word.
(bolds in the original)



Deleted User May 26, 2022 at 14:31 #701019
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Deleted User May 26, 2022 at 20:21 #701153
Quoting ArielAssante
That is, what society does not understand it labels madness.


This rings true. The Mad Pride movement is an effort to reenvision the relation of the sane and the mad.
Bret Bernhoft May 26, 2022 at 21:43 #701190
The opening quote for this thread is wonderful. But I'm curious, what are the relationships between mystics and shamans? I would wager that there is little difference between a mystic and a shaman, except for perhaps time and place.

Both of these characters/archetypes (the mystic and the shaman) are truly insane, but that's their superpower. A true mystic/shaman will have gone through an initiation, wherein they encountered and transmuted their dis-ease into a whole/healed strength or boon. This is the journey of the hero, which is the monomyth; also a Joseph Campbell concept.

IMO, there is a direct relationship between (what mainstream society labels as) "madness" and the mystic/shaman disposition. Thank you for the relevant and timely post on a subject that is of the upmost importance to our world today, with so many mystics stepping into their own power(s).
Tom Storm May 27, 2022 at 01:37 #701280
Quoting ArielAssante
This is a societal link. That is, what society does not understand it labels madness.


Best not to overstate the case. Sometimes it is indeed madness, with risks to self and others. Also, what society doesn't understand it is quite capable of elevating and worshiping. Hence god/s.
Deleted User May 27, 2022 at 14:32 #701478
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Deleted User May 29, 2022 at 17:05 #702407
[quote=Laing - The Politics of Experience] If the human race survives, future men will look back on our enlightened epoch as a veritable Age of Darkness. The laugh’s on us. They will see that what we call ‘schizophrenia’ was one of the forms in which, often through quite ordinary people, the light began to break in the cracks in our all-too-closed minds.[/quote]
Deleted User May 30, 2022 at 14:42 #702826
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Kevin Tan May 30, 2022 at 16:28 #702869
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
This rings true. The Mad Pride movement is an effort to reenvision the relation of the sane and the mad.


I'm not opposed to psychiatry and psychology. Indeed, it has benefited me a lot. But the idea that these are absolute truths like the laws of physics is just preposterous. And absolutely outrageous
Deleted User May 31, 2022 at 02:15 #703175
Reply to Kevin Tan


I think of psychology as more of an art than a science.
Kevin Tan June 01, 2022 at 15:37 #703895
Quoting Bret Bernhoft
Thank you for the relevant and timely post on a subject that is of the upmost importance to our world today, with so many mystics stepping into their own power(s).


I'm glad you experience it too. Talked to my parents about mysticism for the first time yesterday. My dad looked happy, as if he had waited for this affirmation for a long time. My mother wanted to know what I specifically meant. She's very rational. But it was good.

There's definitely a difference between my psychoses and mystical experiences. My first psychosis was a disaster, it was traumatic for a lot of people and there was nothing mystical about it. Complete insanity.
My second psychosis was also insane, but there was at least some divine aspect to it. And parts of it I cherish. The third psychosis was never diagnosed. But again complete insanity. God it took me so long to recover. I'm glad I'm not in therapy, on medication or institutionalized anymore.