Some interesting thoughts about Universes. The Real Universe and The Second Universe.
Many times I have listened to people refer to their own minds as being - "Like a small universe."
I like to think that way too as my own mind does feel like a small universe.
My Small Universe is smaller than the Big Bang Universe but it can do a few things that the other universe cannot do.
The second universe can perform deliberate movements and actions. The first universe cannot.
My second universe can watch over the real universe and can think about it and measure it and can learn other things about and then maybe write down those things and make money.
Such as scientists.
The second universe can make deliberate changes in the real Universe.
An example -- I noticed that there was a brick sitting in the sidewalk across the street and then I walked across the street and I picked up the brick.
Thus my own tiny Universe made deliberate changes in the Big Bang Universe .
Ken's law #20. All movements and all actions of any kind can exist, as such, only in the Real Universe. Including actions made by a second universe.
Ken's law #21. No negatives can exist in the Big Bang Universe.
My Second Universe can "THINK".
But thinking also is making movements. Thinking is the moving around and shifting about of small pieces of fat called brain cells. These movements produces patterns of small electrical currents.
Memories are the same thing: Patterns and arrangements of brain cells.
.
It is widely considered that fatty brain cells, work like transistors.
Words giving names to things that do not exist are quite common in the second universe but not at all in the first. Usually as adjectives.
Examples. - Unclear, Nonsense, Unhelpful, Unwise, , Inattentive, Inexperienced, Unwieldly, Unafraid, Nonstop, Unappreciative.
The words - "Prove that you exist" are silly words.
The dumb guy saying those words has already proved that you do exist by talking to you and giving you a name - You.
All I really want to say here about the Second Universes is the following:
"My second universe is smarter than your second universe".
Ken Edwards
I like to think that way too as my own mind does feel like a small universe.
My Small Universe is smaller than the Big Bang Universe but it can do a few things that the other universe cannot do.
The second universe can perform deliberate movements and actions. The first universe cannot.
My second universe can watch over the real universe and can think about it and measure it and can learn other things about and then maybe write down those things and make money.
Such as scientists.
The second universe can make deliberate changes in the real Universe.
An example -- I noticed that there was a brick sitting in the sidewalk across the street and then I walked across the street and I picked up the brick.
Thus my own tiny Universe made deliberate changes in the Big Bang Universe .
Ken's law #20. All movements and all actions of any kind can exist, as such, only in the Real Universe. Including actions made by a second universe.
Ken's law #21. No negatives can exist in the Big Bang Universe.
My Second Universe can "THINK".
But thinking also is making movements. Thinking is the moving around and shifting about of small pieces of fat called brain cells. These movements produces patterns of small electrical currents.
Memories are the same thing: Patterns and arrangements of brain cells.
.
It is widely considered that fatty brain cells, work like transistors.
Words giving names to things that do not exist are quite common in the second universe but not at all in the first. Usually as adjectives.
Examples. - Unclear, Nonsense, Unhelpful, Unwise, , Inattentive, Inexperienced, Unwieldly, Unafraid, Nonstop, Unappreciative.
The words - "Prove that you exist" are silly words.
The dumb guy saying those words has already proved that you do exist by talking to you and giving you a name - You.
All I really want to say here about the Second Universes is the following:
"My second universe is smarter than your second universe".
Ken Edwards
Comments (38)
You have 19 other laws? Interesting thoughts. I agree, more or less. The inner universe can simulate every process in the outer, physical world. We can mentally shape it and as bodies influence it physically. The body walks between these two worlds. The outer world is continuously projected into our inner world, which resonates and shapes it.
Here, I don't agree. A memory is an active reconstruction of an experience you had. Learning is creating the right substrate for memories to be reconstructed (by strengthening neuron connections).
I partly agree. I should have stated more carefully that the so called (By me) Second Universe is part and parcel of the so called (by me) Real Universe.)
I am an artist, a very good artist, well known for my stoneware. I am not a philosopher nor a scientest, *(although I have read much of both).
But I only read philosopy or science for pleasure and never for learning so I sometimes remember very little of what I read..)
I made no attempt (except perhaps intuitivally) to organize all this. I don't know how. I just wrote it
.
"The smarter than" comment I meant as a joke. A take off on the "my dad can lick your dad" children's line. I should have said, and almost did: "My Second Universe can lick your Second Universe."
My lines are literary and not technical and I feel very highly complimented by some of your lines. I am highly pleased. Thank you .
Ken
I am personally very aware, alas, of the difference between memory and recall because all my life I have suffered from having very poor recall although I have an excellent memory. I can remember things that occured ninety years ago very clearly. Some eighty years ago I remember that, in college algebra classes during examinations of quadratic equations I could never recall the formulas.
However since I had a firm grasp of the mathematics I just invented my own formulas. This amused my teacher and he alway gave me full credit as long as I got the right. answer.
But also I takemild issue with your other statement -- "Here I disagree."
Both of the mental actions that you describe are "Thinking" and all thinking consists of changing Patterns and Arrangements of brain cells.
If you have learned a math formula, like a quadratic equation, that's because you saw one or invented one in your inner world. Both the physical world and your thoughts about it leave memory trails in your brain. If you see a quadratic equation in front of your nose, examples of it, you get to learn the concept. You can recall them or remember them them because there is a kind of pattern that has been engraved on your neural structure, but that pattern only exists when it's active. When you remember it. The pattern is reconstructed when you think about it. It clicks, or falls, or strangely attracts, to the pattern once imprinted. One neuron is involved in zillions of patterns, so it's not the a memory like on a computer chip (with zeroes and ones patterned) but an implicit memory that gets clear when an already experienced pattern is experienced again. The recall is the clicking into an earlier engraved patter, and only when the pattern actually is reconstructed, can you speak of a memory. So if you are dead, I can't see, by looking in your brain, what memories there still are. That's only to know for a living brain. You brain implicitly contains more memories than it contains particles. A computerchip contains far less memory than it's constituting particles.
:lol:
What stones do you make? I do treetrunks, which I found out after painting and photographing, is really rewarding. Nature's, around the corner, in a forrest, is full of crazy natural forms. I take them, and live myself out on them. Lovely!
No, you should have said "My Second Universe can lick your Second Universe's arse".
Yes indeed!
Ken Edwards
Nice work!
Hillary. The word stoneware is an inside the trade word meaning "Ceramics Fired at a very high temperature resembling hard Porcelan. The main difference between porcelan and stoneware is that porcelan is always white and stoneware canbe any color. My stoneware, which I made in Mexico, (see google. Ken Edwards pottery.) was a light bluish gray. The stoneware I make in Guatemala is white with a dark brown foot.
I would love to see photos of some of your tree trunks. But I'm not sure how to do that.
OK Ken, I take that as a challenge. How would we decide the truth of this, by our capacity to effect change in the real universe? I would say that the smartest second universe is the one that can exist without having any effect on the real universe. Want to try?
How about this hypothetical:
Unknown to you, you prevented an event from happening purely due to your presence at a particular place at a particular time.
The details don't matter, what matters is you are completely unaware of how significant your simple presence was to subsequent events. You have no memory of this as there was no reason for your brain to memorialise.
If you had not been there, however, the subsequent events would have been very different. This was nothing to do with your deliberate conscious actions in relation to your concept of your mind as a 'second Universe,' it was merely due to your physical existence due to happenstance (or the actions of your parents...infinite regression of cause and effect) in the big bang Universe.
How would you relate this to your use of 'smartness?'
Btw: Nice stoneware!
"Angelo from Ken Edwards.
I very much appreciate that a person of you mental profundity should take me, an amateur, so seriously.
But I don't understand much of it and I would like to, at least partly, understand it.. Could you perhaps give me a simplified explanation? -- populerizng it, so to speak, In the manner Of Isaac Azomoth?
Thank you, Ken Edwards
Cannata;691348"]
You got the question wrong, Janus. The right question is __ Which is best? Lick or get licked?
J Yo
You say - "I would say that the smartest second universe is the one that can exist without having any effect on the real universe. Want to try?"
That would be a total impossibility. For the simple reason that the second universe would be part and parcel of the real universe.
If I should lift a finger that movement would be part of both universes.
Better we play poker or something.
The two can't be separated. Like La Madonella belongs in Forio, the interior universe belongs in the exterior universe and they shape and inform each other.
I have seen in your words an attempt to show how great our inner universe (which you call the second universe) is and I appreciate this very much, because I think that today most philosophers all over the world, professionals or not, give too little importance to this. But, at the same time, you still perceive the phisical universe as the real one and the big one. This makes me think that your mind is, like most philosophers, still slave of a perspective that gives too much deference to the “real” universe. Instead, the task of artists should be, in my opinion (and you are an artist), to show the world that what deserves to be considered “real” is our inner world. The phisical world, the external world, is just a crumb: its phisical vastness is nothing compared to the depth of our inner life. Actually, what gives depth to the phisical universe is our human perception. We see depth in the universe, because we have depth inside us. So, the real deep universe is the one inside us. Our inner universe is what makes everything real, worth consideration. Our inner universe makes possible the existence of the external universe.
When I die, the external universe ceases to exist, while instead all the emotions that I spreaded in life will keep their mark in the emotions of other people.
Seeing that, when other people die, the universe is still there should not make us conclude that the remaining universe is the phisical one. Instead, we should realize that, when somebody dies, the external universe has lost a big chance of being something to somebody, the external universe has become less meaningful, because now there are fewer people able to give meaning to the universe.
The universe is just an instrument to let our depth to show itself, otherwise it is nothing.
Then for what reason do you call it a second universe. If it's just a part of the real universe, without anything separating it from the real universe, then the designation of "second universe" is not justified. It's a part of the one.
I can more easily agree with the position you present. The issue I see is that there is a multitude of "universes", each being the presence of one person's own inner world. And since "multitude" implies a number of distinct individuals, there must be something which separates us all. This would be the external world. (I'll use "world" so that it's not confused with the "universes" which are internal). But this external world which separates us must be just as real as the internal universes, or else there'd be no separation between us, and no multitude of universes.
I call this external world the medium. I think it's better to use the singular "medium" rather than the plural "media", because it is essentially one, and this one thing separates all the individual minds which are many. The medium though, as matter, seems to consist of numerous different forms, and this is what gives the illusion that it is a multitude.
Would I rather lick an arse or have my arse licked? Neither sound at all appealing, unless it were a beautiful, clean young woman, but, otherwise, if I had to choose, I would definitely go with the latter.
I think your thoughts are metaphysic, which is, they try to work out how thing are. I want to work on how things are perceived by us. Nothing to do with phenomenology; it is, rather, an emotional, spiritual interest.
I agree with all that you say because I must.
Your inner world is omnipotent because it is all that you have but I am troubled, sometimes, with how far you take it and that your efforts to control it or improve it contain strong emotional elements.
Basically we have a very fundamental problem which is that our world, our inner world, is attempting to observe and think about and talk about ITSELF and even morally judge and change itself for the better.
But it has no tools to do such with. It has only itself with which to pursue that investigation.
Absurd!
Itself judges itself. The psychiatrist is trying to cure the psychiatrist and the patient is trying to cure the patient. We desperately need objectivity but can have no objectivity because objectivity comes from the outside and we have no outside.
Thus our inner worlds can believe and say or deny whatever nonsense that they like with no disapproval except from us in other, similar, inner worlds.
The world's scientists once had similar problems but, perhaps a hundred years ago, they solved those problems and today, science not philosophy rules the roost.
But we have one important advantage. We are bright. We are incredibly smart and our thinking can sometimes do the unthinkable.
For instance I am trying to look at what "objectify" is and to try to imitate it. I and others, have even partially succeeded. Witness the present words.
But I need help lots of help.
Sage comments, Hillary.
You seem to be "Comparing" the two worlds, one with another. Is that possible?
Soppose I say: " Let's compare a corkscrew with a pickup truck."
Then you would answer: " Impossible! There are no common grounds with which to compare."
So?
I want, as you suggest, to simulate something and apply that simulation to myself and, perhaps to you.
I want to simulate Logic and Reason, and Objectivity, verbal of course, and apply them to me and to thee.
At least you have understood this! It seems to me that a lot of philosophers and deep thinkers have not realized this at all.
Quoting Ken Edwards
I think it depends on us: if we consider that disapproval, disagreement, instead of being a threat is a resource, a stimulation for progress, further research, then we will look for it like a treasure. It is hard, obviously, our nature drives us to dominate, but we can try to do something. So, I think we have at our disposal several sources to appreciate disapproval: other people, experiences, books, reflection, and even ourselves. We just need to cultivate an attitude of listening and appreciation for disagreement.
Quoting Ken Edwards
I agree about this as well: it seems to me that today a lot of philosophers, instead of doing philosophy, they use their rationality in a way that is just an attempt to change philosophy into science. The reason is clear: such a way of doing philosophy gives us a perception of power and control.
Quoting Ken Edwards
I disagree about this. In my view objectivity is evil, because everyday and every moment it forces us to think according to certain necessary criterions: objectivity forces me to think that I cannot fly, I cannot go through a wall, I cannot do this and that, because otherwise I would just put at risk mine and others’ life. Since we cannot ignore objectivity, we cannot get rid of it, we can try to build some kind of good relationship with it. But wanting to imitate it seems excessive to me: why should I imitate evil? I prefer to use it as a possible instrument, a vehicle able to carry something good.
Quoting Ken Edwards
I agree: according to what I said about objectivity as evil, subjectivity and objectivity are enemies. But, as I said, since we are forced to live together with it, I think we can develop an extraordinary ability that we have as humans: you said
Quoting Ken Edwards
I think our great ability is to change, at least to some extent, evil into good, lack into resources. Aren’t artists those who transform a defect of a piece of marble, a bad shape of a piece of wood, into an inspiration for an amazing artwork? Aren’t great musicians those who transform noises and dissonances into new styles of music?
This means that the serious problem that you expressed, about which I agree
Quoting Ken Edwards
is to be faced not by trying to find, obstinately, some kind of strong objectivity, some undefeatable stable reality, but by using it as a real resource. The artist, in trying to depict a tree, is defeated by the perfection of photography. How does the artist answer to this defeat? He changes his problematic point into a resource: he renounces to the aim of painting a tree as similar as possible to the real tree, he abandons totally this purpose and rather he follows the opposite way; this way a total new universe is opened: he discovers that, rather than showing other people the draw of a tree, he can show other people his soul, his heart, just by painting the tree not as similar as possible to reality, but as connected as possible to his emotions, his heart.
I think we need to do the same in philosophy: rather than looking for objectivity, we should use the weakness, the contradictions and paradoxes of our thoughts as positive resources to open completely new universes of philosophy, that are just waiting for us to explore them.
I'm not sure, dear brother Ken, if you can simulate logic and reason. They are part of our constant inner simulation of the big great object world we walk through and look against. Walking through the forrest, it's continuously projected into my inner universe, continuously simulated and given shape, in form, color, sound, and smells, while I'm on the outlook for pretty dead tree chunks, prefabricated by nature in endless varieties of forms. The other day, while playing with the dog, I discovered a lovely piece. But a bit heavy. A fat thick tree bottom piece, shaped by life, death, rain, wind and time. We can potentially simulate the whole universe (I once did a calculation how many different patterns can run on the neural network: a 1 followed by 10exp20 zeroes! Compare with the number of particles in the observable universe, which is a 1 followed by a meager 91 zeroes...).
So instead of simulating logic and reason, use them in your walk, in your quest for shape, color, and beauty.
Creative greetings from a living walking body between the inner and outer universe.
Yours truly, Il guercio
Thanks!
Well, actually I have used logic and reason my whole life in everything I do because I was taught to. And I still do.
I also use Intuition very intensively much more so than most people do, being an artist.
You also seem to be comfortable with the use of intuition.
It is probable that the words "My innerUniverse" are only words and refer to nothing "real". In any case I don't really much care one way or the other.
And creative greetings to you, dear brother from a living body. But not so much a walking one. I am 97 and don't walk too good.
Much love, Ken Edwards
But that will soon change. We are going to read Kinsey and it's anybodies guess where that may lead to. Yummy!
A good strategy of life and for living the human experience sir. But not just because you were taught to but also because you accepted that teaching as offering a good strong foundation to build upon. Your use of intuition compliments your foundations in logic and reason.
Quoting Ken Edwards
Since I took early retirement, I oil paint as one of the hobbies I love.
I have read all of Carl Sagans books and enjoyed his description of the triune human brain and the various functions of the R-complex, the limbic system and the cortex. I like the me, myself and I aspects that I use to represent my triune brain. I have used this to stabilise their interrelationships and enforce common cause and union between me, myself and I.
I want to be part of the solutions and not part of the problems. A very difficult navigation on a case by case basis when full information is not available or is open to misinterpretation.
But my goal to get it right continues.
Quoting Ken Edwards
97! FANTASTIC SIR! I am 57. I read a new scientist article a few months ago which suggested that the first person to live between 125 and 170 is alive today. I vote for you to be one of those first ones to do so, as your sentiments above are sooooooo kind! :up: :clap: :flower:
Regardless of my longevity, my fate, or the contributions I have made or will make towards helping the world become a better place, you sound like a great person to be around.
Dear god... what is this forum turning into...?
Do you find yourself offended?
Not me. My arse!
:lol:
I don't know about mr. Hillary, but I'm certainly not!
Big buzz! :smile: