Facing up suicide: is the concept of death the main difference between Western and Japanese artists?
Writers, painters, sculptors and other kinds of artists have always expressed their impressions towards death. In this specific context, I see a different perception of death if we look into Western or Japanese artists.
As an example of suicidal writers from the West I like to mention John Kennedy Toole. He killed himself after writing a confederacy of dunces. But this act was committed as an act caused by depression. He had a lot of misunderstandings with the editors wondering that his book will never be published at all, so he would end up as a loser. Here I perceive the death of Kennedy Toole as dramatic. He wanted to be a writer but all the concerns of not being published and bureaucracy impacted him to not consider life worthy at all to keep living…
But from a Japanese perspective the issue turns out to be so different. Two good examples:
Yasunari Kawabata a few years after winning the literature Nobel prize, killed himself without leaving a note or a haiku. Many people debated why he committed such an act. I think the concept of death by Kawabata is aesthetic. If you read Kawabata’s works you would think that suicide is part of a progress. In the book of Snow Country (Yuki no Guni) he shows the perfection of loneliness and death can be understood in a naturalistic view.
Yukio Mishima. This writer is still famous after 50 years of his suicide. He wrote in his works the reflection of Japanese civilization inside Western culture and their effects (sexuality, the rule of women, family values, politics, etc…). There is a moment where Mishima reflects that only death is what really distinct one culture from the other. He killed himself after a traditional ceremony as an act of purity. Yukio Mishima once said:
The Japanese have always been a people with a severe awareness of death. But the Japanese concept of death is pure and clear, and in that sense it is different from death as something disgusting and terrible as it is perceived by Westerners.
Conclusion: Is the concept of death the main difference between Westerners and Japanese? Do you perceive the death as terrible and dramatic?
As an example of suicidal writers from the West I like to mention John Kennedy Toole. He killed himself after writing a confederacy of dunces. But this act was committed as an act caused by depression. He had a lot of misunderstandings with the editors wondering that his book will never be published at all, so he would end up as a loser. Here I perceive the death of Kennedy Toole as dramatic. He wanted to be a writer but all the concerns of not being published and bureaucracy impacted him to not consider life worthy at all to keep living…
But from a Japanese perspective the issue turns out to be so different. Two good examples:
Yasunari Kawabata a few years after winning the literature Nobel prize, killed himself without leaving a note or a haiku. Many people debated why he committed such an act. I think the concept of death by Kawabata is aesthetic. If you read Kawabata’s works you would think that suicide is part of a progress. In the book of Snow Country (Yuki no Guni) he shows the perfection of loneliness and death can be understood in a naturalistic view.
Yukio Mishima. This writer is still famous after 50 years of his suicide. He wrote in his works the reflection of Japanese civilization inside Western culture and their effects (sexuality, the rule of women, family values, politics, etc…). There is a moment where Mishima reflects that only death is what really distinct one culture from the other. He killed himself after a traditional ceremony as an act of purity. Yukio Mishima once said:
The Japanese have always been a people with a severe awareness of death. But the Japanese concept of death is pure and clear, and in that sense it is different from death as something disgusting and terrible as it is perceived by Westerners.
Conclusion: Is the concept of death the main difference between Westerners and Japanese? Do you perceive the death as terrible and dramatic?
Comments (29)
All that comes to mind is that during WW2, the Japanese had kamikazes but the West did not; of course one has to take into account the fact that the West were never in a situation where they were backed up against a wall/driven into a corner. Worth noting is the Germans didn't have kamikazes though they were in the same do or die situation as the Japanese were. There's a grain of truth in your view then, oui?
It is true that we should not follow the same steps of our idols because they had a very different way of life from ours. Nevertheless, I think it is important to at least have a look on them because they tried (Mishima and Kawabata) to give another meaning to suicide and try to be more confident about it
It is not necessarily connected to wars. You can feel stressed for whatever reason in our Western cities. I wanted to point out that while in Japanese arts the death is accepted, in the Western is seen as pure dramatic and it looks like you are forced to live
I do not want to superimpose any culture and contrary from your view, I see the Japanese concept of death more authentic. Remember that in our "world" suicide itself is a legal punishment...
death in the west is not necessarily terrible among everyone.
In western culture there is a thing known as "death tourism", ex. in switzerland you can pay for tourism which will last few days for you to enjoy until you die with the help of assisted suicide.
:ok: I just thought it odd and interesting that the Germans didn't resort to suicide when it seems quite justified to do so, as the Nipponese folks did.
Completely. I would sound as a crazy boy but for me that specific act was so pure and authentic. At least the Nipponese died defending their thousand years old values and history… beautiful doesn’t it?
True. But it not the general opinion. Death is still seeing as terrible or even a taboo topic. Religion ensured during centuries to “refuse” the meaning and significance of death because it is seen as dramatic. I want to turn the side and try to understand and accept the death since the beginning
I showed evidence why I see the Western concept more authentic. I would like to understand the reason that make you see the Japanese one more authentic, despite not reflecting what we can see in plants, animals and children.
You didn't show any argument but I would put some apart of what I wrote in the OP.
Japanese see the perception of death more authentic because their culture is not influenced by Westerns. They understand and see the life as a scenario where our souls plays a role in the field. When the play ends the life so. If they have to die, they would do it without doubt or complains because they consider our existence as a beginning and an end. Not as a "live the life at the until of the days" like westerns.
Secondly, there is a ceremony called "seppuku" where the head of samurai clans committed suicide while composing the last haiku before the end. This act was thought to reach purity.
These facts sound pretty authentic to me...
Mishima’s Sun and Steel hints that suicide, or death in battle, was an aesthetic and romantic act. His philosophy on the topic is nebulous but quite profound, in my mind, at least as much as its English translation affords me.
Western conceptions of suicide, I fear, are so much influenced by religion, that the aesthetic, romantic, and interesting qualities have all been stripped away. The Stoics had a better conception of suicide than the ancient Greeks and the Christians, in my mind.
Thanks NOS, for understanding what I wanted to share. Exactly, Yukio Mishima saw in a aesthetic view the concept of death. Despite the fact that all the characters of their works suffer of inner pain or depression, they do not see death as a "escape" but at least, a good ending in this complex life. You quoted Sun and Steel. Amazing essay indeed. But I would quote The Temple of the Golden Pavilion:
In the other hand, it is difficult to foind out Western writers or artistes wondering about this issue, because as you well said, our concept of being dead is so surrounded by religious traditions.
There is an interesting inversion there. Mishima saw suicide and death in battle as an act of solidarity with the group, a sort of morbid collectivism. I’m not sure how much his views on suicide extend to the culture at large, but retaining or regaining one’s honor through suicide, like Seppuku, similarly implies a primacy towards group dynamics. On the other hand, Western conceptions like those found in Plato or Aquinas regard suicide as unfavorable to the group, bad for the State, and so on.
"Suicide" is always, psychopathology or hyper-romanticism notwithstanding, both premature and ex post facto because death, for us, is the inevitable irreversible dissolution of meta-cognitive self-continuity – thus, the "aesthetic" of a rain drop in the sea or blown-out candle or sudden lightning flash or a wave crashing on an empty beach – Nature's entropy. Whatever the cultural interpretive particulars, death is also always fundamentally the same, singular horizon (i.e. facticity) of each and every person. Death – ineluctable, inevitable – is the real (fate). :fire:
Good explanation :100: :fire:
Despite the fact that, death is the same path to us, we tend to conceive it in many different ways. You wrote that death can be seen as hyper-romanticism. This characteristic reminds me more from Kawabata works rather than Mishima. Yasunari wrote and developed some characters full of loneliness and lack of brisk. Nevertheless, he understood it as an aesthetic figure of the humans this is why he shouted phrases as drinking tea in a empty bowl, etc… I think it is pretty. Being lonely is not as bad as it is seen in other cultures.
As @NOS4A2 shared previously (I am fully agree with him) our culture is so surrendered by religion in terms of suicide/individual’s problems. I guess this is why it is not so easy to find out some Western books related to this topic.
I understand your point but that’s Japan in a economical point of view. I was referring in an art or literature expression. When they write haiku poems they reflect the power of individualism, loneliness and the course of life towards the nature and seasons (this is why they like to express their feelings according if it is fall, winter, spring or summer)
That's not what I was saying. I was saying - we don't know why they did what they did. We don't have access to other people's situations or inner life and any narratives made by them (or others) must be treated with caution and possibly as myth building accounts.
I wouldn't use "beautiful" to describe mortality & morbidity, but I suppose that's one of the ways the Japanese were looking at Thanatos (romanticizing war and all that). My hunch is that for some folks, Japanese or not, there are things worse than death (re spies and their cyanide capsules). Tokyo eventually capitulated post Hiroshima & Nagasaki - pain & death at that scale weren't worth it anymore.
I fear that you're not quite right there. World wars have been, by and large, a Western folks thing. What about extreme/dangerous sports, where do they originate?
Mortality can be seen as a "catastrophic" if we understand the life as worthy to live in. I used the adjective "beautiful" to describe the nature of my thread because it surprises me they way they manage to write in a perfect writing or vocabulary something so shocking as death. Instead of being a perpetual sadness they try to understand it and connect some characters related to the same topic
The leitmotif of the post-mortem spans entire human history - from Egyptian pyramids and mummies on to faiths as part of modern culture.
:fire: Yeah, the point of personifying (Thanatos, Algos, Praxidice, Nemesis, and so on) nature and phenomena part of nature is perhaps a way of trying to make them people-like, a step towards building a healthy relationship as we (attempt to) do with real peeps.
Yes! :100: :up: these states of mind remember me about an anime I saw a few years ago called "Neon Genesis Evangelion" where the main protagonists wondered about Thanatos and Nemesis and then, how worthy is the human existence itself. Another expression of art of what we are debating about!
Collectively, take the human race as a whole, what do we deserve? If it weren't for the fact that other creatures & plants are critical to our own survival, would we be making all this racket about conservation and climate change? Selfishness writ large and I haven't yet talked about how we've been an agent of extinction from the moment we set foot in the global ecology. In other words, we're working for Thanatos! I wonder how big our paycheck is?
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