Is Mathematics Racist?

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I think it's the white's people free market capitalist system that is imposed via math. Money and quantities of it are involved? The "Jane buys 10 products at costprice..." kinds of problems. To which also the whites get exposed though.

Reply to jgill
I actually think the argument that mathematics is somehow rooted in "white supremacist culture" (as the article claims) falls apart when you realize that Asians on average tend to have better math skills than whites. As someone from California, I wince that they are trying to take calculus out of the curriculum because it somehow causes some students to feel "naturally better/worse" at math. Ironic that this policy comes from a liberal California, where achievement gaps for Black, Latino and low-income students are the widest in the nation.

As Tom Loveless said, “The way you get social justice in mathematics is to teach the kids math...not by dressing up mathematics in social justice.”

Granted, there were plenty of mathematicians who were racist (R. L. Moore), and of course departments should do their best to counteract racism by faculty, other students, etc so those who have ability or work hard can succeed

Reply to whollyrolling

Math is mainly white. The number of white mathematicians vs. black mathematicians doesn't reflect the true ratio. Same for physicists.

I do not observe math as being racist. "It" is an open source programming language for the Universe. Anyone can access "it", as there are no barriers to entry. You can even create your own open source math(s)!

This is like asking if JavaScript or Python are racist! Of course they're not, they're tools. Just like math. Math is a tool. Users of math can be racist, yes. But not math "itself".

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Quoting whollyrolling

2 + 2 = white? Nope.

2+2=4 is an invention made by white folks. That's why the number of white mathematicians is relatively much higher than the number of black mathematicians. Black people see the madness of 2+2=4, or integrals in general.

How a tool is used can be "racist" (or some other exploitative/discriminatory "x–ist") like for instance financial redlining, not the mere tool itself. :roll:

Reply to Bret Bernhoft :fire:

Reply to 180 Proof

The tool itself is a white invention. Neil deGrasse is a deserter.

Reply to Hillary

I'm interested in learning more about what you mean. How is a "tool", a white invention? Please be specific.

Quoting Hillary

The tool itself is a white invention

Even if that's true, your claim suggests a genetic fallacy ... Big whup, Your Wokeness.

Reply to Bret Bernhoft

Just look at the history of math. Mainly white folks.

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Quoting 180 Proof

Genetic fallacy.

Might be, but Gauss, Hamilton, Lorenz, Lagrange, Cauchy, etc. Were white, if I remember correctly. Where are the blacks? And why there is a relative small number at university? I'm not saying they are not able.

Quoting whollyrolling

How racist is that statement..

It's a fact.

This caught my eye.

The Vancouver, Washington, school board director moved to dramatically alter advanced classes because too many white kids were enrolled. He would force the higher achievers into classrooms with underachievers to meet the district's equity commitment.

I wonder how many black, Latin, or mixed race kids got screwed over there. And how many low achievers improved.
I don't think that it should be considered discriminatory if the kids that are not doing well in school, many of them for the same reasons, are all put together so that highly trained teacher can work on a single learning level to raise their achievements to a higher standard.

Kids need to be taught at their level of learning, not some sitting in an office talking bullshit minister's single level of learning ideas. Every kid has his/her own special needs, and they don't get met by over stuffing classrooms with overworked, badly equipped teachers working under some idiots ideas of fairness.
Working in a classroom that contains many people with different needs is nearly impossible. You end up with everyone except the very high achievers going down.

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Quoting Hillary

Just look at the history of math. Mainly white folks.

Just look at the true history of numbers, not many of the numbers came from white peoples languages.

https://education.casio.co.uk/blog/a-brief-history-of-numbers

Reply to whollyrolling

The facts don't lie.

Quoting Sir2u

Just look at the true history of numbers

"Thee true history of numbers,"? As if such exists...

Quoting Hillary

As if such exists?

You don't think god gave us numbers do you?

Reply to whollyrolling

Now I am considered racist, while it's white supremacy enforcing math at our schools.

Reply to Hillary You can't be that stupid. Go troll somewhere else.

Quoting Sir2u

You don't think god gave us numbers do you?

How so? God doesn't exist.

Quoting 180 Proof

Troll somewhere else.

Is that all you got?

Jesus, 10 replies in one minute! Touchy subject. How can that be...? Personal assault?

Quoting Hillary

Now I am considered racist, while it's white supremacy enforcing math at our schools.

Common sense is enforcing math in school, if you cannot use math adequately you are useless to society, so you have math in schools.

The methods of teaching math might be questionable, but not the need for teaching it.

Quoting Sir2u

Common sense is enforcing math in school

Well, then you have a different common sense. Of course white folks and blacks have the same potential. But math is a white invention. That can't be denied!

Quoting Hillary

How so? God doesn't exist.

You don't think that there is a history of numbers and god does not exist, so where did numbers come from.

And why do you capitalize the name of a none existent being?

Reply to jgill

Math wasn’t racist until people such as the Ethnic Studies Math teacher entered the scene. They are creating systemic racism.

Quoting Sir2u

And why do you capitalize the name of a none existent being?

That's normally done at the beginning of a sentence. Jesus....

Quoting Hillary

But math is a white invention. That can't be denied!

Denied. :rofl: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_mathematics

Quoting Sir2u

You don't think that there is a history of numbers and god does not exist, so where did numbers come from.

It's not about numbers but what the mathematicians, mainly white did with them. Just look at the history of math. There are excellent black physicist or mathematicians, but they are by far in the minority. It's got a white aura.

Quoting 180 Proof

Denied. :rofl:

:rofl:

god never gets capitalized in my sentences. Screw the grammar police. :lol:

Reply to Sir2u

:rofl:

sAY AGAIN! sCrew gOD!

Reply to NOS4A2 So, for example, financial redlining, which long predates "Ethnic Studies", isn't systemic racial discrimination?

Quoting Hillary

There are excellent black physicist or mathematicians, but they are by far in the minority.

White taxi drivers are also a minority, should we call for an investigation into the racism of taxis as well?

Is there really any solid evidence that white people are keeping black people out of math and related areas? Just saying that there are only a few does not prove racism.

Quoting Hillary

sAY AGAIN!

Quoting Sir2u

god never gets capitalized in my sentences. Screw the grammar police. :lol:

Reply to 180 Proof

"these neighborhoods have significant numbers of racial and ethnic minorities"

How mathematical is that already? :lol:

Reply to Sir2u

:rofl:

sAy agAin: gOD sUcks!

Okay, serious now. I can see I have bad influence! I politely back off! Continue.

Quoting Hillary

sAy agAin: gOD sUcks!

You are going too far now, I only said that god never gets capitalized. I never said that I do not follow the rest of the grammar rules. :rofl:

Quoting Sir2u

You are going too far now, I only said that god never gets capitalized

his son got Capital punishment! We're drifting off...

Less than 1% of all mathematicians is Afro-American. Mary Jackson and David Blackwell are among the best!

Reply to jgill Quoting jgill

Here is an article that is disturbing, at least for me, an old retired prof. What do you think?

I think you need to know that the author of that article , Jason Rantz, is a right wing propagandist not known for his journalistic integrity. Is there any legitimate basis for his claims? While there may well be, please, for my sake, do your homework and find a more well researched and impartial source to post here so I dont have to be exposed to Rantz’s inane scratchings.

( like this from the Washington Post:

Is math racist? Wrong question.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/15/is-math-racist-public-school-pedagogy/

Reply to 180 Proof

I was just talking about Math.

All of us, black and white, and yellow, and red, are stuck with the mad inventions of a bunch of white guys and the tradition started in ancient Greek.

Quoting NOS4A2

I was just talking about Math.

Oh, right, and finance isn't applied math. :roll:

I took a gander through the actual materials linked in the article and .. it's really not that bad. Most of it has to do with pedagogy in general rather than any specific mathematical practice. The advice they list is really quite trans-disciplinary. Eg:

Too often students are tracked based on the notion that adults know what the right thing is for them, which does not allow room for student agency, reinforcing paternalism and powerhoarding. Often, placement into different tracks reflect subjective metrics of innate ability without acknowledging prior opportunities or experiences. Following the same vein, leadership often decides which teacher is right for which course without allowing input from the teachers, students, or parents.

While access to grade-level content for every student is the responsibility of schools and essential for equity, a focus on content alone is insufficient for achieving meaningful mathematical power for all students. When only focusing on content without applying a culturally responsive lens or strategic scaffolding, there is a risk of perpetuating white supremacy culture and inequities. A hyperfocus on individual standards requires teachers to function under a system of urgency to “cover” all the material that will be on the test and not focus on actual learning of the big ideas. This approach is not only disengaging, it also limits opportunities for teachers to connect the content to students’ lives in meaningful, relevant ways.

"Best practices" for math pedagogy often exclude the unique needs of Black, Latinx and multilingual or migrant students. This reinforces either/or thinking by reinforcing stereotypes about the type of mathematical education that certain groups of students receive. It allows the defensiveness of Western mathematics to prevail, without addressing underlying causes of why certain groups of students are “underperforming,” a characterization that should also be interrogated. It also presupposes that “good” math teaching is about a Eurocentric type of mathematics, devoid of cultural ways of being.

https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf

Like, sure, some of this might be quite contestable, but it's quite a far fry from 'math is racist'.

Examples of advice for classroom practice:

Provide students with opportunities to give feedback to teachers about the classroom and instruction.

• Verbal Example: Fist to five, How well do you understand what we talked about today? Fist to five, How well did I teach this today?
• Classroom Activity: Exit tickets or surveys that ask students to identify how well teachers taught, what helped them learn, what got in the way of their learning, etc.
• Professional Development: Conduct regular surveys and disaggregate data on teacher practices.

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Incorporate the history of mathematics into lessons.

• Verbal Example: Why do you think we call it Pythagorean’s theorem, when it was used before he was even born? What should we call it instead?
• Classroom Activity: Learn about different bases and numerical ideas: Base 2, binary and connections to computer programming, how the Yoruba of Nigeria used base 20, and how the Mayans conceptualized the number 0 before the first recording of it.
• Professional Development: Learn the history of mathematics. Take a course, go to a conference, read historically and culturally accurate books, and use the resources in this workbook. Focus on different approaches to learning concepts.

--

Consider what grades really mean to you, and articulate a plan that is consistent with those values.

• Professional Development: As a department, consider how you would proceed with teaching if no letter grades were to be given. Review alternative ways of grading (standards based, mastery based, A/B no pass, etc.). Emphasize formative assessment.
• Professional Development: As a department, review current assessment and grading practices to determine what values are reinforced for the purpose of making grades more purposeful.
• Professional Development: Develop formative assessments that highlight student knowledge rather than deficit knowledge. Consider bringing in experts to help design this.

So uh, yeah, if anything thinks this amounts to 'math is racist' then they are pretty straightforwardly wrong.

My first few years as an asst prof I taught college algebra out of a textbook by Vance, I think. It incorporated the "New Math", an idea that had mostly expired by then. I tried to maintain a level of enthusiasm, but it was heavy going as I dealt with simple rules like a+0=a. The thrust of this pedagogical experiment was to introduce abstract underpinnings for the rote procedures previously championed. I suspect the NM did more to separate the superior math talented from those having average math intellects than anything since - the latter group losing what little interest in the subject they had to begin with. Perhaps the opposite of what is described in the article except for discovery notions.

The NM was an idea broadly supported by math professionals in universities, whereas the reform ideas advanced by advocates of approaches described in the article have little support amongst the professorial class. Hmmm.

Wiki:

Topics introduced in the New Math include set theory, modular arithmetic, algebraic inequalities, bases other than 10, matrices, symbolic logic, Boolean algebra, and abstract algebra.[2] All of the New Math projects emphasized some form of discovery learning.[3] Students worked in groups to invent theories about problems posed in the textbooks. Materials for teachers described the classroom as "noisy." Part of the job of the teacher was to move from table to table assessing the theory that each group of students had developed and "torpedoing" wrong theories by providing counterexamples.

No, math is not racist. But the following from a Seattle Public School document seems to ignore the fact that "Western" mathematics is the only kind that really works in the modern world. Historical contributions certainly came from many cultural sources, but we are beyond cuneiform impressions on clay tablets. I taught math history on occasion and relished the discussion of Omar Khayyam, one of the ancestors of the subject I explored.

Power and oppression, as defined by
ethnic studies, are the ways in which
individuals and groups define
mathematical knowledge so as to see
“Western” mathematics as the only
legitimate expression of mathematical
identity and intelligence. This definition
of legitimacy is then used to
disenfranchise people and
communities of color. This erases the
historical contributions of people and
communities of color.

Reply to jgill Certainly, mathematics at any level can be taught in such a way that students are permanently turned off the subject. The same goes for history, literature, woodworking, chemistry, Spanish--any subject. Who of us has not, at some point, been the recipient of bad pedagogy? Negative attitudes? Official disinterest in our success in life?

That math is or can be racist is not a concept worth discussing. That the experience of students in schools can be racially demeaning, given local racist values, given that a lot of bad pedagogy is practiced, and given that the community from which some students come may not be interested in education, is very much worth discussing.

There is a good film illustrating great math instruction: Stand And Deliver, the story of Jaime Escalante, a high school teacher who successfully inspired his dropout-prone students to learn calculus. Escalante used good pedagogy, but he also brought a great deal of commitment to his classroom.

Is there a secret teaching method which will almost always produce great results? I certainly don't know it. I am quite certain that schools can do better, but not without rather big changes in the whole project.

The trajectory of an explosive shell, a parabola, isn't affected by race, nor is the area of its kill zone, nor the nature of the injuries sustained by shrapnel from it.

That said, one pontential source of danger is math's (claim of) objectivity.

Reply to Hillary Troll

Quoting jgill

I taught at the college level for many years and never thought of the subject or my teaching strategies as racist, but I know only a little of how math is taught K-9. Here is an article that is disturbing, at least for me, an old retired prof. What do you think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory

A key CRT concept is intersectionality—the way in which different forms of inequality and identity are affected by interconnections of race, class, gender and disability.[6] Scholars of CRT view race as a social construct with no biological basis. One tenet of CRT is that racism and disparate racial outcomes are the result of complex, changing, and often subtle social and institutional dynamics, rather than explicit and intentional prejudices of individuals.

This has nothing to do with math, instead math is being used as a tool to mathematically prove something which victims of racism do not like.

The question is, can victims of racism make CRT mathematical formula wrong?

Reply to SpaceDweller Critical Theory is pretty nebulous, non-specific and based on little to no empirical evidence. It is a way of looking at things and asking questions, but not much more.

CRT is use of a pretty flimsy idea applied to a highly contentious subject matter.

It seems to me the whole math thing was initiated by right leaning people based on some absurd idea that mathematics is racist :D

CRT, and CT in general, should be taken too seriously at all. They are just proposals for ways of looking at social interactions and social structures. It is not a ‘theory’ in the sense that evolution is a theory … not even close!

As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy characteristics as defined by Jones and Okun (2001). They are as follows:
• Perfectionism
• Sense of Urgency
• Defensiveness
• Quantity Over Quality
• Worship of the Written Word • Paternalism
• Either/Or Thinking
• Power Hoarding
• Fear of Open Conflict
• Individualism
• Only One Right Way
• Progress is Bigger, More
• Objectivity
• Right to Comfort

https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf

So, obviously, if one applies a minimum of charitable interpretation, it is the style and institution of education that is in question, rather than the topic itself. And it is part of a much wider analysis of the legacy culture of capitalism that grew out of slavery.

Now obviously again, if one changes the implicit values of an education system that serves a particular society that education will fail to serve that same society, by the measure of its own values. This is an excellent argument against all progress, beloved by conservatives.

The article is another right-wing hatchet job on critical race theory that refuses to even imagine that societies' values might change - The American Way is the only way and nothing better can be conceived.

Sorry, I don't understand. Was the journalist in the OP article saying maths teaching isn't racist? And who is saying it is? Critical Race Theory isn't a particular view is it? Are some Critical Race Theorists (if they exist - I don't know anything about it) saying the Maths curriculum is racist? If so, is it because, for example, we call it Pythagoras's theorem when it in fact wasn't pythagoras who first came up with it? (Thanks Street for doing some looking up). If the idea was around before pythagoras, it makes sense to acknowledge that doesn't it?

Sorry, I could probably answer all my own questions with some googling, it'll just take me ages.

Quoting unenlightened

capitalism that grew out of slavery.

Slavery has never been as refined and hypocrite as nowadays. It wears a deceiving free world mask.

Reply to bert1

The writer of the linked article being a far right supporter I wonder what it is he wants to say.

Reply to Hillary OK, thanks. The article wasn't clear to me. I got that he was right wing, but I couldn't find a clear point.

Reply to bert1

Well, to be honest, I haven't got a clue either. If he says math is racial and enforcing a white ideal of capitalism (numbers, profit, large amounts, interdependencies, etc.), isn't that arguing against yourself (if it's correct that he's a far-right supporter, which I read her but didn't google, not being native American)?

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Quoting jgill

I taught at the college level for many years and never thought of the subject or my teaching strategies as racist, but I know only a little of how math is taught K-9.

Your reference to "teaching strategies" indicates that you recognize that math itself is not the basic problem, but the way that it is taught may be a problem. That's what StreetlightX indicates as well. The issue is the clearest at the most basic, elementary levels. There appears to be a need to employ examples at the elementary level, and the examples are chosen, or created, with various intentions of being relevant, interesting, insightful, inciteful, or whatever. You can see that relative to different people, of different backgrounds, different examples will have different effects. If the desired effect is to encourage the student to participate and continue in the learning process, there will be discrepancies in successfulness, depending on the significance of the examples.

If we proceed toward higher levels, the issue (problem, when you see it that way) goes much deeper, and it gets much more complex and difficult to identify. The often cited issue of marking, and designating correct and incorrect is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure you understand that in the education of a subject like mathematics there is a very real need for direction in the form of the judgement of correct and incorrect. But we can ask what is this judgement based in, where is it grounded, and we see that "correct" means consistent with the currently accepted axioms.

Now, you'll know from my discussions in this forum, that mathematical axioms are not based in empirical truth, and I do not even believe that they are logically consistent. The mathematical axioms which are accepted into the community of those who apply mathematics, are the ones which are useful within their fields of operation, so the judgements of "correct" and "incorrect", in the teaching of mathematics are very pragmatically based. This is why the different courses of mathematical education in high school are now sometimes geared toward specific career goals, what is required for that specific field of education. It used to be that math was divided by categories like "basic" and "advanced", etc., but this was sort of degrading to the person in "basic" math, so I think the trend today is to offer the math which is designated as what is required for a specific discipline..

Consider if you will, the relationship between what mathematics is, and the way mathematics is taught. We can say that mathematics consists of tools, and the tools are accepted into use, therefore designed to an extent, for the various uses. Teaching, on the other hand is a way of manipulating minds to accept specific things as correct and incorrect. The two seem very distinct, but imagine if there is a reciprocating relationship between the two. Then the tool might be designed toward manipulating minds toward accepting specific things as correct. Historically such a tool would be known as "rhetoric". But when it infiltrates into logic and mathematics it's better known as "sophistry".

I believe that this is where the issue becomes a problem. The issue is the reality of what mathematics is. The problem is that since it's a tool to be used, it can also be used abusively. In relation to the op, the problems of the teaching strategies become a problem of the mathematics itself, when the teaching strategies become implanted into the mathematical principles themselves. That would be when the principles, or axioms are designed to manipulate minds in a specific way.

Reply to Metaphysician Undercover

Thanks for your thoughts. Always interesting and provocative. One of the major tasks in the early grades is to develop critical and precise thinking skills. This paves the road to mathematical competence. How to do this across cultural lines is probably a challenge.

Reply to jgill
I don't see how critical thinking is relevant here. What paves the road to mathematical competence is the removal of critical thoughts. This is submission to authority. What is important, is that the student accepts the authority of the teacher. Then the student accepts without being critical.

What I described is a separation between the principles themselves, axioms which are taught, and this art of teaching, the technique by which the teacher impresses one's authority on the student. If the principles to be taught, the axioms themselves, are designed so as to fulfill the task of impressing authority, then they are not principles of logic, but principles of persuasion. That is, if the students are taught to see the principles, or axioms, themselves as the authority, rather than seeing the teacher as the authority, this opens the door to abuse of the students, because the principles and axioms are really the tools of those who use them. Then instead of the student learning to be the master of the tool, the student learns to submit to the tool, becoming a slave to the tool, without knowing who the master of that tool is. So the question is, are you inclining your students to be masters of the art, or are you teaching them to submit to the principles of mathematics? And various students from different backgrounds might perceive the same teaching methods in very different ways, due to the teacher's capacity to establish one's own authority, or relying on appealing to the authority of the principles.

Quoting Metaphysician Undercover

What paves the road to mathematical competence is the removal of critical thoughts.

At times I wish I were still teaching so I could take jewels like this into the classroom. :cool:

Reply to Hillary There is an easy way to get more black mathematicians. Specifically provide huge incentives for black mathematicians and other extremely smart black people to have extremely massive families. In other words, race-specific voluntary eugenics. And/or you could import black mathematicians from abroad. Though there probably aren't that many of them throughout the entire world either.

Not necessarily.