Are we responsible for our own thoughts?
I am not sure if we are but I would like to know.
How does a thought come into our consciousness? Are we being creative and thoughtful or is our brain feeding us ideas or something else?
What is the process of rumination?
I do feel somewhat in control of my thoughts in the mental or conscious landscape. I feel like I am monitoring my inner life and trying to exert control and making choices.
How does a thought come into our consciousness? Are we being creative and thoughtful or is our brain feeding us ideas or something else?
What is the process of rumination?
I do feel somewhat in control of my thoughts in the mental or conscious landscape. I feel like I am monitoring my inner life and trying to exert control and making choices.
Comments (52)
Thoughts at times insist with the adamance of matter. Of course, thoughts are more fluid. But they can crescendo to the repetitive insistence of the killing floor.
Intentional interruption of a repetitious thought pattern can unbalance and ultimately restructure or resituate the pattern. Say, a more desirable, a more pleasure-inducing rut. But repetition seems to be a thing the mind enjoys. (Compare with Freud's death drive and the native lust for repetition in Beyond the Pleasure Principle.)
The mind at large can be tamed via meditative practice. The result is a pleasanter thought-world and far less rumination. A new, less anxiety-centered relation of self and thought.
One can't decide what to think, but we can, it seems, decide whether to act out our/those thoughts or not. There seems to be a filter of sorts (between thoughts and actions) and the "mesh" that does the actual filtering is made up of, inter alia, our values. Some of us have good quality "meshes", others have broken ones, some don't have one at all.
Is the logical theory that we're capable of step by step linear reasoning, moving from some propositions (premises) to other propositions (conclusions), a myth?
Do you think your brain is something other than you? I am my body, my brain. What my brain thinks, I think.
Many of the brain's activities are not conscious. All the physical regulating that the CNS carries out is done outside of consciousness. Some parts of the brain are manageable, controllable; some parts are not. One morning I might wake up awash in feelings of despair, angst, and anxiety. my brain may direct my feet and hands to a bottle of benzodiazepines (for immediate relief) and a bottle of SSRIs for longer term relief.
I could spend the rest of th day ruminating (chewing over and re-chewing) all the reasons why life is unsatisfactory. I could get on the bike and go for a long ride. The latter would probably br more effective than the former, in terms of me feeling better.
I, you, can decide to think some thoughts, or so we believe. One day I decided to learn French. I started, but found it tedious so I stopped, I am responsible for that, as far as I can tell, I spend much of my day reading, I am responsible for that. Various Amazon algorithms help me find books to consider, but I have to decide to buy them.
The One Click feature is Amazon's way of extracting payment before I have had time to change my mind, like one does when one puts the book in the cart first. I like to put clothing in the Landsend cart and then not buy it, I get the pleasure of picking things out but not the cost of buying it. Merchants hate it when that happens. That's why Amazon invented [i]One Click[/I].
Much of the content of our minds was put there before we had control over our environment. All kinds of things get dumped into children's minds, along with language, a basic understanding of the world, and so on, If we have had garbage dumped in our heads, and if we think garbagy thoughts, that just proves "garbage in, garbage out."
So we are responsible for some of our thoughts, but not all.
Are you sure about that? It never works for me and I daresay there are others like me who're in the same boat so to speak.
:chin: That doesn't make sense to me. How do I know you're not misreading me or, more accurately, projecting your own thoughts on my text? Pareidolia/Apophenia? :grin:
Rule following paradox (re Ludwig Wittgentein)? The pattern, though it extends for both us, it does so divergently - soon we'll experience a break down in communications as my rule and yours, up until now in agreement, go their separate ways.
What does Beckett say?
We are responsible only for our words and our actions.
Our thoughts can't be controlled and many times are forced to us via society, environment, the way we grew up, friends etc etc. We have no reason to feel guilty about our thoughts, despite how crazy or sinful they might seem. Unfortunately though,that guilt plays a crucial role for many people who develop mental disorders.
We can't tame them, neither we generate them on our own. We are on charge though to which of those thoughts we will turn into words and actions. We are responsible only when we "pull the trigger". Then yes.
Miscommunication (therefore misunderstanding) between people is inescapable ... I guess?
But in that responsibility, we think.
[i]I must go on; I can’t go on; I must go on; I must say words as long as there are words, I
must say them until they find me, until they say me[/i] (The Unnamable)
Interesting thought experiment to try this at home: Observe the thoughts that are yours "in production". Consider: are we being ventriloquized by history? Where is the generative source?
I am my brother's keeper.
You can use your radical freedom to pop in and out of identities. It's all tricky because you shouldn't try to lie to yourself. This kind of freedom isn't about fiction, if you know what I mean.
But you'll frequently find people trying to control you by telling you who you are. You have a choice in whether you accept their suggestions. Sometimes they'll offer love or protection to induce your agreement, or threaten you subtly for refusing.
Hmm, that sounds like blame to me, attributing behavior that disappoints or puzzles you to the other’s disordered thinking rather than to your challenges in making sense of their motives.
Assuming that something is the cause of thoughts, and that that something is therefor responsible for them, it goes to follow that each of us are responsible for our thoughts. One's thoughts come from nowhere else; they begin and end nowhere else; they are controlled by nothing else. Even the seemingly arbitrary activities, like the manifestation of thoughts, are wholly controlled by and under the direction of this same being.
‘Control’, ‘under the direction’, ‘cause’. Not sure if any of these terms get at the new ways psychologists
are thinking about human agency. Perhaps if we substitute ‘reciprocal causality’ and brain body-environment loops for simple one way control and direction we can get closer to what thinking and willing consists in.
It would seem to me your proposed terms suggest a dualism of some sort, which is perhaps the problem to begin with. I would argue that repurposing dualism under more modern terms would only confuse the issue further.
Any concpet of will that associates it with control and cause is inherently dualistic in the sense of separating subject from world. To transcend this dualism you have to find a way to see subject and objective world as inextricably intangled , such that interaction is central , and subject and object are only the poles of each interaction. There is no constituted subject who wills autonomously , but only the subjective aspect of subject-world interaction.
But then we look and find out that there is no dualism, that the subject is also the object, and seek other ways to explain it.
Are you an advocate of free will then?
What is the killing floor? Is it the point of thought leading to physical action?
Lots of people have repetitive thoughts and these are the ones I and others are least likely to act on. (See obsessional compulsive disorder)
I am far more likely to act on spontaneous thoughts than pondering.
Do you think with your Kidneys?
We have numerous cells and organs in our bodies are you suggesting we are just our brains?
Is there a specific region of the brain you identify with a self?
Are any of the brains activities conscious if so how?
You seem to be assuming that conscious is inextricably linked to some brain actives of which no reliable correlates have been found.
Who is "I" is it some region in your brain? Is it your whole body?
No "I" region or explanation has been located in the brain.
I don't know what "I" or the self is but I am asking what it's explanatory power is in explaining behaviour, actions, thought or reason etc.
If we are just our brains then they are material objects controlled by laws of nature/physics/biology.
I can't take credit for any of my actions.
Consciousness is a production of the same, complex, sophisticated, multi-structural system that produces thought. Your brain and you and your thoughts and your creativity and your memorys and your quirks and all the ways that your brain manifests your will are the exact same, singular identity: You.
Quoting Andrew4Handel
Certainly didn't mean to suggest that. We are everything between scalp and toe nails, all connected to the brain. l
The existence of a 'self', the brain, consciousness, etc. are all very hard problems. As far as I know, no one has solved these difficult questions.
Quoting Andrew4Handel
No, but my bladder operates an alarm clock. There is the alimentary nervous system that operates the gut. The ANS has something to say about how we feel, and even how we think (see the various studies of the microbiome).
Quoting Andrew4Handel
Right, nobody knows where the self or consciousness is located, if it is located anywhere. Son of a bitch. My guess is that "self' is emergent, arising from activities of the brain that are not, oddly enough, conscious. However the brain does it, the brain does a great job of faking our consciousness, and sense of a conscious self if they don't actually exit.
I recently read a description of how we know we have relieved our sense of thirst. There is a small set of vessels in the liver that receive blood from the upper end of the intestines. When we feel thirsty, these vessels signal thirst, and we drink water. The water is absorbed in the stomach and intestines. The blood flowing from the small intestine provides the vessels in a specific location in the liver with a sample of blood, from which these vessels can determine whether we have drunk enough water, or not. If we have, the vessels signal satiety,
This is a very recent discovery. Various locations and mechanisms have been suspected as the measuring point. Now we know. I suppose these vessels send a message to the brain, "Enough with the water, already!" when we have swallowed enough.
I would have thought the brain detected thirst and its satisfaction, but no. The brain gets a memo.
Quoting Bitter Crank
That spongy 2-halved blob in our skulls does rather seem to be a material object, and it seems to exist within the sphere of reality controlled by nature, physics, biology, doesn't it???
So no free will, then? Can we tell whether we have complete free will?. Can we tell whether we are entirely determined by physics and chemistry? I don't know how we could perceive such a pervasive determinism either way.
Personally, I think people should stop worrying about free will. Endlessly ruminating about free will doesn't get us anywhere.
Much more an "advocate of" free action than "[s]free[/s] will", I'm a compatibilist.
Man, that was a weird post. Not really relevant with the topic either .Since it would fit better to an discussion about responsibility in general, I think. Surprised since your posts are always to the point and your opinion interesting.
I was reading it all that stuff for responsibility and thinking one after another "okay, so about thoughts?.. Ok, and thoughts?.. Hmm okkkk man tell me about what you think about thoughts responsibility?? Are we or not responsible for them?Just tell me!" and at the end you left me with my dick in my hand.You are definitely responsible for that.. Hahaha
.
I hoped to provoke folks to consider all sorts of situations where we commonly talk about responsibility. The question itself is a bit pants really, though, as though one would only be responsible for things one could totally be in control of, which is nothing at all. It is fairly obvious that one is socialised and indoctrinated and educated in ways one has no control over. but one is still responsible for what one does with the fascistic fundamentalist bullshit one is immersed in from birth - who else is going to deal with it?
Well yeah, but there are things that we are totally responsible for. Many others not.Our words and actions are some of them, but thoughts aren't.
You mention ".. then someone would be responsible to whatever totally be in control of".Well no. Even if he has "some" control in anything (not necessarily totally at all) then he is also "some" responsible for that .How big is that "some control" decides also how big his part of responsibility would be.
But with thoughts there isn't that "some" even. You have totally no control at all over their generation. They are "enforced" to you from your unconscious mind.
To filter them, ignore them, judge them and so on via your consciousness mind, then yes you are responsible for that. As to lead in your words and actions.
But for their birth or for their content, well no I don't think anyone should be held responsible for that. Despite how crazy or sinful might be. No one should be considered responsible for anything that has totally none control over it. It is unfair, imo at least.
Does anybody else think that's weird?
Are your words and actions not the expression of your thoughts? Mine are. That was my first post, that i am responsible for their expression and non-expression in the same way that I am responsible for my children. Thoughts are like children, and need to be guided and looked after and occasionally restrained from doing foolish, dangerous, or hurtful things.
Every awareness in the world is responsible for the world it is aware of. Here is a challenge; what is your response?
Yeah of course they are. But I think the actual question of the thread was about thoughts on their own and their content.Not what we do with them. But if we are responsible for what comes into our mind.About what we do with them of course we are responsible for.
Quoting unenlightened
I m not sure I got this.I guess it's a rhetorical question.
I express a thought as follows: "Every awareness in the world is responsible for the world it is aware of."
You become aware of it, and you respond. ( you could have responded by ignoring it, that is often a good response) You express vague interest and puzzlement. Either way, in your response or ignoring, you become (somewhat) responsible for what follows, ie this response to you. Which means, as should have been obvious from the beginning, that in communication, we become responsible for each other's thoughts.
Likewise, if you become aware that your neighbour is beating his wife, you are responsible for for letting it continue or doing something about it. This is simply what awareness is for; responding to the world responsibly - which is to say, with the intention to make the world better.
Thus philosophy is the very queen of professions; for there is no better way of making the world better than by increasing awareness.
Ok now I got what you mean. But I m not so sure about that part
Quoting unenlightened
I m responsible for what I say and do, not about what others think. If for example express a simple opinion and someone gets offended cause he is idiot, lunatic or his mind is fucked up in general am I responsible for that? Can I predict or control anyone's thoughts while I communicate with them?
Quoting unenlightened
What if someone doesn't have the intention to make the world a better place? He doesn't harm anyone but just mind his own business not giving a fuck about improving the world? Can you blame him for not doing that?
Personally I don't think I could blame him. At the end can we expect from anyone to be a "hero" and save the world? Or care about it? What I do demand from everyone though, is not to harm others with their attitude and cause problems to others lives intentionally. That I demand it,but caring to make world a better place? Hmm..it would be really good if he did but not bad either If he didn't, imo at least.
[quote=Gorgias]
1. Nothing exists;
2. Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it;
and
3. Even if something can be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others.
4. Even if it can be communicated, it cannot be understood.[/quote]
:fire:
Well if you are not responsible for your upbringing, your thoughts, and therefore what you do and say are influenced by others as parents teachers media moguls, priests politicians. I don't see how one can maintain that we do not influence each other's thinking by our speech and other actions, in which case we are partially responsible for each other's thoughts. I call you an idiot, and I am responsible for what happens next, which is you having an angry thought and maybe saying something unpleasant back to me, or kicking the cat, or whatever. and then folks will read it and they too will be influenced to some extent. "No man is an island ..."
We do influence others by our actions and words. I don't object on that. But the crucial word here I think is "partially". We can never be sure what others will think on their own head by our actions or words and we can't always be held responsible for that.
For example in cases like that
Quoting unenlightened
Yeah it's crystal clear that I m responsible for calling you that way and what follows next. But not all cases are like that. There are many many grey zones where things aren't that clear.
For example I tell you "I like the way your girlfriend dresses" and then your mind goes "oh so he has a crush on my girl?! Oh damn that mother fucker and he was supposed to be my friend. Fuck off I will teach him a lesson". Am I responsible for that other person's complex that leaded into his thoughts and possible actions? It's not always clear the line of responsibility I should take for others thoughts and actions.
We know what systems of the body and regions of the brain consciousness is not inextricably linked to by process of elimination. When we use metabolic neural activity to measure such things we find that if , for instance , only the cerebellum is highly active there is no report of consciousness by the subject. The same is true when we isolate many other brain regions. So what areas of the brain are correlated with waking experience?
“ One of the central questions in neuroscience is clarifying where in the brain consciousness, which is the ability to experience internal and external sensations, arises. In the journal Neuron, researchers report that a specific area in the brain, the central lateral thalamus, appears to play a key role. In monkeys under anesthesia, stimulating this area was enough to wake the animals and elicit normal waking behaviors.
Previous studies, including EEG and fMRI studies in humans, had suggested that certain areas of the brain, including the parietal cortex and the thalamus, appear to be involved in consciousness.“
Well you weren't to know I am the paranoid suspicious controlling type. :rage: This is kind of close to blaming the victim and I certainly don't want to even hint at going there, even if you did know what I'm like. Fortunately there is a big difference between being responsible and being to blame. The paramedic is responsible for keeping folks alive until the doctor arrives, but she is not necessarily to blame for deaths in her care, unless she made a serious blunder.
Now you know my foibles though, you would be well advised to reassure me that your comment was just a queer eye'd sartorial appreciation, or some such.
Quoting unenlightened
If the root of responsibility is the response, that is , our moment to moment interactions with others and the moment to moment changes in our thinking , willing and feeling, then to understand responsibility requires a model of the nature and organization of thinking, willing and feeling.
The moral question of personal responsibility thus rests on our understanding of the nature of agency and philosophies of the self, the ‘I’.
Beyond the question of free will vs determinism are all sorts of contemporary issues concerning what sort of causative model describes cognition and affect.
For instance, how are we responsible for other’s thoughts? It depends on whether you are a behaviorist, classical cognitivist , phenomenologist or postmodern social constructionist. Each of these approaches gives us a different answer. Within cognitive
science there are differing views of the self and our ability to recognize other minds.
My preference is the phenomenological perspective, which rejects the model
of objective causation and thus the idea that our thinking
is socially and affectively conditioned in a causative way , and that brainwashing is a thing.
Phenomenology instead argues that there is a thematic unity and intimate self-belonging i. our thinking and feeling from moment to moment. We never simply introject meanings and values from the culture , but instead interpret according to our interpretive schemes.
Well I m not sure what you are asking me here to reassure you about. That you aren't blaming the victim? If that's what you ask me, we'll then no you don't and I never got this meaning about your previous post either. Or are you talking about that supposing "paranoid guy" that would confuse my opinion as a crush on his girl??
In any case, my example was one of many cases as to demonstrate that you can't always be responsible for what others will think and do about you words and actions. Just to point out that there are many grey zones.
At the end we can't be inside anyone's head and predict all the outcomes that our words and actions will bring to him.
Well I am saying you can always be responsible for whatever you are aware of but that does not mean you are to blame for it.
Thus I am aware that my prime minister, Boris Johnson, is incapable of telling the truth, and I therefore respond to what he says as information about his fantasy of what he wishes folk to think is true. This means I am in effect ungoverned. This is the shit I have to deal with in my life; it is my responsibility.
Quoting dimosthenis9
We can't predict everything but we can often predict some things. Whereof one is unaware, thereof one is not responsible.
Quoting Joshs
You are telling me this, therefore you are to some extent responsible for what I make of it. I cannot see how my or your general psychological/philosophical 'ism changes the fact?
Quoting unenlightened
Sounds fair.
our thoughts are ultimately a string of narrative spewing from our brain
so we ultimately are our thoughts, there is no self outside of those thoughts
it's definitely a rabbit hole that erodes some fundamental concepts that societal structures depend on, like self, free will, responsibility...
"I" try not to think about it too much