Unwavering Faith
Why did Jews NOT lose their faith in a (benevolent) God?
Horrific atrocities were committed against the Jewish community in Europe between 1939 and 1945 (WW2) by Nazi Germany.
People have become atheists for much less.
It's a sensitive topic and I mean no disrespect to anyone. If the post is offensive (to anyone), my humble apologies; it is not intended to be so.
Horrific atrocities were committed against the Jewish community in Europe between 1939 and 1945 (WW2) by Nazi Germany.
People have become atheists for much less.
It's a sensitive topic and I mean no disrespect to anyone. If the post is offensive (to anyone), my humble apologies; it is not intended to be so.
Comments (75)
[quote=Job 2:10, KJV]But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?[/quote]
:sweat: Amor fati.
Life, aah life, it is its own worst enemy! We could do better, right/wrong?
The forum guidelines say "Don't start a new discussion unless you are...Capable of writing a decent title that accurately and concisely describes the content of your OP.
Also commanded...crimes against humanity! :groan:
Then, either God exists not or God is evil! :sad:
:sad:
Quoting 180 Proof
Just sayin ... :smirk:
Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you [if you do not follow his ways]. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess. (Deut. 28:63)
I was actually wrong here. Later we have:
Ezekiel 18:23
New International Version
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Turns out second translation overrides the first and it comes down to translational issues from the original Hebrew.
Quoting 180 Proof
Ezekiel 18:23
New International Version
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Very many did lose their faith and the enormous cultural or secular Jewish diaspora is, in part, testament to this.
Total BS! The only eternal deities in an eternal non-physical heaven consistent with the ways of the material universe, are the eternal non-physical deities of which all universal lives are temporary material copies, eternally recurring. As simple as that. Your divine counterpart laughs atya... :lol:
Don't overdo it...
:up: Makes sense but I may have commited the false dichotomy fallacy, no? Sadist OR Fiction OR... (say) Divine Retribution for collective sins OR...possibilites we haven't conisdered. An attempt to save the phenomena (keep a benevolent, all-powerful, all-knowing god intact).
I'm stoked as it were that (divine) sadism is indistinguishable from (divine) nonexistence (sadist or fiction). It seems to have a disturbing implication if we taks into account the fact the Leibniz thought our minds were little gods [re zinloos geweld (senseless violence) & Kantian ethics (immorality is a contradiction)]
What sayesr thou?
The points you raised reminds me of the maxim a theory that explains everything explains nothing. I dunno!
Quoting Tom Storm
I see. The mission is not to restore the faith of the Jews in God but in humanity. We all know we're deeply flawed beings, piety is a struggle against our nature. Like I told my son, even if you can't be good, do try. You get points for trying!
Quoting Hillary
Aurea mediocritas, nec quid nimis!
Thank you all for your interesting posts! Good day!
It is a mystery to me why anyone believes in a benevolent God.
I have my fair share of problems and I do pray for help. No divine grace has come my way. I tell myself "He must have more important issues to deal with (He's busy)" rather than "God probably doesn't exist."
My dilemma: Psychosis (theism) or Suffering (atheism). Sic vita est. Well, at least I have choices! :grin:
Please explain. Atheism causes suffering?
(No) help is on its way! I'm on my own!
ok
:ok:
I'd rather lose my mind (theism/psychosis) than live with the awful truth (atheism/dystheism)! :chin:
As a spinozist, I take a dim view of Leibniz's (metaphysical) superstitions.
Quoting Jackson
:up: :up:
Quoting Agent Smith
Another philosophical suicide (aka "pussy"). Better a slave " :pray: " than a fugitive, is that it, Smith?
Holy psychoceramics! :scream:
:ok: How would you describe Leibniz? Too...
Quoting 180 Proof
:grin: When you put it that way, it's quite embarrassing to go the Deputy U.S. Marshal Edward "Teddy" Daniels (Shutter Island) way. However, if we, once in a while, give up the manliness fetish all males "suffer" from, maybe we can gain a deeper insight into such matters? What say you?
Read Candide ...
That's because of the western conception of god or the scientific religion ruling supreme. Richard Dawkins and the likes are revolting against gods because their incapacity to understand and by revolting they show their obedience to science, trying to get the respect of that of the genius physicist they always so aspired to be but lack the genius for.
Candide might be the worst novel I read in college. :sweat:
Although I did love the "One must tend one's own garden" sentiment at the end.
A lot!
Ceramic psycho! Unholy...
It's an aspect of what religious faith is, like "Unwavering Faith".
It has nothing to do with science.
Have you ever received help from other humans?
More on God: I've heard God described as essentially good, and you'll hear Jews describe him as good but not benevolent too often. We have basically no grounds to lay judgment on God as humans as to God's actions however. Read Ecclesiastes - who is really better off the stillborn infant or the wealthy man who fathers many but is unable to enjoy it? It's all dust to dust.
Indeed. It has to do with the western god image.
Please do not tell me what I believe.
Okay, but the gods can be just like people or animals. Who says there is one Super Omni Monster God?
You keep ignoring my actual comments.
You are using rationality to address faith. Faith is belief despite rationality showing you otherwise. There are plenty of rational reasons not to believe in God prior to the Holocaust.
The real question then is, "What causes people to have faith?" Since its not about rationality, its about other things. I think if you ask a lot of people you'll find its community, purpose, morality, and believing in something bigger than yourself.
One could use rationality to address faith as gods offer a reason for bringing the universe into existence.
That's a rationalization, not rationality. A rationalization is a plausible reason we invent to support a belief or desire, but is not necessarily rational. Rationality is not used with the intention to prove or disprove a belief, but see if it holds when placed against critical critique.
Good question! Much appreciated.
Excellent point! I could not make sense of that which is, in a way, nonsense! How dumb of me!
However, I feel there's a connection between faith and intuition and we know the latter isn't exactly irrational, there seems to be a hidden logic that at the present moment remains unfathomable.
[quote=William Cowper]God moves in a mysterious way.[/quote]
A get-out-of-jail card for God. Again, a theory that explains everything explains nothing, oui?
Agreed, but faith can be rational if the theology is coherent.
The reason for my belief is a different reason gods had to create the stuff of the universe. That reason can be rational if science offers no further solace. If the cosmology incorporates all eras of cosmic evolution, what causes are left if not physical? Appearance out of the blue seems more irrational than creation by gods. How can something appear out of nothing?
That last sentence is just a contradiction. I don't know what you're talking about.
When you say "a get out of jail free" card you're already passing judgement. Humans have no idea.
A ToE has a deceiving name. It explains mechanisms at the fundaments only and it is wrongly thought that from this knowledge everything can be explained. The basic principles are know the.
Yeah, a rather silly aspect.
:ok: Good to know.
You'd better do some reading then.
You ought to read Ecclesiastes; it'll challenge your own intuitive value judgments. Humans have no idea how the world ought to be or whose better off or how good or bad events often are because they can't see long term effects. You can't zoom out, we only see things from our limited perspective.
Thanks a million for the advice! Will get on it asap!
Yuval Noah Harari says so in his book Sapiens that what we tell ourselves is progress is actually a series of disasters for mother earth; we, he claims, are the global leaders when it comes to miscalculations. Limited perspective? Bullseye!
:up:
Developmentally, Humans acquired the habit of (make)believing long before, if they ever do, any competence at (critical, defeasible) reasoning. Surveys consistently show that about a third of folks are incorrigible fideists and another third expedient conformists to their familial faiths. "Cause?" False fears (which "the faithful" are socialized to communally self-medicate with ritualized false hopes).
:fire:
Religion is a social practice regardless of the system or dogma.
Yeah, like e.g. patriarchal marriage, debt-peonage, and organized crime.
Did Jews ever believe in a benevolent God? Throughout their own religious stories and texts, God was always something to be feared and usually the source of their greatest misfortunes. From an early perspective, like in Job, God was understood to be the lord of good and evil. Evil generally synonymous with misfortune rather than malevolent intent. Of course, this was the pagan perspective as well as few people would attribute their fortune to any inherent or individual excellence on their own part, but to the favor of some deity and their misfortune to some anger or infraction they committed against some divine or demonic influence.
The idea that something as powerful as a God would care about any individual person's happiness does not really jibe with any stories about the gods or about the Hebrew God. However, we just know about the gods from stories and like Euripides pointed out a few thousand years ago:
"I think not of the gods, as having committed adultery, which is not right, nor as oppressed with chains: I have never thought this worthy, nor ever will believe that one lords it over the others. The god, who is indeed a god, needs nothing: These are the wretched stories of the bards."
With that in mind though, I'd have to say that a great number of Jewish people in the modern era were actually atheist and had been for generations and probably many of those that died in the Holocaust did not believe in God in any case before they went into the camps.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_on_Trial
There is an answer to this, but it's too politically incorrect to talk about it in public.
What's interesting is that in THE ILIAD, the Gods are essentially audience members to the spectacle of the Trojan War that sometimes get involved in the action but are never really invested. The heroes in the war are more like their favorite sports stars or characters in the play - in fact, the attention of the gods mirrors the attention of the audience - either the reader of the epic or the listener.
That is another interesting answer to the "problem of evil" in a world that has a divine presence. There is evil in the world so that God (or the gods) won't get bored with the human race.
Quoting ASmallTalentForWar
I don't know about happiness (what exactly do we mean by that?), but God does care about the individual well-being of Moses which he demonstrates in Exodus among other prophets.
Also:
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? (Ezekiel 18:23)
Quoting ASmallTalentForWar
:100:
[quote=Ms. Marple]Most Interesting.[/quote]
Your post, if accurate, shows how little I know of God and our relationship with Him. What I find really intriguing is how the Jewish Elohim seems hard to distinguish from pagan god(s) - exhibiting qualities like spite, favor, and everything in between. All that only if you've given a true account of Jewish faith.
There really is no problem reconciling the tragic Jewish history with a God like that.
I suspect another reason why Jews maintain their faith despite what they went through (holocaust, persecution, etc.) is it defines their identity as a people.
:lol: Suit yourself.
Are you aware of any myths where people put gods in the dock?
E.g. Genesis: 16-33 – Abraham interrogates God (via its angels) about whether or not it's just to punish the innocent along with the "wicked" in its imminent destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah.
• Book of Job
• Plato's Euthyphro
• Also, the Gnostics (re: "Demiurge").
What was God's reply? if I may ask. Collateral damage?
:ok:
All the answers provided by Job's neighbors are incorrect and in the end it does seem like Job is on the verge of cursing God, but then God comes down and berates him with a somewhat irrational argument and Job asserts continued devotion. After which, God pays him off by bringing good fortune again.
Now, this trial's outcome wouldn't stand up to any normal ethical scrutiny, but it essentially makes the case that the Jews are stuck with God even if it does them no good. Even when God is the cause of the suffering. Maybe because in the long run, God knows what's best better than the people do. So, when God does it, it's not evil even though it may appear to be evil to the people suffering it.
I've heard of Job's tragic story. I didn't know Job's tribulations were visited upon him & his family (?) on a dare by Lucifer.
[quote=Jesus]Do not put the Lord your God to the test.[/quote]
No spirit of reciprocity in this, our relationship, with YHWH. Perhaps that's the moral of the story: (Learn to) give without expecting anything in return. Has (human) sacrifice undertones! :scream: Religious practice is an oxymoron in my humble opinion - they're humanly impossible, have been and will probably remain so. Thus, I suspect, faiths are, at the end of the day, exhortations to transcend our nature and its limitations! Übermenschen (Nietzsche, God is not dead).
I don't know the pagan gods so you'll need to teach me on this.
how do the pagan gods view disability? how about the poor? do they get the big issues right? jewish god is surprisingly good on both these issues. not a common thing in 600 bce.
Human + (Supernatural) Power = Superhero/Supervillain
Remember Thor (Marvel Comics)!
As for an explanation for the stuff you listed: Divine wrath OR Divine favor and everything betwixt.
Not Lucifer. Satan. It's important to note that Satan was simply another of god's "children" or "angels" and not a direct opponent to God. He was acting more in the role of a prosecuting attorney against Job with God in the role of the Judge (and defender in a sense). Lucifer was not really a being - and is still not really a being - in Judaism, the way he seems to be in Christianity. Actually, Christ was referred to as Lucifer in some Latin translations of the Bible (it means "light bearer") and much of the Lucifer myth grew out of later gentile Christian thought combined with some apocryphal stories of the Nephilim and Gregori (fallen angels) in Jewish folklore (like the apocryphal Book of Enoch or the Book of Giants in the Dead Sea Scrolls).
Also, I believe the influence of Manicheanism and Zoroastrianism as well as the duality of Babylonian and Persian religions where many Jewish communities settled had a great influence on the idea of some kind of personalized embodiment of evil separate from the monotheistic God of the Hebrews. It's much easier to think that your God is solely good and there is some malevolent separate force responsible for the evil in the world.
However, that is obviously illogical if God is not only omniscient but omnipotent as well. An all-powerful and all-knowing God naturally is responsible for everything that happens in its creation, so there is no excuse to be found in a devil that it created and allows to run free. If there is a God, then he is responsible for the misfortune that you are praying to him to relieve.
Misfortune can be blamed on somebody?! Marcus du Sautoy writes in a book (title forgotten) that to many of our forebears, Chance = God.
I have no idea what the modern understanding of luck is but here's a little story from my life: I'm part of a team of transportation services. There's this driver who performs poorly (late to office and all that). We put him to task and his response was that all his lapses were due to, get this, bad luck; I think he meant to imply it wasn't his or anyone's fault that he was doing so poorly. Something to think about, eh?