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My favorite philosophers of religion and theologians

Dermot Griffin March 25, 2022 at 13:50 6775 views 57 comments
Being a student of theology I obviously have a great interest in various figures in theology and the philosophy of religion and am curious to know who influences others. My major influences are as follows: St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Gregory Palamas, St. John of the Cross, John Wesley, Immanuel Kant, Soren Kierkegaard, St. John Henry Newman, Dietrich von Hildebrand, Jacques Maritain, Edith Stein, Fulton Sheen, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, Martin Buber, Maimonides, Nikolai Berdyaev, Vladimir Lossky, Sergei Bulgakov, Richard Swinburne, David Bentley Hart, Psuedo-Dionysius, John Scotus Eriugena, and Kitaro Nishida.

If I could narrow it down to three it would be Aquinas, Kierkegaard, and JPII.

Comments (57)

Shwah March 25, 2022 at 14:02 #673347
Reply to Dermot Griffin
I've never heard of Kant's philosophy of religion, do you know why it didn't have as much of an impact as Hegel's did?
How does kierk fit in there?
Dermot Griffin March 25, 2022 at 15:28 #673380
Reply to Shwah

I should say Kant’s transcendental theology. People seemed to be more interested in Kant for his ethical writings because that’s the brunt of his work. Hegel just so happened to gather a larger following because his work was extensive on religion. Kierkegaard wrote all about religion; he saw himself as a writer attempting to reintroduce Christianity into a culture that was rejecting it.
Fooloso4 March 25, 2022 at 15:34 #673383
I prefer the redemptive or ethical theology of Jewish thinkers such as Levinas and Kavka. The focus is on man rather than speculation about a divine being and a messiah who has or will save us. Messianic responsibility is ours. It is our task to redeem the world.

I also prefer to drop the metaphysical trappings.
Dermot Griffin March 25, 2022 at 16:23 #673404
Reply to Fooloso4

Forgot to mention that I like Levinas. And Kafka’s The Trial is a great book.
Angelo Cannata March 25, 2022 at 16:37 #673407
I have deep perplexity on the value of John Paul II as a philosopher or theologian. Before him, the fact that only men where admitted to priesthood was just a tradition in the Catholic Church; this means that there was some possibility to admit women to priesthood in the future: traditions can be changed. John Paul II changed this tradition into a dogma (see Ordinatio sacerdotalis), which means that it can never be changed in the future, because it must be considered an essential part of the infallible faith, infallible revelation. In other words, John Paul II closed, destroyed any possibility for women to be priests in the future.
The theological reasons for this decision are out of any human understanding: it is so just because it is so. They refer to the fact that Jesus was a man and his apostles were men; this way this theology decides to ignore the historical context, that instead is considered relevant in other cases. For example, the fact that Jesus had no properties was considered something historically limited to his person and not relevant to become a rule for the priests.
How can be considered valuable John Paul II as a theologian, considering that, by creating this dogma about the priesthood denied to women, he followed a theology lacking humanly understandable explanations?

In 1992 John Paul II promulgated the Catechism of the Catholic Church. In canon 2358 of the Catechism, homosexual tendencies are officially declared “objectively disordered”. This way homosexual people are publicly exposed to be treated differently from other people: it is said explicitly in the same canon: “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity”. What is wrong in homosexual people so that they deserve particular compassion, particular acceptance? What are the theological basis to explain these declarations? Who establishes what is objectively ordered and objectively disordered in nature? What are the criteria to establish it?
Fooloso4 March 25, 2022 at 17:15 #673413
Quoting Dermot Griffin
And Kafka’s The Trial is a great book.


Not Franz Kafka. Martin Kavka. Author of Jewish Messianism and the History of Philosophy.

No wiki entry but this will give you an idea of his work:

https://religion.fsu.edu/person/martin-kavka
Dermot Griffin March 25, 2022 at 17:20 #673415
Reply to Fooloso4

Ahhh, yes. I’ve heard of the book but never bothered to read it. I’ll have to look into it!
Shwah March 25, 2022 at 17:23 #673416
Reply to Dermot Griffin
I haven't studied his theology. I'm not a transcendentalist but I imagine it's unique.

Yeah kierk threw me off because he seems way more protestant than your other picks (in fact he could be an extremist protestant) so I was wondering how you reconciled them.
Dermot Griffin March 25, 2022 at 17:25 #673417
Reply to Angelo Cannata

While I totally understand your point I tend to like JPII because of his personalism, the belief that man is a unique being in the universe that has every right to be an individual. You must understand that his position regarding homosexuality was very liberal for the day; the pope’s prior to him didn’t bother preaching that gay people should be treated with compassion. People left the church because of JPII’s very true statement. As far as women clergy go I personally don’t care if the church did allow this. Before that happens we need to drop the clerical celibacy nonsense. This does not mean that a priest doesn’t have the right to be celibate it’s just that the Vatican mandates it and that’s something I just think is a problem. It should be a persons choice.
Fooloso4 March 25, 2022 at 17:28 #673418
Reply to Dermot Griffin

From the introduction to Jewish Messianism and the History of Philosophy

1. What is not? Everything that has not yet actualized its potential. Most viscerally, me.

2. What is meontology? The study of unmediated experiences of lack and privation. This study inaugurates self-critique and the realization that I live in a moment best described as not-yet. I thereby begin my path toward human perfection and toward God.

3. How do I live in this not-yet? In manic desire for what appears to me to be stable, for what displays a comfort in its own skin that I have never experienced. For you.

4. What is the effect of this desire? In the hope against hope that my desire will come to fulfillment, I keep you in mind, near me. I take care of you and work to engender political reforms that allow our conversation and relationship to perdure. I act to delay your death – even, perhaps, if this contributes to the skyrocketing proportion of the GDP taken up by the cost of medical care – and the death of your friends, and their friends, ad infinitum. In these brief moments when I break free of my narcissistic chains, I act messianically and redeem the world that is responsible for your suffering and your death, which will always be premature for me. I engender a world that my tradition (and perhaps yours) says God engenders, and I articulate my resemblance to God.


This argument makes a long journey from Athens to Jerusalem. It moves from a philosophy of nonbeing to the passionate faith in a redeemer still to come ... whom I represent. Indeed, the notion of a redeemer to come – the difference between Judaism and Christianity – cannot be defended without turning back to the analysis of nonbeing in the Greek philosophical tradition. Without Athens, Jerusalem (Judaism) risks being unable to articulate the meaning of its own religious practices, becoming no more than a set of customs divorced from their ultimate source, a sedimented series of rote actions that can create an identity for its practitioners only through the profane category of “culture.”

Dermot Griffin March 25, 2022 at 17:32 #673419
Reply to Shwah

I like to think that I am a Roman Catholic by denominational preference but an Eastern Orthodox Christian at heart. We of course have Byzantine rite churches in Catholicism and I’ve considered “switching” my rite (yes it is possible). Most Byzantine churches and Eastern Catholic churches in general act exactly like Orthodox churches: married priests, slightly different theology (more therapeutic than legalistic), different liturgy, an emphasis on the Church Fathers, and so on. The process seems to be pretty simple. You attend a Byzantine parish for 6 months to a year then write a letter to your bishop asking to switch. Of course you can’t write a hate letter about why the Roman Church is so messed up. That’s automatic rejection. One could just say “Go be Orthodox” but I don’t feel that I want to abandon my Catholic roots entirely. Still thinking on it but hopefully discerning this will cure me of a lot of anger that I have had built up towards the ”Latin” end of the church for a number of years despite my own personal piety.
Kuro March 25, 2022 at 19:03 #673432
Quoting Dermot Griffin
St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Gregory Palamas, St. John of the Cross, John Wesley, Immanuel Kant, Soren Kierkegaard, St. John Henry Newman, Dietrich von Hildebrand, Jacques Maritain, Edith Stein, Fulton Sheen, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, Martin Buber, Maimonides, Nikolai Berdyaev, Vladimir Lossky, Sergei Bulgakov, Richard Swinburne, David Bentley Hart, Psuedo-Dionysius, John Scotus Eriugena, and Kitaro Nishida.


You definitely should check out Avicenna there if you're a fan of Aquinas, a good chunk of Islamic philosophy influenced Scholastic philosophy.

As for the later period, like Leibniz and what not, they got their access to that tradition through Ibn Tufail's novel which investigated some of the problems in epistemology that later became the focus of that era of philosophy
180 Proof March 25, 2022 at 19:55 #673450
Reply to Dermot Griffin
Raised and educated Roman Catholic, then apostate in my middle teens, and finally unbeliever^^ (freethinker) over four decades since, here are many of the theologians (metaphysicians) and philosophers of religion – who confront "the divine" – from which I've learned a great deal:

Laozi
The Buddha
Aeschylus, Sophlocles, Euripides
Kohelet (Solomon?)
Epicurus
Hillel the Elder
Lucretius
Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite
John Scotus Eriugena
Adi Shankara
Ibn Rushd
Maimonides
William of Ockham
Benedictus de Spinoza
David Hume
Thomas Paine
Ludwig Feuerbach
Arthur Schopenhauer
Friedrich Nietzsche
Martin Buber
Karl Jaspers
Gabriel Marcel
Mircea Eliade
(Howard Phillips Lovecraft)
Gershom Scholem
Hans Jonas
Kitaro Nishida
(Georges Bataille)
Emmanuel Levinas
"Gora" aka Goparaju Ramachandra Rao
Thomas J. J. Altizer
Howard Thurman
Walter Kaufmann
Gustavo Gutiérrez
Abraham Joshua Heschel
Paul Tillich
Iris Murdoch
(René Girard)
(George Steiner)
(Ernest Becker)
(Hans Peter Duerr)
(Irvin Yalom)
Elaine Pagels
Don Cupitt

edit:

antitheist religious skeptic^^
_db March 25, 2022 at 22:01 #673489
Reply to Dermot Griffin I'm curious, what are your thoughts on the resurgence of neo-scholasticism in the philosophy of religion? I remember a few years ago everyone was raving about people like Feser, though I haven't followed up with the trend for a while.
EugeneW March 25, 2022 at 23:24 #673515
I prefer my own theology. My being was prepared as it were, to receive a message from the eternal infinite heavens where the godkinds played their divine games already eternally.
EugeneW March 25, 2022 at 23:26 #673516
Quoting 180 Proof
unbeliever (freethinker)


As if these two are the same... :sparkle:
EugeneW March 25, 2022 at 23:27 #673517
Quoting 180 Proof
philosophers of religion – who confront "the divine"


And how they know what that even is?
EugeneW March 25, 2022 at 23:29 #673518
Reply to Dermot Griffin

Did Nietzsche believe in gods? Or only in a dead one?
EugeneW March 25, 2022 at 23:38 #673521
From Wikipedia:

This is a list of philosophers of religion.

God

As the first in the row. Remarkable...
180 Proof March 26, 2022 at 03:13 #673593
Reply to EugeneW Though it is possible for one to be an unbeliever while not a freethinker (this is usually the case), I cannot see how a freethinker is not also an unbeliever insofar as [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought]freethought warrants unbelief.

Reply to EugeneW Try something new, lil D-Ker: actually read one or more of their works. :worry:
180 Proof March 26, 2022 at 03:17 #673597
[delete post]
EugeneW March 26, 2022 at 07:22 #673637
Reply to 180 Proof

I've read the very first in the row! The gods. What use are the others still?
EugeneW March 26, 2022 at 07:28 #673639
Quoting 180 Proof
cannot see how a freethinker is not also an unbeliever insofar as freethought warrants unbelief.


Then you're not a real freethinker. Freethought warrants unbelief? Why's that? You think gods oblige? That only creation from pure chance offers freedom?

Agent Smith March 26, 2022 at 07:43 #673641
Quoting 180 Proof
confront "the divine"


:fire:

Confront! Explain yourself, God/priest/cohen/mullah/lama or whoever the hell you are!

Words, words are all I have, to take your heart away...

Kant wished to interrogate, as opposed to converse with, nature. We should adopt a similar line, God has a lot of explainin' to do, ja?

Right now, I don't wanna be in god's shoes!
EugeneW March 26, 2022 at 08:12 #673652
Quoting Agent Smith
God has a lot of explainin' to do, ja


No, Agent my love. It's us who should explain. The apology should be ours. BTW, you roll the cigarettes yourself?
Agent Smith March 26, 2022 at 08:41 #673666
Quoting EugeneW
No, Agent my love. It's us who should explain. The apology should be ours. BTW, you roll the cigarettes yourself?


Why would we need to do the explaining? We had no hand in creation. Is it possible to be good when the way the game has been designed is such a way as to invariably lead to situations that can only be fully described as aut neca aut necare (either kill/harm/maim or be killed/harmed/maimed)?

Goodness is impossible given the way the world is and how it works. There's not enough to go around for everybody if you know what I mean; war and its milder variants (a tiff that on most occasions spirals outta control) are inevitable. To make matters worse, going by the headlines in the media, the conditions aren't exactly improving.

That said, the brain/the mind is a powerful organ. If we, when we, use it well, magic!

As for cigarettes, mine are pre-rolled (by a machine hopefully, I'm fascinated by machines it seems), in packets of 10 (cheaper, deadlier).
EugeneW March 26, 2022 at 09:01 #673673
Quoting Agent Smith
Why would we need to do the explaining?


Just take a good lookaround. That's not how heaven looks like. Instead, the homonid carbon copies of the homonid-gods did some damned intensive rearranging. Paradis lost. If only god-kind didn't overlook them when they worked on the right stuff. Enthusiasm and craving to escape the collective feeling of existential emptiness, felt in the whole of eternal and infinite heaven, was too overwhelming. No real attention was given to the homonid-gods. To their squiblings and squackeleries. For that they might be to blame
180 Proof March 26, 2022 at 09:43 #673682
Reply to EugeneW If you don't agree with the wiki article summary of the freethought tradition which I have linked in my previous post, then we're not talking about the same thing. I consider myself a freethinker regardless of what you cannot understanding, lil non-thinker (troll).
Agent Smith March 26, 2022 at 10:04 #673687
Reply to 180 Proof

Clifford's Principle

[quote= William Kingdon Clifford]It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.[/quote]
Agent Smith March 26, 2022 at 10:09 #673688
User image

[quote=Wikipedia]The pansy serves as the long-established and enduring symbol of free thought; literature of the American Secular Union inaugurated its usage in the late 1800s. The reasoning behind the pansy as the symbol of free thought lies both in the flower's name and in its appearance. The pansy derives its name from the French word pensée, which means "thought". It allegedly received this name because the flower is perceived by some to bear resemblance to a human face, and in mid-to-late summer it nods forward as if deep in thought.[/quote]
EugeneW March 26, 2022 at 10:19 #673692
Reply to 180 Proof

Acting in line with a tradition, bigbooze, is already proof your freedom is in a sweet slavery submissive state. Be my guest! :razz:
EugeneW March 26, 2022 at 10:20 #673693
William Kingdon Clifford:It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.


Wrong!
180 Proof March 26, 2022 at 10:27 #673699
William Kingdon Clifford:It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.

A vital touchstone since my adolescence ... :fire:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tXsxvdF481I
[i]When you believe in things
that you don't understand
then you suffer ...[/i]


Reply to Agent Smith Yes, incorporated into my own sigil :death: :flower: (i.e. memento mori, memento vivere).

Agent Smith March 26, 2022 at 10:31 #673701
Reply to 180 Proof :death: :flower: Now I get it! Death and Life.
EugeneW March 26, 2022 at 10:42 #673706
Wikipedia:the flower is perceived by some to bear resemblance to a human face, and in mid-to-late summer it nods forward as if deep in thought.


Just look at the facial expression. Something obstructs, obfuscates, clearly... What can it be? :starstruck:
180 Proof March 26, 2022 at 10:46 #673707
mono no aware
Quoting Agent Smith
Death and Life


amor fati
EugeneW March 26, 2022 at 10:48 #673708
Quoting 180 Proof
A vital touchstone


If that's a vital touchstone for you, I won't remove it. Your world would collapse. I prefer the sweet security of the spicey divine lickstone.
Agent Smith March 26, 2022 at 10:51 #673711
:broken:
180 Proof March 26, 2022 at 10:53 #673712
Quoting EugeneW
I won't remove it.

Sapere aude. I dare you to try, Mr D-K. :point:
Agent Smith March 26, 2022 at 11:04 #673718
My favorite theologian is Frederic Brown (1906 - 1972)

Short Story: The Answer (Frederic Brown, 1954)

[i]Dwar Ev ceremoniously soldered the final connection with gold. The eyes of a dozen television cameras watched him and the sub-ether bore through the universe a dozen pictures of what he was doing.

He straightened and nodded to Dwar Reyn, then moved to a position beside the switch that would complete the contact when he threw it. The switch that would connect, all at once, all of the monster computing machines of all the populated planets in the universe – ninety-six billion planets – into the super-circuit that would connect them all into the one super-calculator, one cybernetics machine that would combine all the knowledge of all the galaxies.

Dwar Reyn spoke briefly to the watching and listening trillions. Then, after a moment’s silence, he said, “Now, Dwar Ev.”

Dwar Ev threw the switch. There was a mighty hum, the surge of power from ninety-six billion planets. Lights flashed and quieted along the miles-long panel.

Dwar Ev stepped back and drew a deep breath. “The honor of asking the first question is yours, Dwar Reyn.”

“Thank you,” said Dwar Reyn. “It shall be a question that no single cybernetics machine has been able to answer.”

He turned to face the machine. “Is there a God?”

The mighty voice answered without hesitation, without the clicking of single relay.

“Yes, now there is a God.”

Sudden fear flashed on the face of Dwar Ev. He leaped to grab the switch.

A bolt of lightning from the cloudless sky struck him down and fused the switch shut.[/i]

[quote=Voltaire]If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.[/quote]

[quote=Mikhail Bakunin]If God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish Him.[/quote]

The Supreme Fascist! That's what Paul Erd?s, Hungarian mathematician, called God.[s]What do we do with fascists?[/s] What did we do to fascists?

:confused:


Reply to 180 Proof :up: More!
180 Proof March 26, 2022 at 11:23 #673725
Reply to Agent Smith :clap: :strong: :sweat: An oldie but goodie!
[quote=ST TOS, s1e18]"Kirk to Enterprise. Red Alert! Cestus Three has been destroyed."[/quote]
\\//_ :nerd:
Agent Smith March 26, 2022 at 11:26 #673729
EugeneW March 26, 2022 at 11:29 #673732
Quoting 180 Proof
I dare you to try, Mr D-K.


To try what bigbooze? To prove your thinking is not free?
180 Proof March 26, 2022 at 11:32 #673735
Reply to EugeneW I even quoted you for context. Are you that obtuse? (Oh wait, just trolling again.)
EugeneW March 26, 2022 at 11:43 #673742
Reply to 180 Proof

Where you quoted me fellow troll bigbooze? To take up the stone? Its a light one.
EugeneW March 26, 2022 at 11:56 #673745
Quoting Agent Smith
The Supreme Fascist! That's what Paul Erd?s, Hungarian mathematician, called God.


Being a mathematical ratio fascist himself that comes as no surprise. Clash of the titans. Difference being, good old Paul is no real titan. Just a confused thinker translating the universal language into his limited symbolics and numerology, assigning meaning to numbers and creating silly formula and spells to play with them in infinite vector spaces and Lie algebras introducing Lie brackets or derivatives. But if it rocks his boat. Let him rock in peace! He dont need no lullaby!
Dermot Griffin March 26, 2022 at 13:00 #673775
Reply to _db

If we’re defining Neo-Scholasticism as the revival of medieval Christian philosophy then I personally don’t see a problem with it; I’m currently writing my thesis on St. Thomas Aquinas in comparison to Soren Kierkegaard. Neo-Thomism, however, I take issue with. I can’t stand philosophers from this framework who argue from the perspective of “If St. Thomas and the Vatican don’t consign your statement then your statement is false.” This is a limiting tradition that mocks what Thomism is all about. I’m not a Thomist, however; I don’t believe that we can know God’s essence but we can know Him via His energies (i.e. Palamism).

Reply to Kuro

I love Avicenna. There’s so many others that I could’ve listed but if I did that I’d be typing all day. I recently read a fascinating article about Avicenna and medieval Franciscans on the concept of beauty. Don’t know if I can attach pdf’s on here but I’ll play around and attempt to send it.
BohdanZ March 27, 2022 at 03:40 #674081
GK Chesterton is not conventional philosopher/theologian, but did apologetic work for Catholicism and Christianity in general. He was famous as author of paradoxical detective stories and other books. I would say (roughly) that he created characters obsessed with ideas or ideologies(like, character is personification of idea). And then he shows how true religious worldview is the best way of thinking. Like in popular stories about Father Brown (who plays role of detective). Because it is like his faith make him think better than a crime does).
Agent Smith March 27, 2022 at 04:28 #674089
character is personification of idea


:smile: :up: Isn't that the way it really is? Real people tend be an assortment of ideas - the objective then seems to be not truth, rather coherence, purging one's worldview of inconsistencies (contradictions).

No one should object to your theism so long as you, simultaneously, don't deny the existence of angels and demons, heaven and hell, souls and spirits.
BohdanZ March 27, 2022 at 05:23 #674103
Reply to Agent Smith well, real people have bodies also :nerd: .
Agent Smith March 27, 2022 at 05:25 #674104
Quoting BohdanZ
well, real people have bodies also .


That's what personfication means, bodies are implicit in that concept.
BohdanZ March 27, 2022 at 05:31 #674106
Reply to Agent Smith no, talking about Chesterton, he wrote fiction literature, personification is a term from literature theory here, not from philosophy.
Agent Smith March 27, 2022 at 05:32 #674107
Quoting BohdanZ
no, talking about Chesterton, he wrote fiction literature, personification is a term from literature theory here, not from philosophy.


We can co-opt concepts when it makes sense, oui?
BohdanZ March 27, 2022 at 05:35 #674108
Reply to Agent Smith does it? :smile:
Agent Smith March 27, 2022 at 05:45 #674109
Quoting BohdanZ
does it? :smile:


It does (to me). People are identified by their ideas; he's a theist, she's a physicalist, that guy over there is a nihilist, that girl, a realist, so on and so forth.

:chin:
EugeneW March 27, 2022 at 07:57 #674137
Quoting Agent Smith
Yes, now there is a God.”


I recently, how coincidentally, saw scientists claiming that we are creations of the alien superdooperdeluxe intelligent race. They have established links between all planets and all life on Earth is a giant simulation created by these new gods.
These scientists were probably frustrated about their scientific status. Yearning for gods while trying to stick to their limited science. Where has the world come to?
180 Proof March 28, 2022 at 17:23 #674761
Addendum to my list Reply to 180 Proof is George Carlin:

:death: :flower: