You are viewing the historical archive of The Philosophy Forum.
For current discussions, visit the live forum.
Go to live forum

How can we reliably get to knowledge?

Cidat March 04, 2022 at 15:27 5725 views 31 comments
When can we be said to know something, and how should we reliably construct and justify beliefs?

Justified True Belief has been refuted by the Gettier problems - cases where one has a justified true belief, that is not knowledge. (For example, you see an animal on a field and believe it's a sheep, so you form the belief that there is a sheep in the field, though it's actually a dog, and further away on the field there is another animal that happens to be a sheep. So there was a sheep on the field, but the animal you saw that justified that belief was not a sheep.) A suggested solution is the Infallibility Proposal, which leaves science people unsatisfied because it rules out science as a basis for knowledge.

Comments (31)

T Clark March 04, 2022 at 19:58 #662964
Quoting Cidat
When can we be said to know something, and how should we reliably construct and justify beliefs?


To me, Justified True Belief, including the Gettier problems, shed no light on how people actually come to know things. What follows is something I wrote in a recent thread on pragmatic epistemology. It isn't a very popular view, but I thought I'd add it to the discussion.

For me, my experience as an environmental engineer lays the groundwork for how to see knowledge. You start with data - unprocessed observations, measurements, counts, photographs, and recordings. The data is then processed to be put in a more usable form, e.g. tabulation, graphing, and statistical analysis, what we call information. Information does not become knowledge until it has been further processed to be put in the context of a conceptual model of conditions of interest. Conceptual models are not true or false, they are accurate or inaccurate.

This is a simplified description of a more complex process, but I think it gets the point across. The process described is iterative. Development of a conceptual model raises new questions, which sends us back to the beginning of the process.
Deleted User March 04, 2022 at 20:35 #662977
A mixture of Correspondence and Coherence
Average March 04, 2022 at 21:27 #662993
Quoting Garrett Travers
A mixture of Correspondence and Coherence


Interesting
Deleted User March 04, 2022 at 21:28 #662995
Reply to Average

Put some thought to it.
Average March 04, 2022 at 21:36 #662997
Reply to Garrett Travers The only problem is I’m not sure that you’re answering the question. My answer to the question of how can we reliably get knowledge would be through the use of spies or Espionage. LoL
Deleted User March 04, 2022 at 21:38 #662998
Quoting Average
through the use of spies or Espionage


That's pretty much the same thing in a different wrapper. The method is what I'm highlighting, not how the method is employed. But, what exactly do you mean by this, lol?
Average March 04, 2022 at 21:44 #663001
Reply to Garrett Travers What part is unclear? I’m happy to provide clarification but first I need to know what needs to be clarified.
Deleted User March 04, 2022 at 21:44 #663002
Quoting Average
what needs to be clarified.


Specifically spies and espionage.
Average March 04, 2022 at 21:51 #663006
“Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, nor by any deductive calculation. Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men.”
Average March 04, 2022 at 21:52 #663007
Reply to Garrett Travers “Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, nor by any deductive calculation. Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men.”
Deleted User March 04, 2022 at 21:56 #663011
Quoting Average
Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men.”


Distributed cognition, then?
Average March 04, 2022 at 21:59 #663012
Quoting Garrett Travers
Distributed cognition, then?


I don’t think that the ideas of Edwin Hutchins are what I have in mind.
Deleted User March 04, 2022 at 22:00 #663014
Quoting Average
I don’t think that the ideas of Edwin Hutchins are what I have in mind.


Then what can one mean by "only be obtained from other men?"
Average March 04, 2022 at 22:02 #663016
Reply to Garrett Travers Maybe I just don’t understand the concept of distributed cognition. Would you mind giving me a short summary?
Average March 04, 2022 at 22:26 #663023
Quoting Garrett Travers
Then what can one mean by "only be obtained from other men?"


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DA0WJkysRmM
Deleted User March 04, 2022 at 22:34 #663026
Reply to Average

....... Is this supposed to be serving a purpose?
Average March 04, 2022 at 22:36 #663027
Reply to Garrett Travers I’m just having fun. No malicious intent. I thought you wanted an example of what I meant by “obtaining from other men”.
Deleted User March 04, 2022 at 22:38 #663028
Quoting Average
I’m just having fun. No malicious intent. I thought you wanted an example of what I meant by “obtaining from other men”.


lol, you're ridiculous. I thought I was about to see some mind blowing shit. But, while we're at it, have you ever heard this song? If not check out those lyrics from, like, 1920'sish I think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7NJ9ylAhos

Average March 04, 2022 at 22:47 #663031
Reply to Garrett Travers I enjoyed the listen.
Deleted User March 04, 2022 at 22:54 #663037
Quoting Average
I enjoyed the listen.


One of my favorites.
Average March 05, 2022 at 02:01 #663089
Quoting Cidat
When can we be said to know something, and how should we reliably construct and justify beliefs?


We can be said to know something when we have irrefutable proof that it is correct. A belief can be justified if it is necessarily the case.
Philosophim March 05, 2022 at 15:54 #663240
I completed a reliable method of knowledge here that I use in my day to day life. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/9015/a-methodology-of-knowledge
Cuthbert March 07, 2022 at 17:25 #664032
Quoting Cidat
Justified True Belief has been refuted by the Gettier problems


Has it? I thought Gettier drew attention to vagueness around the concept 'justification'. Something that counts as justification in one context may fail to do so in another. Looking like a barn is usually enough for something to qualify as a barn. In Fake Barn Country, looking like a barn is not enough to count as justification. Mistaking a dog for a sheep is not enough to justify a belief that there's a sheep in the field; even though, if it had been a sheep, it would have been enough. So what is enough? It's tricky. But Gettier doesn't refute JTB. Just gets us to think more about J.
Agent Smith March 10, 2022 at 13:37 #665102
What if knowledge gets to us?

We seem to be under the (false?) impression that knowledge is static/passive, that it just sits there, motionless, waiting so to speak, for someone to come and "pick it up".

Memes, knowledge is memetic (oui?), are active i.e. they exhibit intentionality, like all life - they seek hosts to multiply in and mutate under selection pressure, transforming themselves into powerful ideas that then metastasize, like malignancies, infecting the whole of humanity. I hope the relationship is symbiotic, fingers crossed.

I'd like to do a study on how many people have fought/died for (an idea).

Sorry, rambling. Do forgive me, if you can.
EugeneW March 10, 2022 at 21:01 #665249
Quoting Agent Smith
Memes, knowledge is memetic (oui?), are active i.e. they exhibit intentionality, like all life - they seek hosts to multiply in and mutate under selection pressure, transforming themselves into powerful ideas that then metastasize, like malignancies, infecting the whole of humanity. I hope the relationship is symbiotic, fingers crossed.


That relationship depends on the idea and the ideas used by the majority and the people these ideas blossom in. I have done some research on this about two particular ideas in physics. I asked why the ideas of preons, hidden variables, and black holes as dark matter are unpopular in physics (while having the potential to solve many fundamental problems). The usual irrational reactions. Closing of the question without any good reason why. It's the way the majority thinks that counts. Deviating ideas should be avoided or wiped under the carpet. I don't like this feature which ideas have given to their hosts in order to secure themselves.
Agent Smith March 11, 2022 at 01:21 #665397
Reply to EugeneW

May the [s]best[/s] strongest man win!

Strength in numbers.

Who, in their right mind, will [s]want to[/s] dare to contradict a frenzied mob of armed men (women and children) screaming for blood!
EugeneW March 11, 2022 at 04:19 #665429
Quoting Agent Smith
Memes, knowledge is memetic (oui?), are active i.e. they exhibit intentionality, like all life -


Memes are screaming for procreation like genes? A curious case, dear Watson...
Agent Smith March 11, 2022 at 04:28 #665430
Quoting EugeneW
Memes are screaming for procreation like genes? A curious case, dear Watson...


That's about it.
EugeneW March 11, 2022 at 05:07 #665436
No genes or memes, nor God or laws of nature, can tell me what to do or how to think.
I like sushi March 11, 2022 at 09:12 #665489
Quoting Cidat
When can we be said to know something, and how should we reliably construct and justify beliefs?


The ‘answer’ is in the ‘question’. Why do you seek such ‘knowledge’.

In more explicit terms ‘knowledge’ is defined by the limitations it is bound by. If we can question something in some way then it is ‘knowledge’/‘known’. That which we do not and cannot ever question is not ‘known’/‘knowledge’.
Philosophim March 12, 2022 at 20:46 #666135
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/9015/a-methodology-of-knowledge/p1 if you are interested in a serious but not technically difficult approach.