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Zen & The Bible

Agent Smith March 12, 2022 at 18:02 5025 views 32 comments
Zen koans are short stories, one liners, questions, etc. that are paradoxical in nature. A (famous) sample: What is the sound of one hand clapping? Koans are, in my view, logic bombs designed to go off inside your head and induce what in the West is known as analysis paralysis. The objective: mushin no shin (mind without mind).

The Bible, as per atheists and even theists, is chocablock with contradictions. Dan Barker, an atheist ex-priest, illustrates this by saying that the Bible, from the first page to the last, amounts to saying "married bachelor!"

Question: Is the Biblia Sacra one long frigging Zen koan?

Comments (32)

baker March 12, 2022 at 18:26 #666074
Quoting Agent Smith
Question: Is the Biblia Sacra one long frigging Zen koan?


If it would be advertised and classifiy itself as a logico-philosophical tractatus, then, perhaps.

But it is not and it does no such thing. It's a collection of witness testimonies, tribal histories, personal histories, didactic aphorisms, poetry, prophecies, mystic visions, ... Which makes it clear that its genre is definitely not that of a logico-philosophical tractatus and that it shouldn't be read as such.
Agent Smith March 12, 2022 at 22:37 #666170
Reply to baker Why shoulldn't the Biblia Sacra be considered a(n) (unsually long) Zen koan? If I were a Zen master ( :smile: ), I would tell my pupils/disciples/students to go read the Bible and get back to me once they've understood it ( :naughty: ). There's probably a Koan on every page of the Good book - some crude, others subtle, nevertheless paradoxes, paradoxes, and paradoxes.

baker March 15, 2022 at 04:03 #667147
Quoting Agent Smith
Why shoulldn't the Biblia Sacra be considered a(n) (unsually long) Zen koan?


Because it is not advertised as one and it does not classifiy itself as a Zen koan.

Nor is it advertised or does is classify itself as a logico-philosophical tractatus. (If it did, then we would be justified to expect a rigid internal consistency from it, at the very minimum.)
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 04:06 #667149
Quoting baker
Because it is not advertised as one and it does not classifiy itself as a Zen koan.

Nor is it advertised or does is classify itself as a logico-philosophical tractatus. (If it did, then we would be justified to expect a rigid internal consistency from it, at the very minimum.)


Not all companies advertize their products: 6 Top Brands that don't advertize (much) are still ridiculously famous
baker March 15, 2022 at 04:12 #667152
Reply to Agent Smith What does advertizing and fame have to do with the genre of a text?
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 04:14 #667155
Quoting baker
What does advertizing and fame have to do with the genre of a text?


Well, you brought it up! Shouldn't you be the one telling me?

:chin:
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 04:15 #667156
@baker

There were people (mostly Christian monks) who believed that Taoism (one arm of Zen that kickstarted the whole Koan aspect of Zen) is a Christian sect.

3 facets of the Tao

1. Yi: Subtle
2. Shi: Faint
3. Wei: Elusive

Yi-Shi-Wei: Yahweh
baker March 15, 2022 at 04:27 #667165
Reply to Agent Smith I'm talking about the genre of a text, and your apparent inability to recognize it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 04:28 #667167
Quoting baker
I'm talking about the genre of a text, and your apparent inability to recognize it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genre


What do you mean genre? I thought we were discussing advertizement.
baker March 15, 2022 at 04:35 #667177
Reply to Agent Smith That's why Odin invented links!

Edited for missing word.
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 04:36 #667179
Quoting baker
That's Odin invented links!


Sorry, I don't follow.
baker March 15, 2022 at 04:47 #667184
Genre. Do read up on it. It should answer our OP question.
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 05:26 #667195
Quoting baker
Genre. Do read up on it. It should answer our OP question.


I do agree that the Biblia Sacra isn't officially classified as a Zen tome, but there's no hard and fast rule that says books in one genre can't contain material on another subject.

Then there's the problem of not knowing - people who did the categorization may have been ignorant of a book's original intent/purpose.
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 05:30 #667197
If a reasonably intelligent person like Dan Barker can reduce the Good Book to one phrase "married bachelor", it's obvious that the Bible is one big contradiction from cover to cover! Exactly the kind of treatise a Zen master/Taoist would like to get his hands on to mystify his/her students!
baker March 15, 2022 at 05:56 #667204
I wonder what Barker thinks about cookbooks. Maybe he just barks about them.
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 06:02 #667209
Quoting baker
I wonder what Barker thinks about cookbooks. Maybe he just barks about them.


He (Dan Barker) has in depth knowledge of the Bible. He was a priest for 2 decades if you must know. Don't dismiss his findings so flippantly.
baker March 15, 2022 at 06:39 #667217
Quoting Agent Smith
Don't dismiss his findings so flippantly.


It's entirely in place to dismiss the remarks of someone who has presumably devoted decades of his life to something, but who then made a flippant remark to the effect of [quote="Agent Smith;d12647"t]he Bible, from the first page to the last, amounts to saying "married bachelor!"[/quote]

baker March 15, 2022 at 06:40 #667219
Quoting Agent Smith
Exactly the kind of treatise a Zen master/Taoist would like to get his hands on to mystify his/her students!


Why mystify??
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 06:41 #667220
Quoting baker
Why mystify??


[quote=Dr. Lanning]That, my friend, is the right question.[/quote]

Any ideas?
baker March 15, 2022 at 06:44 #667221
Reply to Agent Smith You used the word first.
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 06:44 #667222
Quoting baker
It's entirely in place to dismiss the remarks of someone who has presumably devoted decades of his life to something, but who then made a flippant remark to the effect of


It's obvious that you aren't acquainted with Dan Barker's mission and work.
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 06:45 #667223
Quoting baker
You used the word first.


Yep but I'd like to hear what you havta say.
baker March 15, 2022 at 09:10 #667269
Reply to Agent Smith One is fully capable of overcoming one's idle fascination with paradoxes and mysteries.

Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 10:19 #667284
Quoting baker
One is fully capable of overcoming one's idle fascination with paradoxes and mysteries.


So you think!
EugeneW March 15, 2022 at 10:47 #667293
Quoting Agent Smith
mushin no shin (mind without mind).


This state can be achieved by meditation, so it seems. Shut off thinking and focus on the central red pearl. Thinking fades. Sounds and visions fade. The body fades. What remains is the red pearl of pure shin, the pure mind, without the extra bagage of the other hand. The flash without the smoking pistol...
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 10:52 #667300
Reply to EugeneW Yes, look at the red pearl. Is it red? Is it a pearl? Are you looking? What is looking? Go turn off the gas, you numskull!
EugeneW March 15, 2022 at 11:15 #667320
Reply to Agent Smith

:lol:

Reality kicking in... Thoughts can't be prevented. Although... there seems to be a way. Concentrate on the red pearl. Thoughts might fade away, sound and vision conflate into an amorphous blob of black. The noise of gas subsides. The lighter isn't noticed. The bang of explosion will be your last. Gone in a blaze of thoughtless but mindful glory.
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 14:38 #667368
Quoting EugeneW
Reality kicking in... Thoughts can't be prevented. Although... there seems to be a way. Concentrate on the red pearl. Thoughts might fade away, sound and vision conflate into an amorphous blob of black. The noise of gas subsides. The lighter isn't noticed. The bang of explosion will be your last. Gone in a blaze of thoughtless but mindful glory.


:lol: That's how a typical day at a Zen monastery must be like, eh?
EugeneW March 15, 2022 at 14:47 #667371
Quoting Agent Smith
That's how a typical day at a Zen monastery must be like, eh?


Yes! That's why there are less and less monasteries. At the same time it could explain the mysterious sounds heard in the Himalayas once in a while...
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 14:59 #667376
Quoting EugeneW
Yes! That's why there are less and less monasteries. At the same time it could explain the mysterious sounds heard in the Himalayas once in a while...


:sweat: What people are willing to do trying to solve the problem of death...suffering...which is it? Let's all build this monastery, wear robes, tonsure ourselves, mumble mantras, and confuse the hell out of each other.
EugeneW March 15, 2022 at 15:02 #667380
Quoting Agent Smith
What people are willing to do trying to solve the problem of death...suffering...which is it? Let's all build this monastery, wear robes, tonsure ourselves, mumble mantras, and confuse the hell out of each other.


A sensible idea! :rofl:
Agent Smith March 15, 2022 at 15:03 #667381
Quoting EugeneW
A sensible idea! :rofl:


:smile: