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Heidegger and Wonderment

Deleted User March 29, 2022 at 03:27 5525 views 26 comments
"Heidegger spoke of two modes of existence: the everyday mode and the ontological mode. In the everyday mode we are consumed with and distracted by material surroundings—we are filled with wonderment about how things are in the world. In the ontological mode we are focused on being per se—that is, we are filled with wonderment that things are in the world. When we exist in the ontological mode—the realm beyond everyday concerns—we are in a state of particular readiness for personal change.

But how do we shift from the everyday mode to the ontological mode? Philosophers often speak of “boundary experiences”—urgent experiences that jolt us out of “everydayness” and rivet our attention upon “being” itself. The most powerful boundary experience is a confrontation with one’s own death."

Irvin Yalom


Discuss. :smile:

Comments (26)

180 Proof March 29, 2022 at 04:50 #674994
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
[H]ow do we shift from the everyday mode to the ontological mode?

By paying attention to, for instance, "the negligent and the insignificant" (J. Miller) – "the immensity of the particular" (G. Steiner) – to begin with. IME, Heidegger makes a distinction without a difference: the "ontological mode" corresponds to limit-situations (K. Jaspers) of "the everyday mode". To wit:
[quote=Zen K?an]Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water.[/quote]
NB: Closer to the pragmatic sense of wu wei, I prefer ecstasy to the term "enlightenment".
Tom Storm March 29, 2022 at 06:25 #675004
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
But how do we shift from the everyday mode to the ontological mode?


I'd first need to be convinced that the two modes exist and that they are compartmentalised in precisely this way. From my own subjective experience, the ontological and the everyday don't feel separated quite this dramatically and I think the quotidian is often a prompt to consider deeper matters of being sometimes from an initial springboard of absurdity.
Angelo Cannata March 29, 2022 at 07:18 #675012
There is no shift, it is not a jump, a next level. Rather, you can always try to be better, to think better, to behave better, assuming, while nobody is able to prove it, that we can improve, that we can perform some kind of freedom, of active and intelligent contribution. If you do this, which means, you are working on it, then you are already in the next level: the arrival point is the way, the path, the becoming.
Tom Storm March 29, 2022 at 07:21 #675013
Reply to Angelo Cannata You seem to be seeing this as a self-improvement narrative. I wonder if that's what the OP was getting at.
I like sushi March 29, 2022 at 07:25 #675014
Reply to ZzzoneiroCosm In teh same respect Husserl often liked to look at the ‘obvious’.

It does take a certain perspective to see the mundane as phenomenal (in both senses of the word!). I have been in tears at the sheer beauty of a cracked pavement. That level is not too common, but it is everywhere potentially. The awe and wonder in the experiences of life are right under out noses.

I think a key point is to recognise an object as an arbitrary delineation, and the term ‘object’ as such an object too. Heidegger was mostly concerned with the worded concepts than the sensory explication, likely because when we talk of sensation/perception we do so through these here worded terms.

The true phenomenological path is freewheeling subjectivity. The scramble to communicate these ideas to others will always fall short - but that is okay.
Ciceronianus March 29, 2022 at 15:22 #675193
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
we are filled with wonderment that things are in the world.


Why, and when, would we wonder that things are in the world? What else would be "in the world"?

What would we expect to be the case if there were no things in the world? What would we think to be an alternative? "Gee, if nothing existed, then....." Then what?

Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
But how do we shift from the everyday mode to the ontological mode?


Why would anyone want to do that? To learn what, to know what, for what purpose?
Deleted User March 29, 2022 at 16:14 #675219
Quoting Tom Storm
You seem to be seeing this as a self-improvement narrative. I wonder if that's what the OP was getting at.


Irvin Yalom is an existential psychiatrist at Stanford. The OP quote comes from his book, The Gift of Therapy.
Tom Storm March 29, 2022 at 18:44 #675265
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
Irvin Yalom is an existential psychiatrist at Stanford.


I know IY. Not sure if this is a response to my comments.

Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
When we exist in the ontological mode—the realm beyond everyday concerns—we are in a state of particular readiness for personal change.


This?
Deleted User March 29, 2022 at 19:35 #675279
Quoting 180 Proof
IME, Heidegger makes a distinction without a difference: the "ontological mode" corresponds to limit-situations (K. Jaspers) of "the everyday mode".


The experience of a limit situation within the everday - this seems to be the very difference you claim the distinction lacks. A difference of experience.





James G. Hart described that encounters with limit situations unsettle individuals, break them out of their inauthentic identifications, remove them from the social bond, and force them to come alive and find new ways of communicating.[3] They can be compared to the similarly generative experience of the sense of bewilderment in Zen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_situation#:~:text=A%20limit%20situation%20(German%3A%20Grenzsituation,those%20arising%20from%20ordinary%20situations.
Deleted User March 29, 2022 at 19:37 #675280
Quoting 180 Proof
NB: Closer to the pragmatic sense of wu wei, I prefer ecstasy to the term "enlightenment".


While I enjoy and appreciate your description of ecstasy, I don't believe it's accurate to treat enlightenment and ecstasy as in any way interchangeable


I don't put much stock in notions of sudden, permanent enlightenment. For the spiritual seeker, ecstasy comes and goes. Enlightenment builds gradually over the lifespan - unless you have a special spiritual gift: a spiritual olympian.





Joshs March 29, 2022 at 19:45 #675282
Reply to Ciceronianus

Quoting Ciceronianus
we are filled with wonderment that things are in the world.
— ZzzoneiroCosm

Why, and when, would we wonder that things are in the world? What else would be "in the world"?


Heidegger believes that we dont simply experience a world, each of us produces a world. For each of us, all of the particular objects and events that we experience are interwoven as a totality of relevant relations. When we recognize an object as something , it is already familiar
to us at some level in its belonging to our larger pragmatic dealings with the world. From time to time , these overarching schemes by which we interpret our world undergo transformation. We re-frame the frame. When we do this , we wonder anew at the world, because now we look at all its particulars with fresh eyes. This is how science evolves, through such gestalt shifts in outlook.

Quoting Ciceronianus


But how do we shift from the everyday mode to the ontological mode?
— ZzzoneiroCosm

Why would anyone want to do that? To learn what, to know what, for what purpose?


Because this allows us to question our presuppositions that often imprison us.


Ciceronianus March 29, 2022 at 20:43 #675305
Quoting Joshs
Heidegger believes that we dont simply experience a world, each of us produces a world. For each of us, all of the particular objects and events that we experience are interwoven as a totality of relevant relations. When we recognize an object as something , it is already familiar
to us at some level in its belonging to our larger pragmatic dealings with the world. From time to time , these overarching schemes by which we interpret our world undergo transformation. We re-frame the frame. When we do this , we wonder anew at the world, because now we look at all its particulars with fresh eyes. This is how science evolves, through such gestalt shifts in outlook.


I don't think this constitutes wondering that there are things in the world, which seems more along the lines of "wondering why there is something rather than nothing." That's what my questions addressed, for what they're worth.
Joshs March 29, 2022 at 21:22 #675324
Reply to Ciceronianus Quoting Ciceronianus
I don't think this constitutes wondering that there are things in the world, which seems more along the lines of "wondering why there is something rather than nothing." That's what my questions addressed, for what they're worth.


Well, in of support your observation, Heidegger uses your wording rather than Yalom’s.

“For by nature, my friend, man's mind dwells in philosophy” (Plato, Phaedrus, 279a). So long as man exists, philosophizing of some sort occurs. Philosophy — what we call philosophy — is metaphysics getting under way, in which philosophy comes to itself and to its explicit tasks. Philosophy gets under way only by a peculiar insertion of our own existence into the fundamental possibilities of Dasein as a whole. For this insertion it is of decisive importance, first, that we allow space for beings as a whole; second, that we release ourselves into the nothing, which is to say, that we liberate ourselves from those idols everyone has and to which he is wont to go cringing; and finally, that we let the sweep of our suspense take its full course, so that it swings back into the basic question of metaphysics which the nothing itself compels: ‘Why are there beings at all, and why not rather nothing?( Heidegger, What is Metaphysics)
Mikie March 29, 2022 at 21:42 #675328
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
Heidegger spoke of two modes of existence: the everyday mode and the ontological mode.


I like Yalom a lot, but the link he finds to therapy is his own. The above wording isn't exactly right, either. The terms are ready-to-hand and present-at-hand modes of being. Both happen in our average everyday world, although it is argued that the ready-to-hand activities (especially our use of equipment) are primary.

What I think Yalom is doing is trying to take Heidegger and fit it into his often-discussed "here and now" emphasis of individual therapy. To not flee the fear of death, to look at oneself clearly, to put down everyday distractions and concerns. All that is fine, but links to Heidegger should be taken with a grain of salt.
Deleted User March 29, 2022 at 21:47 #675330
Quoting Xtrix
All that is fine, but links to Heidegger should be taken with a grain of salt.


Thanks for the insight. :smile:
jgill March 29, 2022 at 22:28 #675348
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
Heidegger spoke of two modes of existence


Only two? What of the mode of complete involvement with an action in which we lose sense of self and immerse in the flow? Is this part of one of the two modes? I wouldn't equate it with ecstasy, however.
Deleted User March 29, 2022 at 22:29 #675349
Quoting jgill
Only two? What of the mode of complete involvement with an action in which we lose sense of self and immerse in the flow? Is this part of one of the two modes? I wouldn't equate it with ecstasy, however.


The connection between ecstasy and flow is addressed here.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/12741/orgasm-ecstasy-and-flow-merleau-ponty
jgill March 29, 2022 at 22:38 #675355
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
The connection between ecstasy and flow is addressed here


Not sure about the connection. When I speak of flow in action I'm talking of the phenomenon that a one-time acquaintance, Mihály Csíkszentmihályi , defined years ago. We climbed at Devils Lake and he observed flow there I suspect, as well as in other forms of artistic athletics. Not ecstasy.
180 Proof March 30, 2022 at 03:35 #675417
Quoting ZzzoneiroCosm
The experience of a limit situation within the everday - this seems to be the very difference you claim the distinction lacks. A difference of experience.

A difference in – not "of" – experience. A difference in degree, for sure, not in kind as Heidegger proposes..

While I enjoy and appreciate your description of ecstasy, I don't believe it's accurate to treat enlightenment and ecstasy as in any way interchangeable.

You've misread what I wrote, Zzz. I do not claim or imply that they are "interchangeable", only that I prefer to use the term ecstasy instead of enlightenment to indicate non-ordinary states-of-mind/consciousness (re: limit-situations).

_db March 30, 2022 at 03:47 #675421
Reply to ZzzoneiroCosm

The only conjunction of wonderment and Heidegger that I know of is the wonderment that Heidegger continues to be worshiped as much as he is.
Deleted User March 30, 2022 at 03:55 #675426
Quoting 180 Proof
You've misread what I wrote, Zzz. I do not claim or imply that they are "interchangeable", only that I prefer to use the term ecstasy instead of enlightenment to indicate non-ordinary states-of-mind/consciousness (re: limit-situations).


Gotcha. :cool:

Tom Storm March 30, 2022 at 03:57 #675428
Quoting Xtrix
All that is fine, but links to Heidegger should be taken with a grain of salt.


Do you imagine Yalom is mistaken in his understanding of Heidegger, or is he being somewhat deceptive in order to add some kind of prestige to his model?
Agent Smith March 30, 2022 at 06:50 #675470
Quoting 180 Proof
By paying attention to, for instance, "the negligent and the insignificant" (J. Miller) – "the immensity of the particular" (G. Steiner) – to begin with. IME, Heidegger makes a distinction without a difference: the "ontological mode" corresponds to limit-situations (K. Jaspers) of "the everyday mode". To wit:
Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water.
— Zen K?an
NB: Closer to the pragmatic sense of wu wei, I prefer ecstasy to the term "enlightenment"


Everyday mode? Is that like a normal person's life? A set of ideas, a method à la Sherlock Holmes, simply put a compass for navigation in the ocean of life? Create a favorable mileu. Make roads.

Ontological mode: Forget all that stuff you learned in school, college, from friend, foes, family, etc, includes Heidegger's own teachings (?) and just immerse yourself in Being. The opposite of the feeling just die a**hole!, to make explicit, just live a**hole (still)!. Find a favorable mileu. Find roads.

:chin:

Agent Smith March 30, 2022 at 07:08 #675475
Quoting Tom Storm
model


Model? What model?! I don't want a model!! I want a super model!!! :lol: I hope s/he comes free!
Ciceronianus March 30, 2022 at 14:43 #675583
Quoting Joshs
‘Why are there beings at all, and why not rather nothing?(


I think "how" there is something may be an answerable question but one to be resolved, if at all, by science rather than by philosophy. "Why" can't even be considered until we know how.
Mikie March 30, 2022 at 18:39 #675663
Quoting Tom Storm
Do you imagine Yalom is mistaken in his understanding of Heidegger, or is he being somewhat deceptive in order to add some kind of prestige to his model?


I think he's taking some liberties and simplifying a little too much. But he's not completely wrong, in my view.