I guess the OP wants a humanistic answer. We can give it a try and define ourselves as well as we define conciousness: we cannot doubt of our existence while we doubt. Cogito, ergo sum: "I think, therefore I am"
But in this context we can be helped by the Johari window: Room one is the part of ourselves that we and others see. Room two contains aspects that others see but we are unaware of. Room three is the private space we know but hide from others. Room four is the unconscious part of us that neither ourselves nor others see. (Johari Window)
Reply to TiredThinker "we"meaning the concept of the self.....are the emergent "product" of our brain functions. We can go further and state that our brain functions are affected by our biological setup and environmental influences.
What makes the real us is Previous experiences and the Situations and conditions of our current experiences.
Guessing has to be a bit wild in this context, as the OP gives us not many clues, but you may be right. I will start with "We are the people who, when our rent is owed, owe it." I'm thinking of an example where the landlord asks for the rent and we respond with the statement "But you have not defined who 'I' am and who 'you' really are. Without that, there is no owing or being owed." The landlord (being a philosopher) will reply that we already know who we both are because we are both engaged in a way of life in which some people owe rent and others have it owed to them. Of course there's more to life and death than rent. When a relative dies and it's my job to organise the funeral I do not need to work out first whether or not it is possible for me to organise something for a person who does not exist and perhaps who never was the body that is lying in the funeral parlour. When I identify the body I would not look blankly at my deceased relative and say that I can have no idea whether it is the person whom I knew because I never had any idea what they were anyway or whether their physical body was them or not. These are the contexts in which it is clear that the question "Who are we?" makes no sense. My question is: are there any contexts (outside of a philosophy seminar) where it does make sense?
Are we our personality? Are we a soul? Are we our brain? What makes the real us?
We all are our bodies, with magical worlds inside, walking around in a world like the gods in heaven walk and crawl around. The paradise gardens, once resembling heavenly paradise, are terribly fucked up though. Let's hope paradise returns. Seems the human gods (just one species of gods amongst many) did a sneaky thing in the preparations for creation...
I gave it a try in a humanistic point of view because the OP (I suppose :lol: ) is referring to soul, personality, realism, etc… and all of these topics are already debated by empiricists and rationalists.
But I want to aggregate a brief to your example because I really enjoyed it when I have read it.
“Landlord” and “occupant” are terms that are already defined by a law (unless you are from an Anglo-Saxon law country) so the parts shall not have doubts in the agreement. This is called in my country as arrendamiento. The landlord has the right of being paid every first week of each month and the occupant has to pay him. If he doesn’t do so, the landlord has the will of kick him out of the land/flat through a trial process.
What I wanted to share here is that sometimes is necessary to be specific in terms of “who we are or who are they”. If there is a doubt do not worry we shall go to a civil court :lol:
I guess the last thing left after everything else is stripped away that can longer be divided and contains the sum of everything that matters to us as part of how we tend to define ourselves as unique from others.
Are we our personality? Are we a soul? Are we our brain? What makes the real us?
I find questions like these to be unhelpful to my experience. We are our behavior and choices. Putting the word 'real' in front of other words is rarely useful.
I think there are many ways to answer this question, but one answer that I was reading and thinking about some weeks ago is that we are the sum of our past history, i.e., we are now the sum of all the moments that we lived since our birth, and this is what make us unique since each one has his or her own past. So, in this theory, even if you change your ideas, body, mind, you still are yourself because of your whole past.
Aren't our behaviors and choices somewhat guided by nature, culture, and how we perceive the world has treated us? Under different circumstances wouldn't the same "self" have made different choices?
Reply to TiredThinker So? We all know this already but it makes no practical difference. We make choices and do things. What's that Woody Allen joke - "If I had been born in Poland, or Berlin, I'd be a lampshade today." Still not sure how it relates to the word 'real'.
Reply to TiredThinker "Who are we?" Wrong question, I think. Instead: what are we?We are ecology-situated, embodied-enactive, brain-systems coordinating their bodily activities (i.e. habits) in groups by telling themselves – continuously confabulating – mostly commensurate and often commiserating stories about having / being (transcendent, immaterial) "souls" "minds" "selves" "identities" "persons" ... that are each individually – subjectively – a brain blind to itself being a brain.
continuously confabulating – mostly commensurate and often commiserating stories about having / being (transcendent, immaterial) "souls" "minds" "selves" "identities" "persons" ... that are each individually – subjectively – a brain blind to itself being a brain.
It's like an endlessly spinning wheel sometimes. It may not be good philosophy but I sometimes think less is more. Like my mum used to say: Just shut up and get on with it!
Are we our personality? Are we a soul? Are we our brain? What makes the real us?
I hold to the identity of indiscernables and indiscernability of the identical.
IOW, iff A and B have identical properties, then A is identical to B.
I am something with a specific set of properties. I am not identical to the guy waking up in my bed tomorrow (he will have experienced some TV shows, and a night of sleep that I haven't experienced, among other differences), but we're closely related. My "identity" consists of a temporal causal chain that connects all these guys. My view is called perdurantism. IMO, it's the least-worst account of personal identity.
What if it's the case 'you are not even "you"'? (e.g. PSM)
I'm not me, given the elapse of time between entering "I" and "me".
I know this sounds silly, so I'm having fun with it, but consider the alternative: what are the necessary and sufficient properties for being YOU?
Imagine going back in time and encountering your 10-year old "self". Will you be confused as to which of you is the guy who traveled back in time? There are clear differences between the two (e.g. different biological ages, different heights, you have experience and memories the 10-year old lacks, differences in interests and education... ).
If someone had stolen his Treatise manuscript and published it as their own he would have suddenly remembered who Hume was and he would not have forgotten in a hurry or allowed anyone else to claim that his personal identity is an illusion. Also, he knew this. He was not happy with his own theory.
Are we our personality? Are we a soul? Are we our brain? What makes the real us?
In the broadest sense but also a bit of a useless definition: we are that aspect of existence which has an awareness of its existence. We are the part of the universe perceiving itself.
If someone had stolen his Treatise manuscript and published it as their own he would have suddenly remembered who Hume was and he would not have forgotten in a hurry or allowed anyone else to claim that his personal identity is an illusion. Also, he knew this. He was not happy with his own theory.
A four year old and forty year old may be same person, but what is that property?
A four year old and forty year old may be same person, but what is that property?
What I'm suggesting in this thread is that we first consider the circumstances in which we ask this question - "When do we ask about a four year old and a forty year old - 'Are these the same person?'" For example, we might see two photos and ask whether they are of the same person. Then let's think about how we go about answering that everyday question. That will tell us what makes them the same person - or makes them different people. For example: "No, I was mistaken - that must be my brother, not me, because I was dark haired and he's blonde."
Having done that we can go back to your question "....what is that property?" .
The answer is that there may be no property and there may be no need to assume that there is or is not any property. We have just succeeded in identifying the two people (or distinguishing them, if they are different) and we have not attributed any particular property in order to do it. We have not mentioned continuity of consciousness or got stuck on the replacement of cells. DNA has not figured in the exercise.
Hair colour did come into the example. Do I therefore propose a theory that personal identity is a function of hair colour? No, that would be absurd as a general theory. And yet it would be perfectly sensible in particular circumstances. What I'm suggesting is that we first look at how we identify and distinguish persons. Otherwise we may be tempted to hunt for some essential property of personhood without first thinking whether such a hunt even makes sense.
Reply to Cuthbert From your examples, eg tenant/landlord, perhaps a better question would be: Who are we to one another, in this or that context? Or along the same line, another question, perhaps closer to the OP, is: Who are we to ourselves? Of course the short answer is: we are ourselves, ie identity. But sometimes it can be said that we are not exactly ourselves: when we dream ourselves, or we (re)invent ourselves. When we do something that surprises even ourselves.
If we are 4 dimensional and contain the entire snake of frames from conception to death, what keeps that snake from spanning the entirety of time? Events conspire to bring all of us here. Everything is the consequence of what came before? Are we apart of the star dust that ultimately became our material as well?
Reply to TiredThinker I honestly don't think there's a single correct answer. One can only draw boundaries and apply them consistently, but you may draw the boundaries differently than I.
Personally, I draw the boundaries as beginning when the rudimentary mind emerges during gestation, and terminating when that mind ceases to exist at death. Of course, both boundaries are fuzzy (there is not some instant of time at which a mind begins to exist), but that's true of many things (at what precise length must whiskers be, to be a beard?)
Some believe in haeccity, the theory that identity is something irreducible, but just IS. Your haeccity could inhabit your body, Taylor Swift's body, a cockroach body, or no body at all. I reject it, but it's a means to "solve" the problem of identity.
I can't answer your question because words are assigned symbols with a certain value and that means there is a level of complexity to those words and those words are not the thing itself
they're simply symbols we use to convey and understanding to somebody else without them having to experience the thing themselves
in other words language is a convenience tool to give a taste of what we've experienced to somebody else and what I am is not a convenience tool
nor a tool at all, it's (I) much more complex, it's (Me) the thing that uses the tools, but even that's not a true definition of what I am,
because sometimes I don't use tools so no matter how much I elaborate I'm only going to give you the actual complete me in a way that you can fundamentally "know"
I can only give you symbols of what I do, the actions I make , the show I decide to put on, or the way I try to hide.
But but just like you don't consider the DVD you bought at the store to be the actual actors themselves likewise in explanation I give you will never be the complexity of the being conveying it to you
The short version of that is I can't be conceptualized lol
As per Yuval Noah Harari, we're, get this, the most prolific serial killer in evolutionary history (assassins, we all are, agents of extinction). Is mother nature committing suicide? Is she the proverbial Phoenix - resurrects from its ashes?
We are the part of the universe perceiving itself.
— Benj96
We are that part of the universe perceiving ourselves as part of the universe.
We are parts of the universe hallucinating that we are parts of the universe perceiving the universe and ourselves, which is pretty much the same for all forms of life. Is life the universe becoming self aware? No. The universe is no Hydra-headed beast or a worm you can never delete.
I didn’t say life is the “whole” universe becoming self aware but life exists in the universe and is composed of it - hallucinations are still processes of consciousness. Life doesn’t exist separately to everything else it’s a fraction of it. Life is the piece of the whole pie that can taste the flavour.
We are that part of the universe perceiving ourselves as part of the universe.
I don’t see what this clarification offers additionally tbh. By this do you mean you believe conscious awareness as a phenomenon to be somehow outside of the rest of universe? You can’t directly observe atoms but they still exist nor gravitational waves but they exist and you can’t directly observe “consciousness” but it exists - because in all cases they can be indirectly measured by their interactions and properties. All of them are properties that the universe permits to occur.
Well we can see atoms or at least the protons and we can measure gravity waves with special equipment, but we haven't yet measured or even defined our consciousness. Maybe just learned self preservation behaviors given precedent over behaviors that are risky. Beyond that I don't know its purpose.
Reply to Benj96 I simply reject the hackneyed, 'romantic' anthropomorphizing of the universe. Also, your synedoche "we as part of the universe perceiving itself" assumes a compositional fallacy.
Perhaps agency and awareness of self had the edge on aimless unconscious meandering in natural selection? Maybe it’s better to navigate by an ego then be at the whim of mechanical processes with no choice involved.
Well we can see atoms or at least the protons and we can measure gravity waves with special equipment, but we haven't yet measured or even defined our consciousness. Maybe just learned self preservation behaviors given precedent over behaviors that are risky. Beyond that I don't know its purpose.
The nature of matter is unknown. That's the secret to consciousness. The purpose, reason, or meaning of all life is a divine one.
neonspectraltoastMay 09, 2022 at 21:20#6929730 likes
We are the experiencer enigmas that experiences the being eclipses. What the experiencer is, I don't know, perhaps it's something to do with super symmetry; in my opinion everything is symmetrical but super symmetric phenomena occured, creating an illusion of asymmetry. For every illuminated phenomenon is shadow- for every shadow, a concave, and a mirror. In part a human is many, and this many, together, is super symmetric.
Helper:
If you view things plainly it seems as if it's not all symmetrical but if you consider each part its own center, you can imagine it.
What the experiencer is, I don't know, perhaps it's something to do with super symmetry; in my opinion everything is symmetrical but super symmetric phenomena occured, creating an illusion of asymmetry
Supersymmetry refers to bosons and fermions, and as such has no real world impact. Fermions and bosons can be turned into one another mathematically, but the transformation in reality can't. All matter is fermionic, all interaction fields bosonic. How do supersymmetric phenomena create an illusion of asymmetry?
For every illuminated phenomenon is shadow- for every shadow, a concave, and a mirror. In part a human is many, and this many, together, is super symmetric
Because we can go against baser instincts. We can refrain from primal urges and in the extreme case we can completely go against the mechanism of natural selection by ending our own lives if we want. I find it difficult to find an reason why natural selection would bring about the capacity to have full autonomy over whether we continue to exist
Reply to Benj96 "You can’t directly observe atoms but they still exist nor gravitational waves but they exist and you can’t directly observe “consciousness” but it exists - because in all cases they can be indirectly measured by their interactions and properties. All of them are properties that the universe permits to occur"
The thing is though, there is always more than one possibility for why something is the way it is and science tends to forget this once it finds a model it likes
so although we can observe things interacting with each other that doesn't mean there's only one conclusion and that conclusion just so happens to be Atomism exists
it just simply means that we decided to use the interpretation an explanation of atomism as the general consensus for why things are interacting the way they are. Remember science is about interpretation not unfiltered demonstrable truth.
Are we our personality? Are we a soul? Are we our brain? What makes the real us?
A web of neurological maps formed by genetics and experience.
The problem with our perception of ourselves is that we are like a mirror trying to reflect ourselves in another mirror. This feedback loop of thought makes us perceive the very act of thinking about our entity to be so mysterious that we believe it to be more magical than it really is.
We are a complex biological machine that is more advanced than we can perceive and not yet completely understood in science so our perceptions have no comfort in thought.
This is why we invent religion or mystical ideas about existence instead of embracing more rational and logical conclusions based on the science we know so far.
Razorback kittenMay 11, 2022 at 20:42#6939810 likes
You're a complicated collection of atoms mate. But the word is human.
The issue of advance directives does give a practical application to questions of identity. Would my future demented self appreciate my current self making decisions about my future demented self's welfare? By making an advance directives, am I helping myself or oppressing another?
This is why we invent religion or mystical ideas about existence instead of embracing more rational and logical conclusions based on the science we know so far.
BS, if you don't mind me saying. The "more rational and logical conclusions based on science" offer no solace, as gods are not invented but exist to resist exactly the scientific explanations. Science can't answer the reason for existence. Only gods supply us with pure ratio and reasin, and scientific explanations, useful as the are in the material domain, are the most irrational means for answering the question of the meaning of life.
[i]For the Master, I am a Servant,
For the Teacher, I am a Student.[/i]
Frankly, the I, you, or we are closely associated with the process of becoming in the domains of existence. The mind and body would evolve depending on the conditional phenomena; just as ice, water, and steam appear ephemeral in relation to the orientation of H2O properties. Eventually, the phenomenon exists as this or that depends on the observers. It’s like describing the same elephant by different blind people, namely a blind person can tell that an elephant looks like a tree trunk; another blind man would describe an elephant as a snake.
Hence, a simple and straightforward answer would be: “I am what I am”. The applicable principle: “If you think this is who I am, then I am”, and “If you know this is what I am, then I am”. At the end of the day, the phenomena that happen are very much linked to the consciousness that perceives them. This is what the conventional reality is all about, i.e. the final conclusion is subjective-cum-relative and varies from one observer to another. Likewise, in respective circumstances, you can be named as a son, a father, a preacher, a student, a Caucasian, an American, a skinny man, an old man, a stranger, and so on. Just like a proverb, “One man’s meat is another man’s poison”.
BS, if you don't mind me saying. The "more rational and logical conclusions based on science" offer no solace, as gods are not invented but exist to resist exactly the scientific explanations. Science can't answer the reason for existence. Only gods supply us with pure ratio and reasin, and scientific explanations, useful as the are in the material domain, are the most irrational means for answering the question of the meaning of life.
What is "BS" is how you presume that belief or gods are required for feeling solace. If all you ever knew were those answers, then it becomes almost impossible for you to see past them. "Meaning of life" is a pointless idea if that idea points to a meaning or purpose existing before your life come into existence because there's no point to our life, we're the outcome of a billions year old (maybe more) probability game and the complexity we feel is a result of that, which deludes people into believing there's some meaning to it because they arrogantly think their human intelligence is of divine influence. You don't have any meaning or purpose and that becomes the point when dismantling the illusions of belief and religion because it enables people to seek meaning and purpose in their life instead of settling in for some meaning already there. It's an apathy out of religion, tailored to be very easy for people in power to take advantage of since if meaning and purpose is already there "by God", then people stop introspection and self-reflection, people stop examining their lived life since there's no point in some "grand plan".
Religion is the sugar-coated diabetes-inducing candy with unhealthy substances not written out on the package. Viewing the universe as it is, to the best of knowledge that exists is the healthy meal.
I feel wonder and excitement and meaning and purpose in accepting the world, nature, and universe for what it is. I feel awe in the wake of things like the James Webb telescope looking deep into the hidden truths of the universe.
All those things that you think are missing in a life without religion or belief, do indeed exist there. But a religious person, a person of belief cannot understand or see any of that because they are blinded by the arrogance of their belief. That's why they say "bullshit" to such explanations because anything other than God, belief, and religion is beneath them. Unfortunately, history and historians of religion has enough examples and explanations of how religion gets "invented", the psychology behind it and most importantly... how destructive it can be. Just because you can't or don't know anyone who has found solace and peace without God, religion, and belief doesn't mean that it is impossible. Only if you strawman it by saying stuff like "research doesn't give meaning" disregarding every further notion of expansion of this concept can you make it true for yourself. But thinking that there aren't people in the world feeling just as fulfilled by life without the fantasies cooked up by people throughout history to explain the unexplainable, is just arrogant and proves my point that very few really understand any of this, even among those calling themselves athetists.
Well, that's exactly the question. Dawkins, quite ignorantly, says the purpose of life is to pass on genes or memes, which is just a dogmatic belief.
Now it's true that life has evolved in a long process starting at the big bang, but who says all universal life would not have evolved into the same beings if the initial state were different?
That's why they say "bullshit" to such explanations because anything other than God, belief, and religion is beneath them.
But science and religion can go hand in hand. Science lacks the explanation of where the basic ingredients of the universe come from, and gods can offer a reason for why it appeared. It's a totally different reason than the scientific take. Gods are not needed to fill gaps (science can work it out to the fundaments), but to give reason for a gapless state of matter in the first place.
So, the mindless reason that science gives for existence (reducing it to coincidental combinations of lifeless particles) is replaced by a reasonable creation act with a purpose, endowing existence with a wonder science has taken away.
Well, that's exactly the question. Dawkins, quite ignorantly, says the purpose of life is to pass on genes or memes, which is just a dogmatic belief.
I'm not Dawkins and I'm saying there's no purpose in that either. It's part of the web of life that evolved by probability. There's no more purpose to passing on our genes than for a fungus to spread interconnected nerves through a forest. We attribute divine meaning to something meaningless because we can't stand the notion that there's no meaning at all. Instead of giving it a sense of meaning rationally connected to its existence as it is. Dawkins might just say those things about purpose to make an argument for the believers, because believers can't grasp the concept of no given purpose or meaning.
Now it's true that life has evolved in a long process starting at the big bang, but who says all universal life would not have evolved into the same beings if the initial state were different?
The problem with theistic philosophy is that when breaking down the concepts, the theists end up with a vague notion that something kickstarted everything and any kind of actual divine meaning and purpose becomes just as meaningless as if there was no divine entity at all. And changing the initial state is no different than some random fluke letting the Nazis win the war instead of the allied nations. Today would look different if the universe had another start, but not so different that it would flip the concept of meaning and purpose in favor of some divinity. It's also quite irrelevant to any meaning or purpose for individuals. The problem with theism is that every philosophical discussion around God, belief, and religion ends up in a first cause argument totally dislocated from the actual initial argument of the discussion. Theism has become a warm blanket of pseudo-intellectualism as the last stance against rationality. The last line of defense for the religious to feel there's hope for their personal conviction to survive.
I'm saying, just let go, embrace things for what they are, and find meaning and purpose untouched by the corruption of thought that is an irrational belief.
But science and religion can go hand in hand. Science lacks the explanation of where the basic ingredients of the universe come from, and gods can offer a reason for why it appeared. It's a totally different reason than the scientific take. Gods are not needed to fill gaps (science can work it out to the fundaments), but to give reason for a gapless state of matter in the first place.
Things like this have been said since the renaissance started to seriously separate church and knowledge for our modern world. For every discovery and scientific breakthrough, the theistic goal posts gets shifted further and further away into places of obscurity. But research has always pushed this back. We're constantly moving closer to things like a unified theory, we are constantly knowing more and more about the universe. What happens when science explains all of what you said? Would you move the goalposts further, like theists and religious people have done so many times in the last 500 years? It all becomes a parody of theism, the person pointing to the mystery and as the mystery gets explained they point somewhere else and says it's a mystery. It's close to what doomsday cults are doing, placing a date for the end of the world, and then it doesn't happen they just brush it off and choose a new date for it. It's fundamentally irrational.
And we still know so much today that the notion of something divine being there, just beyond the reach of understanding becomes a concept so vague that the idea of something divine becomes irrelevant.
I hope you are familiar with the parable of the invisible gardener?
So, the mindless reason that science gives for existence (reducing it to coincidental combinations of lifeless particles) is replaced by a reasonable creation act with a purpose, endowing existence with a wonder science has taken away.
So? It's still just fantasy created to soothe those who can't accept that there's no divine meaning or purpose. It's circular reasoning where you have to accept the conclusion before making the argument. It's philosophical garbage, which is what theism really is. Theism feels like a philosophical playground where the rules of conduct don't apply and theists don't have to reach the same level of scrutiny as the rest of the philosophical community. So they create this bubble in which they can discuss philosophy under the comfort blanket of an already decided truth about the universe; the decision that the divine exists and we shouldn't question that but can question everything else. It's just as irrational as religion itself and theists are unable to discuss it with proper philosophers because they get stuck in those decided truths and can only boil down to conclusions like "I think what you say is bullshit".
Children in a playground, playing with the invisible gardener. While the adults know it's just playful fantasy for the comfort of their minds.
You are a virtual avatar and a DNA coded, individual character, experiencing a virtual reality inside an imaginary ancestral simulator. You are a holographic illusion that is being imagined and projected into this reality by God. This includes your reality, your finger prints, your DNA and every particle arrangement, that creates you. You exist in another dimension, inside a neural network system in Gods mind. You are being created in this dimension through a projection of light and information from sub atomic particles and electrons and you are percieving the universe with the lesser mind of God and with God as a constant observer.
You have possibly been living in this time only, for many trillions of years, if not infinitely. Its unlikely that you have evolved from a single cell or have lived throughout history, because evolution is a trick and the trick is, that we have evolved into a fully human being through natural selection and through survival of the fittess, when we are in fact, ( Scientifically and mathematically) "Supernatural". Evolution did happen, but it happened inside firing neurons and brain waves of probabilities, deep inside Gods universe brain.
Comments (60)
I guess the OP wants a humanistic answer. We can give it a try and define ourselves as well as we define conciousness: we cannot doubt of our existence while we doubt. Cogito, ergo sum: "I think, therefore I am"
But in this context we can be helped by the Johari window: Room one is the part of ourselves that we and others see. Room two contains aspects that others see but we are unaware of. Room three is the private space we know but hide from others. Room four is the unconscious part of us that neither ourselves nor others see. (Johari Window)
What makes the real us is Previous experiences and the Situations and conditions of our current experiences.
Guessing has to be a bit wild in this context, as the OP gives us not many clues, but you may be right. I will start with "We are the people who, when our rent is owed, owe it." I'm thinking of an example where the landlord asks for the rent and we respond with the statement "But you have not defined who 'I' am and who 'you' really are. Without that, there is no owing or being owed." The landlord (being a philosopher) will reply that we already know who we both are because we are both engaged in a way of life in which some people owe rent and others have it owed to them. Of course there's more to life and death than rent. When a relative dies and it's my job to organise the funeral I do not need to work out first whether or not it is possible for me to organise something for a person who does not exist and perhaps who never was the body that is lying in the funeral parlour. When I identify the body I would not look blankly at my deceased relative and say that I can have no idea whether it is the person whom I knew because I never had any idea what they were anyway or whether their physical body was them or not. These are the contexts in which it is clear that the question "Who are we?" makes no sense. My question is: are there any contexts (outside of a philosophy seminar) where it does make sense?
We all are our bodies, with magical worlds inside, walking around in a world like the gods in heaven walk and crawl around. The paradise gardens, once resembling heavenly paradise, are terribly fucked up though. Let's hope paradise returns. Seems the human gods (just one species of gods amongst many) did a sneaky thing in the preparations for creation...
Good answer :100:
I gave it a try in a humanistic point of view because the OP (I suppose :lol: ) is referring to soul, personality, realism, etc… and all of these topics are already debated by empiricists and rationalists.
But I want to aggregate a brief to your example because I really enjoyed it when I have read it.
“Landlord” and “occupant” are terms that are already defined by a law (unless you are from an Anglo-Saxon law country) so the parts shall not have doubts in the agreement. This is called in my country as arrendamiento. The landlord has the right of being paid every first week of each month and the occupant has to pay him. If he doesn’t do so, the landlord has the will of kick him out of the land/flat through a trial process.
What I wanted to share here is that sometimes is necessary to be specific in terms of “who we are or who are they”. If there is a doubt do not worry we shall go to a civil court :lol:
I find questions like these to be unhelpful to my experience. We are our behavior and choices. Putting the word 'real' in front of other words is rarely useful.
The most common question that gets asked in re identity is
1. Who am I? (As an individual)
The OP wants to know (?)
2. Who are WE? (As a group/tribe)
Drifting into superorganism, hive mind, sociology, human nature, egrogere, etc. territory here.
I think there are many ways to answer this question, but one answer that I was reading and thinking about some weeks ago is that we are the sum of our past history, i.e., we are now the sum of all the moments that we lived since our birth, and this is what make us unique since each one has his or her own past. So, in this theory, even if you change your ideas, body, mind, you still are yourself because of your whole past.
Aren't our behaviors and choices somewhat guided by nature, culture, and how we perceive the world has treated us? Under different circumstances wouldn't the same "self" have made different choices?
It's like an endlessly spinning wheel sometimes. It may not be good philosophy but I sometimes think less is more. Like my mum used to say: Just shut up and get on with it!
I hold to the identity of indiscernables and indiscernability of the identical.
IOW, iff A and B have identical properties, then A is identical to B.
I am something with a specific set of properties. I am not identical to the guy waking up in my bed tomorrow (he will have experienced some TV shows, and a night of sleep that I haven't experienced, among other differences), but we're closely related. My "identity" consists of a temporal causal chain that connects all these guys. My view is called perdurantism. IMO, it's the least-worst account of personal identity.
What if it's the case 'you are not even "you"'? (e.g. PSM)
Thanks. Had to look that up.
I'm not me, given the elapse of time between entering "I" and "me".
I know this sounds silly, so I'm having fun with it, but consider the alternative: what are the necessary and sufficient properties for being YOU?
Imagine going back in time and encountering your 10-year old "self". Will you be confused as to which of you is the guy who traveled back in time? There are clear differences between the two (e.g. different biological ages, different heights, you have experience and memories the 10-year old lacks, differences in interests and education... ).
Individual identity is a fuzzy concept.
Hume made the argument against identity. I think he was right.
If someone had stolen his Treatise manuscript and published it as their own he would have suddenly remembered who Hume was and he would not have forgotten in a hurry or allowed anyone else to claim that his personal identity is an illusion. Also, he knew this. He was not happy with his own theory.
In the broadest sense but also a bit of a useless definition: we are that aspect of existence which has an awareness of its existence. We are the part of the universe perceiving itself.
A four year old and forty year old may be same person, but what is that property?
What I'm suggesting in this thread is that we first consider the circumstances in which we ask this question - "When do we ask about a four year old and a forty year old - 'Are these the same person?'" For example, we might see two photos and ask whether they are of the same person. Then let's think about how we go about answering that everyday question. That will tell us what makes them the same person - or makes them different people. For example: "No, I was mistaken - that must be my brother, not me, because I was dark haired and he's blonde."
Having done that we can go back to your question "....what is that property?" .
The answer is that there may be no property and there may be no need to assume that there is or is not any property. We have just succeeded in identifying the two people (or distinguishing them, if they are different) and we have not attributed any particular property in order to do it. We have not mentioned continuity of consciousness or got stuck on the replacement of cells. DNA has not figured in the exercise.
Hair colour did come into the example. Do I therefore propose a theory that personal identity is a function of hair colour? No, that would be absurd as a general theory. And yet it would be perfectly sensible in particular circumstances. What I'm suggesting is that we first look at how we identify and distinguish persons. Otherwise we may be tempted to hunt for some essential property of personhood without first thinking whether such a hunt even makes sense.
If we are 4 dimensional and contain the entire snake of frames from conception to death, what keeps that snake from spanning the entirety of time? Events conspire to bring all of us here. Everything is the consequence of what came before? Are we apart of the star dust that ultimately became our material as well?
Personally, I draw the boundaries as beginning when the rudimentary mind emerges during gestation, and terminating when that mind ceases to exist at death. Of course, both boundaries are fuzzy (there is not some instant of time at which a mind begins to exist), but that's true of many things (at what precise length must whiskers be, to be a beard?)
Some believe in haeccity, the theory that identity is something irreducible, but just IS. Your haeccity could inhabit your body, Taylor Swift's body, a cockroach body, or no body at all. I reject it, but it's a means to "solve" the problem of identity.
they're simply symbols we use to convey and understanding to somebody else without them having to experience the thing themselves
in other words language is a convenience tool to give a taste of what we've experienced to somebody else and what I am is not a convenience tool
nor a tool at all, it's (I) much more complex, it's (Me) the thing that uses the tools, but even that's not a true definition of what I am,
because sometimes I don't use tools so no matter how much I elaborate I'm only going to give you the actual complete me in a way that you can fundamentally "know"
I can only give you symbols of what I do, the actions I make , the show I decide to put on, or the way I try to hide.
But but just like you don't consider the DVD you bought at the store to be the actual actors themselves likewise in explanation I give you will never be the complexity of the being conveying it to you
The short version of that is I can't be conceptualized lol
:up:
:up:
We are that part of the universe perceiving ourselves as part of the universe.
We are parts of the universe hallucinating that we are parts of the universe perceiving the universe and ourselves, which is pretty much the same for all forms of life. Is life the universe becoming self aware? No. The universe is no Hydra-headed beast or a worm you can never delete.
We are basically collections of particles that inflated away from the virtuality long time ago, on a tubular singularity, far, far away.
I didn’t say life is the “whole” universe becoming self aware but life exists in the universe and is composed of it - hallucinations are still processes of consciousness. Life doesn’t exist separately to everything else it’s a fraction of it. Life is the piece of the whole pie that can taste the flavour.
I don’t see what this clarification offers additionally tbh. By this do you mean you believe conscious awareness as a phenomenon to be somehow outside of the rest of universe? You can’t directly observe atoms but they still exist nor gravitational waves but they exist and you can’t directly observe “consciousness” but it exists - because in all cases they can be indirectly measured by their interactions and properties. All of them are properties that the universe permits to occur.
Well we can see atoms or at least the protons and we can measure gravity waves with special equipment, but we haven't yet measured or even defined our consciousness. Maybe just learned self preservation behaviors given precedent over behaviors that are risky. Beyond that I don't know its purpose.
Perhaps agency and awareness of self had the edge on aimless unconscious meandering in natural selection? Maybe it’s better to navigate by an ego then be at the whim of mechanical processes with no choice involved.
The nature of matter is unknown. That's the secret to consciousness. The purpose, reason, or meaning of all life is a divine one.
Helper:
If you view things plainly it seems as if it's not all symmetrical but if you consider each part its own center, you can imagine it.
Supersymmetry refers to bosons and fermions, and as such has no real world impact. Fermions and bosons can be turned into one another mathematically, but the transformation in reality can't. All matter is fermionic, all interaction fields bosonic. How do supersymmetric phenomena create an illusion of asymmetry?
Quoting Varde
The Platonic shadows?
Quoting Varde
:chin:
Quoting Varde
Good point!
How do we know "choice" as it seems to be isn't just animal mechanisms? Pure instinct pretending to be more?
Because we can go against baser instincts. We can refrain from primal urges and in the extreme case we can completely go against the mechanism of natural selection by ending our own lives if we want. I find it difficult to find an reason why natural selection would bring about the capacity to have full autonomy over whether we continue to exist
The thing is though, there is always more than one possibility for why something is the way it is and science tends to forget this once it finds a model it likes
so although we can observe things interacting with each other that doesn't mean there's only one conclusion and that conclusion just so happens to be Atomism exists
it just simply means that we decided to use the interpretation an explanation of atomism as the general consensus for why things are interacting the way they are. Remember science is about interpretation not unfiltered demonstrable truth.
A web of neurological maps formed by genetics and experience.
The problem with our perception of ourselves is that we are like a mirror trying to reflect ourselves in another mirror. This feedback loop of thought makes us perceive the very act of thinking about our entity to be so mysterious that we believe it to be more magical than it really is.
We are a complex biological machine that is more advanced than we can perceive and not yet completely understood in science so our perceptions have no comfort in thought.
This is why we invent religion or mystical ideas about existence instead of embracing more rational and logical conclusions based on the science we know so far.
BS, if you don't mind me saying. The "more rational and logical conclusions based on science" offer no solace, as gods are not invented but exist to resist exactly the scientific explanations. Science can't answer the reason for existence. Only gods supply us with pure ratio and reasin, and scientific explanations, useful as the are in the material domain, are the most irrational means for answering the question of the meaning of life.
Both most of the times.
1. By degree, rational animals (h. sapiens)
2. By type, suiciders (h. suicidus)
For the Teacher, I am a Student.[/i]
Frankly, the I, you, or we are closely associated with the process of becoming in the domains of existence. The mind and body would evolve depending on the conditional phenomena; just as ice, water, and steam appear ephemeral in relation to the orientation of H2O properties. Eventually, the phenomenon exists as this or that depends on the observers. It’s like describing the same elephant by different blind people, namely a blind person can tell that an elephant looks like a tree trunk; another blind man would describe an elephant as a snake.
Hence, a simple and straightforward answer would be: “I am what I am”. The applicable principle: “If you think this is who I am, then I am”, and “If you know this is what I am, then I am”. At the end of the day, the phenomena that happen are very much linked to the consciousness that perceives them. This is what the conventional reality is all about, i.e. the final conclusion is subjective-cum-relative and varies from one observer to another. Likewise, in respective circumstances, you can be named as a son, a father, a preacher, a student, a Caucasian, an American, a skinny man, an old man, a stranger, and so on. Just like a proverb, “One man’s meat is another man’s poison”.
What is "BS" is how you presume that belief or gods are required for feeling solace. If all you ever knew were those answers, then it becomes almost impossible for you to see past them. "Meaning of life" is a pointless idea if that idea points to a meaning or purpose existing before your life come into existence because there's no point to our life, we're the outcome of a billions year old (maybe more) probability game and the complexity we feel is a result of that, which deludes people into believing there's some meaning to it because they arrogantly think their human intelligence is of divine influence. You don't have any meaning or purpose and that becomes the point when dismantling the illusions of belief and religion because it enables people to seek meaning and purpose in their life instead of settling in for some meaning already there. It's an apathy out of religion, tailored to be very easy for people in power to take advantage of since if meaning and purpose is already there "by God", then people stop introspection and self-reflection, people stop examining their lived life since there's no point in some "grand plan".
Religion is the sugar-coated diabetes-inducing candy with unhealthy substances not written out on the package. Viewing the universe as it is, to the best of knowledge that exists is the healthy meal.
I feel wonder and excitement and meaning and purpose in accepting the world, nature, and universe for what it is. I feel awe in the wake of things like the James Webb telescope looking deep into the hidden truths of the universe.
All those things that you think are missing in a life without religion or belief, do indeed exist there. But a religious person, a person of belief cannot understand or see any of that because they are blinded by the arrogance of their belief. That's why they say "bullshit" to such explanations because anything other than God, belief, and religion is beneath them. Unfortunately, history and historians of religion has enough examples and explanations of how religion gets "invented", the psychology behind it and most importantly... how destructive it can be. Just because you can't or don't know anyone who has found solace and peace without God, religion, and belief doesn't mean that it is impossible. Only if you strawman it by saying stuff like "research doesn't give meaning" disregarding every further notion of expansion of this concept can you make it true for yourself. But thinking that there aren't people in the world feeling just as fulfilled by life without the fantasies cooked up by people throughout history to explain the unexplainable, is just arrogant and proves my point that very few really understand any of this, even among those calling themselves athetists.
Well, that's exactly the question. Dawkins, quite ignorantly, says the purpose of life is to pass on genes or memes, which is just a dogmatic belief.
Now it's true that life has evolved in a long process starting at the big bang, but who says all universal life would not have evolved into the same beings if the initial state were different?
Quoting Christoffer
But science and religion can go hand in hand. Science lacks the explanation of where the basic ingredients of the universe come from, and gods can offer a reason for why it appeared. It's a totally different reason than the scientific take. Gods are not needed to fill gaps (science can work it out to the fundaments), but to give reason for a gapless state of matter in the first place.
So, the mindless reason that science gives for existence (reducing it to coincidental combinations of lifeless particles) is replaced by a reasonable creation act with a purpose, endowing existence with a wonder science has taken away.
I'm not Dawkins and I'm saying there's no purpose in that either. It's part of the web of life that evolved by probability. There's no more purpose to passing on our genes than for a fungus to spread interconnected nerves through a forest. We attribute divine meaning to something meaningless because we can't stand the notion that there's no meaning at all. Instead of giving it a sense of meaning rationally connected to its existence as it is. Dawkins might just say those things about purpose to make an argument for the believers, because believers can't grasp the concept of no given purpose or meaning.
Quoting Hillary
The problem with theistic philosophy is that when breaking down the concepts, the theists end up with a vague notion that something kickstarted everything and any kind of actual divine meaning and purpose becomes just as meaningless as if there was no divine entity at all. And changing the initial state is no different than some random fluke letting the Nazis win the war instead of the allied nations. Today would look different if the universe had another start, but not so different that it would flip the concept of meaning and purpose in favor of some divinity. It's also quite irrelevant to any meaning or purpose for individuals. The problem with theism is that every philosophical discussion around God, belief, and religion ends up in a first cause argument totally dislocated from the actual initial argument of the discussion. Theism has become a warm blanket of pseudo-intellectualism as the last stance against rationality. The last line of defense for the religious to feel there's hope for their personal conviction to survive.
I'm saying, just let go, embrace things for what they are, and find meaning and purpose untouched by the corruption of thought that is an irrational belief.
Quoting Hillary
Things like this have been said since the renaissance started to seriously separate church and knowledge for our modern world. For every discovery and scientific breakthrough, the theistic goal posts gets shifted further and further away into places of obscurity. But research has always pushed this back. We're constantly moving closer to things like a unified theory, we are constantly knowing more and more about the universe. What happens when science explains all of what you said? Would you move the goalposts further, like theists and religious people have done so many times in the last 500 years? It all becomes a parody of theism, the person pointing to the mystery and as the mystery gets explained they point somewhere else and says it's a mystery. It's close to what doomsday cults are doing, placing a date for the end of the world, and then it doesn't happen they just brush it off and choose a new date for it. It's fundamentally irrational.
And we still know so much today that the notion of something divine being there, just beyond the reach of understanding becomes a concept so vague that the idea of something divine becomes irrelevant.
I hope you are familiar with the parable of the invisible gardener?
Quoting Hillary
So? It's still just fantasy created to soothe those who can't accept that there's no divine meaning or purpose. It's circular reasoning where you have to accept the conclusion before making the argument. It's philosophical garbage, which is what theism really is. Theism feels like a philosophical playground where the rules of conduct don't apply and theists don't have to reach the same level of scrutiny as the rest of the philosophical community. So they create this bubble in which they can discuss philosophy under the comfort blanket of an already decided truth about the universe; the decision that the divine exists and we shouldn't question that but can question everything else. It's just as irrational as religion itself and theists are unable to discuss it with proper philosophers because they get stuck in those decided truths and can only boil down to conclusions like "I think what you say is bullshit".
Children in a playground, playing with the invisible gardener. While the adults know it's just playful fantasy for the comfort of their minds.
You have possibly been living in this time only, for many trillions of years, if not infinitely. Its unlikely that you have evolved from a single cell or have lived throughout history, because evolution is a trick and the trick is, that we have evolved into a fully human being through natural selection and through survival of the fittess, when we are in fact, ( Scientifically and mathematically) "Supernatural". Evolution did happen, but it happened inside firing neurons and brain waves of probabilities, deep inside Gods universe brain.