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Eternity and The Afterlife

charles ferraro April 24, 2022 at 18:28 6100 views 30 comments
If eternity is defined as the absence or negation of time, rather than simply as an unending future, then what implications would this have for my life after death?

Eternal life would not simply mean an unending future life but, rather, a life unfettered by time, freed from the temporal dimensions of past, present, and future.

Upon my death, I would not merely encounter in heaven only those persons who died before me, but I would also encounter in heaven all those persons who I thought I was leaving behind, and I would also encounter in heaven all those persons who would be my future descendants.

Any comments about this?

Comments (30)

Jackson April 24, 2022 at 18:31 #685685
Quoting charles ferraro
If eternity is defined as the absence or negation of time, rather than simply as an unending future, then what implications would this have for my life after death?

Eternal life would not simply mean an unending future life but, rather, a life unfettered by time, freed from the temporal dimensions of past, present, and future.

Upon my death, I would not merely encounter in heaven only those persons who died before me, but I would also encounter in heaven all those persons who I thought I was leaving behind, and I would also encounter in heaven all those persons who would be my future descendants.

Any comments about this?


Why do you believe in an after life?
charles ferraro April 24, 2022 at 18:41 #685688
Reply to Jackson

What I proposed does not necessarily mean that I believe in an afterlife. I simply wanted to investigate the implications a certain interpretation of the meaning of eternity would have on an afterlife if one assumed it existed.
Jackson April 24, 2022 at 18:43 #685690
Quoting charles ferraro
What I proposed does not necessarily mean that I believe in an afterlife. I simply wanted to investigate the implications a certain interpretation of the meaning of eternity would have on an afterlife if one assumed it existed.


Why think about something you don't believe in?
charles ferraro April 24, 2022 at 18:44 #685691
Reply to Jackson Reply to Jackson

It's intellectual fun!
SpaceDweller April 24, 2022 at 18:59 #685698
Reply to charles ferraro
eternal life is to be understood as existing in another reality, not in this universe.

time in that another reality is to be understood as not correlated with time in this reality, it is impossible to imagine the speed of time in another reality because it's eternal, any limitation to time would question eternity.

Quoting charles ferraro
Upon my death, I would not merely encounter in heaven only those persons who died before me, but I would also encounter in heaven all those persons who I thought I was leaving behind, and I would also encounter in heaven all those persons who would be my future descendants.

Yes, because afterlife in another reality means transition of soul from this reality to another reality and the process as well as death is unavoidable.
180 Proof April 24, 2022 at 21:11 #685749
Reply to charles ferraro
[quote=Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus]Death is not an event in life: we do not live to experience death. If we take eternity to mean not infinite temporal duration but timelessness, then eternal life belongs to those who live in the present. Our life has no end in the way in which our visual field has no limits.[/quote]
charles ferraro April 24, 2022 at 22:10 #685775
Reply to 180 Proof

For each of us, death is the MOST SIGNIFICANT and DEFINITIVE EVENT we will ever experience in our life, because it puts a definite end to our life, it cancels it.

We each live awaiting this ultimate, inevitable cancellation of personal life.

Eternal life, if it does exist, DOES NOT belong to those who live in the present, because eternity, unlike time, is dimensionless; it lacks past, present, and future.

Eternal life, if it does exist, transcends ALL temporal dimensions.



















180 Proof April 24, 2022 at 22:14 #685778
Quoting charles ferraro
We each live awaiting this ultimate, inevitable cancellation of personal life.

:death: :flower:
[quote=Ethica, ordine geometrico demonstrata]A free man thinks of death least of all things, and his wisdom is a meditation not of death but of life.
charles ferraro April 24, 2022 at 22:34 #685790
I'm tired of responding to Ludwig and Benedict. How about what YOU think!!!
180 Proof April 24, 2022 at 22:45 #685800
Reply to charles ferraro As a state-of-affairs, "the afterlife" – life after life – belongs in the same spitoon of nonsense with e.g. "north of the North Pole", "disembodied person", etc.
Janus April 24, 2022 at 22:53 #685805
Quoting charles ferraro
Eternal life, if it does exist, DOES NOT belong to those who live in the present, because eternity, unlike time, is dimensionless; it lacks past, present, and future.

Eternal life, if it does exist, transcends ALL temporal dimensions.


If eternal life transcends all temporal dimensions then it cannot be "after" anything, least of all death.
180 Proof April 24, 2022 at 22:55 #685808
Quoting Janus
If eternal life transcends all temporal dimensions then it cannot be "after" anything, least of all death.

:clap: :smirk:
Wayfarer April 24, 2022 at 23:26 #685819
Reply to charles ferraro My thoughts about it are that the intuition of 'the deathless' represents a supremely important understanding, but that it is very difficult to understand correctly.

There's a Buddhist sutta (verse) called The Eastern Gatehouse. It comprises as dialogue between the Buddha and Sariputta. (It ought to be said that the figure of Sariputta, one of the Buddha's closest disciples, is customarily the figure in the Buddhist scriptures with whom the Buddha converses about matters of great depth or profundity.) The Buddha opens the dialogue with a rhetorical question:

Sariputta, do you take it on conviction that the faculty of conviction, when developed and pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation? Do you take it on conviction that the faculty of persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation?


In such verses, 'the Deathless' is a synonym for Nibbana, which is elsewhere depicted as freedom from the eternal round of birth and death. It might also be pointed out however that neither is Nibbana heaven - there are indeed heavens and hells in the Buddhist world but they are still aspects of sa?s?ra, the round of birth and death.

I think that description is congruent with your second paragraph, but not with the idea of retaining one's sense of self and sense of others. Of course, for this reason, nibbana (Nirv??a) is often taken as a nihilistic idea, being the complete cessation of awareness or of being. But another sutra rejects this as a wrong notion (notice again that it is addressed to Sariputta but here represented in the Sanskrit as distinct from the Pali language, because from a Mah?y?na scripture):

??riputra, foolish ordinary beings do not have the wisdom that comes from hearing the Dharma. When they hear about a Tath?gata’s entering nirv??a, they take the wrong view of cessation or extinction. Because of their perception of cessation or extinction, they claim that the realm of sentient beings decreases. Their claim constitutes an enormously wrong view and an extremely grave, evil karma.

“Furthermore, ??riputra, from the wrong view of decrease, these sentient beings derive three more wrong views. These three views and the view of decrease, like a net, are inseparable from each other. What are these three views? They are (1) the view of cessation, which means the ultimate end; (2) the view of extinction, which is equated to nirv??a; (3) the view that nirv??a is a void, which means that nirv??a is the ultimate quiet nothingness. ??riputra, in this way these three views fetter, hold, and impress [sentient beings].


Which, of course, raises the question of the manner of a Buddha's existence in the 'deathless realm' - a question which cannot be answered from within the frame of reference of sentient beings.

Quoting 180 Proof
"eternal life belongs to those who live in the present"


Taking into account one's entanglement with actions that are to have future consequences. In other words, living fully in the present would imply the ending of all such ties - holding no hopes, no regrets, fully reconciled in the moment.
charles ferraro April 24, 2022 at 23:49 #685834
Reply to 180 Proof

Perhaps. But since you and I are still alive, we cannot yet know, with complete certainty, if it belongs in your ontological spitoon, can we?
Tom Storm April 24, 2022 at 23:59 #685841
Quoting charles ferraro
Upon my death, I would not merely encounter in heaven only those persons who died before me, but I would also encounter in heaven all those persons who I thought I was leaving behind, and I would also encounter in heaven all those persons who would be my future descendants.

Any comments about this?


I have no belief in an afterlife and I find the idea incoherent. Death holds no fascination for me and the idea of eternity is meaningless. I consider that before I was born I was effectively 'dead' for 'eternity'.

Death. The certain prospect of death could sweeten every life with a precious and fragrant drop of levity - and now you strange apothecary souls have turned it into an ill-tasting drop of poison that makes the whole of life repulsive.


Nietzsche
charles ferraro April 25, 2022 at 00:03 #685846
Reply to Janus

Technically, you're correct.
180 Proof April 25, 2022 at 00:18 #685851
Reply to charles ferraro "Complete certainty" only pertains to formal systems and not to matter of facts or predictions therefrom. There is not any objective evidence that warrants belief that there is an "afterlife" (i.e. survival of personality – metacognitive self-continuity – after irreversible brain-death). Yeah, high improbability ain't "complete certainty", but it'll do until complete certainty (my death) gets here. :death: :flower:
Agent Smith April 25, 2022 at 16:10 #686126
Reply to 180 Proof :up: You're on target 180 Proof. The thing is there's no strong evidence the other way round too i.e. we don't have any strong justification to say that we don't survive physical death. This, to me, is the crux of the issue and explains why the belief in an afterlife is so persistent. True there's denial, hope, fear mixed in there as well, but the nub of it is that we really don't know, oui?
180 Proof April 25, 2022 at 18:54 #686233
Reply to Agent Smith We know enough – people die and they are no longer communicable-participants in our lives, or the commons. Thus, the affirmative claim that "the dead survive" bears the burden of proof, and not the other way around. False equivalence, Smith.
Haglund April 25, 2022 at 18:58 #686236
Quoting 180 Proof
There is not any objective evidence that warrants belief that there is an "afterlife" (


Neither is there that warrants there is none.
180 Proof April 25, 2022 at 19:49 #686262
Reply to Haglund Non sequitur. Apparently, you don't understand my last post or haven't read it.
Haglund April 25, 2022 at 20:07 #686268
Reply to 180 Proof

I read it indeed after I posted. Why should the burden be on the afterliver? And what about the proof of theoretical induction, pointing merciless to infinite replay mechanisms?
180 Proof April 25, 2022 at 20:33 #686278
Quoting Haglund
Why should the burden be on the afterliver?

Because the burden of proof falls both on the positive claim and on the extraordinary claim which is contrary to ordinary experience and facticity. One is born, one lives, one dies. On what grounds do you claim more than that? How do you know this? Or why believe it if you don't know? What's your evidence? :chin:
Janus April 25, 2022 at 20:37 #686282
Quoting Wayfarer
Taking into account one's entanglement with actions that are to have future consequences. In other words, living fully in the present would imply the ending of all such ties - holding no hopes, no regrets, fully reconciled in the moment.


That's the spirit!
Haglund April 25, 2022 at 20:54 #686287
Quoting 180 Proof
Why should the burden be on the afterliver?
— Haglund
Because the burden of proof falls both on the positive claim and on the extraordinary claim which is contrary to ordinary experience and facticity.


So the burden of proof lays on the believer because it lays on the believer? Why should they proof it in the first place? If they could, it wouldn't be a belief anymore. Of course it could be a fantasy then, but isn't the big bang a fantasy too then? How you wanna proof the big bang?
180 Proof April 25, 2022 at 22:51 #686314
Reply to Haglund Oh man, you're "trying" way too hard ... :lol:
Haglund April 25, 2022 at 22:58 #686319
Quoting 180 Proof
Oh man, you're "trying" way too hard ...


"Try" what?
180 Proof April 25, 2022 at 23:01 #686323
Haglund April 25, 2022 at 23:02 #686325
Reply to 180 Proof

The laughter of despair?
Agent Smith April 26, 2022 at 04:43 #686407